Re: [M100] Notoriously S.L.O.W BASIC posted - help speeding it up appreciated
On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 7:16 PM Mike Stein wrote:
> That's odd; can't your terminal program just wait forever for the next
> dump? If it times out, can't you override that?
>
Sure, it's actually even easier to just let it all accumulate in one file.
It just hadn't occurred to me to do it that way.
> It probably won't matter with a small file like this but I've found that
> at 19200 even TEXT has trouble keeping up when downloading. The M100
> doesn't have hardware handshaking and only has XON/XOFF, which is not
> always reliable.
>
I used to believe the same things about XON/XOFF: I derisively referred to
it as an unreliable protocol that should have died with disco. I never
understood how people could have used serial connections before hardware
handshaking. (Nor did I understand disco.)
It turns out, I was wrong. On my Tandy 200, what I've discovered is that
XON/XOFF is 100% reliable at 19200, if you've got a good serial card on
your PC. The key thing is that latency has to be very low. That means,
either Ⓐ disabling all buffers, including the FIFO buffer on the serial
port, or Ⓑ, which is preferable if your UART chips support doing so,
enabling *hardware-level XON/XOFF*. (The Linux kernel automatically sets
this up for you if your hardware can handle it; I presume other systems are
similar.)
Ⓐ Back in the days of yore, when the Model T was current, serial cards had
a 1-byte buffer, which meant every single byte caused a system interrupt.
(!) That meant, they actually had less latency relative to speed of filling
the output buffer than our fast, modern computers. I haven't had one to
test, but I believe old PCs with an 8250 UART would not overwhelm a Model
T, even at 19,200. Nowadays, every serial card comes with a minimum of
16-bytes for the FIFO and it is not always easy (or possible) to disable
it.
Ⓑ Despite XON/XOFF being called "software flow control", many chips
actually offer hardware implementations so they can stop the flow of
communication the instant the Model 100 holds up its hand and says,
*“Whoa!”* Without hardware-level support, you have to wait for the XOFF
(^S) character to go through all the buffers on the PC and get processed
before data stops getting sent. By the time that happens, the buffer of
data going to the Model 100, which has been filling up at 19,200 bps, is
now so large that it will overwhelm the M100, causing data loss.
Some cheap USB Serial adapters do not offer on-chip XON/XOFF and they are
unreliable at high-speeds. What serial card / USB adapter are you using? I
know the 16*9*50 UART has on-chip xon/xoff, as do most (all?) FTDI chips.
ProLific's PL2303 *sometimes* has support, but they rarely label it on the
box so it's hard to know before you buy an adapter.
—b9
>
> When uploading/saving from BASIC there doesn't seem to be much difference
> between 9600 and 19200, since it has to detokenize as it goes. Try it and
> see how it goes at 19200; TELCOM and text would probably be a little faster.
>
> I've added an option to send the dump output to the com port; that seems
> to work fine at 19200.
>
> BTW, I don't think we'll do much better than 34 seconds/50 lines; as I
> mentioned, LCD performance is pretty bad, especially scrolling.
>
> For comparison, outputting to the com port halves the time to 17 seconds,
> and of course you can scroll, save and print that on your PC as well.
>
> m
>
> On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 9:54 PM B 9 wrote:
>
>> That sounds like a nice workflow. This ought to be in a FAQ of tips and
>> hints for people new to the M100.
>>
>> I might just try it out. I'm pretty rigorous about using *SAVE
>> "COM:98N1ENN"*, but I have to tell my Unix box to receive the file each
>> time (cp /dev/ttyUSB0 foo.do). And every copy I save overwrites the
>> previous one, unlike the natural history you'll have in your log file if
>> you find you need to go back a few revisions.
>>
>> One question though: why do you send at 9600 bps? I thought all Model T's
>> could do 19,200bps.
>>
>> —b9
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2022 at 10:26 AM MikeS wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Will,
>>>
>>> Too many times I've made some changes and either accidentally deleted
>>> the file or messed it up so badly that I want to revert to the previous
>>> version, so I've learned the hard way that it's a good idea to save the
>>> work before making major changes.
>>>
>>> One way is to SAVE it locally on the M100 as a .DO file ("Foo.do" or
>>> "Foo",A) , changing the name as appropriate; note that BASIC will save a
>>> file as .BA by default but will LOAD a .DO file without specifying the
>>> '.DO' or ',A' if no .BA file with the same file exists. Of course if it's a
>>> very large file you may not have room for both the .BA and .DO files in RAM
>>> at the same time.
>>>
>>> What I do if I'm close enough to a PC to easily connect or stay
>>> connected is to open a file (e.g. "backup.txt") on the PC for ASCII text
>>> download with a terminal program and just leave it open.
>>>
>>> On the M100 I've
Re: [M100] Notoriously S.L.O.W BASIC posted - help speeding it up appreciated
On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 7:28 PM John R. Hogerhuis wrote: > You could always script it out to do a git commit after every ctrl-z > Sometimes, I don't know if you're joking or not... I mean, yes, that's brilliant and should work. But, oh boy. Once again, you've got my brain turning on completely needless, yet very cool ideas. ☺ —b9 P.S. For those who don't know ^Z is the Model 100's End-of-File character which I believe gets sent at the end of an ASCII file. Though, now that I think about it, I never see that character in my files on my UNIX box... Oh, wait, I bound EOF to ^Z using stty -f /dev/ttyUSB0 EOF ^Z, so maybe UNIX's tty is consuming it.
Re: [M100] Notoriously S.L.O.W BASIC posted - help speeding it up appreciated
This is the period-accurate pre-Git equivalent ;-) We're doing it the hard way, without VirtualT, REX etc.; more fun that way ... m - Original Message - From: John R. Hogerhuis To: m...@bitchin100.com Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2022 10:26 PM Subject: Re: [M100] Notoriously S.L.O.W BASIC posted - help speeding it up appreciated You could always script it out to do a git commit after every ctrl-z -- John.
Re: [M100] Notoriously S.L.O.W BASIC posted - help speeding it up appreciated
You could always script it out to do a git commit after every ctrl-z -- John.
Re: [M100] Notoriously S.L.O.W BASIC posted - help speeding it up appreciated
That's odd; can't your terminal program just wait forever for the next
dump? If it times out, can't you override that?
It probably won't matter with a small file like this but I've found that at
19200 even TEXT has trouble keeping up when downloading. The M100 doesn't
have hardware handshaking and only has XON/XOFF, which is not always
reliable.
When uploading/saving from BASIC there doesn't seem to be much difference
between 9600 and 19200, since it has to detokenize as it goes. Try it and
see how it goes at 19200; TELCOM and text would probably be a little faster.
I've added an option to send the dump output to the com port; that seems to
work fine at 19200.
BTW, I don't think we'll do much better than 34 seconds/50 lines; as I
mentioned, LCD performance is pretty bad, especially scrolling.
For comparison, outputting to the com port halves the time to 17 seconds,
and of course you can scroll, save and print that on your PC as well.
m
On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 9:54 PM B 9 wrote:
> That sounds like a nice workflow. This ought to be in a FAQ of tips and
> hints for people new to the M100.
>
> I might just try it out. I'm pretty rigorous about using *SAVE
> "COM:98N1ENN"*, but I have to tell my Unix box to receive the file each
> time (cp /dev/ttyUSB0 foo.do). And every copy I save overwrites the
> previous one, unlike the natural history you'll have in your log file if
> you find you need to go back a few revisions.
>
> One question though: why do you send at 9600 bps? I thought all Model T's
> could do 19,200bps.
>
> —b9
>
> On Sat, Oct 29, 2022 at 10:26 AM MikeS wrote:
>
>> Hi Will,
>>
>> Too many times I've made some changes and either accidentally deleted the
>> file or messed it up so badly that I want to revert to the previous
>> version, so I've learned the hard way that it's a good idea to save the
>> work before making major changes.
>>
>> One way is to SAVE it locally on the M100 as a .DO file ("Foo.do" or
>> "Foo",A) , changing the name as appropriate; note that BASIC will save a
>> file as .BA by default but will LOAD a .DO file without specifying the
>> '.DO' or ',A' if no .BA file with the same file exists. Of course if it's a
>> very large file you may not have room for both the .BA and .DO files in RAM
>> at the same time.
>>
>> What I do if I'm close enough to a PC to easily connect or stay connected
>> is to open a file (e.g. "backup.txt") on the PC for ASCII text download
>> with a terminal program and just leave it open.
>>
>> On the M100 I've programmed F7 to 'Key 7, "COM:88N1E"', so when I want to
>> save the file I'm working on I press F3 to save, F7 in response to 'Save "'
>> and Return. It's a good idea to embed a version no. in the program and
>> update it every time.
>>
>> This concatenates all the saved files in one file; if you actually need
>> to go back then you'd have to stop the transfer, edit the file on the PC
>> and send it back to the M100. Of course you can open a new file on the PC
>> every time if you don't mind typing on the PC every time.
>>
>> To Load a .DO file from the PC, open TEXT, enter the File name, LOAD (F2)
>> and enter 'COM:88N1E' in response to 'Load from:'; on the PC terminal
>> program select Upload ASCII or whatever it's called and the file name
>> (which does not have to be the same as on the M100). You may not see
>> anything happening but the terminal program should indicate somehow when
>> the transfer is finished. Type a CTL-Z on the PC and the file should appear
>> on the M100; switch to BASIC and Load it, and Bob's your mother's brother.
>>
>> This is mainly meant for folks who want to or have to just use the M100's
>> built-in functions, and to show how to avoid overruns when Loading BASIC
>> .DO programs as in a previous post here a few days ago.
>>
>> Teeny, TS-DOS etc. certainly are very useful and in fact necessary if
>> you're working with .BA tokenized files or Machine language code.
>>
>> Other than my phone I'm not an Apple kind of guy, so I can't give any
>> Mac-specific hints.
>>
>> One other hint: to simplify switching from RUN to EDIT mode I've
>> programmed 'F6,"Edit"+chr$(13)'
>>
>> Not too verbose, I hope...
>>
>> m
>>
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> *From:* Will Senn
>> *To:* m100@lists.bitchin100.com
>> *Sent:* Saturday, October 29, 2022 10:16 AM
>> *Subject:* Re: [M100] Notoriously S.L.O.W BASIC posted - help speeding
>> it up appreciated
>>
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> I'm curious about the COM stuff. In a later note you said:
>>
>> It's actually sorta been fun programming on the 'real' M100; I left a
>> download running on the PC and every time I wanted to backup an interim
>> version just in case, I just pressed F3 and F7 (which I'd programmed with
>> the COM stats).
>>
>> and here, you say stuff about programming the function keys with
>> "COM:88N1E"...
>>
>> It would be nice to be able to transfer / save from BASIC and/or my
>> terminal on the Mac without the overhead of dl/TEENY.CO. I know enough
>> to be
Re: [M100] Notoriously S.L.O.W BASIC posted - help speeding it up appreciated
That sounds like a nice workflow. This ought to be in a FAQ of tips and
hints for people new to the M100.
I might just try it out. I'm pretty rigorous about using *SAVE
"COM:98N1ENN"*, but I have to tell my Unix box to receive the file each
time (cp /dev/ttyUSB0 foo.do). And every copy I save overwrites the
previous one, unlike the natural history you'll have in your log file if
you find you need to go back a few revisions.
One question though: why do you send at 9600 bps? I thought all Model T's
could do 19,200bps.
—b9
On Sat, Oct 29, 2022 at 10:26 AM MikeS wrote:
> Hi Will,
>
> Too many times I've made some changes and either accidentally deleted the
> file or messed it up so badly that I want to revert to the previous
> version, so I've learned the hard way that it's a good idea to save the
> work before making major changes.
>
> One way is to SAVE it locally on the M100 as a .DO file ("Foo.do" or
> "Foo",A) , changing the name as appropriate; note that BASIC will save a
> file as .BA by default but will LOAD a .DO file without specifying the
> '.DO' or ',A' if no .BA file with the same file exists. Of course if it's a
> very large file you may not have room for both the .BA and .DO files in RAM
> at the same time.
>
> What I do if I'm close enough to a PC to easily connect or stay connected
> is to open a file (e.g. "backup.txt") on the PC for ASCII text download
> with a terminal program and just leave it open.
>
> On the M100 I've programmed F7 to 'Key 7, "COM:88N1E"', so when I want to
> save the file I'm working on I press F3 to save, F7 in response to 'Save "'
> and Return. It's a good idea to embed a version no. in the program and
> update it every time.
>
> This concatenates all the saved files in one file; if you actually need to
> go back then you'd have to stop the transfer, edit the file on the PC and
> send it back to the M100. Of course you can open a new file on the PC every
> time if you don't mind typing on the PC every time.
>
> To Load a .DO file from the PC, open TEXT, enter the File name, LOAD (F2)
> and enter 'COM:88N1E' in response to 'Load from:'; on the PC terminal
> program select Upload ASCII or whatever it's called and the file name
> (which does not have to be the same as on the M100). You may not see
> anything happening but the terminal program should indicate somehow when
> the transfer is finished. Type a CTL-Z on the PC and the file should appear
> on the M100; switch to BASIC and Load it, and Bob's your mother's brother.
>
> This is mainly meant for folks who want to or have to just use the M100's
> built-in functions, and to show how to avoid overruns when Loading BASIC
> .DO programs as in a previous post here a few days ago.
>
> Teeny, TS-DOS etc. certainly are very useful and in fact necessary if
> you're working with .BA tokenized files or Machine language code.
>
> Other than my phone I'm not an Apple kind of guy, so I can't give any
> Mac-specific hints.
>
> One other hint: to simplify switching from RUN to EDIT mode I've
> programmed 'F6,"Edit"+chr$(13)'
>
> Not too verbose, I hope...
>
> m
>
>
>
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Will Senn
> *To:* m100@lists.bitchin100.com
> *Sent:* Saturday, October 29, 2022 10:16 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [M100] Notoriously S.L.O.W BASIC posted - help speeding it
> up appreciated
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> I'm curious about the COM stuff. In a later note you said:
>
> It's actually sorta been fun programming on the 'real' M100; I left a
> download running on the PC and every time I wanted to backup an interim
> version just in case, I just pressed F3 and F7 (which I'd programmed with
> the COM stats).
>
> and here, you say stuff about programming the function keys with
> "COM:88N1E"...
>
> It would be nice to be able to transfer / save from BASIC and/or my
> terminal on the Mac without the overhead of dl/TEENY.CO. I know enough to
> be dangerous and that the keys can easily be programmed to effectively type
> stuff. I'm just not clear on is how this works mechanically. Are you in
> BASIC, typing away, having just fixed some bit and are ready to SAVE it
> remotely, so you press F3 and voila, it just does it, or do you press F3
> and then do something to get it transferring, or what?
>
> I have the cables hooked up and usually, I:
> 1. SAVE from BASIC to .DO or .BA
> 2. Start up DL on the Mac side, if it isn't already running in my ~/m100
> directory
> 3. Press F8 to get menu
> 4. Select TEENY.CO
> 5. Type S HEXIT .DO
> 6. Watch it complete without error (so long as HEXIT.DO doesn't already
> exist, I think)
>
> What I'm imagining happen is:
> 1. SAVE from BASIC to .DO or .BA
> 2. Press F3
> 3. Magically a file is sent and received on the Mac (where does it's name
> come from?)
> 4. Celebration
> or
> 1. F2 from BASIC
> 2. Start sending a file (how?) from the Mac
> 3. Celebration
>
> Just curious!
>
> Will
>
>
> On 10/28/22 12:30 PM, MikeS wrote:
>
>
> Yeah, that's a setup I used for a while, sort of a poor man's
>
