Re: trimming down verbocity but still getting needed info

[Dean Hudson]

You should just try using VO-j to navigate/read the text of the message.  
Pressing return on a message in the inbox will open a new window.  THis is why 
VO is reading info from the new window.  VO-j moves the cursor to the content 
of the message, interacts with the content, and starts reading.  THis is a very 
fast way of reading through email.

TO get back to the messages table, press VO-j.
On Dec 2, 2009, at 1:11 PM, James & Nash wrote:

> Hi Ray, 
> You wrote:
>> Every time I press enter on a message to open and read it, I get told about 
>> every kind of slider and control there is in the message.  What I want to 
>> happen is that when I open a message, Voice Over just starts reading the 
>> text itself.  I know I could just go in to the VO Utility and trim the 
>> verbosity down to medium or even low; but, then, if I did that, how would I 
>> get information about sliders, scroll areas, and so forth when I needed it?
> 
> There is another  option in the VO utility called custom. You could set your 
> desired options there, although I've never been able to get my head around 
> this or make the verbosity thing work as it want it to. 
> 
> TC
> 
> James 
> On 2 Dec 2009, at 20:36, Ray Foret jr wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Every time I press enter on a message to open and read it, I get told about 
>> every kind of slider and control there is in the message.  What I want to 
>> happen is that when I open a message, Voice Over just starts reading the 
>> text itself.  I know I could just go in to the VO Utility and trim the 
>> verbosity down to medium or even low; but, then, if I did that, how would I 
>> get information about sliders, scroll areas, and so forth when I needed it?
>> 
>> Thanks.
>> 
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> 
>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>> 
>> Now a Mac user!!!
>> 
>> Phone
>> +1 (985) 360-3614
>> E-mail:
>> rforetjr at comcast.net
>> Skype Name:
>> barefootedray
>> 
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Re: setting up iPhone

[Donal Fitzpatrick]

Yep perfectly.
On 3 Dec 2009, at 22:35, william lomas wrote:

> did it work?
> 
> On 3 Dec 2009, at 21:54, Donal Fitzpatrick wrote:
> 
>> Will that's a super idea...  Should have thought of it myself.
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks very much.
>> 
>> On 3 Dec 2009, at 21:10, william lomas wrote:
>> 
>>> hi why dont you put the card back in your other phone, turn off the
>>> pin feature for now and then activate
>>> 
>>> On 3 Dec 2009, at 21:06, Donal Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>> 
 Hi all,
 
 So I finally took the plunge and bought the device.  However, an
 interesting "chicken and egg" situation has emerged.
 
 I have a PIN on my sim card.  I've inserted the card correctly, and
 plugged the iPhone into my mac.  However, iTunes is saying it can't
 activate the phone because of the SIM pin.  There also does not seem
 to be anywhere to activate voiceover.
 
 So the situation I find myself in is that iTunes can't activate the
 phone until i unlock it (by entering the pin) and I can't enter the
 pin without voiceover.
 
 Has anyone encountered this before?
 
 Cheers,
 
 Donal
 
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Re: setting up iPhone

[william lomas]

did it work?

On 3 Dec 2009, at 21:54, Donal Fitzpatrick wrote:

> Will that's a super idea...  Should have thought of it myself.
>
>
> Thanks very much.
>
> On 3 Dec 2009, at 21:10, william lomas wrote:
>
>> hi why dont you put the card back in your other phone, turn off the
>> pin feature for now and then activate
>>
>> On 3 Dec 2009, at 21:06, Donal Fitzpatrick wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> So I finally took the plunge and bought the device.  However, an
>>> interesting "chicken and egg" situation has emerged.
>>>
>>> I have a PIN on my sim card.  I've inserted the card correctly, and
>>> plugged the iPhone into my mac.  However, iTunes is saying it can't
>>> activate the phone because of the SIM pin.  There also does not seem
>>> to be anywhere to activate voiceover.
>>>
>>> So the situation I find myself in is that iTunes can't activate the
>>> phone until i unlock it (by entering the pin) and I can't enter the
>>> pin without voiceover.
>>>
>>> Has anyone encountered this before?
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Donal
>>>
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Re: Importing audiobooks into Itunes continued

[Brett Campbell]

I thought the join files option would do the trick.  Another idea that comes to 
mind is going into iTunes, select your created audio book, use command I to get 
info, select options and check the box that says Part of a gapless album.
.  If this doesn't work, I'm wondering if the space between the tracks is dead 
air on the actual file, rather than space between the files.  


Brett C.

On Dec 3, 2009, at 1:11 PM, Daniel Rowe wrote:

> Hi all.
> 
> I tried using the join function in Audiobook Builder but it still leaves a 
> little gap between each track.
> Any more ideas on how I could fix this?
> 
> Thanksin advance,
> 
> Dannie
> 
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Re: setting up iPhone

[Donal Fitzpatrick]

Will that's a super idea...  Should have thought of it myself.


Thanks very much.

On 3 Dec 2009, at 21:10, william lomas wrote:

> hi why dont you put the card back in your other phone, turn off the  
> pin feature for now and then activate
> 
> On 3 Dec 2009, at 21:06, Donal Fitzpatrick wrote:
> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> So I finally took the plunge and bought the device.  However, an  
>> interesting "chicken and egg" situation has emerged.
>> 
>> I have a PIN on my sim card.  I've inserted the card correctly, and  
>> plugged the iPhone into my mac.  However, iTunes is saying it can't  
>> activate the phone because of the SIM pin.  There also does not seem  
>> to be anywhere to activate voiceover.
>> 
>> So the situation I find myself in is that iTunes can't activate the  
>> phone until i unlock it (by entering the pin) and I can't enter the  
>> pin without voiceover.
>> 
>> Has anyone encountered this before?
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Donal
>> 
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Re: setting up iPhone

[william lomas]

hi why dont you put the card back in your other phone, turn off the  
pin feature for now and then activate

On 3 Dec 2009, at 21:06, Donal Fitzpatrick wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> So I finally took the plunge and bought the device.  However, an  
> interesting "chicken and egg" situation has emerged.
>
> I have a PIN on my sim card.  I've inserted the card correctly, and  
> plugged the iPhone into my mac.  However, iTunes is saying it can't  
> activate the phone because of the SIM pin.  There also does not seem  
> to be anywhere to activate voiceover.
>
> So the situation I find myself in is that iTunes can't activate the  
> phone until i unlock it (by entering the pin) and I can't enter the  
> pin without voiceover.
>
> Has anyone encountered this before?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Donal
>
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Re: Accessing Project Gutenberg

[James & Nash]

Thanks Esther, 

I'll try this out.
On 3 Dec 2009, at 19:47, Esther wrote:

> Hi James, Chris, Richie, and Others,
> 
> There's the Bookworm online ePub ebook reading platform that O'Reilly is 
> hosting:
> 
> http://bookworm.oreilly.com/
> 
> I did try this out, and it has a particularly simple interface for requesting 
> and downloading books in ePub format from Project Gutenberg.  I checked this 
> out a while ago as part of my explorations of potential ways of reading 
> e-books on the iPod Touch and iPhone, and standard format issues.  The ePub 
> format looks to be the closest thing to an open (non-DRM) standard.  The 
> Bookworm web interface works.  You have to sign up for an account so that you 
> can log in.  However, in Safari the annoying thing is that I keep hearing 
> some extraneous information that is in the outer frame (outside the ebook) 
> when I read page to page. (Everything else is fine and accessible).  If I 
> stuck with this, I'd probably see whether there was a way of accessing the 
> ePub formats in the local library that is set up for you, and try to convert 
> the formats to PDF for preview using Stanza Desktop.
> 
> On the actual iPhone/iPod Touch, the Stanza app interface has a very simple 
> way to search and download free public domain books from Project Gutenberg by 
> choosing "ManyBooks" in the online catalog list. The only problem is that 
> Stanza isn't quite yet up to handling reading through all these books 
> automatically and painlessly with VoiceOver yet -- and I don't want to have 
> to touch every page to start the next reading.
> 
> If you go to the Blind Cool Tech site, you can look for a podcast on Ebook 
> Reading that a windows users did about Bookworm back in August.
> 
> HTH
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Esther
> 
> James & Nash wrote:
> 
>> Hi Chris
>> 
>> You wrote:
>>> So isn't project gutenberg just a web site where I can download various 
>>> formats of out-of-copyright books? What does the client do?
>> 
>> Yes PG is just that, however, a client would give immediate  access to 
>> everything rather than having to navigate the website.  Perhaps a bit lazy, 
>> but with the client you may be able to search in different ways than are 
>> available on the site.
>> 
>> TC
>> James 
>> James 
>> On 2 Dec 2009, at 20:31, Chris Blouch wrote:
>> 
>>> So isn't project gutenberg just a web site where I can download various 
>>> formats of out-of-copyright books? What does the client do?
>>> 
>>> CB
>>> 
>>> James & Nash wrote:
 
 Hi Richie,
 
 Good to hear from you. We've not spoken in a long time. 
 
 Thanks for the heads up on the Project Gutenberg situation.
 
 Please get in touch off list if you fancy a chat.
 
 TC
 
 James 
 On 1 Dec 2009, at 23:29, Richie Gardenhire wrote:
 
   
> Greg Kearney is working on writing a program which will give us access  
> to the Gutenberg project site so we can download books from that  
> site.  There are probably others working on similar software.  Richie  
> Gardenhire, Anchorage,Alaska.
> 
> 
> On Dec 1, 2009, at 1:03 PM, James & Nash wrote:
> 
> Hi list,
> 
> On Windows, the Webbie application suite has a fantastic app for  
> accessing the Project Gutenberg site. Does anything like this exist  
> for the Mac? I know that there is one called Guten, but as yet, I've  
> not got it to work. How do people find accessing the Gutenberg site,  
> and do they have any tips?
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to read this.
> 
> TC
> 
> James
> 
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setting up iPhone

[Donal Fitzpatrick]

Hi all,

So I finally took the plunge and bought the device.  However, an interesting 
"chicken and egg" situation has emerged.  

I have a PIN on my sim card.  I've inserted the card correctly, and plugged the 
iPhone into my mac.  However, iTunes is saying it can't activate the phone 
because of the SIM pin.  There also does not seem to be anywhere to activate 
voiceover.  

So the situation I find myself in is that iTunes can't activate the phone until 
i unlock it (by entering the pin) and I can't enter the pin without voiceover.

Has anyone encountered this before?

Cheers,

Donal

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Re: Multilingual Braille

[David Hole]

Hello.
I just wanna thank ye so much for this one, Anne.
But a little question here...
How old are the norwegian braille table? Is it the one that I got from
you earlier this year - wich was the 2004 revision (or what it is
called)?
If so, I'd hope you'll update to the newest one. If there's something
I can do to help, just ask :)

-David

On 10/13/09, Anne Robertson  wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> Spanish Braille is now available in the CeciMac multilingual Braille
> package which can be downloaded from:
> 
> This link downloads the package directly, without you having to
> negotiate your way around a site in French.
>
> The included languages are:
> Arabic, Danish, French, German, Greek/Coptic, Hebrew, Italian,
> Norwegian, Russian, Spanish, Swedish and US Unicode. The pop-up menu
> now includes specific items for all of these, as well as the original
> Apple US English.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Anne
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Med vennlig hilsen
David Hole !

Veni, Vidi, Vici

Adr.: Sporveisgata 8 B Leil.304, 0354 Oslo
Phone: +47 411 21 883
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Re: Economics and the Mac

[Mark BurningHawk Baxter]

I have an MBP15 with the glass track pad, and I was under the  
impression I could use gestures and the commander with it, but I  
haven't gotten SL yet, am still using the same old spotted kitty.

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Importing audiobooks into Itunes continued

[Daniel Rowe]

Hi all.

I tried using the join function in Audiobook Builder but it still leaves a 
little gap between each track.
Any more ideas on how I could fix this?

Thanksin advance,

Dannie

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Re: Economics and the Mac

[Chris Hofstader]

I asked the same of friends of mine in the Apple accessibility team and they 
said that there were no trackpads that will work properly with 
TrackpadCommander that they knew about.  Most third party trackpads need 
drivers that mess up VO.  The new Magic Mouse is, in my not at all humble 
opinion, useless for people with vision impairment.

I haven't tried the iPhone app but suspect it will act a bit strangely with VO 
just because it communicates by wifi which may be at a higher level than where 
VO gets its data.

So far, the only thing that Apple sells that works with TrackpadCommander is 
the MacBook line of laptops.

cdh 
On Dec 3, 2009, at 2:39 PM, Krister Ekstrom wrote:

> Ok, before i say something silly here, let me ask a question, can a user of 
> an old Imac like me in any way use the trackpad commander? There is 
> apparently some kind of app for the iphone, but can that really compare to 
> using a real track pad? There's no separate trackpad as far as i know, or am 
> i wrong here?
> /Krister
> 
> 
> 3 dec 2009 kl. 13.45 skrev Chris Hofstader:
> 
>> The combination of the spatial information provided by object navigation and 
>> that one gets in Trackpad Commander provides the most comprehensive step 
>> forward in making an efficient UI since FS put the virtual cursor mode for 
>> navigating Internet information back in JAWS 3.31 (1999).
>> 
>> With a bit of practice understanding the spatial information also provides 
>> one with a greater level of understanding of contextual relationships 
>> between objects, something that is either very ard or entirely impossible in 
>> all Windows screen readers other than NVDA.
>> 
>> Counting keystrokes is so 2008, using the trackpad to navigate in 2 
>> dimensions saves a huge amount of time because, as one becomes more familiar 
>> with an application they can jump directly to the control they are looking 
>> for without all of the tabs or whatever they had previously used.  The 
>> iPhone proved the concept and, in the current VO, it was taken to much 
>> greater heights.
>> 
>> Happy Hacking,
>> cdh
>> 
>> On Dec 2, 2009, at 4:18 PM, James & Nash wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi John,
>>> 
 You wrote;
 Plus, it would seem to me that if you can use the jaws cursor to get 
 something done, that's a point in favor of jaws, not against it.
>>> 
>>> Whilst the JAWS cursor does indeed have many uses, there are occasions 
>>> where the object navigation approach as  used by NVDA, Orca and VO  yield 
>>> better results. For example, a while back, I was using NVDA with Outlook 
>>> Express, and whilst I was navigating the window, I came across some buttons 
>>> that I had not been aware of before. Intrigued, I tired to accomplish the 
>>> same task with JFW and found that these buttons were invisible to the JAWS 
>>> cursor. 
>>> 
>>> Also, as I said before object navigation provides us with an idea of how a 
>>> screen looks to sighted people, which is a big plus in my opinion as I have 
>>>  often wondered - or need to know how things are laid out on the screen.
>>> 
>>> TC
>>> 
>>> James 
>>> On 2 Dec 2009, at 20:24, John G. Heim wrote:
>>> 
 Well, given your examples I don't know how you can say that jaws misses 
 more 
 than voiceover. You've given 3 significant examples of things voiceover 
 misses and just one fairly obscure thing for jaws and windows.
 
 Plus, it would seem to me that if you can use the jaws cursor to get 
 something done, that's a point in favor of jaws, not against it.
 
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: "Chris Hofstader" 
 To: 
 Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 1:35 PM
 Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac
 
 
 I actually think VO provides much better support for the stuff that ships 
 installed on a Macintosh than JAWS does with a lot of the Windows stuff.  
 VO 
 may miss a few things (I find TimeMachine restores pretty hard to use with 
 VO and Spaces is far from obvious with VO) but JAWS still doesn't work 
 with 
 the built-in dictation program and misses a whole lot of stuff in a lot of 
 Windows utilities - sure, an expert user can get at stuff using the JAWS 
 Cursor and by writing scripts but, out-of-the-box, VO gets far more of the 
 basic Macintosh stuff right than JAWS does with Windows.
 
 Also, the Trackpad Commander provides a wholly new and very exciting way 
 for 
 a blind user to navigate that, when people get used to it, will improve 
 efficiency enormously while JAWS remains in the unidimensional world of a 
 long list of semantic blips.
 
 cdh
 cdh
 On Dec 2, 2009, at 1:34 PM, Scott Howell wrote:
 
> And that is your opinion as well and I completely disagree with you. 
> However, you as I are entitled to your opinion and having used both 
> windows and the Mac on a regular basis, I find that there are many tasks, 
> which are much easier to pe

Re: Accessing Project Gutenberg

[Esther]

Hi James, Chris, Richie, and Others,

There's the Bookworm online ePub ebook reading platform that O'Reilly  
is hosting:

http://bookworm.oreilly.com/

I did try this out, and it has a particularly simple interface for  
requesting and downloading books in ePub format from Project  
Gutenberg.  I checked this out a while ago as part of my explorations  
of potential ways of reading e-books on the iPod Touch and iPhone, and  
standard format issues.  The ePub format looks to be the closest thing  
to an open (non-DRM) standard.  The Bookworm web interface works.  You  
have to sign up for an account so that you can log in.  However, in  
Safari the annoying thing is that I keep hearing some extraneous  
information that is in the outer frame (outside the ebook) when I read  
page to page. (Everything else is fine and accessible).  If I stuck  
with this, I'd probably see whether there was a way of accessing the  
ePub formats in the local library that is set up for you, and try to  
convert the formats to PDF for preview using Stanza Desktop.

On the actual iPhone/iPod Touch, the Stanza app interface has a very  
simple way to search and download free public domain books from  
Project Gutenberg by choosing "ManyBooks" in the online catalog list.  
The only problem is that Stanza isn't quite yet up to handling reading  
through all these books automatically and painlessly with VoiceOver  
yet -- and I don't want to have to touch every page to start the next  
reading.

If you go to the Blind Cool Tech site, you can look for a podcast on  
Ebook Reading that a windows users did about Bookworm back in August.

HTH

Cheers,

Esther

James & Nash wrote:

> Hi Chris
>
> You wrote:
>> So isn't project gutenberg just a web site where I can download  
>> various formats of out-of-copyright books? What does the client do?
>
> Yes PG is just that, however, a client would give immediate  access  
> to everything rather than having to navigate the website.  Perhaps a  
> bit lazy, but with the client you may be able to search in different  
> ways than are available on the site.
>
> TC
> James
> James
> On 2 Dec 2009, at 20:31, Chris Blouch wrote:
>
>> So isn't project gutenberg just a web site where I can download  
>> various formats of out-of-copyright books? What does the client do?
>>
>> CB
>>
>> James & Nash wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Richie,
>>>
>>> Good to hear from you. We've not spoken in a long time.
>>>
>>> Thanks for the heads up on the Project Gutenberg situation.
>>>
>>> Please get in touch off list if you fancy a chat.
>>>
>>> TC
>>>
>>> James
>>> On 1 Dec 2009, at 23:29, Richie Gardenhire wrote:
>>>
>>>
 Greg Kearney is working on writing a program which will give us  
 access
 to the Gutenberg project site so we can download books from that
 site.  There are probably others working on similar software.   
 Richie
 Gardenhire, Anchorage,Alaska.


 On Dec 1, 2009, at 1:03 PM, James & Nash wrote:

 Hi list,

 On Windows, the Webbie application suite has a fantastic app for
 accessing the Project Gutenberg site. Does anything like this exist
 for the Mac? I know that there is one called Guten, but as yet,  
 I've
 not got it to work. How do people find accessing the Gutenberg  
 site,
 and do they have any tips?

 Thank you for taking the time to read this.

 TC

 James

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Re: Economics and the Mac

[Krister Ekstrom]

Ok, before i say something silly here, let me ask a question, can a user of an 
old Imac like me in any way use the trackpad commander? There is apparently 
some kind of app for the iphone, but can that really compare to using a real 
track pad? There's no separate trackpad as far as i know, or am i wrong here?
/Krister


3 dec 2009 kl. 13.45 skrev Chris Hofstader:

> The combination of the spatial information provided by object navigation and 
> that one gets in Trackpad Commander provides the most comprehensive step 
> forward in making an efficient UI since FS put the virtual cursor mode for 
> navigating Internet information back in JAWS 3.31 (1999).
> 
> With a bit of practice understanding the spatial information also provides 
> one with a greater level of understanding of contextual relationships between 
> objects, something that is either very ard or entirely impossible in all 
> Windows screen readers other than NVDA.
> 
> Counting keystrokes is so 2008, using the trackpad to navigate in 2 
> dimensions saves a huge amount of time because, as one becomes more familiar 
> with an application they can jump directly to the control they are looking 
> for without all of the tabs or whatever they had previously used.  The iPhone 
> proved the concept and, in the current VO, it was taken to much greater 
> heights.
> 
> Happy Hacking,
> cdh
> 
> On Dec 2, 2009, at 4:18 PM, James & Nash wrote:
> 
>> Hi John,
>> 
>>> You wrote;
>>> Plus, it would seem to me that if you can use the jaws cursor to get 
>>> something done, that's a point in favor of jaws, not against it.
>> 
>> Whilst the JAWS cursor does indeed have many uses, there are occasions where 
>> the object navigation approach as  used by NVDA, Orca and VO  yield better 
>> results. For example, a while back, I was using NVDA with Outlook Express, 
>> and whilst I was navigating the window, I came across some buttons that I 
>> had not been aware of before. Intrigued, I tired to accomplish the same task 
>> with JFW and found that these buttons were invisible to the JAWS cursor. 
>> 
>> Also, as I said before object navigation provides us with an idea of how a 
>> screen looks to sighted people, which is a big plus in my opinion as I have  
>> often wondered - or need to know how things are laid out on the screen.
>> 
>> TC
>> 
>> James 
>> On 2 Dec 2009, at 20:24, John G. Heim wrote:
>> 
>>> Well, given your examples I don't know how you can say that jaws misses 
>>> more 
>>> than voiceover. You've given 3 significant examples of things voiceover 
>>> misses and just one fairly obscure thing for jaws and windows.
>>> 
>>> Plus, it would seem to me that if you can use the jaws cursor to get 
>>> something done, that's a point in favor of jaws, not against it.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> - Original Message - 
>>> From: "Chris Hofstader" 
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 1:35 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I actually think VO provides much better support for the stuff that ships 
>>> installed on a Macintosh than JAWS does with a lot of the Windows stuff.  
>>> VO 
>>> may miss a few things (I find TimeMachine restores pretty hard to use with 
>>> VO and Spaces is far from obvious with VO) but JAWS still doesn't work with 
>>> the built-in dictation program and misses a whole lot of stuff in a lot of 
>>> Windows utilities - sure, an expert user can get at stuff using the JAWS 
>>> Cursor and by writing scripts but, out-of-the-box, VO gets far more of the 
>>> basic Macintosh stuff right than JAWS does with Windows.
>>> 
>>> Also, the Trackpad Commander provides a wholly new and very exciting way 
>>> for 
>>> a blind user to navigate that, when people get used to it, will improve 
>>> efficiency enormously while JAWS remains in the unidimensional world of a 
>>> long list of semantic blips.
>>> 
>>> cdh
>>> cdh
>>> On Dec 2, 2009, at 1:34 PM, Scott Howell wrote:
>>> 
 And that is your opinion as well and I completely disagree with you. 
 However, you as I are entitled to your opinion and having used both 
 windows and the Mac on a regular basis, I find that there are many tasks, 
 which are much easier to perform with VOiceOver than Window-Eyes. I have 
 never used JAWS and of course at this point I wouldn't bother since I'm 
 not interested in learning something new since I can do what I need with 
 what I got. However, with the quick-nav feature of VO, I have found it 
 takes less keystrokes then before. You can argue that interacting is 
 perhaps one issue and with a windows=based screen reader that may be true 
 depending on the screen reader, but at the same time I don't have the 
 multitude of issues with VO as I do with WE when dealing with MSAA.
 It's obvious JAWS is your preference and honestly that's fine. What 
 matters in the end regardless of whether we agree or not is that you have 
 the tools to get the job done. That is one point I think we 

Re: pdf to html converters?

[Esther]

Hi Trahern,

I was going to let this pass, because most people who want HTML output  
want to set formatting and other things that don't easily get handled  
automatically.  On the Mac it's easy to go the other way and get  
almost anything into PDF format by using the print command (Command-P)  
and saving the output as a PDF file via the PDF menu button.  However,  
I realize that I do know a way of converting PDF to HTML that works  
with VoiceOver: Stanza Desktop is a free application that is meant to  
work different e-book formats, particularly on Mobile devices like the  
iPhone and iPod Touch.  Since these devices often have incompatible  
formats, the LexCycle people who make Stanza (as an app for the  
iPhone) also provided a Desktop app that could convert between all  
these myriad formats and provide a way of uploading the (non-DRM) e- 
books from your computer to your iPhone or iPod Touch.  However, I  
just tried this, and I can use Stanza Desktop's File menu to open a  
PDF file and then use the File menu option to export it as HTML.  It's  
no so good for reading with VoiceOver because these variant ebook  
formats don't support the same degree of navigation capabilities as  
you get, for example, with Preview.  Incidentally, these navigation  
quirks on the iPhone and iPod Touch for the Stanza app still currently  
limit its use for e-book reading on the iPhone and iPod Touch, since  
you can't set books to just automatically read yet in this app.

Anyway, if you want to try this, go to LexCycle's Stanza download page:

http://www.lexcycle.com/download

and download the current version for Apple Macintosh.  (There's a  
versions for Microsoft Windows and another link for the iPhone/iPod  
Touch that will simply take you to the iTunes App Store.)

Once you install Stanza Desktop, open your file (Command-O and find  
your file in the dialog window -- all the FInder shortcuts and  
navigation commands will work).  Select All with Command-A, then  
navigate to the File menu of the menu bar (VO-M, then press "F").   
Arrow down, then press "E" to go to the "Export Book As…" menu option,  
arrow right to the submenu and press "H" for "HTML" (or arrow down if  
you want the HTML 4.0 option), then complete the save dialog.  I'll  
note that the Export submenu has an option of MP3 Audiobook, and this  
feature does work, but not as efficiently or as well as GhostReader or  
as using an Automator action to generate audio from text would.  In  
the first version that they tried this, your computer entirely locked  
up as "busy".  Unlike the other two methods, you can't control the  
speaking rate of the output.

Also, be aware that this Stanza Desktop software is free, but expires  
in fixed intervals (something like 3 months), because they keep  
developing the beta and don't want old versions of the software around  
to contend with.

Good luck.  HTH.  Needless to say, this won't let you convert any DRM  
content.  Since I'm not familiar with the HTML format output options  
and only checked that I could open and read the output HTML version  
file, you'll have to check this out for yourself.

Cheers,

Esther

trahern culver wrote:

> hey guys do you know if there are any pdf to html convertrers that
> work with v o?
>

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Re: My Mac saying things it shouldn't

[Chris Hofstader]

Years ago, thre was a word that caused Eloquence to crash during a JAWS 
session.  Of course, people reported the bug in emails that contained the word 
so the whole JAWS mailing list (more than 800 members back then) crashed when 
they read the note.  So, your subject was a bit confusing but it didn't cause 
anyone to lose work or need to reboot.


On Dec 3, 2009, at 1:59 PM, carlene knight wrote:

> Sorry, I'll change it.  That's one of those things I didn't think about until 
> after I had started it.
> 
> 
> On Dec 3, 2009, at 4:59 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote:
> 
>> This subject line is driving me nuts as every time I hear it I think it is 
>> VO talking and not a subject for an email.
>> On Dec 2, 2009, at 8:09 PM, carlene knight wrote:
>> 
>>> I must be doing something wrong.  What do I type in the folder name?  
>>> Library/preferences was not found.  I feel really stupid.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Dec 2, 2009, at 11:49 AM, Esther wrote:
>>> 
 Hi Carlene and James,
 
 James & Nash wrote:
> 
> In my experience, this usually happens when you are either mounting  
> or removing  either an external HD or a DMG file. Have you tried  
> trashing Voice Over's .plist files? You might want to save them  
> first though as this will set Voice Over back to its defaults.
> 
> To do this:
> 1. Open finder and navigate to your users folder
> 2. Find the correct user(if there is more than one)
> 3. Navigate to the Preferences folder which is inside the Library  
> folder and remove the apple.com.VoiceOver.plist files
> 
 
 A few suggestions:
 1. To navigate to your user's folder, in Finder use Command-Shift-H   
 to go to your user account's home directory (steps 1 and 2).
 2. To navigate to the Preferences folder, type Command-Shift-G (for  
 "Go to folder"); then, in the text area, type or paste in the folder  
 name (with a slash before "Preferences"):
 Library/Preferences
 and press return.
 3.  The plist file for VoiceOver is named:
 com.apple.VoiceOver.plist
 
 Other VoiceOver related preference files have names like:
 com.apple.speech.prefs.plist
 com.apple.speech.synthesis.general.prefs.plist
 com.apple.speech.voice.prefs.plist
 com.apple.universalaccess.plist
 com.apple.VoiceOver.pronunciations.plist
 com.apple.VoiceOverUtility.plist
 
 HTH
 
 Cheers,
 
 Esther
 
 
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My Mac saying things it shouldn't

[carlene knight]

We found a Universal VO plist file and deleted it but it didn't do anything to 
help.  If anything the problem is worse and it didn't erase any of my settings. 
 I guess it's just something I'll have to live with, as the name of the file 
has obviously changed.

On Dec 3, 2009, at 4:59 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote:

> This subject line is driving me nuts as every time I hear it I think it is VO 
> talking and not a subject for an email.
> On Dec 2, 2009, at 8:09 PM, carlene knight wrote:
> 
>> I must be doing something wrong.  What do I type in the folder name?  
>> Library/preferences was not found.  I feel really stupid.
>> 
>> 
>> On Dec 2, 2009, at 11:49 AM, Esther wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Carlene and James,
>>> 
>>> James & Nash wrote:
 
 In my experience, this usually happens when you are either mounting  
 or removing  either an external HD or a DMG file. Have you tried  
 trashing Voice Over's .plist files? You might want to save them  
 first though as this will set Voice Over back to its defaults.
 
 To do this:
 1. Open finder and navigate to your users folder
 2. Find the correct user(if there is more than one)
 3. Navigate to the Preferences folder which is inside the Library  
 folder and remove the apple.com.VoiceOver.plist files
 
>>> 
>>> A few suggestions:
>>> 1. To navigate to your user's folder, in Finder use Command-Shift-H   
>>> to go to your user account's home directory (steps 1 and 2).
>>> 2. To navigate to the Preferences folder, type Command-Shift-G (for  
>>> "Go to folder"); then, in the text area, type or paste in the folder  
>>> name (with a slash before "Preferences"):
>>> Library/Preferences
>>> and press return.
>>> 3.  The plist file for VoiceOver is named:
>>> com.apple.VoiceOver.plist
>>> 
>>> Other VoiceOver related preference files have names like:
>>> com.apple.speech.prefs.plist
>>> com.apple.speech.synthesis.general.prefs.plist
>>> com.apple.speech.voice.prefs.plist
>>> com.apple.universalaccess.plist
>>> com.apple.VoiceOver.pronunciations.plist
>>> com.apple.VoiceOverUtility.plist
>>> 
>>> HTH
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Esther
>>> 
>>> 
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My Mac saying things it shouldn't

[carlene knight]

Sorry, I'll change it.  That's one of those things I didn't think about until 
after I had started it.


On Dec 3, 2009, at 4:59 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote:

> This subject line is driving me nuts as every time I hear it I think it is VO 
> talking and not a subject for an email.
> On Dec 2, 2009, at 8:09 PM, carlene knight wrote:
> 
>> I must be doing something wrong.  What do I type in the folder name?  
>> Library/preferences was not found.  I feel really stupid.
>> 
>> 
>> On Dec 2, 2009, at 11:49 AM, Esther wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Carlene and James,
>>> 
>>> James & Nash wrote:
 
 In my experience, this usually happens when you are either mounting  
 or removing  either an external HD or a DMG file. Have you tried  
 trashing Voice Over's .plist files? You might want to save them  
 first though as this will set Voice Over back to its defaults.
 
 To do this:
 1. Open finder and navigate to your users folder
 2. Find the correct user(if there is more than one)
 3. Navigate to the Preferences folder which is inside the Library  
 folder and remove the apple.com.VoiceOver.plist files
 
>>> 
>>> A few suggestions:
>>> 1. To navigate to your user's folder, in Finder use Command-Shift-H   
>>> to go to your user account's home directory (steps 1 and 2).
>>> 2. To navigate to the Preferences folder, type Command-Shift-G (for  
>>> "Go to folder"); then, in the text area, type or paste in the folder  
>>> name (with a slash before "Preferences"):
>>> Library/Preferences
>>> and press return.
>>> 3.  The plist file for VoiceOver is named:
>>> com.apple.VoiceOver.plist
>>> 
>>> Other VoiceOver related preference files have names like:
>>> com.apple.speech.prefs.plist
>>> com.apple.speech.synthesis.general.prefs.plist
>>> com.apple.speech.voice.prefs.plist
>>> com.apple.universalaccess.plist
>>> com.apple.VoiceOver.pronunciations.plist
>>> com.apple.VoiceOverUtility.plist
>>> 
>>> HTH
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Esther
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: audio bookcreatationsoftware for text and pdf files?

[James & Nash]

Hi

You wrote:
> please can some one reccomend some audio book converter that
> makes audio books from text or pdf files?

Do you have VisioVoice from Assistiveware? You can make audio files from text 
and PDF files with this. I think it costs around 150 GBP but this also includes 
a language pack I believe.

TC
James
On 3 Dec 2009, at 17:28, trahern culver wrote:

> hey all  please can some one reccomend some audio book converter that
> makes audio books from text or pdf files?
> 
> your help with this would be most welcome!!!
> 
> kind regards trahern.
> 
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Re: Mac Audio Recorder crashes ETC

[Chris Blouch]

I just downloaded it and set it up on a freshly installed Snow Leopard 
and it worked fine. It still has the annoying terms and conditions popup 
the first time that I can't discover via VO but hitting space will do 
the OK button. Where did you download it from? Maybe you got a bad copy. 
I also have it on my 10.5 laptop.

CB

louie wrote:
> I am using audio recorder 3.1 here with no troubles.
>
> On Dec 2, 2009, at 2:53 PM, Ray Foret jr wrote:
>
>   
>> Hi y'all,
>>
>> Just downloaded and tried Audio Recorder.  It seems to be a total  
>> disaster.  It won't even let me bring up any kind of menu structure  
>> and I can't quit the Ap without resetting my Mac.  I tried to use  
>> version 3.2 and I just wowned up throwing it out because it just  
>> doesn't seem to want to do anything; just sits there and won't let  
>> me open any menus or quick using command+q or anything.  Any other  
>> suggestions?  Have any of y'all tried this AP?  IF so, how did y'all  
>> get around what I've described above?  Thanks.
>>
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>>
>> Now a Mac user!!!
>>
>> Phone
>> +1 (985) 360-3614
>> E-mail:
>> rforetjr at comcast.net
>> Skype Name:
>> barefootedray
>>
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>>
>> 
>
> louie
> louiem...@wavecable.com
>
>
>
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Re: Help importing audiobooks into itunes.

[Daniel Rowe]

On 3 Dec 2009, at 18:04, Brett Campbell wrote:

> After selecting your files in Audio Book Builder, have you tried using the 
> join files button?

No, i haven't yet.  I'll try that later.

Thanks,
Dannie

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Re: Message quotes

[Brett Campbell]

Thank you Anne.  Your instructions are clear and helpful.


Brett C.

On Dec 3, 2009, at 11:16 AM, Anne Robertson wrote:

> Hello Brett,
> 
> On Dec 3, 2009, at 6:37 PM, Brett Campbell wrote:
>> 
>> In many of the messages I read on this list, there are replies with quotes 
>> that start with the originals senders name, followed by the word wrote, 
>> followed by a only a selection of the original text, and is often followed 
>> by the answer to their question.  Are people manually typing the person's 
>> name followed by wrote, or is there a way to do this automatically?  If 
>> there is a way to do this automatically, I ask that someone will explain how 
>> to do it.
> When you press Command-R to reply to a message, you'll see the original 
> message in the text area, starting with, "On such and such a day, at such and 
> such a time, so and so wrote:"
> To quote some of the contents of the message to which you are replying, 
> highlight the parts you want to remove and press Delete to get rid of them. 
> Type your contribution in the appropriate places.
> 
> So, for instance, navigate past the when and from whom, then hold down the 
> Shift key and use Option-Right Arrow to move word by word past the part you 
> want to delete, and press Delete.
> Then start navigating without the Shift key until you are past the part you 
> want to reply to, then type your reply.
> 
> You can delete the rest of the earlier message by pressing Shift-Command-Down 
> Arrow followed by Delete.
> 
> I hope this makes sense.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Anne
> 
> 
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Re: Message quotes

[Anne Robertson]

Hello Brett,

On Dec 3, 2009, at 6:37 PM, Brett Campbell wrote:
> 
> In many of the messages I read on this list, there are replies with quotes 
> that start with the originals senders name, followed by the word wrote, 
> followed by a only a selection of the original text, and is often followed by 
> the answer to their question.  Are people manually typing the person's name 
> followed by wrote, or is there a way to do this automatically?  If there is a 
> way to do this automatically, I ask that someone will explain how to do it.
When you press Command-R to reply to a message, you'll see the original message 
in the text area, starting with, "On such and such a day, at such and such a 
time, so and so wrote:"
To quote some of the contents of the message to which you are replying, 
highlight the parts you want to remove and press Delete to get rid of them. 
Type your contribution in the appropriate places.

So, for instance, navigate past the when and from whom, then hold down the 
Shift key and use Option-Right Arrow to move word by word past the part you 
want to delete, and press Delete.
Then start navigating without the Shift key until you are past the part you 
want to reply to, then type your reply.

You can delete the rest of the earlier message by pressing Shift-Command-Down 
Arrow followed by Delete.

I hope this makes sense.

Cheers,

Anne

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Re: audio bookcreatationsoftware for text and pdf files?

[Anne Robertson]

Hello Trahern,

I use GhostReader from Convenienceware:


You can get the Infovox iVox British voices plus GhostReader for €109, I don't 
know how much it costs in pounds, but doing it that way, you can use the 
Infovox iVox voices with VoiceOver as well as with GhostReader.

Cheers,

Anne 

On Dec 3, 2009, at 6:28 PM, trahern culver wrote:

> hey all  please can some one reccomend some audio book converter that
> makes audio books from text or pdf files?
> 
> your help with this would be most welcome!!!
> 
> kind regards trahern.
> 
> --
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Re: Help importing audiobooks into itunes.

[Brett Campbell]

After selecting your files in Audio Book Builder, have you tried using the join 
files button?



Brett C.

On Dec 3, 2009, at 8:16 AM, Daniel Rowe wrote:

> Hi all.
> 
> I use Audiobook Builder to convert audiobooks to the bookmarkable format.  
> For the most part, it works great.  However, if I convert something like a 
> radio play where tracks are seamlessly joined together, it leaves little gaps 
> between them.
> Has anyone got any other suggestions?  I don't want to manually splice the 
> files together.
> 
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Message quotes

[Brett Campbell]

Hello,

In many of the messages I read on this list, there are replies with quotes that 
start with the originals senders name, followed by the word wrote, followed by 
a only a selection of the original text, and is often followed by the answer to 
their question.  Are people manually typing the person's name followed by 
wrote, or is there a way to do this automatically?  If there is a way to do 
this automatically, I ask that someone will explain how to do it.


Thanks,

Brett

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audio bookcreatationsoftware for text and pdf files?

[trahern culver]

hey all  please can some one reccomend some audio book converter that
makes audio books from text or pdf files?

your help with this would be most welcome!!!

kind regards trahern.

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news in sfari

[william lomas]

hi all, in safari how do i bring up the news menu containing 
rss of  
newspapers etc?
I have forgotten how to do it

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Re: a simmple audio program

[Maurice Mines]

no i don't have this software, I have soundstudo. I am thinking a viset to a 
applestore over winter brake is in order.
On Dec 2, 2009, at 3:32 PM, James & Nash wrote:

> Hi Maurice,
> You wrote:
>> hi I have a problem with my 13 intch mac book my internal mike is not 
>> working what cood be the problem? shud I have a reader look at a setting on 
>> it?
> 
> Do you by any chance have Audio Hijack Pro or the Sound Flower plugin 
> installed? Sound Flower is an optional extra in AHP, but it can also be 
> downloaded separately. This allows you to pull audio from the system and 
> other applications. If this is selected in your Input device menu in Sounds, 
> your Internal mic will not work. Do you have it muted by any chance too?
> Thanks 
> 
> TC
> 
> James 
> ,
> On 2 Dec 2009, at 22:25, Maurice Mines wrote:
> 
>> hi I have a problem with my 13 intch mac book my internal mike is not 
>> working what cood be the problem? shud I have a reader look at a setting on 
>> it? maurice ham sine kd0iko.
>> On Dec 2, 2009, at 1:52 PM, louie wrote:
>> 
>>> Google mac Audio Recorder
>>> On Dec 2, 2009, at 12:41 PM, Ray Foret jr wrote:
>>> 
 Okay, yep, it's me again.
 
 Anybody out there know of a nice simple audio recording program I  
 can kind of get started with?  Garage Band seems not to be very edit  
 friendly; and, as for Logic, I need to get sighted assistance to get  
 my serial number off the package.  and besides, I'm really not  
 looking to do multi track editing just now anyhow.  Click and pop  
 suppression and noise reduction are what aI'm really after here.   
 Thanks.
 
 
 Sincerely,
 
 The Constantly Barefooted Ray
 
 Now a Mac user!!!
 
 Phone
 +1 (985) 360-3614
 E-mail:
 rforetjr at comcast.net
 Skype Name:
 barefootedray
 
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 .
 
 
>>> 
>>> louie
>>> louiem...@wavecable.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>>> 
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Re: Economics and the Mac

[Mark BurningHawk Baxter]

*whimper* I have *GOT* to get SL.


Mark BurningHawk Baxter

AIM, Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
MSN:  burninghawk1...@hotmail.com
My home page:
http://MarkBurningHawk.net/

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Help importing audiobooks into itunes.

[Daniel Rowe]

Hi all.

I use Audiobook Builder to convert audiobooks to the bookmarkable format.  For 
the most part, it works great.  However, if I convert something like a radio 
play where tracks are seamlessly joined together, it leaves little gaps between 
them.
Has anyone got any other suggestions?  I don't want to manually splice the 
files together.

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Re: Economics and the Mac

[Buddy Brannan]

On some machines, like my spanking new MacBook Pro for instance, F4 (or if 
you've set up function keys for software, FN+F4) also brings up the dashboard. 
It's interesting to note that my old macBook has a couple keyboard differences. 
(This is the 2007, pre-Leopard MacBook, Core2 Duo 2.16 GHz, 2GB max memory). 
That machin had F3 for mute, F4 and F5 for volume down and up respectively, and 
F12 for dashboard. It also had an enter key next to the left arrow instead of a 
right option key. I'm not sure when the keyboards changed, but this machine has 
F4 for dashboard, F10 for mute, and f11 and F12 for volume down and up 
respectively. BTW, the speakers in the Pro seem a bit better than the ones in 
the old MacBook.


--
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Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY

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Re: selection replaced, 0 items selected

[Chris Hofstader]

This subject line is driving me nuts as every time I hear it I think it is VO 
talking and not a subject for an email.
On Dec 2, 2009, at 8:09 PM, carlene knight wrote:

> I must be doing something wrong.  What do I type in the folder name?  
> Library/preferences was not found.  I feel really stupid.
> 
> 
> On Dec 2, 2009, at 11:49 AM, Esther wrote:
> 
>> Hi Carlene and James,
>> 
>> James & Nash wrote:
>>> 
>>> In my experience, this usually happens when you are either mounting  
>>> or removing  either an external HD or a DMG file. Have you tried  
>>> trashing Voice Over's .plist files? You might want to save them  
>>> first though as this will set Voice Over back to its defaults.
>>> 
>>> To do this:
>>> 1. Open finder and navigate to your users folder
>>> 2. Find the correct user(if there is more than one)
>>> 3. Navigate to the Preferences folder which is inside the Library  
>>> folder and remove the apple.com.VoiceOver.plist files
>>> 
>> 
>> A few suggestions:
>> 1. To navigate to your user's folder, in Finder use Command-Shift-H   
>> to go to your user account's home directory (steps 1 and 2).
>> 2. To navigate to the Preferences folder, type Command-Shift-G (for  
>> "Go to folder"); then, in the text area, type or paste in the folder  
>> name (with a slash before "Preferences"):
>> Library/Preferences
>> and press return.
>> 3.  The plist file for VoiceOver is named:
>> com.apple.VoiceOver.plist
>> 
>> Other VoiceOver related preference files have names like:
>> com.apple.speech.prefs.plist
>> com.apple.speech.synthesis.general.prefs.plist
>> com.apple.speech.voice.prefs.plist
>> com.apple.universalaccess.plist
>> com.apple.VoiceOver.pronunciations.plist
>> com.apple.VoiceOverUtility.plist
>> 
>> HTH
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Esther
>> 
>> 
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Re: no mac for blind people in Belgium

[Chris Hofstader]

Hell, I just woke my wife up to drive me to a mental health hospital to sign 
myself in for a few days on your recommendation that I should be committed 
.  The truth is that I'm pretty nuts and I didn't find your incomplete 
note as anything but amusing banter.

cdh
On Dec 2, 2009, at 11:23 PM, peter apgar wrote:

> Chris,
> 
>   please accept my sincere apologies.  the below message was not the 
> completed response i had intended on posting.  after reading the below 
> posting i have unintentuly  falsely targeted you personally.  My intent was 
> to poke fun and note one of my own experiences.  however i have now made an 
> official as* out of myself and would like to apologize to you and the list 
> for the poor post.
> 
> My sincere apologies,
> 
> Pete
> On Dec 2, 2009, at 10:20 PM, peter apgar wrote:
> 
>> you should be committed.  it's your fault for assuming.  learn to 
>> communicate and all of your listed issues will be resolved.
>> 
>> Good luck, Go nfb   :(
>> 
>> On  Dec 1, 2009, at 9:44 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote:
>> 
>>> I am so sick of teaching random citizens about guide dogs, blindness, that 
>>> I don't need a wheelchair or assistance walking up a jet way, how I can 
>>> dial a telephone, how I can pee into a urinal without missing - you name 
>>> it, that I can almost explode.
>>> 
>>> An anecdote:  In Harvard Square, the rapid transit terminal has both bus 
>>> and subway connections.  I was working in Watertown (one town to the 
>>> northwest of Cambridge, and I rode a bus to work.  After getting down the 
>>> stairs, I started walking to the indoor bus stop.  Some random do-gooder 
>>> came upon me and said, "You're going the wrong way."
>>> 
>>> I made the assumption that he was someone who took the same bus as me and 
>>> that somehow I had become disoriented.  No such luck - this bugger led me 
>>> to the subway where I proceeded to start hitting him with my cane as I had 
>>> missed my bus and would need to wait another half hour for the next one 
>>> because of his moronic assumption.
>>> 
>>> Sometimes violence can feel real good.
>>> 
>>> cdh  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 4:17 PM, Mark BurningHawk Baxter wrote:
>>> 
 I love conversations like that! It's a rare treat for me when  
 someone comes up and says, basically, "You're different from me and  
 that fascinates me, and I want to learn."  Usually what I get is  
 "You're different from me and that makes me afraid, so I'm going to  
 control what I fear so that it can't hurt me."
 
 Growing up, I was taught that "It's your task to educate the sighted  
 about the blind."  In adult life, I realized that not only was this a  
 pointless and thankless task, but it was a very heavy cross to bear,  
 one that I had not asked for.  Now, when someone is courageous enough  
 to confront me as different and therefore stimulating, I feel  
 privileged to talk to them; the rest of the people I don't bother  
 trying to educate, because all the words in the world will not  
 convince a scared or superstitious or xenophobic person to change  
 their thinking patterns.  Spent a half an hour with such an individual  
 explaining how blind people use a computer or a dog, and they'll still  
 shriek in panic and grab at you when stairs are present, or start  
 talking to people around you about what you need, etc.  Being cute and  
 female never hurts, either. :)
 
 
 Mark BurningHawk Baxter
 
 Skype and Twitter:  BurningHawk1969
 MSN:  burninghawk1...@hotmail.com
 My home page:
 http://MarkBurningHawk.net/
 
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>>> 
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>>> 
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Re: Economics and the Mac

[Chris Hofstader]

The combination of the spatial information provided by object navigation and 
that one gets in Trackpad Commander provides the most comprehensive step 
forward in making an efficient UI since FS put the virtual cursor mode for 
navigating Internet information back in JAWS 3.31 (1999).

With a bit of practice understanding the spatial information also provides one 
with a greater level of understanding of contextual relationships between 
objects, something that is either very ard or entirely impossible in all 
Windows screen readers other than NVDA.

Counting keystrokes is so 2008, using the trackpad to navigate in 2 dimensions 
saves a huge amount of time because, as one becomes more familiar with an 
application they can jump directly to the control they are looking for without 
all of the tabs or whatever they had previously used.  The iPhone proved the 
concept and, in the current VO, it was taken to much greater heights.

Happy Hacking,
cdh
   
On Dec 2, 2009, at 4:18 PM, James & Nash wrote:

> Hi John,
> 
>> You wrote;
>> Plus, it would seem to me that if you can use the jaws cursor to get 
>> something done, that's a point in favor of jaws, not against it.
> 
> Whilst the JAWS cursor does indeed have many uses, there are occasions where 
> the object navigation approach as  used by NVDA, Orca and VO  yield better 
> results. For example, a while back, I was using NVDA with Outlook Express, 
> and whilst I was navigating the window, I came across some buttons that I had 
> not been aware of before. Intrigued, I tired to accomplish the same task with 
> JFW and found that these buttons were invisible to the JAWS cursor. 
> 
> Also, as I said before object navigation provides us with an idea of how a 
> screen looks to sighted people, which is a big plus in my opinion as I have  
> often wondered - or need to know how things are laid out on the screen.
> 
> TC
> 
> James 
> On 2 Dec 2009, at 20:24, John G. Heim wrote:
> 
>> Well, given your examples I don't know how you can say that jaws misses more 
>> than voiceover. You've given 3 significant examples of things voiceover 
>> misses and just one fairly obscure thing for jaws and windows.
>> 
>> Plus, it would seem to me that if you can use the jaws cursor to get 
>> something done, that's a point in favor of jaws, not against it.
>> 
>> 
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Chris Hofstader" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 1:35 PM
>> Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac
>> 
>> 
>> I actually think VO provides much better support for the stuff that ships 
>> installed on a Macintosh than JAWS does with a lot of the Windows stuff.  VO 
>> may miss a few things (I find TimeMachine restores pretty hard to use with 
>> VO and Spaces is far from obvious with VO) but JAWS still doesn't work with 
>> the built-in dictation program and misses a whole lot of stuff in a lot of 
>> Windows utilities - sure, an expert user can get at stuff using the JAWS 
>> Cursor and by writing scripts but, out-of-the-box, VO gets far more of the 
>> basic Macintosh stuff right than JAWS does with Windows.
>> 
>> Also, the Trackpad Commander provides a wholly new and very exciting way for 
>> a blind user to navigate that, when people get used to it, will improve 
>> efficiency enormously while JAWS remains in the unidimensional world of a 
>> long list of semantic blips.
>> 
>> cdh
>> cdh
>> On Dec 2, 2009, at 1:34 PM, Scott Howell wrote:
>> 
>>> And that is your opinion as well and I completely disagree with you. 
>>> However, you as I are entitled to your opinion and having used both 
>>> windows and the Mac on a regular basis, I find that there are many tasks, 
>>> which are much easier to perform with VOiceOver than Window-Eyes. I have 
>>> never used JAWS and of course at this point I wouldn't bother since I'm 
>>> not interested in learning something new since I can do what I need with 
>>> what I got. However, with the quick-nav feature of VO, I have found it 
>>> takes less keystrokes then before. You can argue that interacting is 
>>> perhaps one issue and with a windows=based screen reader that may be true 
>>> depending on the screen reader, but at the same time I don't have the 
>>> multitude of issues with VO as I do with WE when dealing with MSAA.
>>> It's obvious JAWS is your preference and honestly that's fine. What 
>>> matters in the end regardless of whether we agree or not is that you have 
>>> the tools to get the job done. That is one point I think we can both agree 
>>> on.
>>> 
>>> On Dec 2, 2009, at 1:23 PM, John G. Heim wrote:
>>> 
 No, screen readers can be judged subjectively independent of the OS they 
 are
 used for. For example, a subjective measurement might be a count of the
 number of keystrokes it takes to complete certain tasks. Also, 
 consistency
 can be a subjective measurment. Does the same keystroke move from one 
 input
 field to the next? And finally, you can get an idea of the percent

Re: Economics and the Mac

[Chris Hofstader]

I used the phrase, "JAWS misses a lot of stuff that comes with Windows..." and 
did not enumerate them because the list is too long.  "A lot of stuff" means a 
lot of stuff which, in myy mind is greater than three items.

Using the JAWS cursor is an acquired skill that most users are never taught or 
learn on their own.  Also, while an expert user can do a bunch of things with 
the JAWS cursor and by writing scripts there are a whole lot of basic Windows 
utilities and the like where even these band-aid solutions will not work.  
Also, Macintosh/VO provides the Mouse Cursor an analogue of the JAWS cursor 
which is really helpful in some cases where other techniques fail so more 
advanced VO users have a similar tool as is available in JAWS.

cdh
On Dec 2, 2009, at 3:24 PM, John G. Heim wrote:

> Well, given your examples I don't know how you can say that jaws misses more 
> than voiceover. You've given 3 significant examples of things voiceover 
> misses and just one fairly obscure thing for jaws and windows.
> 
> Plus, it would seem to me that if you can use the jaws cursor to get 
> something done, that's a point in favor of jaws, not against it.
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Chris Hofstader" 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 1:35 PM
> Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac
> 
> 
> I actually think VO provides much better support for the stuff that ships 
> installed on a Macintosh than JAWS does with a lot of the Windows stuff.  VO 
> may miss a few things (I find TimeMachine restores pretty hard to use with 
> VO and Spaces is far from obvious with VO) but JAWS still doesn't work with 
> the built-in dictation program and misses a whole lot of stuff in a lot of 
> Windows utilities - sure, an expert user can get at stuff using the JAWS 
> Cursor and by writing scripts but, out-of-the-box, VO gets far more of the 
> basic Macintosh stuff right than JAWS does with Windows.
> 
> Also, the Trackpad Commander provides a wholly new and very exciting way for 
> a blind user to navigate that, when people get used to it, will improve 
> efficiency enormously while JAWS remains in the unidimensional world of a 
> long list of semantic blips.
> 
> cdh
> cdh
> On Dec 2, 2009, at 1:34 PM, Scott Howell wrote:
> 
>> And that is your opinion as well and I completely disagree with you. 
>> However, you as I are entitled to your opinion and having used both 
>> windows and the Mac on a regular basis, I find that there are many tasks, 
>> which are much easier to perform with VOiceOver than Window-Eyes. I have 
>> never used JAWS and of course at this point I wouldn't bother since I'm 
>> not interested in learning something new since I can do what I need with 
>> what I got. However, with the quick-nav feature of VO, I have found it 
>> takes less keystrokes then before. You can argue that interacting is 
>> perhaps one issue and with a windows=based screen reader that may be true 
>> depending on the screen reader, but at the same time I don't have the 
>> multitude of issues with VO as I do with WE when dealing with MSAA.
>> It's obvious JAWS is your preference and honestly that's fine. What 
>> matters in the end regardless of whether we agree or not is that you have 
>> the tools to get the job done. That is one point I think we can both agree 
>> on.
>> 
>> On Dec 2, 2009, at 1:23 PM, John G. Heim wrote:
>> 
>>> No, screen readers can be judged subjectively independent of the OS they 
>>> are
>>> used for. For example, a subjective measurement might be a count of the
>>> number of keystrokes it takes to complete certain tasks. Also, 
>>> consistency
>>> can be a subjective measurment. Does the same keystroke move from one 
>>> input
>>> field to the next? And finally, you can get an idea of the percentage of
>>> inaccessible controls in operating system applications. In fact, you 
>>> could
>>> even include accessibility of third party applications even if you have 
>>> to
>>> download add-ons to make them accessible. After all, who cares where the
>>> accessibility features come from as long as they work?
>>> 
>>> Anyway, I'm not necessarily saying that my opinion is right. But your
>>> contention that its impossible to compare jaws and voiceover is 
>>> incorrect.
>>> 
>>> - Original Message - 
>>> From: "Scott Howell" 
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 5:19 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac
>>> 
>>> 
>>> John, I think that is a very unfair statement. To say that VoiceOver is 
>>> not
>>> up to the standard set by JAWS is inaccurate. That is like comparing 
>>> windows
>>> and the Mac OS. Sure, they both are operating systems, but they are very
>>> different and that holds true with VoiceOver as compared to JAWS,
>>> Window-Eyes, and any screen reader running on windows or Linux for that
>>> matter. They are all screen readers, like windows or SL share some
>>> similarities, but VoiceOver and JAWS for windows are very different.
>>> Therefore, the supposed stand

Re: Economics and the Mac

[Chris Hofstader]

The Fs sales strategy is designed to primarily get a lot of multi-user sales 
and let their coattails drag along the individuals.  We would talk about how GW 
lives on single users and, for all we cared, those people could get Window-Eyes.

On a per seat basis, a single user is more expensive in terms of support and 
other overhead costs which, if you sell a pile of units to an agency to dole 
out to its clients, the publisher can save a lot as the agency provides first 
line support.

So, the occasional individual who drifts away from JAWS is replaced by 20 or 
more at an agency somewhere.   FS does not refuse any sales but does focus on 
the bigger deals at which they are expert in getting on board.

I don't know how many people we have on MacVisionaries, MacVoiceOver, viphone 
and any other vision impairment oriented Macintosh lists but all of us are out 
in the vanguard.  We took the risk of adopting a newer technology with a 
minimal history.  If you talk to most JAWS users, they are not likely to ever 
have heard of VO and, to their ends, don't even want to think about an 
alternative to JAWS because they can't be bothered with making a switch.

People who hang out on these users lists are an odd lot (I include myself in 
the gang of the weird here) as we spend more time thinking about our AT than is 
anywhere similar to "normal" people who only really notice when their screen 
reader breaks or their SMA comes up for renewal.  Our "gang" really cares 
enough to spend a lot of time thinking about these questions but most people 
don't.

It will take a big shift in the perceptions and economics of screen access 
tools and AT in general to threaten JAWS in any substantive manner.  As I wrote 
a couple of days ago, GW had a good shot in 2000 - 2001 but blew the 
opportunity so magnificently that it clearly boggles the mind and makes one 
wonder if they actually want to compete.

cdh   
On Dec 2, 2009, at 3:19 PM, John G. Him wrote:

> Well, I wasn't actually arguing that voiceover and nvda are going to drive 
> FS out of business. If FS isn't being challenged in any significant way by 
> these free screen readers, it only supports my original assertion that the 
> NFB logic was flawed.
> 
> I don't know if FS is being pressured by nvda and voiceover but they lost 
> out on at least one sale because of voiceover. I bought a Mac for home use 
> instead of a Windows PC . I doubt that I'm the only one who has done that. I 
> have linux on my laptop so that's another sale they missed out on in a way. 
> And while right now I have a Pac Mate, next time I'll probably go with an 
> Iphone.
> 
> I don't know... Maybe FS can afford to lose all that business as long as I 
> still have jaws on my work computer.
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Chris Hofstader" 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 1:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac
> 
> 
> I can assure you, FS is feeling no pressure from either VO or NVDA and only 
> a tiny bit of pressure from System Access.  Window-Eyes will continue to see 
> their share decrease slowly but will maintain a slow growth in numbers of 
> units sold as the market continues to expand annually.
> 
> There is absolutely no evidence that FS is feeling pressure from any other 
> screen reader.  I do think that BrailleNote is beating PAC Mate pretty 
> solidly and that OpenBook trails K1000 more and more each year but it will 
> require a major tectonic shift to knock JAWS down a notch in global share.
> 
> VO doesn't even try to work in many multi-byte languages like Japanese, 
> Arabic, various Chinese writing systems  and probably a few I can't think of 
> right now.  If you take a look at how programs called input method editors 
> (IME) work, you'll understand the incredible complexity a screen reader must 
> overcome to give the user reasonable feedback during input.
> 
> FS sells more than half of JAWS units outside the US and is in far more 
> languages than anyone else with Dolphin coming in second.  Any screen reader 
> can do a decent job in the Western European languages and writing systems 
> but toss Japanese which can have four separate writing systems combined in a 
> single document plus lots of words that sound very similar but have terribly 
> different definitions and, unless the screen reader gets it right, a user 
> may tell his boss that he loves him very much and, with the same set of 
> phonemes but different glyphs, tell his wife that he wants to share an 
> umbrella with her.  With help from IBM, we got JAWS to work pretty well in 
> Japanese and in the modern Chinese Mandarin writing system.  Hal does a 
> pretty good job with the Microsoft IME but users still find them 
> accidentally signing a note with the name of a flower instead of the 
> equivalent of Fred which can be very embarrassing
> On Dec 2, 2009, at 1:28 PM, John G. Heim wrote:
> 
>> The real deal breaker was voiceover and nvda. Even if you buy the argument
>> that Micro

Re: Mac Useless for low vision users?

[Declan]

Interesting about the insertion point.  I have had an email from
Archie Robertson on this subject that wasn't posted to the group.
Apparently the problem with tracking the cursor in Pages (iWork 09)
and Word is a bug in Snow Leapoard.  It is not present in Leapoard
(the cursor tracks OK in Leapoard).  Apple are working on it
apparently.  Possibly the next version o the one after of MAC OS will
fix it!

I wanted to get this info out into the group.  If I was a low vision
user and had upgraded to Snow Leapoard I would be hopping mad.  Can
you downgrade to Leapoard form Snow Leapoard?  Why are there no major
complaints about this?

Again Thank You very much for your help.

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Re: Mac Useless for low vision users?

[Claire]

Hi,
Cursor tracking works ok with Pages at least (the word processing part
of Iworks). I just checked the checkbox that said "Zoom follows the
keyboard focus" in the Universal access preference pane that you can
find by going to the System Preferences. Zoom and VO seem to work
independently so it doesn't make any difference.
There is an other program could "Visiovoice" that is an other low-
vision solution (you can find more info at 
http://www.assistiveware.com/visiovoice.php
). It enables you to zoom in on text and images that appear in
separate windows, I prefer using Zoom as I need full-screen
magnification.
Changing the size of the mouse pointer does not change the size of the
insertion point unfortunately.
The magnification solution on the Mac is different from what you get
with screen magnifiers on the Windows side, but it is perfectly usable
and very quick to zoom in and out. You just need to find the right
programs that track the cursor properly. It all depends on your
specific needs as a screen magnification user.
Best,
Claire

On Dec 2, 10:38 pm, Declan  wrote:
> On 1 Dec, 15:26, Claire  wrote:> Hi,I also use 
> Zoom in conjunction with VoiceOver and I use Iworks (whichis Apple's 
> equivalent of Microsoft Office which is compatiblewith .doc, .xls and .ppt 
> files). I quite like it and the cursortracking works ok (it jumps a bit at 
> times).I do agree though that there are less options and configurableelements 
> for Zoom than there is for VoiceOver. I have found that manyprograms that 
> work with VO don't work with Zoom.I really do like my Mac though it doesn't 
> have a lot of customizableoptions for low vision users, I hoped this would be 
> corrected in SLbut from what I have heard things are the same there as for 
> Leopard.Best Wishes,Claire
>
> > On Dec 1, 12:23 pm, Declan  wrote:
>
> > - Hide quoted text -
>
> Clair,
>
> I had tried it on Snow Leopard, it was a new iMac 27" at the local Mac
> Store in Southampton.  The mac had the new Magic Mouse.  The IWorks
> was on a laptop.  I am sure it had Snow Leopard.  How did you get it
> to track the cursor?  Was it the same as in TextEdit?  Does Open
> Office work?  Is there a difference when using Zoom with VO and Zoom
> without VO?
>
> To the people who said there was no way to change the size of the
> insertion point, there is a way to increase the size of the mouse
> cursor.  This may increase the size of the insertion point also?
>
> One of the reasons for buying the mac was so that I wouldn't need to
> invest in any more access programs (screen magnifiers).  If I had to
> do this for the mac there would be no point in buying it.  I might try
> to get a quiet PC instead.  One of the reasons why I was very taken
> with the mac was the fact it was almost silent and the built in
> magnification.
>
> Thank you very much for your help so far.

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