Re: the acsesability of the latest verssion of adium??
this is probably late as i am way behindbut adiumis great now i havfinaly replaced my windows machine evenfor irc On Jan 17, 2011, at 1:06 AM, trahern culver wrote: hey all does any one know how acsesabel the latest verssion of adium is? in past versions voice over wouldn't read past the first message in conversation logs is this still the case in the latest verssion? your help with this question would be most welcom!! kind regards trahern. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: the acsesability of the latest verssion of adium??
I'm still having issues wiht it actually and have sent th dev a screen shot movie of what happens with wht voice over says and sometimes does not say. HOpe he responds. they usually are very good at responding so we'll see. S On Jan 19, 2011, at 7:11 AM, Michael Thurman wrote: this is probably late as i am way behindbut adiumis great now i havfinaly replaced my windows machine evenfor irc On Jan 17, 2011, at 1:06 AM, trahern culver wrote: hey all does any one know how acsesabel the latest verssion of adium is? in past versions voice over wouldn't read past the first message in conversation logs is this still the case in the latest verssion? your help with this question would be most welcom!! kind regards trahern. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: the acsesability of the latest verssion of adium??
That bug can still sometimes happen, but the trick is when you look at the conversation window, press VO + End and you should hear the last message that was sent, and if not Adium might say group, just hit VO and right. Of course if you have growl setup (which I don't) you could configure this to read out the messages automatically. On 17 Jan 2011, at 06:09, Jeffrey Shockley wrote: Hi, Using latest Adium, works great. HTH, Jeffrey On Jan 17, 2011, at 1:06 AM, trahern culver wrote: hey all does any one know how acsesabel the latest verssion of adium is? in past versions voice over wouldn't read past the first message in conversation logs is this still the case in the latest verssion? your help with this question would be most welcom!! kind regards trahern. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: the acsesability of the latest verssion of adium??
In my experience VO has always read the conversation window, as long as dom mode is set. If you change to group then you run into problems. I solved this by making a keyboard commander key to switch between dom and group so I can have group mode for browsing and get dom back for reviewing conversations on adium. Best, Erik Burggraaf User support consultant, Now posting occasionally on twitter at eburggraaf, 1-888-255-5194 http://www.erik-burggraaf.com On 2011-01-17, at 1:06 AM, trahern culver wrote: hey all does any one know how acsesabel the latest verssion of adium is? in past versions voice over wouldn't read past the first message in conversation logs is this still the case in the latest verssion? your help with this question would be most welcom!! kind regards trahern. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: the acsesability of the latest verssion of adium??
Wait what? People actually browse the web in group mode' What are the benefits of this? Isn't that just going to make things a lot more complicated? On 1/17/11, erik burggraaf e...@erik-burggraaf.com wrote: In my experience VO has always read the conversation window, as long as dom mode is set. If you change to group then you run into problems. I solved this by making a keyboard commander key to switch between dom and group so I can have group mode for browsing and get dom back for reviewing conversations on adium. Best, Erik Burggraaf User support consultant, Now posting occasionally on twitter at eburggraaf, 1-888-255-5194 http://www.erik-burggraaf.com On 2011-01-17, at 1:06 AM, trahern culver wrote: hey all does any one know how acsesabel the latest verssion of adium is? in past versions voice over wouldn't read past the first message in conversation logs is this still the case in the latest verssion? your help with this question would be most welcom!! kind regards trahern. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
group mode was Re: the acsesability of the latest verssion of adium??
Uh, well it really depends a lot on the person who is browsing and the sites they look at. Some sites actually to not display information properly in one or the other mode. For an example of a site that doesn't really display properly in dom mode, see http://www.erik-burggraaf.com. This site displays all it's information properly in group, but leaves things out in dom. Group mode vastly improves navigation on sites driven by lists and tables. It also makes for a great way to skip over useless or duplicate information on large web pages, especially if they have no headings for the purpose. It's fantastic for reading the articles that often get posted here because it groups the article together and the adds together, so you can ignore the ads and read the article. It does take a lot of practice though, and I have seen people get hopelessly lost, especially elderly people. It's not for everyone or every site, but on many sites it's a huge advantage. Plus I use the item chooser a whole lot. I do occasionally look at a whole page, but very seldom. It just takes to much time, even at 400 words per minute. Best, Erik Burggraaf User support consultant, Now posting occasionally on twitter at eburggraaf, 1-888-255-5194 http://www.erik-burggraaf.com On 2011-01-17, at 8:47 AM, Oriol Gómez wrote: Wait what? People actually browse the web in group mode' What are the benefits of this? Isn't that just going to make things a lot more complicated? On 1/17/11, erik burggraaf e...@erik-burggraaf.com wrote: In my experience VO has always read the conversation window, as long as dom mode is set. If you change to group then you run into problems. I solved this by making a keyboard commander key to switch between dom and group so I can have group mode for browsing and get dom back for reviewing conversations on adium. Best, Erik Burggraaf User support consultant, Now posting occasionally on twitter at eburggraaf, 1-888-255-5194 http://www.erik-burggraaf.com On 2011-01-17, at 1:06 AM, trahern culver wrote: hey all does any one know how acsesabel the latest verssion of adium is? in past versions voice over wouldn't read past the first message in conversation logs is this still the case in the latest verssion? your help with this question would be most welcom!! kind regards trahern. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: the acsesability of the latest verssion of adium??
It did for me at least. lol. I tried, and just couldn't get the hang of it. Ricardo Walker rwalker...@gmail.com Twitter, Skype, and AIM: rwalker296 Google Voice: 1-646-450-2197 On Jan 17, 2011, at 8:47 AM, Oriol Gómez wrote: Wait what? People actually browse the web in group mode' What are the benefits of this? Isn't that just going to make things a lot more complicated? On 1/17/11, erik burggraaf e...@erik-burggraaf.com wrote: In my experience VO has always read the conversation window, as long as dom mode is set. If you change to group then you run into problems. I solved this by making a keyboard commander key to switch between dom and group so I can have group mode for browsing and get dom back for reviewing conversations on adium. Best, Erik Burggraaf User support consultant, Now posting occasionally on twitter at eburggraaf, 1-888-255-5194 http://www.erik-burggraaf.com On 2011-01-17, at 1:06 AM, trahern culver wrote: hey all does any one know how acsesabel the latest verssion of adium is? in past versions voice over wouldn't read past the first message in conversation logs is this still the case in the latest verssion? your help with this question would be most welcom!! kind regards trahern. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: group mode was Re: the acsesability of the latest verssion of adium??
Hi, I find that on many sites, pressing command shift R to enter the article reader works great. Ricardo Walker rwalker...@gmail.com Twitter, Skype, and AIM: rwalker296 Google Voice: 1-646-450-2197 On Jan 17, 2011, at 9:04 AM, erik burggraaf wrote: Uh, well it really depends a lot on the person who is browsing and the sites they look at. Some sites actually to not display information properly in one or the other mode. For an example of a site that doesn't really display properly in dom mode, see http://www.erik-burggraaf.com. This site displays all it's information properly in group, but leaves things out in dom. Group mode vastly improves navigation on sites driven by lists and tables. It also makes for a great way to skip over useless or duplicate information on large web pages, especially if they have no headings for the purpose. It's fantastic for reading the articles that often get posted here because it groups the article together and the adds together, so you can ignore the ads and read the article. It does take a lot of practice though, and I have seen people get hopelessly lost, especially elderly people. It's not for everyone or every site, but on many sites it's a huge advantage. Plus I use the item chooser a whole lot. I do occasionally look at a whole page, but very seldom. It just takes to much time, even at 400 words per minute. Best, Erik Burggraaf User support consultant, Now posting occasionally on twitter at eburggraaf, 1-888-255-5194 http://www.erik-burggraaf.com On 2011-01-17, at 8:47 AM, Oriol Gómez wrote: Wait what? People actually browse the web in group mode' What are the benefits of this? Isn't that just going to make things a lot more complicated? On 1/17/11, erik burggraaf e...@erik-burggraaf.com wrote: In my experience VO has always read the conversation window, as long as dom mode is set. If you change to group then you run into problems. I solved this by making a keyboard commander key to switch between dom and group so I can have group mode for browsing and get dom back for reviewing conversations on adium. Best, Erik Burggraaf User support consultant, Now posting occasionally on twitter at eburggraaf, 1-888-255-5194 http://www.erik-burggraaf.com On 2011-01-17, at 1:06 AM, trahern culver wrote: hey all does any one know how acsesabel the latest verssion of adium is? in past versions voice over wouldn't read past the first message in conversation logs is this still the case in the latest verssion? your help with this question would be most welcom!! kind regards trahern. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: the acsesability of the latest verssion of adium??
I must admit I do use group mode for certain websites where I can whizz up and down and around quicker then linear DOM mode and group mode can be very handy when you use the main Facebook site. On 17 Jan 2011, at 13:47, Oriol Gómez wrote: Wait what? People actually browse the web in group mode' What are the benefits of this? Isn't that just going to make things a lot more complicated? On 1/17/11, erik burggraaf e...@erik-burggraaf.com wrote: In my experience VO has always read the conversation window, as long as dom mode is set. If you change to group then you run into problems. I solved this by making a keyboard commander key to switch between dom and group so I can have group mode for browsing and get dom back for reviewing conversations on adium. Best, Erik Burggraaf User support consultant, Now posting occasionally on twitter at eburggraaf, 1-888-255-5194 http://www.erik-burggraaf.com On 2011-01-17, at 1:06 AM, trahern culver wrote: hey all does any one know how acsesabel the latest verssion of adium is? in past versions voice over wouldn't read past the first message in conversation logs is this still the case in the latest verssion? your help with this question would be most welcom!! kind regards trahern. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: group mode was Re: the acsesability of the latest verssion of adium??
Lazy bitch lol but yeah that works on some sites too. On 17 Jan 2011, at 14:25, Ricardo Walker wrote: Hi, I find that on many sites, pressing command shift R to enter the article reader works great. Ricardo Walker rwalker...@gmail.com Twitter, Skype, and AIM: rwalker296 Google Voice: 1-646-450-2197 On Jan 17, 2011, at 9:04 AM, erik burggraaf wrote: Uh, well it really depends a lot on the person who is browsing and the sites they look at. Some sites actually to not display information properly in one or the other mode. For an example of a site that doesn't really display properly in dom mode, see http://www.erik-burggraaf.com. This site displays all it's information properly in group, but leaves things out in dom. Group mode vastly improves navigation on sites driven by lists and tables. It also makes for a great way to skip over useless or duplicate information on large web pages, especially if they have no headings for the purpose. It's fantastic for reading the articles that often get posted here because it groups the article together and the adds together, so you can ignore the ads and read the article. It does take a lot of practice though, and I have seen people get hopelessly lost, especially elderly people. It's not for everyone or every site, but on many sites it's a huge advantage. Plus I use the item chooser a whole lot. I do occasionally look at a whole page, but very seldom. It just takes to much time, even at 400 words per minute. Best, Erik Burggraaf User support consultant, Now posting occasionally on twitter at eburggraaf, 1-888-255-5194 http://www.erik-burggraaf.com On 2011-01-17, at 8:47 AM, Oriol Gómez wrote: Wait what? People actually browse the web in group mode' What are the benefits of this? Isn't that just going to make things a lot more complicated? On 1/17/11, erik burggraaf e...@erik-burggraaf.com wrote: In my experience VO has always read the conversation window, as long as dom mode is set. If you change to group then you run into problems. I solved this by making a keyboard commander key to switch between dom and group so I can have group mode for browsing and get dom back for reviewing conversations on adium. Best, Erik Burggraaf User support consultant, Now posting occasionally on twitter at eburggraaf, 1-888-255-5194 http://www.erik-burggraaf.com On 2011-01-17, at 1:06 AM, trahern culver wrote: hey all does any one know how acsesabel the latest verssion of adium is? in past versions voice over wouldn't read past the first message in conversation logs is this still the case in the latest verssion? your help with this question would be most welcom!! kind regards trahern. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: the acsesability of the latest verssion of adium??
Actually adium still has trouble with it. I sent the developer a screen shot vid of what happened along with a discription of what vo was saying.. Sometimes it works t turn off curser tracking to read the rest of the messages and sometimes not. s On Jan 16, 2011, at 10:09 PM, Jeffrey Shockley wrote: Hi, Using latest Adium, works great. HTH, Jeffrey On Jan 17, 2011, at 1:06 AM, trahern culver wrote: hey all does any one know how acsesabel the latest verssion of adium is? in past versions voice over wouldn't read past the first message in conversation logs is this still the case in the latest verssion? your help with this question would be most welcom!! kind regards trahern. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: the acsesability of the latest verssion of adium??
Hi, Using latest Adium, works great. HTH, Jeffrey On Jan 17, 2011, at 1:06 AM, trahern culver wrote: hey all does any one know how acsesabel the latest verssion of adium is? in past versions voice over wouldn't read past the first message in conversation logs is this still the case in the latest verssion? your help with this question would be most welcom!! kind regards trahern. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups MacVisionaries group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
