Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Wolfgang Engelmann]

Am Thursday 26 February 2009 16:56:57 schrieb Wilfried:
 Guenter Milde mi...@users.berlios.de wrote:
  On 2009-02-07, Christian Ridderström wrote:
   On Sat, 7 Feb 2009, Wolfgang Engelmann wrote:
   On Friday 06 February 2009 09:32:12 A B wrote:
  
   perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate
   its merrit to those who care
  
   Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software on
   a CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without installing
   it. I'm not sure it's feasible though.
 
  It is certainly possible with a Linux live system (old Knoppix CDs had
  LyX/LaTeX, later ones removed it due to limited space, maybe it's back on
  a Knoppix DVD...)
 
  But how about trying to get LyX into TeXLive?

 There is already a bootable, self-sustained Linux DVD available with LyX
 integrated:
 http://www.knoppix.org/
 The homepage starts in German, for English click on the British flag.
 One can download either a cdrom iso image or a dvd iso image.
 According to the file packages-dvd.txt, the dvd image contains
 LyX 1.5.3-1 installed, but I haven't tested it yet.

would be nice to have one with LyX 1.6.x. which has so many valuable new 
features! Any chance to produce one?

Wolfgang

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-02-27, Wolfgang Engelmann wrote:
 Am Thursday 26 February 2009 16:56:57 schrieb Wilfried:
 Guenter Milde mi...@users.berlios.de wrote:

 But how about trying to get LyX into TeXLive?

 There is already a bootable, self-sustained Linux DVD available with LyX
 integrated:
 http://www.knoppix.org/
 The homepage starts in German, for English click on the British flag.
 One can download either a cdrom iso image or a dvd iso image.
 According to the file packages-dvd.txt, the dvd image contains
 LyX 1.5.3-1 installed, but I haven't tested it yet.

 would be nice to have one with LyX 1.6.x. which has so many valuable new 
 features! Any chance to produce one?

There are custom Knoppix-based live CD/DVD projects and there is support
for customisation of Knoppix (have a look at their knoppix.org) so this is
feasible. (I propose to wait for 1.6.2 with many critical bugs fixed.)

But my original idea was to get LyX (both Unix and Windows binaries) into
the TeXLive DVD, so that Window users could also try it in their native
OS.

Another idea would be some kind of integration of the LyX installer into
the TeXLive one, so that a user installing from TeXLive is just a click
away from installing LyX.

Volunteers?

Günter

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Wolfgang Engelmann]

Am Thursday 26 February 2009 16:56:57 schrieb Wilfried:
 Guenter Milde mi...@users.berlios.de wrote:
  On 2009-02-07, Christian Ridderström wrote:
   On Sat, 7 Feb 2009, Wolfgang Engelmann wrote:
   On Friday 06 February 2009 09:32:12 A B wrote:
  
   perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate
   its merrit to those who care
  
   Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software on
   a CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without installing
   it. I'm not sure it's feasible though.
 
  It is certainly possible with a Linux live system (old Knoppix CDs had
  LyX/LaTeX, later ones removed it due to limited space, maybe it's back on
  a Knoppix DVD...)
 
  But how about trying to get LyX into TeXLive?

 There is already a bootable, self-sustained Linux DVD available with LyX
 integrated:
 http://www.knoppix.org/
 The homepage starts in German, for English click on the British flag.
 One can download either a cdrom iso image or a dvd iso image.
 According to the file packages-dvd.txt, the dvd image contains
 LyX 1.5.3-1 installed, but I haven't tested it yet.

would be nice to have one with LyX 1.6.x. which has so many valuable new 
features! Any chance to produce one?

Wolfgang

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-02-27, Wolfgang Engelmann wrote:
 Am Thursday 26 February 2009 16:56:57 schrieb Wilfried:
 Guenter Milde mi...@users.berlios.de wrote:

 But how about trying to get LyX into TeXLive?

 There is already a bootable, self-sustained Linux DVD available with LyX
 integrated:
 http://www.knoppix.org/
 The homepage starts in German, for English click on the British flag.
 One can download either a cdrom iso image or a dvd iso image.
 According to the file packages-dvd.txt, the dvd image contains
 LyX 1.5.3-1 installed, but I haven't tested it yet.

 would be nice to have one with LyX 1.6.x. which has so many valuable new 
 features! Any chance to produce one?

There are custom Knoppix-based live CD/DVD projects and there is support
for customisation of Knoppix (have a look at their knoppix.org) so this is
feasible. (I propose to wait for 1.6.2 with many critical bugs fixed.)

But my original idea was to get LyX (both Unix and Windows binaries) into
the TeXLive DVD, so that Window users could also try it in their native
OS.

Another idea would be some kind of integration of the LyX installer into
the TeXLive one, so that a user installing from TeXLive is just a click
away from installing LyX.

Volunteers?

Günter

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Wolfgang Engelmann]

Am Thursday 26 February 2009 16:56:57 schrieb Wilfried:
> Guenter Milde  wrote:
> > On 2009-02-07, Christian Ridderström wrote:
> > > On Sat, 7 Feb 2009, Wolfgang Engelmann wrote:
> > >> On Friday 06 February 2009 09:32:12 A B wrote:
> > >>
> > >> perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate
> > >> its merrit to those who care
> > >
> > > Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software on
> > > a CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without installing
> > > it. I'm not sure it's feasible though.
> >
> > It is certainly possible with a Linux live system (old Knoppix CDs had
> > LyX/LaTeX, later ones removed it due to limited space, maybe it's back on
> > a Knoppix DVD...)
> >
> > But how about trying to get LyX into TeXLive?
>
> There is already a bootable, self-sustained Linux DVD available with LyX
> integrated:
> http://www.knoppix.org/
> The homepage starts in German, for English click on the British flag.
> One can download either a cdrom iso image or a dvd iso image.
> According to the file "packages-dvd.txt", the dvd image contains
> LyX 1.5.3-1 installed, but I haven't tested it yet.

would be nice to have one with LyX 1.6.x. which has so many valuable new 
features! Any chance to produce one?

Wolfgang

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-02-27, Wolfgang Engelmann wrote:
> Am Thursday 26 February 2009 16:56:57 schrieb Wilfried:
>> Guenter Milde  wrote:

>>> But how about trying to get LyX into TeXLive?

>> There is already a bootable, self-sustained Linux DVD available with LyX
>> integrated:
>> http://www.knoppix.org/
>> The homepage starts in German, for English click on the British flag.
>> One can download either a cdrom iso image or a dvd iso image.
>> According to the file "packages-dvd.txt", the dvd image contains
>> LyX 1.5.3-1 installed, but I haven't tested it yet.

> would be nice to have one with LyX 1.6.x. which has so many valuable new 
> features! Any chance to produce one?

There are custom Knoppix-based live CD/DVD projects and there is support
for customisation of Knoppix (have a look at their knoppix.org) so this is
feasible. (I propose to wait for 1.6.2 with many critical bugs fixed.)

But my original idea was to get LyX (both Unix and Windows binaries) into
the TeXLive DVD, so that Window users could also try it in their "native"
OS.

Another idea would be some kind of integration of the LyX installer into
the TeXLive one, so that a user installing from TeXLive is just a click
away from installing LyX.

Volunteers?

Günter

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Wilfried]

Guenter Milde mi...@users.berlios.de wrote:

 On 2009-02-07, Christian Ridderström wrote:
  On Sat, 7 Feb 2009, Wolfgang Engelmann wrote:
  On Friday 06 February 2009 09:32:12 A B wrote:
 
  perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate 
  its merrit to those who care
 
  Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software on 
  a CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without installing it.
  I'm not sure it's feasible though.
 
 It is certainly possible with a Linux live system (old Knoppix CDs had
 LyX/LaTeX, later ones removed it due to limited space, maybe it's back on a
 Knoppix DVD...)
 
 But how about trying to get LyX into TeXLive?

There is already a bootable, self-sustained Linux DVD available with LyX
integrated:
http://www.knoppix.org/
The homepage starts in German, for English click on the British flag.
One can download either a cdrom iso image or a dvd iso image.
According to the file packages-dvd.txt, the dvd image contains 
LyX 1.5.3-1 installed, but I haven't tested it yet.

Regards,

--
Wilfried Hennings

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Wilfried]

Guenter Milde mi...@users.berlios.de wrote:

 On 2009-02-07, Christian Ridderström wrote:
  On Sat, 7 Feb 2009, Wolfgang Engelmann wrote:
  On Friday 06 February 2009 09:32:12 A B wrote:
 
  perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate 
  its merrit to those who care
 
  Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software on 
  a CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without installing it.
  I'm not sure it's feasible though.
 
 It is certainly possible with a Linux live system (old Knoppix CDs had
 LyX/LaTeX, later ones removed it due to limited space, maybe it's back on a
 Knoppix DVD...)
 
 But how about trying to get LyX into TeXLive?

There is already a bootable, self-sustained Linux DVD available with LyX
integrated:
http://www.knoppix.org/
The homepage starts in German, for English click on the British flag.
One can download either a cdrom iso image or a dvd iso image.
According to the file packages-dvd.txt, the dvd image contains 
LyX 1.5.3-1 installed, but I haven't tested it yet.

Regards,

--
Wilfried Hennings

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Wilfried]

Guenter Milde  wrote:

> On 2009-02-07, Christian Ridderström wrote:
> > On Sat, 7 Feb 2009, Wolfgang Engelmann wrote:
> >> On Friday 06 February 2009 09:32:12 A B wrote:
> 
> >> perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate 
> >> its merrit to those who care
> 
> > Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software on 
> > a CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without installing it.
> > I'm not sure it's feasible though.
> 
> It is certainly possible with a Linux live system (old Knoppix CDs had
> LyX/LaTeX, later ones removed it due to limited space, maybe it's back on a
> Knoppix DVD...)
> 
> But how about trying to get LyX into TeXLive?

There is already a bootable, self-sustained Linux DVD available with LyX
integrated:
http://www.knoppix.org/
The homepage starts in German, for English click on the British flag.
One can download either a cdrom iso image or a dvd iso image.
According to the file "packages-dvd.txt", the dvd image contains 
LyX 1.5.3-1 installed, but I haven't tested it yet.

Regards,

--
Wilfried Hennings

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-02-07, Christian Ridderström wrote:
 On Sat, 7 Feb 2009, Wolfgang Engelmann wrote:
 On Friday 06 February 2009 09:32:12 A B wrote:

 perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate 
 its merrit to those who care

 Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software on 
 a CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without installing it.
 I'm not sure it's feasible though.

It is certainly possible with a Linux live system (old Knoppix CDs had
LyX/LaTeX, later ones removed it due to limited space, maybe it's back on a
Knoppix DVD...)

But how about trying to get LyX into TeXLive?

Günter

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-02-07, Christian Ridderström wrote:
 On Sat, 7 Feb 2009, Wolfgang Engelmann wrote:
 On Friday 06 February 2009 09:32:12 A B wrote:

 perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate 
 its merrit to those who care

 Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software on 
 a CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without installing it.
 I'm not sure it's feasible though.

It is certainly possible with a Linux live system (old Knoppix CDs had
LyX/LaTeX, later ones removed it due to limited space, maybe it's back on a
Knoppix DVD...)

But how about trying to get LyX into TeXLive?

Günter

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-02-07, Christian Ridderström wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Feb 2009, Wolfgang Engelmann wrote:
>> On Friday 06 February 2009 09:32:12 A B wrote:

>> perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate 
>> its merrit to those who care

> Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software on 
> a CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without installing it.
> I'm not sure it's feasible though.

It is certainly possible with a Linux live system (old Knoppix CDs had
LyX/LaTeX, later ones removed it due to limited space, maybe it's back on a
Knoppix DVD...)

But how about trying to get LyX into TeXLive?

Günter

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Helge Hafting]

A B wrote:


What is needed is the ability to let LyX users interact with other
people. With good  converters that enable LyX users to take a X-file,
open, edit, and send back a X-file, (where X = word or html or rtf or
openoffice or xml or even MP3 (with lillypond?) ) you can work with
LyX in any  environment. Then others can see how powerful it is and
then show them the pricetag...


There are two big problems here:

1) To define a conversion between word and lyx.
2) To implement, which will be lots of work.


1) is probably worst, because lyx and word has so different feature 
sets. And the expectations will be different too. Some users will want 
to see the same line and page breaks in LyX and word. And they want to 
keep everything else the same too - an identical conversion.
They will be disappointed to learn that this is useless and just won't 
happen. (In theory, latex _can_ place each letter individually on the 
page, in order to mimic a word document. I am not sure an identical 
conversion the other way is possible at all.)


Some will want word-lyx to have LyX lay out the document as nicely as 
possible. That is one of LyX strong points, after all. They will be 
disappointed when their finger-painted headings in several levels 
aren't recognized as such by lyx. They will wonder why the conversion 
won't take their long rows of spaces and actually preserve the sort-of 
alignment they achieved that way.


Some will be be pissed off when Lyx-word conversion exposes word 
weaknesses. The word document might end up with a heading on the last 
line of a page, and similiar. They'll end up blaming it on the 
conversion. But what to do? LyX documents aren't divided into pages 
until printing time, and then such things are handled automatically and 
nicely by latex. LyX doesn't implement page breaking itself.


Word has some tricky features too. Support for lots of fonts, for example.

2) Even if all problems with (1) is resolved somehow, the job will be
huge and therefore it will be hard to find a volunteer for the job. Word 
users don't know lyx enough to do it. LyX experts tend to not consider 
word a serious piece of software, and will normally spend their time 
improving Lyx itself instead.


Helge Hafting

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Helge Hafting]

A B wrote:


What is needed is the ability to let LyX users interact with other
people. With good  converters that enable LyX users to take a X-file,
open, edit, and send back a X-file, (where X = word or html or rtf or
openoffice or xml or even MP3 (with lillypond?) ) you can work with
LyX in any  environment. Then others can see how powerful it is and
then show them the pricetag...


There are two big problems here:

1) To define a conversion between word and lyx.
2) To implement, which will be lots of work.


1) is probably worst, because lyx and word has so different feature 
sets. And the expectations will be different too. Some users will want 
to see the same line and page breaks in LyX and word. And they want to 
keep everything else the same too - an identical conversion.
They will be disappointed to learn that this is useless and just won't 
happen. (In theory, latex _can_ place each letter individually on the 
page, in order to mimic a word document. I am not sure an identical 
conversion the other way is possible at all.)


Some will want word-lyx to have LyX lay out the document as nicely as 
possible. That is one of LyX strong points, after all. They will be 
disappointed when their finger-painted headings in several levels 
aren't recognized as such by lyx. They will wonder why the conversion 
won't take their long rows of spaces and actually preserve the sort-of 
alignment they achieved that way.


Some will be be pissed off when Lyx-word conversion exposes word 
weaknesses. The word document might end up with a heading on the last 
line of a page, and similiar. They'll end up blaming it on the 
conversion. But what to do? LyX documents aren't divided into pages 
until printing time, and then such things are handled automatically and 
nicely by latex. LyX doesn't implement page breaking itself.


Word has some tricky features too. Support for lots of fonts, for example.

2) Even if all problems with (1) is resolved somehow, the job will be
huge and therefore it will be hard to find a volunteer for the job. Word 
users don't know lyx enough to do it. LyX experts tend to not consider 
word a serious piece of software, and will normally spend their time 
improving Lyx itself instead.


Helge Hafting

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Helge Hafting]

A B wrote:


What is needed is the ability to let LyX users interact with other
people. With good  converters that enable LyX users to take a X-file,
open, edit, and send back a X-file, (where X = word or html or rtf or
openoffice or xml or even MP3 (with lillypond?) ) you can work with
LyX in any  environment. Then others can see how powerful it is and
then show them the pricetag...


There are two big problems here:

1) To define a conversion between word and lyx.
2) To implement, which will be lots of work.


1) is probably worst, because lyx and word has so different feature 
sets. And the expectations will be different too. Some users will want 
to see the same line and page breaks in LyX and word. And they want to 
keep everything else the same too - an identical conversion.
They will be disappointed to learn that this is useless and just won't 
happen. (In theory, latex _can_ place each letter individually on the 
page, in order to mimic a word document. I am not sure an identical 
conversion the other way is possible at all.)


Some will want word->lyx to have LyX lay out the document as nicely as 
possible. That is one of LyX strong points, after all. They will be 
disappointed when their "finger-painted" headings in several levels 
aren't recognized as such by lyx. They will wonder why the conversion 
won't take their long rows of spaces and actually preserve the sort-of 
alignment they achieved that way.


Some will be be pissed off when Lyx->word conversion exposes word 
weaknesses. The word document might end up with a heading on the last 
line of a page, and similiar. They'll end up blaming it on the 
conversion. But what to do? LyX documents aren't divided into pages 
until printing time, and then such things are handled automatically and 
nicely by latex. LyX doesn't implement page breaking itself.


Word has some tricky features too. Support for lots of fonts, for example.

2) Even if all problems with (1) is resolved somehow, the job will be
huge and therefore it will be hard to find a volunteer for the job. Word 
users don't know lyx enough to do it. LyX experts tend to not consider 
word a serious piece of software, and will normally spend their time 
improving Lyx itself instead.


Helge Hafting

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Wolfgang Engelmann]

Am Sunday 08 February 2009 10:35:04 schrieb Wolfgang Keller:
   perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to
   demonstrate its merrit to those who care
 
  Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software
  on a CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without
  installing it. I'm not sure it's feasible though.

 I'm using LyX with TeXlive 2008 from a USB stick. I didn't even
 install TeXlive on the stick, just copied it over from the DVD.

 Sincerely,

 Wolfgang

Does TeXlive 2008 contain LyX 1.6.x? Haven't seen it.
another Wolfgang

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Wolfgang Engelmann]

Am Sunday 08 February 2009 10:35:04 schrieb Wolfgang Keller:
   perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to
   demonstrate its merrit to those who care
 
  Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software
  on a CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without
  installing it. I'm not sure it's feasible though.

 I'm using LyX with TeXlive 2008 from a USB stick. I didn't even
 install TeXlive on the stick, just copied it over from the DVD.

 Sincerely,

 Wolfgang

Does TeXlive 2008 contain LyX 1.6.x? Haven't seen it.
another Wolfgang

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Wolfgang Engelmann]

Am Sunday 08 February 2009 10:35:04 schrieb Wolfgang Keller:
> > > perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to
> > > demonstrate its merrit to those who care
> >
> > Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software
> > on a CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without
> > installing it. I'm not sure it's feasible though.
>
> I'm using LyX with TeXlive 2008 from a USB stick. I didn't even
> "install" TeXlive on the stick, just copied it over from the DVD.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Wolfgang

Does TeXlive 2008 contain LyX 1.6.x? Haven't seen it.
another Wolfgang

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Wolfgang Keller]

  perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to
  demonstrate its merrit to those who care
 
 Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software
 on a CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without
 installing it. I'm not sure it's feasible though.

I'm using LyX with TeXlive 2008 from a USB stick. I didn't even
install TeXlive on the stick, just copied it over from the DVD.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Piero Faustini]

Guenter Milde mi...@... writes:

 Document format conversion is lossy by a natural law.

...the Wise know this.

Anyway, @LyxLyght's oppositors: I 

not-LyX-nor-even-LaTeX (i.e. Word) collaborators are of 3 kind:

A. Those who will never use anything different than Word (or OOo), say 50%
B. Those who may try something different, but only if really simple, say the 
greatest part of the remaining people
C. Those who may try LyX if worth trying, i.e. some lonely hero.

IMHO, each kind will need a different strategy. Let's start from the latter.

C. LyX, full stop (with improved project/bundle/version-control features). 
B. LyXLight, i.e. a non-scaring non-LaTeX very-friendly lightweight (non-
installing portable?) LyX pack.
A. Flexible, powerful converters, and maybe PDF-commenting compatibility.

these should be the 3 corps of our army: we should use all of them in the 
attack against M$ rule, but their use and cost is very different (please, have 
mercy of my war-metaphors!):

C. Behind our lines, let's just show our colleagues how powerful is to use a 
clean version-control system in clean documents etc. etc. Let's develop more 
advertising and info in different languages, fields and difficoulty levels 
(propaganda).

B. LyXlight is almost already done without doing anything. As David pointed 
out, A Lyx Latexless installation already works, it need only a restyle or 
simply a make-up, and, if possible, with a greater effort, also a portable 
version which don't require installation. This would be our best propaganda 
weapon. Ads too should therefore be basic-user-oriented, VERY friendly, and 
again, differentiated in languages, fields (maths, engineering, sciences, 
economics, law, humanities, textual-criticism-editions...) but a very basic 
level.

A. Conversion-software-trimming is a neverending task. I think it could be a 
very difficoult and annoying work, but we need it. Let's say converters labs 
should anyway take the 90% of the war costs. But we need them to bomb our 
collaborators with accettable rtf docs in order to invade our departments with 
our LyX papers. Needles to say, these could be a hard dirty guerrilla war 
since with LyX and LaTeX improvements, we will need better and better 
converters to handle growing features, and there will be always some problems 
in the conversions.

With this strategy in mind, LyX and Lyx users could advance a lot.

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Sun, 8 Feb 2009, typh...@aanet.com.au wrote:

I wasn't clear enough... I was actually thinking of Windows users, and 
that they'd be able to run LyX from the CD, but still inside Windows 
and not by booting into eg Knoppix.


Using a virtual machine might be an idea, but then you have the problem 
of how the user will access the .lyx-file from inside the VM.


And the whole thing has to be dead simple. We are mainly talking about 
Word users, and nothing can be assumed about their computer skills. It 
would be even nicer to have the whole thing on a USB stick.


A USB stick is even better than a CD. Then the directory .lyx/ can stay on 
the USB stick. I just bought a 4GB stick for about 10 EUR, so it's not 
exactly pricey either...


/Christian

--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Sun, 8 Feb 2009, Wolfgang Keller wrote:


perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to
demonstrate its merrit to those who care


Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software
on a CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without
installing it. I'm not sure it's feasible though.


I'm using LyX with TeXlive 2008 from a USB stick. I didn't even
install TeXlive on the stick, just copied it over from the DVD.


When you use it, do you have to install anything on the Windows machine?

/C



Sincerely,

Wolfgang




--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Wolfgang Keller]

  perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to
  demonstrate its merrit to those who care
 
 Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software
 on a CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without
 installing it. I'm not sure it's feasible though.

I'm using LyX with TeXlive 2008 from a USB stick. I didn't even
install TeXlive on the stick, just copied it over from the DVD.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Piero Faustini]

Guenter Milde mi...@... writes:

 Document format conversion is lossy by a natural law.

...the Wise know this.

Anyway, @LyxLyght's oppositors: I 

not-LyX-nor-even-LaTeX (i.e. Word) collaborators are of 3 kind:

A. Those who will never use anything different than Word (or OOo), say 50%
B. Those who may try something different, but only if really simple, say the 
greatest part of the remaining people
C. Those who may try LyX if worth trying, i.e. some lonely hero.

IMHO, each kind will need a different strategy. Let's start from the latter.

C. LyX, full stop (with improved project/bundle/version-control features). 
B. LyXLight, i.e. a non-scaring non-LaTeX very-friendly lightweight (non-
installing portable?) LyX pack.
A. Flexible, powerful converters, and maybe PDF-commenting compatibility.

these should be the 3 corps of our army: we should use all of them in the 
attack against M$ rule, but their use and cost is very different (please, have 
mercy of my war-metaphors!):

C. Behind our lines, let's just show our colleagues how powerful is to use a 
clean version-control system in clean documents etc. etc. Let's develop more 
advertising and info in different languages, fields and difficoulty levels 
(propaganda).

B. LyXlight is almost already done without doing anything. As David pointed 
out, A Lyx Latexless installation already works, it need only a restyle or 
simply a make-up, and, if possible, with a greater effort, also a portable 
version which don't require installation. This would be our best propaganda 
weapon. Ads too should therefore be basic-user-oriented, VERY friendly, and 
again, differentiated in languages, fields (maths, engineering, sciences, 
economics, law, humanities, textual-criticism-editions...) but a very basic 
level.

A. Conversion-software-trimming is a neverending task. I think it could be a 
very difficoult and annoying work, but we need it. Let's say converters labs 
should anyway take the 90% of the war costs. But we need them to bomb our 
collaborators with accettable rtf docs in order to invade our departments with 
our LyX papers. Needles to say, these could be a hard dirty guerrilla war 
since with LyX and LaTeX improvements, we will need better and better 
converters to handle growing features, and there will be always some problems 
in the conversions.

With this strategy in mind, LyX and Lyx users could advance a lot.

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Sun, 8 Feb 2009, typh...@aanet.com.au wrote:

I wasn't clear enough... I was actually thinking of Windows users, and 
that they'd be able to run LyX from the CD, but still inside Windows 
and not by booting into eg Knoppix.


Using a virtual machine might be an idea, but then you have the problem 
of how the user will access the .lyx-file from inside the VM.


And the whole thing has to be dead simple. We are mainly talking about 
Word users, and nothing can be assumed about their computer skills. It 
would be even nicer to have the whole thing on a USB stick.


A USB stick is even better than a CD. Then the directory .lyx/ can stay on 
the USB stick. I just bought a 4GB stick for about 10 EUR, so it's not 
exactly pricey either...


/Christian

--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Sun, 8 Feb 2009, Wolfgang Keller wrote:


perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to
demonstrate its merrit to those who care


Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software
on a CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without
installing it. I'm not sure it's feasible though.


I'm using LyX with TeXlive 2008 from a USB stick. I didn't even
install TeXlive on the stick, just copied it over from the DVD.


When you use it, do you have to install anything on the Windows machine?

/C



Sincerely,

Wolfgang




--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Wolfgang Keller]

> > perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to
> > demonstrate its merrit to those who care
> 
> Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software
> on a CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without
> installing it. I'm not sure it's feasible though.

I'm using LyX with TeXlive 2008 from a USB stick. I didn't even
"install" TeXlive on the stick, just copied it over from the DVD.

Sincerely,

Wolfgang

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Piero Faustini]

Guenter Milde  writes:

> Document format conversion is lossy "by a natural law".

...the Wise know this.

Anyway, @LyxLyght's "oppositors": I 

not-LyX-nor-even-LaTeX (i.e. Word) collaborators are of 3 kind:

A. Those who will never use anything different than Word (or OOo), say >50%
B. Those who may try something different, but only if really simple, say the 
greatest part of the remaining people
C. Those who may try LyX if worth trying, i.e. some lonely hero.

IMHO, each kind will need a different strategy. Let's start from the latter.

C. LyX, full stop (with improved project/bundle/version-control features). 
B. LyXLight, i.e. a non-scaring non-LaTeX very-friendly lightweight (non-
installing portable?) LyX pack.
A. Flexible, powerful converters, and maybe PDF-commenting compatibility.

these should be the 3 corps of our army: we should use all of them in the 
attack against M$ rule, but their use and cost is very different (please, have 
mercy of my war-metaphors!):

C. Behind our lines, let's just show our colleagues how powerful is to use a 
clean version-control system in clean documents etc. etc. Let's develop more 
advertising and info in different languages, fields and difficoulty levels 
("propaganda").

B. LyXlight is almost already done without doing anything. As David pointed 
out, A Lyx "Latexless" installation already works, it need only a restyle or 
simply a make-up, and, if possible, with a greater effort, also a "portable 
version" which don't require installation. This would be our best "propaganda" 
weapon. Ads too should therefore be basic-user-oriented, VERY friendly, and 
again, differentiated in languages, fields (maths, engineering, sciences, 
economics, law, humanities, textual-criticism-editions...) but a very basic 
level.

A. Conversion-software-trimming is a neverending task. I think it could be a 
very difficoult and annoying work, but we need it. Let's say converters "labs" 
should anyway take the 90% of the "war" costs. But we need them to "bomb" our 
collaborators with accettable rtf docs in order to invade our departments with 
our LyX papers. Needles to say, these could be a hard "dirty guerrilla war" 
since with LyX and LaTeX improvements, we will need better and better 
converters to handle growing features, and there will be always some problems 
in the conversions.

With this strategy in mind, LyX and Lyx users could advance a lot.

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Sun, 8 Feb 2009, typh...@aanet.com.au wrote:

I wasn't clear enough... I was actually thinking of Windows users, and 
that they'd be able to run LyX from the CD, but still inside Windows 
and not by booting into eg Knoppix.


Using a virtual machine might be an idea, but then you have the problem 
of how the user will access the .lyx-file from inside the VM.


And the whole thing has to be dead simple. We are mainly talking about 
Word users, and nothing can be assumed about their computer skills. It 
would be even nicer to have the whole thing on a USB stick.


A USB stick is even better than a CD. Then the directory .lyx/ can stay on 
the USB stick. I just bought a 4GB stick for about 10 EUR, so it's not 
exactly pricey either...


/Christian

--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Sun, 8 Feb 2009, Wolfgang Keller wrote:


perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to
demonstrate its merrit to those who care


Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software
on a CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without
installing it. I'm not sure it's feasible though.


I'm using LyX with TeXlive 2008 from a USB stick. I didn't even
"install" TeXlive on the stick, just copied it over from the DVD.


When you use it, do you have to install anything on the Windows machine?

/C



Sincerely,

Wolfgang




--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Wolfgang Engelmann]

On Friday 06 February 2009 09:32:12 A B wrote:

perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate its 
merrit to those who care

Wolfgang
 

 I'd say: create converters that are shipped with LyX instead!

 If I may generalize a little
 The word users are of two kinds: the largest part is the one that will
 never use anything but word no matte what you do. People is still
 educated to learn Word not writing and structuring documents. It is
 unfortunatly a waste of developer time to produce a LyX light version
 for these people, I'm affraid.

 Then there are however some that might install LyX and have a go if
 someone stands behind them and point and tell them what to do. They
 might just as well use LyX (perhaps it only need a switch to hide
 difficult menues and good templates(classes?) that will help them
 create very nice documents? That might be a better thing to do.

 What is needed is the ability to let LyX users interact with other
 people. With good  converters that enable LyX users to take a X-file,
 open, edit, and send back a X-file, (where X = word or html or rtf or
 openoffice or xml or even MP3 (with lillypond?) ) you can work with
 LyX in any  environment. Then others can see how powerful it is and
 then show them the pricetag...

 Btw: Education is a great place to promote LyX. Then they might
 continue to use it in the future. And it is in education people get
 addicted to Word. :-(

 Well, if I were a word fan and LyX was the dominant tool I would
 surerly have written a similar comment.

 Cheers!



-- 
-
Wolfgang Engelmann
Schlossgartenstrasse 22
D-72070 Tübingen
Tel 07071 68325

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Erez Yerushalmi]

A few threads back, someone mentioned a light LyX version. (A light
version that you wouldn't need the latex. You could edit the text, and and
see the equations)

I couldn't help thinking about adobe's PDF reader vs. PDF convert.

10 years ago, most people used PDF readers, and only academics and
professional institutions had the PDF converter.

This really got the PDF format accepted as an standard in the industry.

Erez




-- 
Erez Yerushalmi
PhD Student
Warwick University, UK
http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/phds/3rd_year/yerushalmi

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Sat, 7 Feb 2009, Wolfgang Engelmann wrote:


On Friday 06 February 2009 09:32:12 A B wrote:

perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate 
its merrit to those who care


Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software on 
a CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without installing it.

I'm not sure it's feasible though.

/Christian


--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Pavel Sanda]

Christian Ridderström wrote:
 perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate its 
 merrit to those who care

 Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software on a 
 CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without installing it.
 I'm not sure it's feasible though.

iirc this is already done on some knoppix live CD/DVD.
pavel

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Sat, 7 Feb 2009, Pavel Sanda wrote:


Christian Ridderström wrote:

perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate its
merrit to those who care


Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software on a
CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without installing it.
I'm not sure it's feasible though.


iirc this is already done on some knoppix live CD/DVD.


I wasn't clear enough... I was actually thinking of Windows users, and 
that they'd be able to run LyX from the CD, but still inside Windows and 
not by booting into eg Knoppix.


Using a virtual machine might be an idea, but then you have the problem of 
how the user will access the .lyx-file from inside the VM.


/Christian

--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[typhoon]

 On Sat, 7 Feb 2009, Pavel Sanda wrote:

 Christian Ridderström wrote:
 perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate
 its
 merrit to those who care

 Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software on
 a
 CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without installing it.
 I'm not sure it's feasible though.

 iirc this is already done on some knoppix live CD/DVD.

 I wasn't clear enough... I was actually thinking of Windows users, and
 that they'd be able to run LyX from the CD, but still inside Windows and
 not by booting into eg Knoppix.

 Using a virtual machine might be an idea, but then you have the problem of
 how the user will access the .lyx-file from inside the VM.

And the whole thing has to be dead simple. We are mainly talking about
Word users, and nothing can be assumed about their computer skills. It
would be even nicer to have the whole thing on a USB stick.

Alan


 /Christian

 --
 Christian Ridderström Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Wolfgang Engelmann]

On Friday 06 February 2009 09:32:12 A B wrote:

perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate its 
merrit to those who care

Wolfgang
 

 I'd say: create converters that are shipped with LyX instead!

 If I may generalize a little
 The word users are of two kinds: the largest part is the one that will
 never use anything but word no matte what you do. People is still
 educated to learn Word not writing and structuring documents. It is
 unfortunatly a waste of developer time to produce a LyX light version
 for these people, I'm affraid.

 Then there are however some that might install LyX and have a go if
 someone stands behind them and point and tell them what to do. They
 might just as well use LyX (perhaps it only need a switch to hide
 difficult menues and good templates(classes?) that will help them
 create very nice documents? That might be a better thing to do.

 What is needed is the ability to let LyX users interact with other
 people. With good  converters that enable LyX users to take a X-file,
 open, edit, and send back a X-file, (where X = word or html or rtf or
 openoffice or xml or even MP3 (with lillypond?) ) you can work with
 LyX in any  environment. Then others can see how powerful it is and
 then show them the pricetag...

 Btw: Education is a great place to promote LyX. Then they might
 continue to use it in the future. And it is in education people get
 addicted to Word. :-(

 Well, if I were a word fan and LyX was the dominant tool I would
 surerly have written a similar comment.

 Cheers!



-- 
-
Wolfgang Engelmann
Schlossgartenstrasse 22
D-72070 Tübingen
Tel 07071 68325

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Erez Yerushalmi]

A few threads back, someone mentioned a light LyX version. (A light
version that you wouldn't need the latex. You could edit the text, and and
see the equations)

I couldn't help thinking about adobe's PDF reader vs. PDF convert.

10 years ago, most people used PDF readers, and only academics and
professional institutions had the PDF converter.

This really got the PDF format accepted as an standard in the industry.

Erez




-- 
Erez Yerushalmi
PhD Student
Warwick University, UK
http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/phds/3rd_year/yerushalmi

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Sat, 7 Feb 2009, Wolfgang Engelmann wrote:


On Friday 06 February 2009 09:32:12 A B wrote:

perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate 
its merrit to those who care


Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software on 
a CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without installing it.

I'm not sure it's feasible though.

/Christian


--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Pavel Sanda]

Christian Ridderström wrote:
 perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate its 
 merrit to those who care

 Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software on a 
 CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without installing it.
 I'm not sure it's feasible though.

iirc this is already done on some knoppix live CD/DVD.
pavel

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Sat, 7 Feb 2009, Pavel Sanda wrote:


Christian Ridderström wrote:

perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate its
merrit to those who care


Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software on a
CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without installing it.
I'm not sure it's feasible though.


iirc this is already done on some knoppix live CD/DVD.


I wasn't clear enough... I was actually thinking of Windows users, and 
that they'd be able to run LyX from the CD, but still inside Windows and 
not by booting into eg Knoppix.


Using a virtual machine might be an idea, but then you have the problem of 
how the user will access the .lyx-file from inside the VM.


/Christian

--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[typhoon]

 On Sat, 7 Feb 2009, Pavel Sanda wrote:

 Christian Ridderström wrote:
 perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate
 its
 merrit to those who care

 Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software on
 a
 CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without installing it.
 I'm not sure it's feasible though.

 iirc this is already done on some knoppix live CD/DVD.

 I wasn't clear enough... I was actually thinking of Windows users, and
 that they'd be able to run LyX from the CD, but still inside Windows and
 not by booting into eg Knoppix.

 Using a virtual machine might be an idea, but then you have the problem of
 how the user will access the .lyx-file from inside the VM.

And the whole thing has to be dead simple. We are mainly talking about
Word users, and nothing can be assumed about their computer skills. It
would be even nicer to have the whole thing on a USB stick.

Alan


 /Christian

 --
 Christian Ridderström Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Wolfgang Engelmann]

On Friday 06 February 2009 09:32:12 A B wrote:

perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate its 
merrit to those who care

Wolfgang
 
>
> I'd say: create converters that are shipped with LyX instead!
>
> If I may generalize a little
> The word users are of two kinds: the largest part is the one that will
> never use anything but word no matte what you do. People is still
> educated to learn "Word" not writing and structuring documents. It is
> unfortunatly a waste of developer time to produce a LyX light version
> for these people, I'm affraid.
>
> Then there are however some that might install LyX and have a go if
> someone stands behind them and point and tell them what to do. They
> might just as well use LyX (perhaps it only need a switch to hide
> "difficult" menues and good templates(classes?) that will help them
> create very nice documents? That might be a better thing to do.
>
> What is needed is the ability to let LyX users interact with other
> people. With good  converters that enable LyX users to take a X-file,
> open, edit, and send back a X-file, (where X = word or html or rtf or
> openoffice or xml or even MP3 (with lillypond?) ) you can work with
> LyX in any  environment. Then others can see how powerful it is and
> then show them the pricetag...
>
> Btw: Education is a great place to promote LyX. Then they might
> continue to use it in the future. And it is in education people get
> addicted to Word. :-(
>
> Well, if I were a word "fan" and LyX was the dominant tool I would
> surerly have written a similar comment.
>
> Cheers!



-- 
-
Wolfgang Engelmann
Schlossgartenstrasse 22
D-72070 Tübingen
Tel 07071 68325

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Erez Yerushalmi]

A few threads back, someone mentioned a "light LyX" version. (A light
version that you wouldn't need the latex. You could edit the text, and and
see the equations)

I couldn't help thinking about adobe's "PDF reader" vs. "PDF convert".

10 years ago, most people used PDF readers, and only academics and
professional institutions had the PDF converter.

This really got the PDF format accepted as an standard in the industry.

Erez




-- 
Erez Yerushalmi
PhD Student
Warwick University, UK
http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/phds/3rd_year/yerushalmi

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Sat, 7 Feb 2009, Wolfgang Engelmann wrote:


On Friday 06 February 2009 09:32:12 A B wrote:

perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate 
its merrit to those who care


Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software on 
a CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without installing it.

I'm not sure it's feasible though.

/Christian


--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Pavel Sanda]

Christian Ridderström wrote:
>> perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate its 
>> merrit to those who care
>
> Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software on a 
> CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without installing it.
> I'm not sure it's feasible though.

iirc this is already done on some knoppix live CD/DVD.
pavel

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Sat, 7 Feb 2009, Pavel Sanda wrote:


Christian Ridderström wrote:

perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate its
merrit to those who care


Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software on a
CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without installing it.
I'm not sure it's feasible though.


iirc this is already done on some knoppix live CD/DVD.


I wasn't clear enough... I was actually thinking of Windows users, and 
that they'd be able to run LyX from the CD, but still inside Windows and 
not by booting into eg Knoppix.


Using a virtual machine might be an idea, but then you have the problem of 
how the user will access the .lyx-file from inside the VM.


/Christian

--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[typhoon]

> On Sat, 7 Feb 2009, Pavel Sanda wrote:
>
>> Christian Ridderström wrote:
 perhaps a live CD with a whatever-Lyx would be helpful to demonstrate
 its
 merrit to those who care
>>>
>>> Actually, a complete installation of LyX, LaTeX and various software on
>>> a
>>> CD could be a good idea, assuming it can be run without installing it.
>>> I'm not sure it's feasible though.
>>
>> iirc this is already done on some knoppix live CD/DVD.
>
> I wasn't clear enough... I was actually thinking of Windows users, and
> that they'd be able to run LyX from the CD, but still inside Windows and
> not by booting into eg Knoppix.
>
> Using a virtual machine might be an idea, but then you have the problem of
> how the user will access the .lyx-file from inside the VM.

And the whole thing has to be dead simple. We are mainly talking about
Word users, and nothing can be assumed about their computer skills. It
would be even nicer to have the whole thing on a USB stick.

Alan

>
> /Christian
>
> --
> Christian Ridderström Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[A B]

 I might have missed something here (I'm sorry in that case) but are
 you suggesting a LyX-light version for people that does not want to
 use anything but word

 Paradoxically yes.

I'd say: create converters that are shipped with LyX instead!

If I may generalize a little
The word users are of two kinds: the largest part is the one that will
never use anything but word no matte what you do. People is still
educated to learn Word not writing and structuring documents. It is
unfortunatly a waste of developer time to produce a LyX light version
for these people, I'm affraid.

Then there are however some that might install LyX and have a go if
someone stands behind them and point and tell them what to do. They
might just as well use LyX (perhaps it only need a switch to hide
difficult menues and good templates(classes?) that will help them
create very nice documents? That might be a better thing to do.

What is needed is the ability to let LyX users interact with other
people. With good  converters that enable LyX users to take a X-file,
open, edit, and send back a X-file, (where X = word or html or rtf or
openoffice or xml or even MP3 (with lillypond?) ) you can work with
LyX in any  environment. Then others can see how powerful it is and
then show them the pricetag...

Btw: Education is a great place to promote LyX. Then they might
continue to use it in the future. And it is in education people get
addicted to Word. :-(

Well, if I were a word fan and LyX was the dominant tool I would
surerly have written a similar comment.

Cheers!

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-02-05, rgheck wrote:

 I looked a bit closer and you are correct.  Python was installed

 I'd guess that a LyXLite probably wouldn't need python. We're never 
 exporting; we're never compiling. We don't care what programs and 
 packages are available or not. We're assuming that none are. So we just 
 use the default.

We still need Python for lyx2lyx conversion.
(But maybe installing Python could become an option in the miniLyX
installer.)

GM

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-02-06, A B wrote:
 I might have missed something here (I'm sorry in that case) 

Yes, reading the thread from the beginning will help to understand the
complex issue and the various solutions proposed so far...

 but are you suggesting a LyX-light version for people that does not
 want to use anything but word

For people unwilling to install LaTeX (because it is so big and
arcane).

 I'd say: create converters that are shipped with LyX instead!

Converters will always be lossy, while editing LyX-files in LyX is not.

There is no need to develop LyX-light. It is basically an installer
option that only needs to be advertised properly.


 If I may generalize a little
 The word users are of two kinds: the largest part is the one that will
 never use anything but word no matter what you do. People is still
 educated to learn Word not writing and structuring documents. It is
 unfortunatly a waste of developer time to produce a LyX light version
 for these people, I'm affraid.

I agree. Unfortunately, most of them also use a styling style that makes
import of their document most easy if you convert to plain text and
recreate the markup...

 Then there are however some that might install LyX and have a go if
 someone stands behind them and point and tell them what to do. They
 might just as well use LyX.

We just have to point them to the fact that they do not need to install
LaTeX to be able to edit a LyX document in LyX. This lowers the hurdle a
bit.


 What is needed is the ability to let LyX users interact with other
 people. With good  converters that enable LyX users to take a X-file,
 open, edit, and send back a X-file, (where X = word or html or rtf or
 openoffice or xml or even MP3 (with lillypond?) ) you can work with
 LyX in any  environment. 

Document format conversion is lossy by a natural law. You will see this
even with OO - Word, two programs with far more similarity and a
concerted effort (from the OO side) to have a good converter.

I agree that improved converters would help in some situations, but they
cannot truly replace editing in LyX in others.

Günter

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Graham Smith]

AB

I might have missed something here (I'm sorry in that case) but are
you suggesting a LyX-light version for people that does not want to
use anything but word
  

Paradoxically yes.



I'd say: create converters that are shipped with LyX instead!

If I may generalize a little
The word users are of two kinds: the largest part is the one that will
never use anything but word no matte what you do. People is still
educated to learn Word not writing and structuring documents. It is
unfortunatly a waste of developer time to produce a LyX light version
for these people, I'm affraid.
  
I agree with this,  I can't see any Word User installing a Lyx-Lite as a 
way of collaborating. And if I could,  they would be the ones that I 
would also be able to persuade to install Lyx. There may be other 
reasons for a Lyx-Lite but this isn't one.


For collaboration we need a high quality converter (which I doubt is 
possible, given how badly Microsoft, Open Office, Pages etc do with 
converters) or a PDF based solution where we can enable the 
collaboration features of Acrobat  Reader.


Graham

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-02-05, Abdelrazak Younes wrote:
 Guenter Milde wrote:

 This was about citation support. But I see it works without LaTeX too (but
 with limited funtionality: giving the bibtex-key instead)::

   ... 
   for details see [milde.ea.ieee-sensors:08]

   [LaTeX-Befehl: bibtex]

 FYI, I think Richard has further improved the bibtex parsing lately.

I know, this is why I can browse my bibtex database easily from within lyx.

Would it be feasable to use this new ability in LyX's text export?

Günter

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Vincent van Ravesteijn]

David Mertens schreef:

It would be great if ... the .lxy document would be bundled with all images
in a .zip file.




Great idea, but not trivial.  Has this been discussed on the lists before?
If it has, I couldn't find it.


  

Yes, see:
http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/BundleSuggestions
http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/BundleRoadmap

also linked to on the collaboration page:
http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/Collaboration

Vincent

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[stefan]

Hi,
It would be great if LightLyx(or whatever name) would be a portable,
one file solultion and the .lxy document would be bundled with all
images in a .zip file.
So you can just give the document (zip-file) and the exe (for windows)
file of PortanbleLightlyx to someone and he/she could review and
comment the document right away.
Istvan

2009/2/6, Guenter Milde mi...@users.berlios.de:
 On 2009-02-05, Abdelrazak Younes wrote:
 Guenter Milde wrote:

 This was about citation support. But I see it works without LaTeX too
 (but
 with limited funtionality: giving the bibtex-key instead)::

   ...
   for details see [milde.ea.ieee-sensors:08]

   [LaTeX-Befehl: bibtex]

 FYI, I think Richard has further improved the bibtex parsing lately.

 I know, this is why I can browse my bibtex database easily from within lyx.

 Would it be feasable to use this new ability in LyX's text export?

 Günter



-- 
Von meinen Mobilgerät aus gesendet

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Richard Heck]

Guenter Milde wrote:

On 2009-02-05, rgheck wrote:

  

I looked a bit closer and you are correct.  Python was installed
  


  
I'd guess that a LyXLite probably wouldn't need python. We're never 
exporting; we're never compiling. We don't care what programs and 
packages are available or not. We're assuming that none are. So we just 
use the default.



We still need Python for lyx2lyx conversion.
(But maybe installing Python could become an option in the miniLyX
installer.)

  
Yes, of course, that's correct. There's layout2layout, as well. So 
python is definitely required.


rh

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[David Mertens]

 It would be great if ... the .lxy document would be bundled with all images
 in a .zip file.


Great idea, but not trivial.  Has this been discussed on the lists before?
If it has, I couldn't find it.

We would probably want a portable LyX format (.plyx) that would be a
tarrball or zip of the .lyx file and the various images, possibly including
their .png previews (used by LyX) and possibly including a finished pdf
output so the collaborator could view the latest compiled version.  This
would make document exchange, and therefore collaboration, *much* easier.
I'm not sure how easily we could encorporate tarring or zipping capabilities
into the LyX binary itself, but I suspect it's not terribly difficult.

The problem is that LyX is designed to handle all of the images as external
documents, so adding 'internal' image capabilities would mean creating lots
of gui to manage those options.  What if a user wanted to save in internal
image as an external file on their HD?  That's a new dialog.  Also, you'd
want to be able to manage internal vs external settings, but how would that
effect LyX's Graphics dialog box?  You'd have to add a few new elements to
the Document Settings dialog if you wanted to modify include/exclude
settings for a compiled .pdf or .ps, or preview .png files.

And of course, .lyx - .plyx - .lyx would be nontrivial and the .plyx -
.lyx would in the very least require a new set of dialog boxes to handle
internal images that don't have a counterpart on the user's HD.  Trying to
minimize the programming load by only allowing import/export would seems
attractive but comes with its own set of problems, particularly for
collaboration (which was the point to begin with).  Native support seems
like the best option.

As you can see, the notion of a new portable file type is a good idea and is
a valid point of discussion for document collaboration, but it is a thorny
issue when you get up close to it.

David

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Richard Heck]

Guenter Milde wrote:

FYI, I think Richard has further improved the bibtex parsing lately.



I know, this is why I can browse my bibtex database easily from within lyx.

Would it be feasable to use this new ability in LyX's text export?

  
I don't see why not. Basically, we have a data structure that contains 
all the relevant information about BibTeX fields. We can do with it as 
we wish. So if you want to tell me what you want text export to do, it 
should be easy to make InsetCitation::plaintext() do it.


rh

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Richard Heck]

David Mertens wrote:

It would be great if ... the .lxy document would be bundled with all images
in a .zip file.




Great idea, but not trivial.  Has this been discussed on the lists before?
If it has, I couldn't find it.

  
A lot, but mostly on devel. There is, in fact, a script that lives (in 
svn) at development/tools/lyxpak.py that will take a LyX file and create 
a sort of package of everything it needs. So, in a way, we have this. 
What's never been agreed is how to have more: how to have a bundled or 
embedded LyX format that would be more like an OOo file, in that 
everything that was needed would be rolled up in one big piece.



We would probably want a portable LyX format (.plyx) that would be a
tarrball or zip of the .lyx file and the various images, possibly including
their .png previews (used by LyX) and possibly including a finished pdf
output so the collaborator could view the latest compiled version.  This
would make document exchange, and therefore collaboration, *much* easier.
I'm not sure how easily we could encorporate tarring or zipping capabilities
into the LyX binary itself, but I suspect it's not terribly difficult.

  

There's already a compressed mode, so this is there.


The problem is that LyX is designed to handle all of the images as external
documents, so adding 'internal' image capabilities would mean creating lots
of gui to manage those options.  What if a user wanted to save in internal
image as an external file on their HD?  That's a new dialog.  Also, you'd
want to be able to manage internal vs external settings, but how would that
effect LyX's Graphics dialog box?  You'd have to add a few new elements to
the Document Settings dialog if you wanted to modify include/exclude
settings for a compiled .pdf or .ps, or preview .png files.

And of course, .lyx - .plyx - .lyx would be nontrivial and the .plyx -
.lyx would in the very least require a new set of dialog boxes to handle
internal images that don't have a counterpart on the user's HD.  Trying to
minimize the programming load by only allowing import/export would seems
attractive but comes with its own set of problems, particularly for
collaboration (which was the point to begin with).  Native support seems
like the best option.

  
Yes, indeed, these are the problems. And if you do it wrong, you get 
huge security holes. How about bundling a python program into a LyX 
file? There are perfectly legitimate reasons to do that---you're talking 
about the listing. Now let's extract it to $HOME/bin/.



As you can see, the notion of a new portable file type is a good idea and is
a valid point of discussion for document collaboration, but it is a thorny
issue when you get up close to it.

  

Which is why this didn't make it into 1.6.

rh

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Steve Litt]

On Friday 06 February 2009 11:37:50 am Richard Heck wrote:

 Yes, of course, that's correct. There's layout2layout, as well. So
 python is definitely required.

What does layout2layout do?

SteveT
 
Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Steve Litt]

On Friday 06 February 2009 11:46:21 am Richard Heck wrote:
 David Mertens wrote:
  It would be great if ... the .lxy document would be bundled with all
  images in a .zip file.
 
  Great idea, but not trivial.  Has this been discussed on the lists
  before? If it has, I couldn't find it.

 A lot, but mostly on devel. There is, in fact, a script that lives (in
 svn) at development/tools/lyxpak.py that will take a LyX file and create
 a sort of package of everything it needs. So, in a way, we have this.
 What's never been agreed is how to have more: how to have a bundled or
 embedded LyX format that would be more like an OOo file, in that
 everything that was needed would be rolled up in one big piece.

Be careful what you wish for. Back in the 1990's I made all my tax worksheets 
in MS Word, with embedded Excel spreadsheets for calculations and charts.

Skip ahead a few years and somehow those embeds shifted so you couldn't see 
some of the columns. No problem, I'll just doubleclick and view them in 
Excel.

Ooops!, they won't run as Excel any more. They became just as useless over a 
few years as if they'd been left out in the rain to rust.

One of the things I've always loved about LyX is it always uses linking, and 
never embedding. Sure, embeddings easier to keep track of, but if it it 
corrupts a little, it corrupts absolutely.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Richard Heck]

Steve Litt wrote:

On Friday 06 February 2009 11:46:21 am Richard Heck wrote:
  

David Mertens wrote:


It would be great if ... the .lxy document would be bundled with all
images in a .zip file.


Great idea, but not trivial.  Has this been discussed on the lists
before? If it has, I couldn't find it.
  

A lot, but mostly on devel. There is, in fact, a script that lives (in
svn) at development/tools/lyxpak.py that will take a LyX file and create
a sort of package of everything it needs. So, in a way, we have this.
What's never been agreed is how to have more: how to have a bundled or
embedded LyX format that would be more like an OOo file, in that
everything that was needed would be rolled up in one big piece.



Be careful what you wish for. Back in the 1990's I made all my tax worksheets 
in MS Word, with embedded Excel spreadsheets for calculations and charts.


Skip ahead a few years and somehow those embeds shifted so you couldn't see 
some of the columns. No problem, I'll just doubleclick and view them in 
Excel.


Ooops!, they won't run as Excel any more. They became just as useless over a 
few years as if they'd been left out in the rain to rust.


One of the things I've always loved about LyX is it always uses linking, and 
never embedding. Sure, embeddings easier to keep track of, but if it it 
corrupts a little, it corrupts absolutely.


  
Discussions have always been along the lines of making embedding an 
option, mostly to be used in collaborative environments. Certainly LyX 
itself won't make it necessary.


rh

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[A B]

 I might have missed something here (I'm sorry in that case) but are
 you suggesting a LyX-light version for people that does not want to
 use anything but word

 Paradoxically yes.

I'd say: create converters that are shipped with LyX instead!

If I may generalize a little
The word users are of two kinds: the largest part is the one that will
never use anything but word no matte what you do. People is still
educated to learn Word not writing and structuring documents. It is
unfortunatly a waste of developer time to produce a LyX light version
for these people, I'm affraid.

Then there are however some that might install LyX and have a go if
someone stands behind them and point and tell them what to do. They
might just as well use LyX (perhaps it only need a switch to hide
difficult menues and good templates(classes?) that will help them
create very nice documents? That might be a better thing to do.

What is needed is the ability to let LyX users interact with other
people. With good  converters that enable LyX users to take a X-file,
open, edit, and send back a X-file, (where X = word or html or rtf or
openoffice or xml or even MP3 (with lillypond?) ) you can work with
LyX in any  environment. Then others can see how powerful it is and
then show them the pricetag...

Btw: Education is a great place to promote LyX. Then they might
continue to use it in the future. And it is in education people get
addicted to Word. :-(

Well, if I were a word fan and LyX was the dominant tool I would
surerly have written a similar comment.

Cheers!

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-02-05, rgheck wrote:

 I looked a bit closer and you are correct.  Python was installed

 I'd guess that a LyXLite probably wouldn't need python. We're never 
 exporting; we're never compiling. We don't care what programs and 
 packages are available or not. We're assuming that none are. So we just 
 use the default.

We still need Python for lyx2lyx conversion.
(But maybe installing Python could become an option in the miniLyX
installer.)

GM

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-02-06, A B wrote:
 I might have missed something here (I'm sorry in that case) 

Yes, reading the thread from the beginning will help to understand the
complex issue and the various solutions proposed so far...

 but are you suggesting a LyX-light version for people that does not
 want to use anything but word

For people unwilling to install LaTeX (because it is so big and
arcane).

 I'd say: create converters that are shipped with LyX instead!

Converters will always be lossy, while editing LyX-files in LyX is not.

There is no need to develop LyX-light. It is basically an installer
option that only needs to be advertised properly.


 If I may generalize a little
 The word users are of two kinds: the largest part is the one that will
 never use anything but word no matter what you do. People is still
 educated to learn Word not writing and structuring documents. It is
 unfortunatly a waste of developer time to produce a LyX light version
 for these people, I'm affraid.

I agree. Unfortunately, most of them also use a styling style that makes
import of their document most easy if you convert to plain text and
recreate the markup...

 Then there are however some that might install LyX and have a go if
 someone stands behind them and point and tell them what to do. They
 might just as well use LyX.

We just have to point them to the fact that they do not need to install
LaTeX to be able to edit a LyX document in LyX. This lowers the hurdle a
bit.


 What is needed is the ability to let LyX users interact with other
 people. With good  converters that enable LyX users to take a X-file,
 open, edit, and send back a X-file, (where X = word or html or rtf or
 openoffice or xml or even MP3 (with lillypond?) ) you can work with
 LyX in any  environment. 

Document format conversion is lossy by a natural law. You will see this
even with OO - Word, two programs with far more similarity and a
concerted effort (from the OO side) to have a good converter.

I agree that improved converters would help in some situations, but they
cannot truly replace editing in LyX in others.

Günter

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Graham Smith]

AB

I might have missed something here (I'm sorry in that case) but are
you suggesting a LyX-light version for people that does not want to
use anything but word
  

Paradoxically yes.



I'd say: create converters that are shipped with LyX instead!

If I may generalize a little
The word users are of two kinds: the largest part is the one that will
never use anything but word no matte what you do. People is still
educated to learn Word not writing and structuring documents. It is
unfortunatly a waste of developer time to produce a LyX light version
for these people, I'm affraid.
  
I agree with this,  I can't see any Word User installing a Lyx-Lite as a 
way of collaborating. And if I could,  they would be the ones that I 
would also be able to persuade to install Lyx. There may be other 
reasons for a Lyx-Lite but this isn't one.


For collaboration we need a high quality converter (which I doubt is 
possible, given how badly Microsoft, Open Office, Pages etc do with 
converters) or a PDF based solution where we can enable the 
collaboration features of Acrobat  Reader.


Graham

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-02-05, Abdelrazak Younes wrote:
 Guenter Milde wrote:

 This was about citation support. But I see it works without LaTeX too (but
 with limited funtionality: giving the bibtex-key instead)::

   ... 
   for details see [milde.ea.ieee-sensors:08]

   [LaTeX-Befehl: bibtex]

 FYI, I think Richard has further improved the bibtex parsing lately.

I know, this is why I can browse my bibtex database easily from within lyx.

Would it be feasable to use this new ability in LyX's text export?

Günter

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Vincent van Ravesteijn]

David Mertens schreef:

It would be great if ... the .lxy document would be bundled with all images
in a .zip file.




Great idea, but not trivial.  Has this been discussed on the lists before?
If it has, I couldn't find it.


  

Yes, see:
http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/BundleSuggestions
http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/BundleRoadmap

also linked to on the collaboration page:
http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/Collaboration

Vincent

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[stefan]

Hi,
It would be great if LightLyx(or whatever name) would be a portable,
one file solultion and the .lxy document would be bundled with all
images in a .zip file.
So you can just give the document (zip-file) and the exe (for windows)
file of PortanbleLightlyx to someone and he/she could review and
comment the document right away.
Istvan

2009/2/6, Guenter Milde mi...@users.berlios.de:
 On 2009-02-05, Abdelrazak Younes wrote:
 Guenter Milde wrote:

 This was about citation support. But I see it works without LaTeX too
 (but
 with limited funtionality: giving the bibtex-key instead)::

   ...
   for details see [milde.ea.ieee-sensors:08]

   [LaTeX-Befehl: bibtex]

 FYI, I think Richard has further improved the bibtex parsing lately.

 I know, this is why I can browse my bibtex database easily from within lyx.

 Would it be feasable to use this new ability in LyX's text export?

 Günter



-- 
Von meinen Mobilgerät aus gesendet

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Richard Heck]

Guenter Milde wrote:

On 2009-02-05, rgheck wrote:

  

I looked a bit closer and you are correct.  Python was installed
  


  
I'd guess that a LyXLite probably wouldn't need python. We're never 
exporting; we're never compiling. We don't care what programs and 
packages are available or not. We're assuming that none are. So we just 
use the default.



We still need Python for lyx2lyx conversion.
(But maybe installing Python could become an option in the miniLyX
installer.)

  
Yes, of course, that's correct. There's layout2layout, as well. So 
python is definitely required.


rh

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[David Mertens]

 It would be great if ... the .lxy document would be bundled with all images
 in a .zip file.


Great idea, but not trivial.  Has this been discussed on the lists before?
If it has, I couldn't find it.

We would probably want a portable LyX format (.plyx) that would be a
tarrball or zip of the .lyx file and the various images, possibly including
their .png previews (used by LyX) and possibly including a finished pdf
output so the collaborator could view the latest compiled version.  This
would make document exchange, and therefore collaboration, *much* easier.
I'm not sure how easily we could encorporate tarring or zipping capabilities
into the LyX binary itself, but I suspect it's not terribly difficult.

The problem is that LyX is designed to handle all of the images as external
documents, so adding 'internal' image capabilities would mean creating lots
of gui to manage those options.  What if a user wanted to save in internal
image as an external file on their HD?  That's a new dialog.  Also, you'd
want to be able to manage internal vs external settings, but how would that
effect LyX's Graphics dialog box?  You'd have to add a few new elements to
the Document Settings dialog if you wanted to modify include/exclude
settings for a compiled .pdf or .ps, or preview .png files.

And of course, .lyx - .plyx - .lyx would be nontrivial and the .plyx -
.lyx would in the very least require a new set of dialog boxes to handle
internal images that don't have a counterpart on the user's HD.  Trying to
minimize the programming load by only allowing import/export would seems
attractive but comes with its own set of problems, particularly for
collaboration (which was the point to begin with).  Native support seems
like the best option.

As you can see, the notion of a new portable file type is a good idea and is
a valid point of discussion for document collaboration, but it is a thorny
issue when you get up close to it.

David

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Richard Heck]

Guenter Milde wrote:

FYI, I think Richard has further improved the bibtex parsing lately.



I know, this is why I can browse my bibtex database easily from within lyx.

Would it be feasable to use this new ability in LyX's text export?

  
I don't see why not. Basically, we have a data structure that contains 
all the relevant information about BibTeX fields. We can do with it as 
we wish. So if you want to tell me what you want text export to do, it 
should be easy to make InsetCitation::plaintext() do it.


rh

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Richard Heck]

David Mertens wrote:

It would be great if ... the .lxy document would be bundled with all images
in a .zip file.




Great idea, but not trivial.  Has this been discussed on the lists before?
If it has, I couldn't find it.

  
A lot, but mostly on devel. There is, in fact, a script that lives (in 
svn) at development/tools/lyxpak.py that will take a LyX file and create 
a sort of package of everything it needs. So, in a way, we have this. 
What's never been agreed is how to have more: how to have a bundled or 
embedded LyX format that would be more like an OOo file, in that 
everything that was needed would be rolled up in one big piece.



We would probably want a portable LyX format (.plyx) that would be a
tarrball or zip of the .lyx file and the various images, possibly including
their .png previews (used by LyX) and possibly including a finished pdf
output so the collaborator could view the latest compiled version.  This
would make document exchange, and therefore collaboration, *much* easier.
I'm not sure how easily we could encorporate tarring or zipping capabilities
into the LyX binary itself, but I suspect it's not terribly difficult.

  

There's already a compressed mode, so this is there.


The problem is that LyX is designed to handle all of the images as external
documents, so adding 'internal' image capabilities would mean creating lots
of gui to manage those options.  What if a user wanted to save in internal
image as an external file on their HD?  That's a new dialog.  Also, you'd
want to be able to manage internal vs external settings, but how would that
effect LyX's Graphics dialog box?  You'd have to add a few new elements to
the Document Settings dialog if you wanted to modify include/exclude
settings for a compiled .pdf or .ps, or preview .png files.

And of course, .lyx - .plyx - .lyx would be nontrivial and the .plyx -
.lyx would in the very least require a new set of dialog boxes to handle
internal images that don't have a counterpart on the user's HD.  Trying to
minimize the programming load by only allowing import/export would seems
attractive but comes with its own set of problems, particularly for
collaboration (which was the point to begin with).  Native support seems
like the best option.

  
Yes, indeed, these are the problems. And if you do it wrong, you get 
huge security holes. How about bundling a python program into a LyX 
file? There are perfectly legitimate reasons to do that---you're talking 
about the listing. Now let's extract it to $HOME/bin/.



As you can see, the notion of a new portable file type is a good idea and is
a valid point of discussion for document collaboration, but it is a thorny
issue when you get up close to it.

  

Which is why this didn't make it into 1.6.

rh

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Steve Litt]

On Friday 06 February 2009 11:37:50 am Richard Heck wrote:

 Yes, of course, that's correct. There's layout2layout, as well. So
 python is definitely required.

What does layout2layout do?

SteveT
 
Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Steve Litt]

On Friday 06 February 2009 11:46:21 am Richard Heck wrote:
 David Mertens wrote:
  It would be great if ... the .lxy document would be bundled with all
  images in a .zip file.
 
  Great idea, but not trivial.  Has this been discussed on the lists
  before? If it has, I couldn't find it.

 A lot, but mostly on devel. There is, in fact, a script that lives (in
 svn) at development/tools/lyxpak.py that will take a LyX file and create
 a sort of package of everything it needs. So, in a way, we have this.
 What's never been agreed is how to have more: how to have a bundled or
 embedded LyX format that would be more like an OOo file, in that
 everything that was needed would be rolled up in one big piece.

Be careful what you wish for. Back in the 1990's I made all my tax worksheets 
in MS Word, with embedded Excel spreadsheets for calculations and charts.

Skip ahead a few years and somehow those embeds shifted so you couldn't see 
some of the columns. No problem, I'll just doubleclick and view them in 
Excel.

Ooops!, they won't run as Excel any more. They became just as useless over a 
few years as if they'd been left out in the rain to rust.

One of the things I've always loved about LyX is it always uses linking, and 
never embedding. Sure, embeddings easier to keep track of, but if it it 
corrupts a little, it corrupts absolutely.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Richard Heck]

Steve Litt wrote:

On Friday 06 February 2009 11:46:21 am Richard Heck wrote:
  

David Mertens wrote:


It would be great if ... the .lxy document would be bundled with all
images in a .zip file.


Great idea, but not trivial.  Has this been discussed on the lists
before? If it has, I couldn't find it.
  

A lot, but mostly on devel. There is, in fact, a script that lives (in
svn) at development/tools/lyxpak.py that will take a LyX file and create
a sort of package of everything it needs. So, in a way, we have this.
What's never been agreed is how to have more: how to have a bundled or
embedded LyX format that would be more like an OOo file, in that
everything that was needed would be rolled up in one big piece.



Be careful what you wish for. Back in the 1990's I made all my tax worksheets 
in MS Word, with embedded Excel spreadsheets for calculations and charts.


Skip ahead a few years and somehow those embeds shifted so you couldn't see 
some of the columns. No problem, I'll just doubleclick and view them in 
Excel.


Ooops!, they won't run as Excel any more. They became just as useless over a 
few years as if they'd been left out in the rain to rust.


One of the things I've always loved about LyX is it always uses linking, and 
never embedding. Sure, embeddings easier to keep track of, but if it it 
corrupts a little, it corrupts absolutely.


  
Discussions have always been along the lines of making embedding an 
option, mostly to be used in collaborative environments. Certainly LyX 
itself won't make it necessary.


rh

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[A B]

>> I might have missed something here (I'm sorry in that case) but are
>> you suggesting a LyX-light version for people that does not want to
>> use anything but word
>
> Paradoxically yes.

I'd say: create converters that are shipped with LyX instead!

If I may generalize a little
The word users are of two kinds: the largest part is the one that will
never use anything but word no matte what you do. People is still
educated to learn "Word" not writing and structuring documents. It is
unfortunatly a waste of developer time to produce a LyX light version
for these people, I'm affraid.

Then there are however some that might install LyX and have a go if
someone stands behind them and point and tell them what to do. They
might just as well use LyX (perhaps it only need a switch to hide
"difficult" menues and good templates(classes?) that will help them
create very nice documents? That might be a better thing to do.

What is needed is the ability to let LyX users interact with other
people. With good  converters that enable LyX users to take a X-file,
open, edit, and send back a X-file, (where X = word or html or rtf or
openoffice or xml or even MP3 (with lillypond?) ) you can work with
LyX in any  environment. Then others can see how powerful it is and
then show them the pricetag...

Btw: Education is a great place to promote LyX. Then they might
continue to use it in the future. And it is in education people get
addicted to Word. :-(

Well, if I were a word "fan" and LyX was the dominant tool I would
surerly have written a similar comment.

Cheers!

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-02-05, rgheck wrote:

>> I looked a bit closer and you are correct.  Python was installed

> I'd guess that a LyXLite probably wouldn't need python. We're never 
> exporting; we're never compiling. We don't care what programs and 
> packages are available or not. We're assuming that none are. So we just 
> use the default.

We still need Python for lyx2lyx conversion.
(But maybe installing Python could become an option in the "miniLyX"
installer.)

GM

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-02-06, A B wrote:
>>> I might have missed something here (I'm sorry in that case) 

Yes, reading the thread from the beginning will help to understand the
complex issue and the various solutions proposed so far...

>>> but are you suggesting a LyX-light version for people that does not
>>> want to use anything but word

For people unwilling to install LaTeX (because it is so big and
arcane).

> I'd say: create converters that are shipped with LyX instead!

Converters will always be lossy, while editing LyX-files in LyX is not.

There is no need to "develop" LyX-light. It is basically an installer
option that only needs to be advertised properly.


> If I may generalize a little
> The word users are of two kinds: the largest part is the one that will
> never use anything but word no matter what you do. People is still
> educated to learn "Word" not writing and structuring documents. It is
> unfortunatly a waste of developer time to produce a LyX light version
> for these people, I'm affraid.

I agree. Unfortunately, most of them also use a styling style that makes
import of their document most easy if you convert to plain text and
recreate the markup...

> Then there are however some that might install LyX and have a go if
> someone stands behind them and point and tell them what to do. They
> might just as well use LyX.

We just have to point them to the fact that they do not need to install
LaTeX to be able to edit a LyX document in LyX. This lowers the hurdle a
bit.


> What is needed is the ability to let LyX users interact with other
> people. With good  converters that enable LyX users to take a X-file,
> open, edit, and send back a X-file, (where X = word or html or rtf or
> openoffice or xml or even MP3 (with lillypond?) ) you can work with
> LyX in any  environment. 

Document format conversion is lossy "by a natural law". You will see this
even with OO <-> Word, two programs with far more similarity and a
concerted effort (from the OO side) to have a good converter.

I agree that improved converters would help in some situations, but they
cannot truly replace editing in LyX in others.

Günter

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Graham Smith]

AB

I might have missed something here (I'm sorry in that case) but are
you suggesting a LyX-light version for people that does not want to
use anything but word
  

Paradoxically yes.



I'd say: create converters that are shipped with LyX instead!

If I may generalize a little
The word users are of two kinds: the largest part is the one that will
never use anything but word no matte what you do. People is still
educated to learn "Word" not writing and structuring documents. It is
unfortunatly a waste of developer time to produce a LyX light version
for these people, I'm affraid.
  
I agree with this,  I can't see any Word User installing a Lyx-Lite as a 
way of collaborating. And if I could,  they would be the ones that I 
would also be able to persuade to install Lyx. There may be other 
reasons for a Lyx-Lite but this isn't one.


For collaboration we need a high quality converter (which I doubt is 
possible, given how badly Microsoft, Open Office, Pages etc do with 
converters) or a PDF based solution where we can enable the 
collaboration features of Acrobat  Reader.


Graham

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-02-05, Abdelrazak Younes wrote:
> Guenter Milde wrote:

>> This was about citation support. But I see it works without LaTeX too (but
>> with limited funtionality: giving the bibtex-key instead)::

>>   ... 
>>   for details see [milde.ea.ieee-sensors:08]

>>   [LaTeX-Befehl: bibtex]

> FYI, I think Richard has further improved the bibtex parsing lately.

I know, this is why I can browse my bibtex database easily from within lyx.

Would it be feasable to use this new ability in LyX's text export?

Günter

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Vincent van Ravesteijn]

David Mertens schreef:

It would be great if ... the .lxy document would be bundled with all images
in a .zip file.




Great idea, but not trivial.  Has this been discussed on the lists before?
If it has, I couldn't find it.


  

Yes, see:
http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/BundleSuggestions
http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/BundleRoadmap

also linked to on the collaboration page:
http://wiki.lyx.org/Devel/Collaboration

Vincent

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[stefan]

Hi,
It would be great if LightLyx(or whatever name) would be a portable,
one file solultion and the .lxy document would be bundled with all
images in a .zip file.
So you can just give the document (zip-file) and the exe (for windows)
file of PortanbleLightlyx to someone and he/she could review and
comment the document right away.
Istvan

2009/2/6, Guenter Milde :
> On 2009-02-05, Abdelrazak Younes wrote:
>> Guenter Milde wrote:
>
>>> This was about citation support. But I see it works without LaTeX too
>>> (but
>>> with limited funtionality: giving the bibtex-key instead)::
>
>>>   ...
>>>   for details see [milde.ea.ieee-sensors:08]
>
>>>   [LaTeX-Befehl: bibtex]
>
>> FYI, I think Richard has further improved the bibtex parsing lately.
>
> I know, this is why I can browse my bibtex database easily from within lyx.
>
> Would it be feasable to use this new ability in LyX's text export?
>
> Günter
>
>

-- 
Von meinen Mobilgerät aus gesendet

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Richard Heck]

Guenter Milde wrote:

On 2009-02-05, rgheck wrote:

  

I looked a bit closer and you are correct.  Python was installed
  


  
I'd guess that a LyXLite probably wouldn't need python. We're never 
exporting; we're never compiling. We don't care what programs and 
packages are available or not. We're assuming that none are. So we just 
use the default.



We still need Python for lyx2lyx conversion.
(But maybe installing Python could become an option in the "miniLyX"
installer.)

  
Yes, of course, that's correct. There's layout2layout, as well. So 
python is definitely required.


rh

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[David Mertens]

>
> It would be great if ... the .lxy document would be bundled with all images
> in a .zip file.
>

Great idea, but not trivial.  Has this been discussed on the lists before?
If it has, I couldn't find it.

We would probably want a portable LyX format (.plyx) that would be a
tarrball or zip of the .lyx file and the various images, possibly including
their .png previews (used by LyX) and possibly including a finished pdf
output so the collaborator could view the latest compiled version.  This
would make document exchange, and therefore collaboration, *much* easier.
I'm not sure how easily we could encorporate tarring or zipping capabilities
into the LyX binary itself, but I suspect it's not terribly difficult.

The problem is that LyX is designed to handle all of the images as external
documents, so adding 'internal' image capabilities would mean creating lots
of gui to manage those options.  What if a user wanted to save in internal
image as an external file on their HD?  That's a new dialog.  Also, you'd
want to be able to manage internal vs external settings, but how would that
effect LyX's Graphics dialog box?  You'd have to add a few new elements to
the Document Settings dialog if you wanted to modify include/exclude
settings for a compiled .pdf or .ps, or preview .png files.

And of course, .lyx -> .plyx -> .lyx would be nontrivial and the .plyx ->
.lyx would in the very least require a new set of dialog boxes to handle
internal images that don't have a counterpart on the user's HD.  Trying to
minimize the programming load by only allowing import/export would seems
attractive but comes with its own set of problems, particularly for
collaboration (which was the point to begin with).  Native support seems
like the best option.

As you can see, the notion of a new portable file type is a good idea and is
a valid point of discussion for document collaboration, but it is a thorny
issue when you get up close to it.

David

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Richard Heck]

Guenter Milde wrote:

FYI, I think Richard has further improved the bibtex parsing lately.



I know, this is why I can browse my bibtex database easily from within lyx.

Would it be feasable to use this new ability in LyX's text export?

  
I don't see why not. Basically, we have a data structure that contains 
all the relevant information about BibTeX fields. We can do with it as 
we wish. So if you want to tell me what you want text export to do, it 
should be easy to make InsetCitation::plaintext() do it.


rh

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Richard Heck]

David Mertens wrote:

It would be great if ... the .lxy document would be bundled with all images
in a .zip file.




Great idea, but not trivial.  Has this been discussed on the lists before?
If it has, I couldn't find it.

  
A lot, but mostly on devel. There is, in fact, a script that lives (in 
svn) at development/tools/lyxpak.py that will take a LyX file and create 
a sort of "package" of everything it needs. So, in a way, we have this. 
What's never been agreed is how to have more: how to have a "bundled" or 
"embedded" LyX format that would be more like an OOo file, in that 
everything that was needed would be rolled up in one big piece.



We would probably want a portable LyX format (.plyx) that would be a
tarrball or zip of the .lyx file and the various images, possibly including
their .png previews (used by LyX) and possibly including a finished pdf
output so the collaborator could view the latest compiled version.  This
would make document exchange, and therefore collaboration, *much* easier.
I'm not sure how easily we could encorporate tarring or zipping capabilities
into the LyX binary itself, but I suspect it's not terribly difficult.

  

There's already a compressed mode, so this is there.


The problem is that LyX is designed to handle all of the images as external
documents, so adding 'internal' image capabilities would mean creating lots
of gui to manage those options.  What if a user wanted to save in internal
image as an external file on their HD?  That's a new dialog.  Also, you'd
want to be able to manage internal vs external settings, but how would that
effect LyX's Graphics dialog box?  You'd have to add a few new elements to
the Document Settings dialog if you wanted to modify include/exclude
settings for a compiled .pdf or .ps, or preview .png files.

And of course, .lyx -> .plyx -> .lyx would be nontrivial and the .plyx ->
.lyx would in the very least require a new set of dialog boxes to handle
internal images that don't have a counterpart on the user's HD.  Trying to
minimize the programming load by only allowing import/export would seems
attractive but comes with its own set of problems, particularly for
collaboration (which was the point to begin with).  Native support seems
like the best option.

  
Yes, indeed, these are the problems. And if you do it wrong, you get 
huge security holes. How about bundling a python program into a LyX 
file? There are perfectly legitimate reasons to do that---you're talking 
about the listing. Now let's extract it to $HOME/bin/.



As you can see, the notion of a new portable file type is a good idea and is
a valid point of discussion for document collaboration, but it is a thorny
issue when you get up close to it.

  

Which is why this didn't make it into 1.6.

rh

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Steve Litt]

On Friday 06 February 2009 11:37:50 am Richard Heck wrote:

> Yes, of course, that's correct. There's layout2layout, as well. So
> python is definitely required.

What does layout2layout do?

SteveT
 
Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Steve Litt]

On Friday 06 February 2009 11:46:21 am Richard Heck wrote:
> David Mertens wrote:
> >> It would be great if ... the .lxy document would be bundled with all
> >> images in a .zip file.
> >
> > Great idea, but not trivial.  Has this been discussed on the lists
> > before? If it has, I couldn't find it.
>
> A lot, but mostly on devel. There is, in fact, a script that lives (in
> svn) at development/tools/lyxpak.py that will take a LyX file and create
> a sort of "package" of everything it needs. So, in a way, we have this.
> What's never been agreed is how to have more: how to have a "bundled" or
> "embedded" LyX format that would be more like an OOo file, in that
> everything that was needed would be rolled up in one big piece.

Be careful what you wish for. Back in the 1990's I made all my tax worksheets 
in MS Word, with embedded Excel spreadsheets for calculations and charts.

Skip ahead a few years and somehow those embeds shifted so you couldn't see 
some of the columns. No problem, I'll just doubleclick and view them in 
Excel.

Ooops!, they won't run as Excel any more. They became just as useless over a 
few years as if they'd been left out in the rain to rust.

One of the things I've always loved about LyX is it always uses linking, and 
never embedding. Sure, embeddings easier to keep track of, but if it it 
corrupts a little, it corrupts absolutely.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Recession Relief Package
http://www.recession-relief.US

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Richard Heck]

Steve Litt wrote:

On Friday 06 February 2009 11:46:21 am Richard Heck wrote:
  

David Mertens wrote:


It would be great if ... the .lxy document would be bundled with all
images in a .zip file.


Great idea, but not trivial.  Has this been discussed on the lists
before? If it has, I couldn't find it.
  

A lot, but mostly on devel. There is, in fact, a script that lives (in
svn) at development/tools/lyxpak.py that will take a LyX file and create
a sort of "package" of everything it needs. So, in a way, we have this.
What's never been agreed is how to have more: how to have a "bundled" or
"embedded" LyX format that would be more like an OOo file, in that
everything that was needed would be rolled up in one big piece.



Be careful what you wish for. Back in the 1990's I made all my tax worksheets 
in MS Word, with embedded Excel spreadsheets for calculations and charts.


Skip ahead a few years and somehow those embeds shifted so you couldn't see 
some of the columns. No problem, I'll just doubleclick and view them in 
Excel.


Ooops!, they won't run as Excel any more. They became just as useless over a 
few years as if they'd been left out in the rain to rust.


One of the things I've always loved about LyX is it always uses linking, and 
never embedding. Sure, embeddings easier to keep track of, but if it it 
corrupts a little, it corrupts absolutely.


  
Discussions have always been along the lines of making embedding an 
option, mostly to be used in collaborative environments. Certainly LyX 
itself won't make it necessary.


rh

Using example to promote (Was: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?)

[Christian Ridderström]

Hi,

Here's an ide for those wishing to promote LyX within their particular 
field or organisation:


Create one or more simple example documents that use reasonable
formatting and layout for your area.

I think that if the starting threshold to actually being productive is 
lowered by being able to start from a suitable template or example 
document, it'll be much easier for people to be converted.


The infrastructure for such examples is even in place... you can just 
create your own wiki page(s) and upload examples.  When creating an 
example, remember to upload not only the .lyx-file, but also the .pdf.

It's probably the PDF that they'll look at first to see the result.
You're welcome to ask for help on how to create the wiki page or on how to 
upload examples.


As for creating such examples, you can base them on documents you've 
already prepared. And, of course, you can ask for help on this list. It 
might also be a good idea to ask people on the list to scrutinize the 
methods used in the document to produce the required layout.


Best regards
/Christian

PS. My thinking here was greatly inspired by noticing how much more 
productive I became when I used a template document as a starting point.
This template document already has suitable headers, footers etc with 
logotype and whatnot.




On Wed, 4 Feb 2009, Murat Yildizoglu wrote:


Nice promotional page! I had planned to write a page on LyX on my very
slow-living blog after the release of the version 1.6, but I have not
time yet. My students normally use the tips I give there Maybe during
the next holidays I will try to put it in place. The promotion is
important. What about the publication in economic journals of articles
exported from LyX? I slowly begin to switch to LyX but I keep SWP for
professional issues since I know that it is accepted by international
journals...

Regards,

Murat

2009/2/4 Erez Yerushalmi erezyerusha...@gmail.com:

Hi all,

I agree with much of what has been said.

Another thing which *diffuses* LyX into the academia is just pure*advertising
* - I'm using Murat's words.
For example, I am advertising LyX to all my students and colleagues.

Maybe a good thing is for all those that like LyX, to do something similar.
See example:

http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/phds/3rd_year/yerushalmi/computing/lyx

In the economics department at Warwick University we have many LyX
converts.

I really love LyX and thanks to it, have stopped writing by hand.

Erez




On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 11:05 AM, Murat Yildizoglu 
murat.yildizo...@univ-cezanne.fr wrote:


I definitely support Ken's proposition. SWP really makes a huge mess
with the latex file (even if the file is compilable by a standar Latex
engine - I use the same TexLive 2005 with SWP and LyX). The
possibility of easily switching to LyX can have some importance
consequences on  a larger diffusion of LyX in the academia.

Murat

2009/2/4 Ken kmai...@googlemail.com:

It was a few months ago that I went through the hassle of

import/exporting

between LyX and SWP.  Yes, SWP can export to portable latex, but it was
not all that portable.  However with a few tweaks it was possible to get

a

decent import into LyX. (I think there is a wiki page on it with regards

to

custom macros and images and I recall having a few other small issues).

The much harder problem was getting LyX documents into SWP.  I can't
remember exactly but SWP didn't like certain table formats.  Any attempt

to

import the tex file would cause SWP to balloon in memory requirements and
hog the CPU until it either crashed the machine or I killed the process.

In the end the inflexible SWP won as the default application.  But it is

so

hard to go from amazing-and-free LyX to cumbersome-buggy-and-expensive

SWP.

In fact, I would have much much rather just edited the raw text file than
use SWP (but even that was a nightmare as SWP adds line breaks to its

text

file making 'diff' imposible to use).

Again, I suppose my recommendation would be to make it as easy as

possible

to have users move from SWP to LyX (and it isnt that bad at the moment)

but

it probably isnt worth the time or energy to make LyX documents

compatible

with SWP.  I honestly think that once one writes a single paper with LyX
they will never go back SWP (but getting them to do that first paper is

the

hard bit).

-Ken




2009/2/3 Jean-Marc Lasgouttes lasgout...@lyx.org


I have worked with a co-author that insists on using Scientific Word.

 My

experience is that not only is SW/SWP very expensive, I also find it a

far

inferior product to LyX.  It is not easy to import documents from SWP

and

even
harder to export them to SWP even though they are both LaTeX editors.

 At

the
university, SWP is available as a standard install on machines but not
LyX.



Is it still true that swp is able to export 'portable latex' or

whatever,

that
is easier to import? How does LyX fare with that?

JMarc







--

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Abdelrazak Younes]

Pavel Sanda wrote:

Piero Faustini wrote:
want. No converters, no LaTeX. 


no converters - no pictures


Not quite true. Most (if not all) of the image formats typically used by 
Windows user are natively supported by LyX.


Abdel.

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-02-04, David Mertens wrote:


 3. (optional, and not so inmediate) A light-weight full-view (and
 idiot-proof as well) LyX version, (I have the name: LyteX or LyghtX!)

Why not Ly-X (for lyx without TeX)? but this is a minor point.

 is able to edit text (and structure) of conventional LyX docs
 This software should be completely LaTeX independent and, if possible,
 to have an alternate output system for printing a simple
 representation of the content. 

The main point is that its already possible to install and use LyX for
document viewing and editing without the need to install helpers (TeX and
Friends).

I am not completely sure about the Text export.

Also, it may be that some settings are blocked if the supporting LaTeX
package is missing.

 Citation dialogs and any other stuff which do not need LaTeX should
 work.

Editing yes, output would need LaTeX even for text (AFAIK).

...

 Yeah, a LyX viewer/editor without document processing back-end 
 (and the associated 800Mb download) would be great.

A basic standard LaTeX system should fit into ~ 20 MB but as already
said it not required by LyX.

It could help, if you (or any other interested person) could try LyX
without LaTeX (deinstall LaTeX and reconfigure LyX or install LyX on a
box without LaTeX) and report the experience and problems.

Günter

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, Guenter Milde wrote:


idiot-proof as well) LyX version, (I have the name: LyteX or LyghtX!)


Why not Ly-X (for lyx without TeX)? but this is a minor point.


Maybe it's _too_ close to LyX?  Thus easily mistaken.

Also, it may be that some settings are blocked if the supporting LaTeX 
package is missing.


Isn't this going to be a big problem?  LyX objects rather strongly when it 
thinks you don't have the corresponding LaTeX class installed. Of course, 
this behaviour could be changed.


It could help, if you (or any other interested person) could try LyX 
without LaTeX (deinstall LaTeX and reconfigure LyX or install LyX on a 
box without LaTeX) and report the experience and problems.


That's a good idea.  And as Guenter says, remember to reconfigure LyX to 
experience the problems with missing LaTeX classes.


regards,
/Christian

--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Helge Hafting]

Ken wrote:


harder to export them to SWP even though they are both LaTeX editors.  At the
university, SWP is available as a standard install on machines but not LyX. 

Have you tried getting the university to offer LyX as part of the 
standard install as well? Being free means they don't need a budget or 
any licence tracking, just the one-time job of setting up the install. 
Which shouldn't be that tricky given that they already offer latex.


This won't help with the guy stuck on SWP, but it will be easier to have 
more people try.


Helge Hafting

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Christian Ridderström]

On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, Helge Hafting wrote:


 Isn't this going to be a big problem?  LyX objects rather strongly
 when it thinks you don't have the corresponding LaTeX class installed.
 Of course, this behaviour could be changed.


Isn't this decision made based on what the configure script autodetected 
at install time? Just supply a fake config file where each and every 
latex feature is believed to exist.


I think it is. Faking the config file is an interesting idea, but I worry 
it might not cause other problems. What should happen if the user tries to 
create a PDF?  I guess this light version culd have those options removed 
from the menu system and the toolbars.


/Christian

--
Christian Ridderström   Mobile: +46-70 687 39 44

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-02-05, Rainer M Krug wrote:

 the options of editing via PDFs and conversion from and to rtf, should
 be explored further as they really would solve the problem. 

The problem here is, that PDF and rtf do not provide semantic markup so
most of the document structure and other vital information is
irrevesibly lost.

This means the scenario:  

  LyX-file - PDF/rtf-file - Edit - reconvert to LyX-file

is impossible.

OTOH, LaTeX and HTML

* support semantic markup,
* are widely known and used,
* can be converted to and from a wide range of other formats by existing
  third party tools (with limitations, though),

While HTML has wider prevalence, LaTeX supports more features an is
closer to the docuement model used in LyX.

In my view, to use LaTeX as exchange format,
LyX development should 

a) concentrate on an improved 
  LyX - LaTeX - LyX 
   cycle (with the aim to get this round-trip lossless) and 

b) encourage development/improvement of LaTeX converters (to/from
   OOffice, HTML, reStructuredText) that emphasise preserving the
   semantic over visual appearance.

c) optimise the LaTeX import from these converters.

Using HTML as exchange format would require similar efforts

a) use/improvement/development of HTML-* converters that preserve
   the semantic information and leave the presentational layout
   completely to CSS.

b) a common extension method to represent semantic information that has no
   direct counterpart in HTML.


 I still consider the via comments in pdfs together with syncTeX as the
 easiest to include. Also, with syncTeX, it should be possible to
 import the comments as notes in the original LyX document (at the
 right position) - stated from somebody who does not know anything
 about the inner workings of LaTeX and pdfs.

In principle, something like

  LyX-file - PDF/rtf-file - Annote - import annotations into LyX-file

should be possible. But I cannot say how much work this is and whether or
when it could be done.

Günter

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Ken]

Helge,

Thanks for your message.  Yes, I wrote to the IT folks a few weeks ago with
the suggestion and will try to follow it up in a few weeks time.  While
there is no licensing costs they may have to worry about the installation
and support cost/effort.  But again, I think that LyX is far and away better
than SWP and is definitely worth their investment... and will try to
convince them of it :)

Ken


2009/2/5 Helge Hafting helge.haft...@hist.no

 Ken wrote:

  harder to export them to SWP even though they are both LaTeX editors.  At
 the
 university, SWP is available as a standard install on machines but not
 LyX.

 Have you tried getting the university to offer LyX as part of the standard
 install as well? Being free means they don't need a budget or any licence
 tracking, just the one-time job of setting up the install. Which shouldn't
 be that tricky given that they already offer latex.

 This won't help with the guy stuck on SWP, but it will be easier to have
 more people try.

 Helge Hafting

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2009-02-04, Pavel Sanda wrote:
 Piero Faustini wrote:
 want. No converters, no LaTeX. 

 no converters - no pictures

Well, pictures in formats supported directly by QT will still be visible
(which are a lot).

Günter

Re: Strategies for Writing Co-operation with Non-LyX Users?

[Helge Hafting]

Christian Ridderström wrote:

On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, Guenter Milde wrote:


idiot-proof as well) LyX version, (I have the name: LyteX or LyghtX!)


Why not Ly-X (for lyx without TeX)? but this is a minor point.


Maybe it's _too_ close to LyX?  Thus easily mistaken.


lyxlight? minilyx? microlyx?
Also, it may be that some settings are blocked if the supporting LaTeX 
package is missing.


Isn't this going to be a big problem?  LyX objects rather strongly when 
it thinks you don't have the corresponding LaTeX class installed. Of 
course, this behaviour could be changed.


Isn't this decision made based on what the configure script autodetected 
at install time? Just supply a fake config file where each and every 
latex feature is believed to exist.


Or in the case of a serious cooperation setup - use the same config file 
as the guy who has the full lyx setup and does the printing.


Helge Hafting