[Machinekit] Re: Connecting HAL components across multiple CPUs

[Joshua Dickerson]

Hi there!  Thanks so much for your suggestions, currently looking into and 
will get back to everyone on what I learn. 

On Tuesday, September 18, 2018 at 8:36:00 AM UTC-5, mngr wrote:
>
> I am not that expert on machinekit, but I will try to give my opinion, 
> maybe someone will support or correct it
>
> The problem is communicating with lots of machine pieces, in Machinekit 
> exists Machinetalk but it makes more Machinekit instances talking to each 
> other (and Machinekit runs on Linux).
> It is based on ZMQ, that requires some Unix system calls, so moving to MCU 
> world may be quite hard, always if it is possible to port ZMQ to firmware.
>
> Talking about low level communication protocol CAN may be a good option, 
> since it is already used in automotive and supports multiple endpoints 
> talking (one at time) with a master. Or even multi master if needed. But 
> this would require some work above that comunicate in a proper way with 
> machinekit, at least a HAL module/ direver that manages the CAN 
> communication and shows all the connected MCU to the other HAL module
>
> Another system that try to solve this is EtherCAT, LinuxCNC can surely 
> talk with ethercat modules
> I tried it a couple of years ago, and i found that the industrial world 
> use EtherCAT on windows and has the xml config file written in a different 
> way from the LinuxCNC world.
> Manufacturer will give the config in the standard way, and you will have 
> to translate it for yourself.
> For example, I made a xml file to work with that arduino shield 
>  , 
> but I died while trying to interface with a Weidmuller EtherCAT module 
> (again, it was a couple of years ago, and I am a very beginner). 
>
> talking about the Raspberry, I have seen everyone avoided it's Ethernet 
> controller is on the USB-bus, so it's inherently non-real-time. Other 
> boards available are the asus Tinkerboard, or the banana Pi, but I have 
> seen few people using that alternatives.
>
> mngr
>
> Il giorno martedì 18 settembre 2018 05:07:43 UTC+2, Joshua Dickerson ha 
> scritto:
>>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> I am working on and off again on writing my own machine controller, 
>> largely to understand LinuxCNC and related projects like MachineKit.  For 
>> reference, here's the controller I wrote running a few years ago:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qasLhuJFZNU
>>
>>
>> I'm starting back up on the project.  Right now it works very similar to 
>> LinuxCNC, a shared memory space, all HAL components running on a single 
>> controller.  What I want to do is make a machine controller that could have 
>> conceivably worked on 80s MCUs, but also work on single desktop machine.  
>> The idea would be to have a distributed HAL that would function across 
>> multiple MCUs- but of course works in the degenerate case of a single 
>> machine/PC with shared memory space, as with LinuxCNC.  For instance, there 
>> would be a main MCU which reads files, runs the GUI/HMI and handles the 
>> trajectory planning, homing, probing, tapping, etc.  There would also be a 
>> dedicated MCU for each joint controller which is updating encoders and 
>> sensors, generating step pulses, closing servo loops, etc.  
>>
>> My naive approach would be to have a registry of output signals which 
>> includes which MCU each actually resides on.  So if a particular HAL 
>> component task is reading a signal that's already on the MCU it's running 
>> on, it's immediately returned- otherwise it pulls the data over a network 
>> layer (which could shared memory bus, RS485, ethernet, etc.)  Is there 
>> something out there that does this?  Maybe some kind of mutant hybrid 
>> between HAL/NML/SCADA?
>>
>> Of course this complicates things over simply using pointers to a single 
>> shared memory space.  I also get the sense the linuxCNC group balks at this 
>> kind of idea, they want to keep it all on one machine in the interest of 
>> latency anyway.  Just searching various machine controller project 
>> communities for where this kind of idea might be interesting.  I would 
>> really like something like a Raspberry Pi tied into a MCU which does all 
>> the hard-RT/IO stuff, but not quite in the way Klipper does it.  Klipper 
>> basically sends commands to be followed at some specific time stamp.  
>> That's actually pretty cool, but I want something that allows for more 
>> feedback and flexibility between the various systems.  
>>
>> Anyhow, thanks in advance for your input.
>>
>

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Re: [Machinekit] Connecting HAL components across multiple CPUs

[Joshua Dickerson]

Wow thanks, Charles!  Never heard of Zero-MQ, totally diving into the 
material now! :)  Also reading into haltalk so I can better understand how 
it works.

Hopefully I can learn enough to contribute meaningfully to the project!  
Thanks again!

On Tuesday, September 18, 2018 at 8:29:29 AM UTC-5, Charles Steinkuehler 
wrote:
>
> On 9/17/2018 10:07 PM, Joshua Dickerson wrote: 
> > 
> > My naive approach would be to have a registry of output signals which 
> > includes which MCU each actually resides on.  So if a particular HAL 
> > component task is reading a signal that's already on the MCU it's 
> running 
> > on, it's immediately returned- otherwise it pulls the data over a 
> network 
> > layer (which could shared memory bus, RS485, ethernet, etc.)  Is there 
> > something out there that does this?  Maybe some kind of mutant hybrid 
> > between HAL/NML/SCADA? 
> > 
> > Of course this complicates things over simply using pointers to a single 
> > shared memory space.  I also get the sense the linuxCNC group balks at 
> this 
> > kind of idea, they want to keep it all on one machine in the interest of 
> > latency anyway.  Just searching various machine controller project 
> > communities for where this kind of idea might be interesting.  I would 
> > really like something like a Raspberry Pi tied into a MCU which does all 
> > the hard-RT/IO stuff, but not quite in the way Klipper does it.  Klipper 
> > basically sends commands to be followed at some specific time stamp.   
> > That's actually pretty cool, but I want something that allows for more 
> > feedback and flexibility between the various systems.   
>
> Look into the haltalk stuff using Zero-MQ messaging.  It was 
> specifically written to enable connecting various HAL "islands" which 
> may or may not have a shared memory space.  The messaging protocol is 
> transport agnostic, so you can setup HAL nodes that communicate via 
> shared memory, Ethernet, serial, or whatever. 
>
> The existing haltalk may not do everything you want, but it's probably 
> the best place to start: 
>
> https://machinekoder.com/machinetalk-explained-part-4-hal-remote/ 
> 
>  
>
> -- 
> Charles Steinkuehler 
> cha...@steinkuehler.net  
>

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Re: [Machinekit] Re: Connecting HAL components across multiple CPUs

[Joshua Dickerson]

Thanks for all the suggestions, Chris!  I would have to say you truly have 
the mindset of a developer, all important questions to address before any 
major undertaking.

I have ported my machine controller over to use FreeRTOS, totally agree 
about not reinventing the wheel there.  Right now the sole purpose of my 
machine controller is to educate myself on machine controllers and 
industrial control systems.  Some of the different architectures out there 
make more sense to me, but only after my own attempts at writing my own. I 
also chose the particular route I'm on because it's more challenging (and 
possibly more flexible.)  Also, sometimes solving problems like this lead 
to breakthroughs for other related problems, right?

What would be cool is to have a very light weight, real-time equivalent of 
SCADA.  Something with a centralized "DB" so the data is always consistent, 
some provision for logging and monitoring to alert when things goes wrong.  
In the immediate future, I am leaning towards a shared memory node that all 
the other systems go through. Might be a good starting point before 
figuring out something more distributed. 

 

On Tuesday, September 18, 2018 at 11:23:01 AM UTC-5, Chris Albertson wrote:
>
> Again the first step is to define the kind of things the machine is going 
> to do.  Generally there is a divide between machines that run a fixed 
> script and those that react to what they see in the environment and 
> generate trajectories in real-time.
>
> Then decide what you are going to use to build the controller with.   
> Today I would use standardized MCU development boards.  These cost between 
> $2 and $16 each.  Connect them with serial links (CAN BUS, Ethercat, SPI, 
> I2C or whatever...)Then use a generic PC/Mac/iPhone browser interface 
> for the user interface and display.  You might even allow multiple 
> screens.  I can imagine a big monitor on the wall and a hand held 
> controller running in an Android tablet.
>
> But you have to chose al this up front.
>
> I hate to say it but the "run everything on one big computer" design that 
> MK and LCNC use is not something I'd use in a new design.  
>
> Also, to avoid massive wheel re-invention run an RTOS on the micro 
> controllers.  It will handle the details of running timers, I/O devices bus 
> protocols and task scheduling and allows you to swap out hardware with no 
> code change.
>
> The last question to answer is "Why?" what will your controller do that 
> others don't?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 6:36 AM mngr > 
> wrote:
>
>> I am not that expert on machinekit, but I will try to give my opinion, 
>> maybe someone will support or correct it
>>
>> The problem is communicating with lots of machine pieces, in Machinekit 
>> exists Machinetalk but it makes more Machinekit instances talking to each 
>> other (and Machinekit runs on Linux).
>> It is based on ZMQ, that requires some Unix system calls, so moving to 
>> MCU world may be quite hard, always if it is possible to port ZMQ to 
>> firmware.
>>
>> Talking about low level communication protocol CAN may be a good option, 
>> since it is already used in automotive and supports multiple endpoints 
>> talking (one at time) with a master. Or even multi master if needed. But 
>> this would require some work above that comunicate in a proper way with 
>> machinekit, at least a HAL module/ direver that manages the CAN 
>> communication and shows all the connected MCU to the other HAL module
>>
>> Another system that try to solve this is EtherCAT, LinuxCNC can surely 
>> talk with ethercat modules
>> I tried it a couple of years ago, and i found that the industrial world 
>> use EtherCAT on windows and has the xml config file written in a different 
>> way from the LinuxCNC world.
>> Manufacturer will give the config in the standard way, and you will have 
>> to translate it for yourself.
>> For example, I made a xml file to work with that arduino shield 
>>  , 
>> but I died while trying to interface with a Weidmuller EtherCAT module 
>> (again, it was a couple of years ago, and I am a very beginner). 
>>
>> talking about the Raspberry, I have seen everyone avoided it's Ethernet 
>> controller is on the USB-bus, so it's inherently non-real-time. Other 
>> boards available are the asus Tinkerboard, or the banana Pi, but I have 
>> seen few people using that alternatives.
>>
>> mngr
>>
>> Il giorno martedì 18 settembre 2018 05:07:43 UTC+2, Joshua Dickerson ha 
>> scritto:
>>>
>>> Hello everyone,
>>>
>>> I am working on and off again on writing my own machine controller, 
>>> largely to understand LinuxCNC and related projects like MachineKit.  For 
>>> reference, here's the controller I wrote running a few years ago:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qasLhuJFZNU
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm starting back up on the project.  Right now it works very similar to 
>>> LinuxCNC, a shared memory space, all HAL 

Re: [Machinekit] using hal_spi module

[schoone...@gmail.com]

  
  
You are not running with DEBUG=5

Do so and your linuxcnc.log will have info as to what failed.

Also as I said in my last reply, it does not look as though you have
a realtime kernel, irrespective of what you have named your pi.

On 21/09/18 15:31, mngr wrote:


  
Hi everyone,


I am sorry to post another noob question here, but,


I am trying to use the hal module hal_spi, shortly I tried
  with 


  
  loadrt hal_spi


  in the hal file, but 

  
  CRAMPS.hal:15:
  insmod failed, returned -1:
  rtapi_rpc(): reply
  timeout
See /var/log/linuxcnc.log for more
  information.


  
  in the log

  
  Sep 21 14:22:09
  realtimepi msgd:0:
  startup pid=5979
  flavor=posix rtlevel=1
  usrlevel=1
  halsize=524288 shm=Posix cc=gcc 6.3.0 20170516
   version=unknown
Sep 21 14:22:09
  realtimepi msgd:0: ØMQ=4.2.1 czmq=4.0.2
  protobuf=3.0.0
  atomics=gcc intrinsics  
   libwebsockets=2.0.3
Sep 21 14:22:09
  realtimepi msgd:0:
  configured: sha=b87920504
Sep 21 14:22:09
  realtimepi msgd:0: built:      Sep 18 2018 16:43:17 sha=b87920504
Sep 21 14:22:09
  realtimepi msgd:0:
  register_stuff: actual hostname as
  announced by avahi='realtimepi.local'
Sep 21 14:22:09
  realtimepi msgd:0:
  zeroconf: registering: 'Log
  service on realtimepi.local pid 5979'
Sep 21 14:22:10
  realtimepi rtapi:0:
  rtapi_msgd went away, exiting
Sep 21 14:22:10
  realtimepi msgd:0:
  zeroconf: registered 'Log
  service on realtimepi.local pid 5979'
  _machinekit._tcp 0 TXT "uuid=a42c8c6b-4025-4f83-ba28-dad21114744a" "instance=b9c730a2-bda9-11e8-bcc3-b827eb4bcf42" "service=log" "dsn=ipc:///tmp/0.log.a42c8c6b-4025-4f83-ba28-dad21114744a"


  
  I tried launching machinekit without it and adding it later
  using halcmd loadrt hal_spi, but with similar results





should I give it some arguments? I don't know how to
  understand how to write them from the code...
Maybe the module is old and has lost some compatibility?


right now i am executing from

  
  Linux
  realtimepi 4.14.69-v7+ #1141
  SMP Mon Sep 10 15:26:29 BST 2018 armv7l GNU/Linux


  Debian Stretch, Machinekit compiled from source

maybe should I explicit the path to hal_spi?


mngr

  
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[Machinekit] using hal_spi module

[mngr]

Hi everyone,

I am sorry to post another noob question here, but,

I am trying to use the hal module hal_spi, shortly I tried with 
loadrt hal_spi
in the hal file, but 
CRAMPS.hal:15: insmod failed, returned -1:
rtapi_rpc(): reply timeout
See /var/log/linuxcnc.log for more information.

in the log
Sep 21 14:22:09 realtimepi msgd:0: startup pid=5979 flavor=posix rtlevel=1 
usrlevel=1 halsize=524288 shm=Posix cc=gcc 6.3.0 20170516  version=unknown
Sep 21 14:22:09 realtimepi msgd:0: ØMQ=4.2.1 czmq=4.0.2 protobuf=3.0.0 
atomics=gcc intrinsicslibwebsockets=2.0.3
Sep 21 14:22:09 realtimepi msgd:0: configured: sha=b87920504
Sep 21 14:22:09 realtimepi msgd:0: built:  Sep 18 2018 16:43:17 sha=
b87920504
Sep 21 14:22:09 realtimepi msgd:0: register_stuff: actual hostname as 
announced by avahi='realtimepi.local'
Sep 21 14:22:09 realtimepi msgd:0: zeroconf: registering: 'Log service on 
realtimepi.local pid 5979'
Sep 21 14:22:10 realtimepi rtapi:0: rtapi_msgd went away, exiting
Sep 21 14:22:10 realtimepi msgd:0: zeroconf: registered 'Log service on 
realtimepi.local pid 5979' _machinekit._tcp 0 TXT 
"uuid=a42c8c6b-4025-4f83-ba28-dad21114744a" 
"instance=b9c730a2-bda9-11e8-bcc3-b827eb4bcf42" "service=log" 
"dsn=ipc:///tmp/0.log.a42c8c6b-4025-4f83-ba28-dad21114744a"

I tried launching machinekit without it and adding it later using halcmd 
loadrt hal_spi, but with similar results


should I give it some arguments? I don't know how to understand how to 
write them from the code...
Maybe the module is old and has lost some compatibility?

right now i am executing from
Linux realtimepi 4.14.69-v7+ #1141 SMP Mon Sep 10 15:26:29 BST 2018 armv7l 
GNU/Linux
Debian Stretch, Machinekit compiled from source
maybe should I explicit the path to hal_spi?

mngr

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Re: [Machinekit] Re: Error when install Machinekit on Raspberry Pi 3, Raspian Stretch

[schoone...@gmail.com]

  
  
I have just done a fresh clone of machinekit, built on a rt-preempt
kernel (with a posix) one also installed and I get

Sep 21 14:52:00 INTEL-i7 msgd:0: startup pid=14733 flavor=rt-preempt
rtlevel=5 usrlevel=5 halsize=524288 shm=Posix cc=gcc 8.2.0 
version=unknown
Sep 21 14:52:00 INTEL-i7 msgd:0: ØMQ=4.2.5 czmq=4.1.1 protobuf=3.0.0
atomics=gcc intrinsics    libwebsockets=2.0.3.
Sep 21 14:52:00 INTEL-i7 msgd:0: configured: sha=f63b8a215
Sep 21 14:52:00 INTEL-i7 msgd:0: built:  Sep 21 2018 14:50:29
sha=f63b8a215

uname -a

Linux INTEL-i7 4.18.0-1-rt-amd64 #1 SMP PREEMPT RT Debian 4.18.8-1
(2018-09-18) x86_64 GNU/Linux

If your kernel does not say it is RT and PREEMPT, then it probably
isn't.

On 21/09/18 14:40, mngr wrote:


  
I compiled from source, using
  
  
./ configure --with-platform-raspberry
  


and machinekit works.
  



I randomly gave a look in the /var/log/linuxcnc.log file
  and I found that

  
  Sep 21 13:24:10
  realtimepi msgd:0:
  startup pid=4467 flavor=posix
  rtlevel=1
  usrlevel=1
  halsize=524288 shm=Posix cc=gcc 6.3.0 20170516
   version=unknown


even if 


pi@realtimepi:~ $ uname
  -a
  Linux
realtimepi 4.14.69-v7+ #1141
SMP Mon Sep 10 15:26:29 BST 2018 armv7l GNU/Linux
  
  


should'nt flavor be preempt-rt?



did I missed something while compiling? 





Il giorno martedì 18 settembre 2018 14:40:20 UTC+2, mngr ha
scritto:

  
Thanks Tac!!
i was just about to ask how did you make a debian
  stretch real-time image for the Pi, thank you very much!


Il giorno lunedì 17 settembre 2018 19:54:18 UTC+2, Tac Huynh
ha scritto:

  
Thanks Schooner.
Latest update worked.


For other people using the raspberry pi. I used the
  ready made image from RealtimePi.


https://github.com/guysoft/RealtimePi


saving a lot of time for patching the preEmpt
  realtime kernel

Tac.


On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 7:41:29 AM UTC-7, Tac
Huynh wrote:

  
Please help:
How do I fix this installation error?
Thanks,
Tac.


I tried to install Machinekit on Raspberry Pi
  3, Raspian Stretch, got following errors:



  sudo apt-get install machinekit-rt-preempt


Setting up xdot (0.7-2) ...
Setting up machinekit-rt-preempt (0.1.1536747208.git041712d-1~stretch) ...
ln: failed to create symbolic link '/usr/lib/linuxcnc/rt-preempt/pru_generic.bin': No such file or directory
ln: failed to create symbolic link '/usr/lib/linuxcnc/rt-preempt/pru_generic.dbg': No such file or directory
ln: failed to create symbolic link '/usr/lib/linuxcnc/rt-preempt/pru_decamux.bin': No such file or directory
ln: failed to create symbolic link '/usr/lib/linuxcnc/rt-preempt/pru_decamux.dbg': No such file or directory
dpkg: error processing package machinekit-rt-preempt (--configure):
 subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1
dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of machinekit:
 machinekit depends on machinekit-rt-threads; however:
  Package machinekit-rt-threads is not installed.
  Package machinekit-rt-preempt which provides machinekit-rt-threads is not configured yet.

dpkg: error processing package machinekit (--configure):
 dependency problems - leaving unconfigured
Processing triggers for libc-bin (2.24-11+deb9u3) ...
Processing triggers for systemd (232-25+deb9u2) ...
Errors were encountered while processing:
 machinekit-rt-preempt
 machinekit
E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)



  

  

  

  
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[Machinekit] Re: Error when install Machinekit on Raspberry Pi 3, Raspian Stretch

[mngr]

I compiled from source, using 

./ configure --with-platform-raspberry

and machinekit works.


I randomly gave a look in the /var/log/linuxcnc.log file and I found that
Sep 21 13:24:10 realtimepi msgd:0: startup pid=4467 *flavor=posix* rtlevel=1 
usrlevel=1 halsize=524288 shm=Posix cc=gcc 6.3.0 20170516  version=unknown
even if 
pi@realtimepi:~ $ uname -a
Linux realtimepi 4.14.69-v7+ #1141 SMP Mon Sep 10 15:26:29 BST 2018 armv7l 
GNU/Linux

should'nt flavor be preempt-rt?

did I missed something while compiling? 


Il giorno martedì 18 settembre 2018 14:40:20 UTC+2, mngr ha scritto:
>
> Thanks Tac!!
> i was just about to ask how did you make a debian stretch real-time image 
> for the Pi, thank you very much!
>
> Il giorno lunedì 17 settembre 2018 19:54:18 UTC+2, Tac Huynh ha scritto:
>>
>> Thanks Schooner.
>> Latest update worked.
>>
>> For other people using the raspberry pi. I used the ready made image from 
>> RealtimePi.
>>
>> https://github.com/guysoft/RealtimePi
>>
>> saving a lot of time for patching the preEmpt realtime kernel
>> Tac.
>>
>> On Friday, September 14, 2018 at 7:41:29 AM UTC-7, Tac Huynh wrote:
>>>
>>> Please help:
>>> How do I fix this installation error?
>>> Thanks,
>>> Tac.
>>>
>>> I tried to install Machinekit on Raspberry Pi 3, Raspian Stretch, got 
>>> following errors:
>>>
>>> sudo apt-get install machinekit-rt-preempt
>>>
>>> 
>>> Setting up xdot (0.7-2) ...
>>> Setting up machinekit-rt-preempt (0.1.1536747208.git041712d-1~stretch) ...
>>> ln: failed to create symbolic link 
>>> '/usr/lib/linuxcnc/rt-preempt/pru_generic.bin': No such file or directory
>>> ln: failed to create symbolic link 
>>> '/usr/lib/linuxcnc/rt-preempt/pru_generic.dbg': No such file or directory
>>> ln: failed to create symbolic link 
>>> '/usr/lib/linuxcnc/rt-preempt/pru_decamux.bin': No such file or directory
>>> ln: failed to create symbolic link 
>>> '/usr/lib/linuxcnc/rt-preempt/pru_decamux.dbg': No such file or directory
>>> dpkg: error processing package machinekit-rt-preempt (--configure):
>>>  subprocess installed post-installation script returned error exit status 1
>>> dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of machinekit:
>>>  machinekit depends on machinekit-rt-threads; however:
>>>   Package machinekit-rt-threads is not installed.
>>>   Package machinekit-rt-preempt which provides machinekit-rt-threads is not 
>>> configured yet.
>>>
>>> dpkg: error processing package machinekit (--configure):
>>>  dependency problems - leaving unconfigured
>>> Processing triggers for libc-bin (2.24-11+deb9u3) ...
>>> Processing triggers for systemd (232-25+deb9u2) ...
>>> Errors were encountered while processing:
>>>  machinekit-rt-preempt
>>>  machinekit
>>> E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1)
>>>
>>>

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