was: Re: WANTED: users of Right-To-Left languages who want proper support in LyX 1.5
Separating this into different issues, it's getting long... Miki Dovrat wrote: 3. If I have a Hebrew paragraph with an English word like ? English ? ? and I type continuously, the spaces are Hebrew. Now if I try to continue the Hebrew to the right of the English word, but after the Hebrew space, as to continue typing, I can't: If I am in English mode and I press F12 (bound to language hebrew), the cursor jumps to the left of the English word. If I was already in hebrew (if the cursor was resting on a hebrew word before and then I moved it to this position with the mouse), then it's ok. This is correct. If you move to the right of the english through the english, then at the end you are still considered to be in English, at the end of the english; so switching to hebrew should move you to the left of the english. You can do what you want by moving to the beginning of the english, and then move back one more, that'll bring you to the space before the english; then if you move one Left, you'll be after the space, but still in hebrew. Typing in hebrew will then work as you want it to. What you say is correct, and I have found that out, but it is not intuitive and takes learning lyx's behavior. Also, when you just land there with the mouse, you have the same problem. Can you think of a sane way to solve this? What do you want LyX to do: to say that if you've been typing in english and then switch the language to hebrew, that it should jump back to before the english, and continue inserting the hebrew there? 'cause I think that's what would be necessary to do what you want in this case --- but then just plain typing in would be a real pain: you type some hebrew, want to insert a word in english so you switch to english, type the word, then switch back to hebrew (you want to continue typing --- after the english word, of course) and find yourself before the english word! I don't see any way out. And BTW, I'm not sure --- but I don't think that visual mode will solve this, either... I would like lyx to be visual, and I think it will solve this problem, since the cursor will STAY PUT in the location it is in without jumping anywhere. That will work when moving, but not when typing: when you type in hebrew, and then switch to english, and then back to hebrew --- where do you want the hebrew to continue: to the left or to the right of the english? I want it to continue on the left: usually I type in logical order, not first all the hebrew and then go back and insert the english... In latex, you will have \L's and \R's all over the place, and you can clean that up later - maybe when saving, maybe when leaving the row. I don't know enough about what lyx does (I wanted to get into it but I lack the time, maybe in the future...) To sum up, I would like lyx, when it is inside a \L (English), to switch automatically to English I believe it does this... , unless the user explicitly changes it with F12 (\language hebrew), the cursor will NOT MOVE, and the text will be added where it was, whether it was English or Hebrew. Again, this doesn't make sense when typing. It means after every insertion of an english word, you'll have to move the cursor before continuing to type in hebrew...
Re: was: Re: WANTED: users of Right-To-Left languages who want proper support in LyX 1.5
Dov Feldstern wrote: , unless the user explicitly changes it with F12 (\language hebrew), the cursor will NOT MOVE, and the text will be added where it was, whether it was English or Hebrew. Again, this doesn't make sense when typing. It means after every insertion of an english word, you'll have to move the cursor before continuing to type in hebrew... No, in Visual mode, when LyX detect an RTL characters the insertion should happen at the right place. IOW, the jumping will happen at _writing_ time not at cursor navigation time like in so-called 'logical mode'. IMHO of course :-) Abdel.
Re: was: Re: WANTED: users of Right-To-Left languages who want proper support in LyX 1.5
I was going to say, let the cursor always stay where it is, and the user will learn to press END (end of line) to move it to continue typing. It is logical, (not in the logical direction sense), expected and easily adapted to by the user, as there are no surprises there. Abdel's idea is even better. I second it. When writing, lyx will assume you want to jump to the end of line, but when editing, it will assume you don't!! Miki Abdelrazak Younes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Dov Feldstern wrote: , unless the user explicitly changes it with F12 (\language hebrew), the cursor will NOT MOVE, and the text will be added where it was, whether it was English or Hebrew. Again, this doesn't make sense when typing. It means after every insertion of an english word, you'll have to move the cursor before continuing to type in hebrew... No, in Visual mode, when LyX detect an RTL characters the insertion should happen at the right place. IOW, the jumping will happen at _writing_ time not at cursor navigation time like in so-called 'logical mode'. IMHO of course :-) Abdel.
Re: was: Re: WANTED: users of Right-To-Left languages who want proper support in LyX 1.5
Miki Dovrat wrote: I was going to say, let the cursor always stay where it is, and the user will learn to press END (end of line) to move it to continue typing. It is logical, (not in the logical direction sense), expected and easily adapted to by the user, as there are no surprises there. It doesn't seem logical at all to me, though I guess I user could get used to it. But I'm glad you've dropped this idea... ;) Abdel's idea is even better. I second it. When writing, lyx will assume you want to jump to the end of line, but when editing, it will assume you don't!! How does one differentiate between writing and editing? By whether I'm at the end of a paragraph or not? This is what (I think) I said somewhere in this thread: in order to get the behavior to be more intuitive, you have to start using heuristics which try to figure out what did the user mean this time?. And the nature of heuristics is that they are sometimes right, sometimes wrong; and they certainly make the code more complicated. So yes, it's a possibility, but we should consider carefully if the heuristics are correct, and whether we want to implement them in each case... Miki Abdelrazak Younes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Dov Feldstern wrote: , unless the user explicitly changes it with F12 (\language hebrew), the cursor will NOT MOVE, and the text will be added where it was, whether it was English or Hebrew. Again, this doesn't make sense when typing. It means after every insertion of an english word, you'll have to move the cursor before continuing to type in hebrew... No, in Visual mode, when LyX detect an RTL characters the insertion should happen at the right place. IOW, the jumping will happen at _writing_ time not at cursor navigation time like in so-called 'logical mode'. IMHO of course :-) Abdel.
Re: was: Re: WANTED: users of Right-To-Left languages who want proper support in LyX 1.5
Dov Feldstern wrote: Miki Dovrat wrote: I was going to say, let the cursor always stay where it is, and the user will learn to press END (end of line) to move it to continue typing. It is logical, (not in the logical direction sense), expected and easily adapted to by the user, as there are no surprises there. It doesn't seem logical at all to me, though I guess I user could get used to it. But I'm glad you've dropped this idea... ;) Abdel's idea is even better. I second it. When writing, lyx will assume you want to jump to the end of line, but when editing, it will assume you don't!! How does one differentiate between writing and editing? By whether I'm at the end of a paragraph or not? This is what (I think) I said somewhere in this thread: in order to get the behavior to be more intuitive, you have to start using heuristics which try to figure out what did the user mean this time?. And the nature of heuristics is that they are sometimes right, sometimes wrong; and they certainly make the code more complicated. So yes, it's a possibility, but we should consider carefully if the heuristics are correct, and whether we want to implement them in each case... Also, heuristics make the application behave differently in different situations (that's there purpose!) --- which means that the application is less predictable unless the user exactly understands how the heuristic works... Therefore, I would try to stay away from heuristics if possible, unless they are absolutely intuitive (and the heuristic that I provided above, I think, is not so intuitive). And, the fact is, I think that in this specific case, LyX's behavior is perfectly logical and intuitive, and almost always what I want it to be. If you think otherwise, please explain again exactly what the specific situation is, how you got to that situation, and what you think LyX *should* do in that case...
Re: was: Re: WANTED: users of Right-To-Left languages who want proper support in LyX 1.5
Dov Feldstern wrote: Dov Feldstern wrote: Miki Dovrat wrote: I was going to say, let the cursor always stay where it is, and the user will learn to press END (end of line) to move it to continue typing. It is logical, (not in the logical direction sense), expected and easily adapted to by the user, as there are no surprises there. It doesn't seem logical at all to me, though I guess I user could get used to it. But I'm glad you've dropped this idea... ;) Abdel's idea is even better. I second it. When writing, lyx will assume you want to jump to the end of line, but when editing, it will assume you don't!! How does one differentiate between writing and editing? By whether I'm at the end of a paragraph or not? This is what (I think) I said somewhere in this thread: in order to get the behavior to be more intuitive, you have to start using heuristics which try to figure out what did the user mean this time?. And the nature of heuristics is that they are sometimes right, sometimes wrong; and they certainly make the code more complicated. So yes, it's a possibility, but we should consider carefully if the heuristics are correct, and whether we want to implement them in each case... Also, heuristics make the application behave differently in different situations (that's there purpose!) --- which means that the application is less predictable unless the user exactly understands how the heuristic works... Therefore, I would try to stay away from heuristics if possible, unless they are absolutely intuitive (and the heuristic that I provided above, I think, is not so intuitive). And, the fact is, I think that in this specific case, LyX's behavior is perfectly logical and intuitive, and almost always what I want it to be. If you think otherwise, please explain again exactly what the specific situation is, how you got to that situation, and what you think LyX *should* do in that case... I don't agree with you that lyx's behavior is perfectly logical and intuitive on this issue. You have open office by your side, as it behaves in the same (annoying) way (logical). I see your point about heuristics being bad, I agree with that. We have two conflicting demands here - You seem to like continuous typing and expect that F12 pressed (the second time) will jump to the end of the foreign text so that you can continue typing. That is a good expectation. What I expect is that when I see the cursor in one position, the characters I type will actually get inserted IN THAT POSITION. You can get used to pressing END (it seems that I somehow learned to do that using Word), and I can get used to going back one space and continuing from there, but which is more intuitive and less confusing? I think the confusing part is when the cursor jumps. You seem to already know that the cursor will jump and it doesn't bother you. It is very annoying to me that I have to understand about borders between RTL and LTR and to know that lyx isn't going to continue where the cursor is. We need a mediator to rule, but it seems that you will be writing the code, so you have an advantage :) Miki
Re: was: Re: WANTED: users of Right-To-Left languages who want proper support in LyX 1.5
Dov Feldstern wrote: Dov Feldstern wrote: Miki Dovrat wrote: I was going to say, let the cursor always stay where it is, and the user will learn to press END (end of line) to move it to continue typing. It is logical, (not in the logical direction sense), expected and easily adapted to by the user, as there are no surprises there. It doesn't seem logical at all to me, though I guess I user could get used to it. But I'm glad you've dropped this idea... ;) Abdel's idea is even better. I second it. When writing, lyx will assume you want to jump to the end of line, but when editing, it will assume you don't!! How does one differentiate between writing and editing? By whether I'm at the end of a paragraph or not? This is what (I think) I said somewhere in this thread: in order to get the behavior to be more intuitive, you have to start using heuristics which try to figure out what did the user mean this time?. And the nature of heuristics is that they are sometimes right, sometimes wrong; and they certainly make the code more complicated. So yes, it's a possibility, but we should consider carefully if the heuristics are correct, and whether we want to implement them in each case... Also, heuristics make the application behave differently in different situations (that's there purpose!) --- which means that the application is less predictable unless the user exactly understands how the heuristic works... Therefore, I would try to stay away from heuristics if possible, unless they are absolutely intuitive (and the heuristic that I provided above, I think, is not so intuitive). And, the fact is, I think that in this specific case, LyX's behavior is perfectly logical and intuitive, and almost always what I want it to be. If you think otherwise, please explain again exactly what the specific situation is, how you got to that situation, and what you think LyX *should* do in that case... Dov, did you direct me to here in response to bug 3011? Well, anyway, your fix for 3011 is working. I have version 18791. Miki I have found something very strange!!! a feature? Try this: I changed my document to Hebrew, so that English gets marked foreign. Type a line (starting with RTL) such as LTR LTR LTR RTL RTL RTL Now, in the border between LTR and RTL, to the LEFT of the space, it would seem that this is one cursor position, but with the mouse I can actually hit TWO points there (still to the left of the space but to the right of the English writing): one position continues the Hebrew, and the other position continues the English (the cursor is underlined). Now, it would seem that IF the arrow keys could move through these two states (in our future visual mode, where the cursor will move without jumping to the beginning of English, but through the end of it) it would solve our conflict, as the cursor will tell us what is going to happen while editing. When you come from RTL, it will first be RTL, another - will move you to LTR (the end of it), and other - will move you backwards in the English, and while typing you would keep moving to the end of the line when pressing F12 for continuous typing like you want (which makes more sense to me now). That is OK by me, and it will actually be very good I think. What do you think? Currently, the arrow keys miss the continue English writing position since the behavior is logical, and the cursor goes directly to (ONE AFTER) the beginning of the English in logical mode. I still don't understand why it jumps to one after the beginning of the foreign part. It could have easily have jumped to the beginning of English. Miki
was: Re: WANTED: users of Right-To-Left languages who want proper support in LyX 1.5
Separating this into different issues, it's getting long... Miki Dovrat wrote: 3. If I have a Hebrew paragraph with an English word like ? English ? ? and I type continuously, the spaces are Hebrew. Now if I try to continue the Hebrew to the right of the English word, but after the Hebrew space, as to continue typing, I can't: If I am in English mode and I press F12 (bound to language hebrew), the cursor jumps to the left of the English word. If I was already in hebrew (if the cursor was resting on a hebrew word before and then I moved it to this position with the mouse), then it's ok. This is correct. If you move to the right of the english through the english, then at the end you are still considered to be in English, at the end of the english; so switching to hebrew should move you to the left of the english. You can do what you want by moving to the beginning of the english, and then move back one more, that'll bring you to the space before the english; then if you move one Left, you'll be after the space, but still in hebrew. Typing in hebrew will then work as you want it to. What you say is correct, and I have found that out, but it is not intuitive and takes "learning" lyx's behavior. Also, when you just land there with the mouse, you have the same "problem". Can you think of a sane way to solve this? What do you want LyX to do: to say that if you've been typing in english and then switch the language to hebrew, that it should jump back to before the english, and continue inserting the hebrew there? 'cause I think that's what would be necessary to do what you want in this case --- but then just plain typing in would be a real pain: you type some hebrew, want to insert a word in english so you switch to english, type the word, then switch back to hebrew (you want to continue typing --- after the english word, of course) and find yourself before the english word! I don't see any way out. And BTW, I'm not sure --- but I don't think that visual mode will solve this, either... I would like lyx to be visual, and I think it will solve this problem, since the cursor will STAY PUT in the location it is in without jumping anywhere. That will work when moving, but not when typing: when you type in hebrew, and then switch to english, and then back to hebrew --- where do you want the hebrew to continue: to the left or to the right of the english? I want it to continue on the left: usually I type in logical order, not first all the hebrew and then go back and insert the english... In latex, you will have \L's and \R's all over the place, and you can clean that up "later" - maybe when saving, maybe when leaving the row. I don't know enough about what lyx does (I wanted to get into it but I lack the time, maybe in the future...) To sum up, I would like lyx, when it is inside a \L (English), to switch automatically to English I believe it does this... , unless the user explicitly changes it with F12 (\language hebrew), the cursor will NOT MOVE, and the text will be added where it was, whether it was English or Hebrew. Again, this doesn't make sense when typing. It means after every insertion of an english word, you'll have to move the cursor before continuing to type in hebrew...
Re: was: Re: WANTED: users of Right-To-Left languages who want proper support in LyX 1.5
Dov Feldstern wrote: , unless the user explicitly changes it with F12 (\language hebrew), the cursor will NOT MOVE, and the text will be added where it was, whether it was English or Hebrew. Again, this doesn't make sense when typing. It means after every insertion of an english word, you'll have to move the cursor before continuing to type in hebrew... No, in Visual mode, when LyX detect an RTL characters the insertion should happen at the right place. IOW, the jumping will happen at _writing_ time not at cursor navigation time like in so-called 'logical mode'. IMHO of course :-) Abdel.
Re: was: Re: WANTED: users of Right-To-Left languages who want proper support in LyX 1.5
I was going to say, let the cursor always stay where it is, and the user will learn to press END (end of line) to move it to continue typing. It is logical, (not in the "logical" direction sense), expected and easily adapted to by the user, as there are no surprises there. Abdel's idea is even better. I second it. When writing, lyx will assume you want to jump to the end of line, but when editing, it will assume you don't!! Miki "Abdelrazak Younes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Dov Feldstern wrote: > >>> , unless the user explicitly changes it with F12 (\language hebrew), >>> the cursor will NOT MOVE, and the text will be added where it was, >>> whether it was English or Hebrew. >> >> Again, this doesn't make sense when typing. It means after every >> insertion of an english word, you'll have to move the cursor before >> continuing to type in hebrew... > > No, in Visual mode, when LyX detect an RTL characters the insertion should > happen at the right place. IOW, the jumping will happen at _writing_ time > not at cursor navigation time like in so-called 'logical mode'. IMHO of > course :-) > > Abdel. > >
Re: was: Re: WANTED: users of Right-To-Left languages who want proper support in LyX 1.5
Miki Dovrat wrote: I was going to say, let the cursor always stay where it is, and the user will learn to press END (end of line) to move it to continue typing. It is logical, (not in the "logical" direction sense), expected and easily adapted to by the user, as there are no surprises there. It doesn't seem logical at all to me, though I guess I user could get used to it. But I'm glad you've dropped this idea... ;) Abdel's idea is even better. I second it. When writing, lyx will assume you want to jump to the end of line, but when editing, it will assume you don't!! How does one differentiate between "writing" and "editing"? By whether I'm at the end of a paragraph or not? This is what (I think) I said somewhere in this thread: in order to get the behavior to be more intuitive, you have to start using heuristics which try to figure out "what did the user mean this time?". And the nature of heuristics is that they are sometimes right, sometimes wrong; and they certainly make the code more complicated. So yes, it's a possibility, but we should consider carefully if the heuristics are correct, and whether we want to implement them in each case... Miki "Abdelrazak Younes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Dov Feldstern wrote: , unless the user explicitly changes it with F12 (\language hebrew), the cursor will NOT MOVE, and the text will be added where it was, whether it was English or Hebrew. Again, this doesn't make sense when typing. It means after every insertion of an english word, you'll have to move the cursor before continuing to type in hebrew... No, in Visual mode, when LyX detect an RTL characters the insertion should happen at the right place. IOW, the jumping will happen at _writing_ time not at cursor navigation time like in so-called 'logical mode'. IMHO of course :-) Abdel.
Re: was: Re: WANTED: users of Right-To-Left languages who want proper support in LyX 1.5
Dov Feldstern wrote: Miki Dovrat wrote: I was going to say, let the cursor always stay where it is, and the user will learn to press END (end of line) to move it to continue typing. It is logical, (not in the "logical" direction sense), expected and easily adapted to by the user, as there are no surprises there. It doesn't seem logical at all to me, though I guess I user could get used to it. But I'm glad you've dropped this idea... ;) Abdel's idea is even better. I second it. When writing, lyx will assume you want to jump to the end of line, but when editing, it will assume you don't!! How does one differentiate between "writing" and "editing"? By whether I'm at the end of a paragraph or not? This is what (I think) I said somewhere in this thread: in order to get the behavior to be more intuitive, you have to start using heuristics which try to figure out "what did the user mean this time?". And the nature of heuristics is that they are sometimes right, sometimes wrong; and they certainly make the code more complicated. So yes, it's a possibility, but we should consider carefully if the heuristics are correct, and whether we want to implement them in each case... Also, heuristics make the application behave differently in different situations (that's there purpose!) --- which means that the application is less predictable unless the user exactly understands how the heuristic works... Therefore, I would try to stay away from heuristics if possible, unless they are absolutely intuitive (and the heuristic that I provided above, I think, is not so intuitive). And, the fact is, I think that in this specific case, LyX's behavior is perfectly logical and intuitive, and almost always what I want it to be. If you think otherwise, please explain again exactly what the specific situation is, how you got to that situation, and what you think LyX *should* do in that case...
Re: was: Re: WANTED: users of Right-To-Left languages who want proper support in LyX 1.5
Dov Feldstern wrote: Dov Feldstern wrote: Miki Dovrat wrote: I was going to say, let the cursor always stay where it is, and the user will learn to press END (end of line) to move it to continue typing. It is logical, (not in the "logical" direction sense), expected and easily adapted to by the user, as there are no surprises there. It doesn't seem logical at all to me, though I guess I user could get used to it. But I'm glad you've dropped this idea... ;) Abdel's idea is even better. I second it. When writing, lyx will assume you want to jump to the end of line, but when editing, it will assume you don't!! How does one differentiate between "writing" and "editing"? By whether I'm at the end of a paragraph or not? This is what (I think) I said somewhere in this thread: in order to get the behavior to be more intuitive, you have to start using heuristics which try to figure out "what did the user mean this time?". And the nature of heuristics is that they are sometimes right, sometimes wrong; and they certainly make the code more complicated. So yes, it's a possibility, but we should consider carefully if the heuristics are correct, and whether we want to implement them in each case... Also, heuristics make the application behave differently in different situations (that's there purpose!) --- which means that the application is less predictable unless the user exactly understands how the heuristic works... Therefore, I would try to stay away from heuristics if possible, unless they are absolutely intuitive (and the heuristic that I provided above, I think, is not so intuitive). And, the fact is, I think that in this specific case, LyX's behavior is perfectly logical and intuitive, and almost always what I want it to be. If you think otherwise, please explain again exactly what the specific situation is, how you got to that situation, and what you think LyX *should* do in that case... I don't agree with you that lyx's behavior is perfectly logical and intuitive on this issue. You have open office by your side, as it behaves in the same (annoying) way (logical). I see your point about heuristics being bad, I agree with that. We have two conflicting "demands" here - You seem to like continuous typing and expect that F12 pressed (the second time) will jump to the end of the foreign text so that you can continue typing. That is a good expectation. What I expect is that when I see the cursor in one position, the characters I type will actually get inserted IN THAT POSITION. You can get used to pressing END (it seems that I somehow learned to do that using Word), and I can get used to going back one space and continuing from there, but which is more intuitive and less confusing? I think the confusing part is when the cursor jumps. You seem to already know that the cursor will jump and it doesn't bother you. It is very annoying to me that I have to understand about borders between RTL and LTR and to know that lyx isn't going to continue where the cursor is. We need a mediator to rule, but it seems that you will be writing the code, so you have an advantage :) Miki
Re: was: Re: WANTED: users of Right-To-Left languages who want proper support in LyX 1.5
Dov Feldstern wrote: Dov Feldstern wrote: Miki Dovrat wrote: I was going to say, let the cursor always stay where it is, and the user will learn to press END (end of line) to move it to continue typing. It is logical, (not in the "logical" direction sense), expected and easily adapted to by the user, as there are no surprises there. It doesn't seem logical at all to me, though I guess I user could get used to it. But I'm glad you've dropped this idea... ;) Abdel's idea is even better. I second it. When writing, lyx will assume you want to jump to the end of line, but when editing, it will assume you don't!! How does one differentiate between "writing" and "editing"? By whether I'm at the end of a paragraph or not? This is what (I think) I said somewhere in this thread: in order to get the behavior to be more intuitive, you have to start using heuristics which try to figure out "what did the user mean this time?". And the nature of heuristics is that they are sometimes right, sometimes wrong; and they certainly make the code more complicated. So yes, it's a possibility, but we should consider carefully if the heuristics are correct, and whether we want to implement them in each case... Also, heuristics make the application behave differently in different situations (that's there purpose!) --- which means that the application is less predictable unless the user exactly understands how the heuristic works... Therefore, I would try to stay away from heuristics if possible, unless they are absolutely intuitive (and the heuristic that I provided above, I think, is not so intuitive). And, the fact is, I think that in this specific case, LyX's behavior is perfectly logical and intuitive, and almost always what I want it to be. If you think otherwise, please explain again exactly what the specific situation is, how you got to that situation, and what you think LyX *should* do in that case... Dov, did you direct me to here in response to bug 3011? Well, anyway, your fix for 3011 is working. I have version 18791. Miki I have found something very strange!!! a feature? Try this: I changed my document to Hebrew, so that English gets marked foreign. Type a line (starting with RTL) such as LTR LTR LTR RTL RTL RTL Now, in the border between LTR and RTL, to the LEFT of the space, it would seem that this is one cursor position, but with the mouse I can actually hit TWO points there (still to the left of the space but to the right of the English writing): one position continues the Hebrew, and the other position continues the English (the cursor is underlined). Now, it would seem that IF the arrow keys could move through these two states (in our future visual mode, where the cursor will move without jumping to the beginning of English, but through the end of it) it would solve our conflict, as the cursor will tell us what is going to happen while editing. When you come from RTL, it will first be RTL, another <- will move you to LTR (the end of it), and other <- will move you backwards in the English, and while typing you would keep moving to the end of the line when pressing F12 for continuous typing like you want (which makes more sense to me now). That is OK by me, and it will actually be very good I think. What do you think? Currently, the arrow keys miss the "continue English writing" position since the behavior is logical, and the cursor goes directly to (ONE AFTER) the beginning of the English in logical mode. I still don't understand why it jumps to one after the beginning of the foreign part. It could have easily have jumped to the beginning of English. Miki
