Re: a no-homepage homepage for ports with dead homepages

[Rainer Müller]

On 2018-01-14 12:34, Jan Stary wrote:
> On Jan 12 11:12:17, rai...@macports.org wrote:
>> On 2018-01-11 22:22, Jan Stary wrote:
>>> What errors exactly will be "fixed" by that?
>>
>> It documents that the upstream homepage is gone for good. That helps to
>> understand this software is most likely a dead project.
> 
> Yes, but why set up a webpage for that?

Well, do you want to include the full text that is no on that wiki page
into base?

The wiki page also allows to update the information and instructions
without shipping new releases, which is good.

 PS : Personally, I think asking users for a new homepage, if there is one, 
 is better than just deleting the homepage variable requirement in 
 Portfiles.
>>>
>>> It might be useful to display a message when a port without a manpage is
>>> installed, saying something like you put on the page above, but shorter:
>>>
>>> $port does not have a manpage.
>>> Please let $maintainer know if you know where it is.
>>
>> This could add a lot of clutter,
> 
> So, two lines saying "this port does not have a homepage"
> is "clutter", but an extra non-homepage is not?
> How is it not the exact opposite?

I meant that printing this on installation is clutter. The link to the
NoHomepage wiki page would only be in 'port info' as usual.

>> I think the port notes should only contain information
>> relevant to its usage.
> 
> Why? No realy: why do you think the port's notes should _not_
> mention that the port does not have a homepage (yet an extra
> non-homepage should be set up to say that)?

Why should users be bothered and actively be informed that a port has no
homepage? Users will not care until they actually want to visit the
project homepage. In most cases there is nothing they or we can do about
it. Therefore I see no reason to include this in the port notes.

Rainer

Re: a no-homepage homepage for ports with dead homepages

[Jan Stary]

On Jan 12 11:12:17, rai...@macports.org wrote:
> On 2018-01-11 22:22, Jan Stary wrote:
> > On Jan 11 11:49:40, ken.cunningham.web...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> I've been prospecting MacPorts errors reported by repology 
> >> . A 
> >> common error is that the homepage 404s out.
> >>
> >> Many of these ports still work install correctly, but have no homepage, no 
> >> homepage can seem to be found, and there is none on archive.org.
> >>
> >> Rather than just have it error out forever, I made this page in the spirit 
> >> of the gentoo page:
> >>
> >> 
> 
> I like the idea of the placeholder wiki page with a detailed explanation.
> 
> >> If that is acceptable, I'd like to use it, or some variation of it, for 
> >> ports like biggersql, for example, to fix some of these errors.
> > 
> > What errors exactly will be "fixed" by that?
> 
> It documents that the upstream homepage is gone for good. That helps to
> understand this software is most likely a dead project.

Yes, but why set up a webpage for that?

> >> PS : Personally, I think asking users for a new homepage, if there is one, 
> >> is better than just deleting the homepage variable requirement in 
> >> Portfiles.
> > 
> > It might be useful to display a message when a port without a manpage is
> > installed, saying something like you put on the page above, but shorter:
> > 
> > $port does not have a manpage.
> > Please let $maintainer know if you know where it is.
> 
> This could add a lot of clutter,

So, two lines saying "this port does not have a homepage"
is "clutter", but an extra non-homepage is not?
How is it not the exact opposite?

> for example if a port is only installed as a dependency.

What difference foes it make whether a port without a homepage
is a dependency of something or not?

> I think the port notes should only contain information
> relevant to its usage.

Why? No realy: why do you think the port's notes should _not_
mention that the port does not have a homepage (yet an extra
non-homepage should be set up to say that)?

Jan

Re: a no-homepage homepage for ports with dead homepages

[Ken Cunningham]

On 2018-01-12, at 2:12 AM, Rainer Müller wrote:
> 
> Nit pick: I would have called it NoHomepage (small letter p), as the
> compound form seems to be more common than two words and it is used this
> way as Portfile option and in the wiki page itself.


Done. I always seem to want to CamelCase syllables. 


Last thing is master_sites assuming we want to keep the port, but if 
upstream is gone and we have the distfiles mirrored,

leave master_sites pointing nowhere, or make it 

https://distfiles.macports.org/portname



or is that some kind of circular nightmare?

Re: a no-homepage homepage for ports with dead homepages

[Rainer Müller]

On 2018-01-11 22:22, Jan Stary wrote:
> On Jan 11 11:49:40, ken.cunningham.web...@gmail.com wrote:
>> I've been prospecting MacPorts errors reported by repology 
>> . A 
>> common error is that the homepage 404s out.
>>
>> Many of these ports still work install correctly, but have no homepage, no 
>> homepage can seem to be found, and there is none on archive.org.
>>
>> Rather than just have it error out forever, I made this page in the spirit 
>> of the gentoo page:
>>
>> 

I like the idea of the placeholder wiki page with a detailed explanation.

>> If that is acceptable, I'd like to use it, or some variation of it, for 
>> ports like biggersql, for example, to fix some of these errors.
> 
> What errors exactly will be "fixed" by that?

It documents that the upstream homepage is gone for good. That helps to
understand this software is most likely a dead project.

Nit pick: I would have called it NoHomepage (small letter p), as the
compound form seems to be more common than two words and it is used this
way as Portfile option and in the wiki page itself.

>> PS : Personally, I think asking users for a new homepage, if there is one, 
>> is better than just deleting the homepage variable requirement in Portfiles.
> 
> It might be useful to display a message when a port without a manpage is
> installed, saying something like you put on the page above, but shorter:
> 
>   $port does not have a manpage.
>   Please let $maintainer know if you know where it is.

This could add a lot of clutter, for example if a port is only installed
as a dependency. I think the port notes should only contain information
relevant to its usage.

> At any rate, this would imho be better displayed automaticaly with 
> "port notes" - not explicitly in Portfile of course, but implicitly
> for ports without a manpage. Meaning they don't have one in the Portfile,
> as opposed to "it has this 'homepage', but it's not really its homepage".

We could use the above wiki page URL as the default value for the
homepage option, so not setting anything in the Portfile would use that.

Rainer

Re: a no-homepage homepage for ports with dead homepages

[Jan Stary]

s/manpage/homepage/g of course; sorry.

Jan

On Jan 11 22:22:10, h...@stare.cz wrote:
> On Jan 11 11:49:40, ken.cunningham.web...@gmail.com wrote:
> > 
> > On 2018-01-11, at 9:37 AM, Ken Cunningham wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > But if I can find a saved one at archive.org, that would be better, to be 
> > > sure.
> > > 
> > > K
> > 
> > I've been prospecting MacPorts errors reported by repology 
> > . A 
> > common error is that the homepage 404s out.
> > 
> > Many of these ports still work install correctly, but have no homepage, no 
> > homepage can seem to be found, and there is none on archive.org.
> > 
> > Rather than just have it error out forever, I made this page in the spirit 
> > of the gentoo page:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > If that is acceptable, I'd like to use it, or some variation of it, for 
> > ports like biggersql, for example, to fix some of these errors.
> 
> What errors exactly will be "fixed" by that?
> 
> > PS : Personally, I think asking users for a new homepage, if there is one, 
> > is better than just deleting the homepage variable requirement in Portfiles.
> 
> It might be useful to display a message when a port without a manpage is
> installed, saying something like you put on the page above, but shorter:
> 
>   $port does not have a manpage.
>   Please let $maintainer know if you know where it is.
> 
> (But note that all the ports listed on that repology page have no maintainer.
> And honestly, how many times has it happened in the past that a user came up
> with "hey, this homepage you thought was dead is actually here now"?)
> 
> At any rate, this would imho be better displayed automaticaly with 
> "port notes" - not explicitly in Portfile of course, but implicitly
> for ports without a manpage. Meaning they don't have one in the Portfile,
> as opposed to "it has this 'homepage', but it's not really its homepage".
> 
> 
>   Jan
> 

Re: a no-homepage homepage for ports with dead homepages

[Ken Cunningham]

On 2018-01-11, at 9:37 AM, Ken Cunningham wrote:


> 
> But if I can find a saved one at archive.org, that would be better, to be 
> sure.
> 
> K

I've been prospecting MacPorts errors reported by repology 
. A 
common error is that the homepage 404s out.

Many of these ports still work install correctly, but have no homepage, no 
homepage can seem to be found, and there is none on archive.org.

Rather than just have it error out forever, I made this page in the spirit of 
the gentoo page:




If that is acceptable, I'd like to use it, or some variation of it, for ports 
like biggersql, for example, to fix some of these errors.

(Granted, some of these ports might just be ripe for deletion from MacPorts, 
but I'll submit that is another issue to be handled separately.)

K

PS : Personally, I think asking users for a new homepage, if there is one, is 
better than just deleting the homepage variable requirement in Portfiles.

Re: a no-homepage homepage for ports with dead homepages

[Ken Cunningham]

On 2018-01-11, at 9:30 AM, Jan Stary wrote:
> 
> Voila, that's its homepage then.
> 

Well now we're back to where I started :>

But if I can find a saved one at archive.org, that would be better, to be sure.

K

Re: a no-homepage homepage for ports with dead homepages

[Jan Stary]

On Jan 11 08:42:59, ken.cunningham.web...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> On 2018-01-11, at 12:24 AM, Jan Stary wrote:
> > 
> > For ports that don't have a homepage, the simplest thing imho
> > is not to declare one in the Portfile.
> 
> a: not possible
> 
> $ port lint
> --->  Verifying Portfile for aee
> Error: Missing required variable: homepage

Eh, that's because lint was _made_ to complain about this,
which doesn't mean it's not possible.

> b: IMHO not desirable

How is it desirable to pretend a piece of software
does have a homepage when it does not?

"But sir, I have to put _something_ under 'homepage' on this here form".

> > If the source code cannot be downloaded from somewhere,
> > how does the port even exist?
> 
> MacPorts mirrors most distfiles for this reason, amongst others.

Voila, that's its homepage then.

Jan

Re: a no-homepage homepage for ports with dead homepages

[Ryan Schmidt]

On Jan 10, 2018, at 20:32, Ken Cunningham wrote:

> I like this idea from gentoo, for a homepage we can use when old homepages 
> disappear, eg port "aee".
> 
> 
> 
> We might do something like this as well, perhaps. It assumes the source has 
> been mirrored somewhere reachable.
> 
> Unless I find out we already have one that I don't know about :>
> 
> Dunno what you do about master_sites in such a case, exactly ...

We typically use archive.org links for both, if possible.

Re: a no-homepage homepage for ports with dead homepages

[Jan Stary]

On Jan 10 18:32:37, ken.cunningham.web...@gmail.com wrote:
> I like this idea from gentoo, for a homepage we can use when old homepages 
> disappear, eg port "aee".
> 
> 
> 
> We might do something like this as well, perhaps. It assumes the source has 
> been mirrored somewhere reachable.

What's the point of having a "homepage" saying "there is no homepage"?
For ports that don't have a homepage, the simplest thing imho
is not to declare one in the Portfile.

> Dunno what you do about master_sites in such a case, exactly ...

If the source code cannot be downloaded from somewhere,
how does the port even exist?

Jan