RE: O/T RE: NFB, Uber App and a Guide Dog
I agree. However, is this not calling the kettle black? I will say no more on this topic. "E.T for you is where you sweep away all the mysteries of the world, all the challenges to our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off and say E.T did it." ---the world according to E.T Smile. -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of E.T. Sent: September 28, 2017 10:25 AM To: macvisionaries+modera...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: O/T RE: NFB, Uber App and a Guide Dog Mark and Cara, Can we redirect this group back on topic? Unless Apple has developed Apple Guide Dogs, we should save those discussions for a more suitable forum. Thanks. From E.T.'s Keyboard. . . "God for you is where you sweep away all the mysteries of the world, all the challenges to our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off and say God did it." --Carl Sagan E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com On 9/28/2017 10:16 AM, David & his pack of dogs wrote: > I understand where you are coming from re: the iron fist approach. Let's use > the guide dog access as an example. Upon entering a restaurant, you are > promptly told, "You can't bring that dog in here!!! No animals aloud > The iron fist approach is to loudly proclaim, "YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW!!! > The velvet glove approach is too show them the law and try and reason with > them. To put you in the picture so my comment has credibility, an agency told > me I could not bring in my guide dog because people might be allergic to him. > They stuck to the phrase "might be allergic to them" like a strong magnet > and refused to budge even when there was over whelming evidence that no one > was allergic to him. To speed the story up, the adjudicator at the tribunal > told us, "They just don't get it." The other thing was they felt they were > above any law. After shown the public access law on multiple occations, they > attempted to re-write it by saying, "We can't tell you not to bring your > guide we can however, tell you where you should sit." The entire process > took 2 years from inception to going to a tribunal over their arrogance or > obstinence. They foolishly felt if they said he was in the way, smelled and > people might be allergic to him, with 18 letters and a picture of a little > girl with swollen eyes from an allergic reaction, it would help their case. > Naturally, it did not. The picture? The adjudicator put it best when she > said, "There is no date on this picture and nothing to indicate that the > child was not having a reaction to something else." I think the apparent > arrogance of the respondence tried her patients. What organization a person > belongs too, either the ACB NFB or CFB, makes no difference to me, as long as > they handle things properly. If you want a laugh, where we used to live the > Canadian army and navy were quite prevalent. So, upon meeting a person who > introduced herself as belonging to the CFB, I thought she was talking about > the Canadian forces base. Also called the CFB. > > -Original Message- > From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Erik Burggraaf > Sent: September 28, 2017 9:20 AM > To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > Subject: RE: O/T RE: NFB, Uber App and a Guide Dog > > It's ultra political no doubt about that. In my experience, the goods get > dispursed based on who heads a chapter, just as an example, not necessarily > on size. People are people, and it's unfortunate, but you can do one of two > things. You can barry your head in the sand and pretend they don't exist > until you need to trot out the bad. Or you can persevere, take the good they > offer with the bad, and try to leverage the good to make a difference. > > I'm comfortable with the iron fisted approach myself. The nfb does a lot > more than bang the drum, but they do bang the drum a lot, and as long as they > have their facts right, I'm very happy to let them do that. The velvet glove > approach screwed me pretty bad, to the tune of 6.5 grand, three years, and a > successful consulting practice. Now that I have two human rights cases to > work on, I'm not really in a velvet glove kind of mood. That doesn't mean I > won't compromize, just not to the extent of giving up my due process for no > value in return or allowing myself to go without compensation for lost years, > or allowing companies to continue using inaccessibly designed infrastructure. > > Anyhow, I don't want people saying the nfb doesn't support guide dogs, > because that
Re: O/T RE: NFB, Uber App and a Guide Dog
Mark and Cara, Can we redirect this group back on topic? Unless Apple has developed Apple Guide Dogs, we should save those discussions for a more suitable forum. Thanks. From E.T.'s Keyboard. . . "God for you is where you sweep away all the mysteries of the world, all the challenges to our intelligence. You simply turn your mind off and say God did it." --Carl Sagan E-mail: ancient.ali...@icloud.com On 9/28/2017 10:16 AM, David & his pack of dogs wrote: I understand where you are coming from re: the iron fist approach. Let's use the guide dog access as an example. Upon entering a restaurant, you are promptly told, "You can't bring that dog in here!!! No animals aloud The iron fist approach is to loudly proclaim, "YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW!!! The velvet glove approach is too show them the law and try and reason with them. To put you in the picture so my comment has credibility, an agency told me I could not bring in my guide dog because people might be allergic to him. They stuck to the phrase "might be allergic to them" like a strong magnet and refused to budge even when there was over whelming evidence that no one was allergic to him. To speed the story up, the adjudicator at the tribunal told us, "They just don't get it." The other thing was they felt they were above any law. After shown the public access law on multiple occations, they attempted to re-write it by saying, "We can't tell you not to bring your guide we can however, tell you where you should sit." The entire process took 2 years from inception to going to a tribunal over their arrogance or obstinence. They foolishly felt if they said he was in the way, smelled and people might be allergic to him, with 18 letters and a picture of a little girl with swollen eyes from an allergic reaction, it would help their case. Naturally, it did not. The picture? The adjudicator put it best when she said, "There is no date on this picture and nothing to indicate that the child was not having a reaction to something else." I think the apparent arrogance of the respondence tried her patients. What organization a person belongs too, either the ACB NFB or CFB, makes no difference to me, as long as they handle things properly. If you want a laugh, where we used to live the Canadian army and navy were quite prevalent. So, upon meeting a person who introduced herself as belonging to the CFB, I thought she was talking about the Canadian forces base. Also called the CFB. -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Erik Burggraaf Sent: September 28, 2017 9:20 AM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: O/T RE: NFB, Uber App and a Guide Dog It's ultra political no doubt about that. In my experience, the goods get dispursed based on who heads a chapter, just as an example, not necessarily on size. People are people, and it's unfortunate, but you can do one of two things. You can barry your head in the sand and pretend they don't exist until you need to trot out the bad. Or you can persevere, take the good they offer with the bad, and try to leverage the good to make a difference. I'm comfortable with the iron fisted approach myself. The nfb does a lot more than bang the drum, but they do bang the drum a lot, and as long as they have their facts right, I'm very happy to let them do that. The velvet glove approach screwed me pretty bad, to the tune of 6.5 grand, three years, and a successful consulting practice. Now that I have two human rights cases to work on, I'm not really in a velvet glove kind of mood. That doesn't mean I won't compromize, just not to the extent of giving up my due process for no value in return or allowing myself to go without compensation for lost years, or allowing companies to continue using inaccessibly designed infrastructure. Anyhow, I don't want people saying the nfb doesn't support guide dogs, because that isn't true. I'm sorry you had a bad experience that completely put you off the process, but I don't want to miss a chance to help some one with advocacy or living skills or travel or anything else they need because they heard bad things about say, the cfb, and won't approach me.I'm here to help people and despite the fact that it is far from perfect, federationism is the best way to advocate for people who are blind and against the barriers we face in society. Best, Erik On September 28, 2017 12:06:35 PM "David & his pack of dogs" wrote: I have not been on the NAGDU, or as I like to call it, "Not Another Guide Dog User" list for years so, admittedly have no current knowledge about if NFB has changed, or not. MY dealings with them were, they will grab the lime light as ofte
RE: O/T RE: NFB, Uber App and a Guide Dog
I understand where you are coming from re: the iron fist approach. Let's use the guide dog access as an example. Upon entering a restaurant, you are promptly told, "You can't bring that dog in here!!! No animals aloud The iron fist approach is to loudly proclaim, "YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW!!! The velvet glove approach is too show them the law and try and reason with them. To put you in the picture so my comment has credibility, an agency told me I could not bring in my guide dog because people might be allergic to him. They stuck to the phrase "might be allergic to them" like a strong magnet and refused to budge even when there was over whelming evidence that no one was allergic to him. To speed the story up, the adjudicator at the tribunal told us, "They just don't get it." The other thing was they felt they were above any law. After shown the public access law on multiple occations, they attempted to re-write it by saying, "We can't tell you not to bring your guide we can however, tell you where you should sit." The entire process took 2 years from inception to going to a tribunal over their arrogance or obstinence. They foolishly felt if they said he was in the way, smelled and people might be allergic to him, with 18 letters and a picture of a little girl with swollen eyes from an allergic reaction, it would help their case. Naturally, it did not. The picture? The adjudicator put it best when she said, "There is no date on this picture and nothing to indicate that the child was not having a reaction to something else." I think the apparent arrogance of the respondence tried her patients. What organization a person belongs too, either the ACB NFB or CFB, makes no difference to me, as long as they handle things properly. If you want a laugh, where we used to live the Canadian army and navy were quite prevalent. So, upon meeting a person who introduced herself as belonging to the CFB, I thought she was talking about the Canadian forces base. Also called the CFB. -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Erik Burggraaf Sent: September 28, 2017 9:20 AM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: O/T RE: NFB, Uber App and a Guide Dog It's ultra political no doubt about that. In my experience, the goods get dispursed based on who heads a chapter, just as an example, not necessarily on size. People are people, and it's unfortunate, but you can do one of two things. You can barry your head in the sand and pretend they don't exist until you need to trot out the bad. Or you can persevere, take the good they offer with the bad, and try to leverage the good to make a difference. I'm comfortable with the iron fisted approach myself. The nfb does a lot more than bang the drum, but they do bang the drum a lot, and as long as they have their facts right, I'm very happy to let them do that. The velvet glove approach screwed me pretty bad, to the tune of 6.5 grand, three years, and a successful consulting practice. Now that I have two human rights cases to work on, I'm not really in a velvet glove kind of mood. That doesn't mean I won't compromize, just not to the extent of giving up my due process for no value in return or allowing myself to go without compensation for lost years, or allowing companies to continue using inaccessibly designed infrastructure. Anyhow, I don't want people saying the nfb doesn't support guide dogs, because that isn't true. I'm sorry you had a bad experience that completely put you off the process, but I don't want to miss a chance to help some one with advocacy or living skills or travel or anything else they need because they heard bad things about say, the cfb, and won't approach me.I'm here to help people and despite the fact that it is far from perfect, federationism is the best way to advocate for people who are blind and against the barriers we face in society. Best, Erik On September 28, 2017 12:06:35 PM "David & his pack of dogs" wrote: I have not been on the NAGDU, or as I like to call it, "Not Another Guide Dog User" list for years so, admittedly have no current knowledge about if NFB has changed, or not. MY dealings with them were, they will grab the lime light as often as they can, get their nose in things that have nothing to do with blindness so they can stay in the lime light and basically treat people within their organization like dirt if it is felt they have no voice. I E, if a chapter has let's say 15 members and another one has 100, the one with 15 members is viewed as inconsequential and of little value, not worth even listening too. Here is the way the NFB was described to me a long time ago after I left it. Th
RE: O/T RE: NFB, Uber App and a Guide Dog
It's ultra political no doubt about that. In my experience, the goods get dispursed based on who heads a chapter, just as an example, not necessarily on size. People are people, and it's unfortunate, but you can do one of two things. You can barry your head in the sand and pretend they don't exist until you need to trot out the bad. Or you can persevere, take the good they offer with the bad, and try to leverage the good to make a difference. I'm comfortable with the iron fisted approach myself. The nfb does a lot more than bang the drum, but they do bang the drum a lot, and as long as they have their facts right, I'm very happy to let them do that. The velvet glove approach screwed me pretty bad, to the tune of 6.5 grand, three years, and a successful consulting practice. Now that I have two human rights cases to work on, I'm not really in a velvet glove kind of mood. That doesn't mean I won't compromize, just not to the extent of giving up my due process for no value in return or allowing myself to go without compensation for lost years, or allowing companies to continue using inaccessibly designed infrastructure. Anyhow, I don't want people saying the nfb doesn't support guide dogs, because that isn't true. I'm sorry you had a bad experience that completely put you off the process, but I don't want to miss a chance to help some one with advocacy or living skills or travel or anything else they need because they heard bad things about say, the cfb, and won't approach me.I'm here to help people and despite the fact that it is far from perfect, federationism is the best way to advocate for people who are blind and against the barriers we face in society. Best, Erik On September 28, 2017 12:06:35 PM "David & his pack of dogs" wrote: I have not been on the NAGDU, or as I like to call it, "Not Another Guide Dog User" list for years so, admittedly have no current knowledge about if NFB has changed, or not. MY dealings with them were, they will grab the lime light as often as they can, get their nose in things that have nothing to do with blindness so they can stay in the lime light and basically treat people within their organization like dirt if it is felt they have no voice. I E, if a chapter has let's say 15 members and another one has 100, the one with 15 members is viewed as inconsequential and of little value, not worth even listening too. Here is the way the NFB was described to me a long time ago after I left it. They will immediately use an iron fist to get their point across, whereas other agencies will use a velvet glove. If they can be in the lime light, they could care less about blind people. -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Erik Burggraaf Sent: September 28, 2017 7:07 AM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: O/T RE: NFB, Uber App and a Guide Dog Hello all, I was an NFB member for three years, and I am currently a CFB member. The organizations do a lot of things, most of which I personally approve, a few of which I don't. In my limitted experience, the NFB and CFB are both 100% supportive of guidedogs. The NFB has a guide dog division, the national association of guide dog users. They are doing legal advocacy with companies like uber on the guide dog issue and access to information to make the Uber experience better for the blind. I'm sorry that some users have had negative experiences with the NFB and it's treatment of guide dogs. The NFB is slow to adapt. Most of it's bad decisions derive from failing to understand and respond to new challenges. It's also a huge organization at least as far as the NFB. The CFB not so much. It's made up of people and people are infinitely diverse. It has more than the usual alotment of caring, generous, thoughtful, hardworking people, but it also has assholes, climbers, backstabbers and those sorts have a way of positioning themselves so that it can seem like they are powerful voices of the organization. Whatever position the organization may have taken on guide dogs in the past, it is now 100% positively and pro-actively in support of them now, and has been for the short term of my association with them. Considering the power carried by the NFB in deciding for blind Americans what their direction will be, I think it's a good idea to let bygones be bygones, and be informed on current issues in which the NFB is involved. That way, you will have a chance to impact the future. As far as Canadian law, federal statute protects the right of guide dog users to be served in any public place, as if the guide dog were not present. This includes stores, restaurants, transportation services, public accommodations, hospitals, government service centres, and well... I can't actually think of an exclusion now that I come to think of it. If the public can go there and get servi
RE: O/T RE: NFB, Uber App and a Guide Dog
I have not been on the NAGDU, or as I like to call it, "Not Another Guide Dog User" list for years so, admittedly have no current knowledge about if NFB has changed, or not. MY dealings with them were, they will grab the lime light as often as they can, get their nose in things that have nothing to do with blindness so they can stay in the lime light and basically treat people within their organization like dirt if it is felt they have no voice. I E, if a chapter has let's say 15 members and another one has 100, the one with 15 members is viewed as inconsequential and of little value, not worth even listening too. Here is the way the NFB was described to me a long time ago after I left it. They will immediately use an iron fist to get their point across, whereas other agencies will use a velvet glove. If they can be in the lime light, they could care less about blind people. -Original Message- From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Erik Burggraaf Sent: September 28, 2017 7:07 AM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: O/T RE: NFB, Uber App and a Guide Dog Hello all, I was an NFB member for three years, and I am currently a CFB member. The organizations do a lot of things, most of which I personally approve, a few of which I don't. In my limitted experience, the NFB and CFB are both 100% supportive of guidedogs. The NFB has a guide dog division, the national association of guide dog users. They are doing legal advocacy with companies like uber on the guide dog issue and access to information to make the Uber experience better for the blind. I'm sorry that some users have had negative experiences with the NFB and it's treatment of guide dogs. The NFB is slow to adapt. Most of it's bad decisions derive from failing to understand and respond to new challenges. It's also a huge organization at least as far as the NFB. The CFB not so much. It's made up of people and people are infinitely diverse. It has more than the usual alotment of caring, generous, thoughtful, hardworking people, but it also has assholes, climbers, backstabbers and those sorts have a way of positioning themselves so that it can seem like they are powerful voices of the organization. Whatever position the organization may have taken on guide dogs in the past, it is now 100% positively and pro-actively in support of them now, and has been for the short term of my association with them. Considering the power carried by the NFB in deciding for blind Americans what their direction will be, I think it's a good idea to let bygones be bygones, and be informed on current issues in which the NFB is involved. That way, you will have a chance to impact the future. As far as Canadian law, federal statute protects the right of guide dog users to be served in any public place, as if the guide dog were not present. This includes stores, restaurants, transportation services, public accommodations, hospitals, government service centres, and well... I can't actually think of an exclusion now that I come to think of it. If the public can go there and get service, so can a guide dog user. The law does not require guide dog users to identify themselves as having or using a guide dog. That would not come under the heading of being served as if the dog were not there, would it? I don't mind disclosing that I have a guide dog as long as: The disclosure is entirely voluntary. My service is in no way limitted by my disclosure. As in the case of uber, if there is a rideshare available three minutes from my location, but considering my voluntary disclosure of a guide dog, my nearest available ride is now 15 minutes away because three or five providers near me have opted out of taking dogs. Not acceptable. The laws on service animals being different in numerous geographic regions where-in Uber operates, but most favouring guide dog users over transport providers, the safe thing for Uber to do is erre on the side of caution. Especially since they're already being sued. Best, Erik On September 27, 2017 8:06:58 PM Karen Lewellen wrote: Oh neither is mine, I remember when the NFB wanted the state of new York to bar the use of service animals in public buildings...and I do not use a dog myself. Still, that is all the more reason for uber to incorporate this process into the app itself. Or find an objective way to gather this information. Kare On Wed, 27 Sep 2017, David & his pack of dogs wrote: > I will admit, my opinion of the NFB is not good. Don't worry, I will > not air dirty laundry. I just didn't like the way they treated a > guide dog user I knew. Who, had a chapter of the NFB, yet was treated like > dirt. > > -Original Message- > From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Karen Lewellen > Sent: September 27, 2017 2:49 PM > To: macvisionaries@go
