Re: vo randomly restarts in safari
Yup. That has been an ongoing fight for years going back to the Web Standard Project and Jeffry Zeldman. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Standards_Project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Zeldman I use the canary and future proofing arguments with developers all the time to try and convince them to fix bad stuff under the hood, which generally makes screen readers work better. CB On 11/26/12 10:09 PM, James Mannion wrote: You make some good points that I can't disagree with. If we could just have developed standards and have them used, that would take us down the best route I think. On 11/26/12, Chris Blouch wrote: There are a couple difficulties with the secret repair approach: 1. It enables developers to continue with bad habits which they will apply to more and more pages over time. At some point they need to learn to stop doing bad things. Often time the bad behavior also conflicts with web standards and best practices so sloppy code will break other things down the road (canary in the coal mine scenarios). The show up as weird intermittent hard to track down issues which burn up developer time 'fixing accessibility'. 2. The automated repair techniques can also get it wrong, making correct page code do bad things, or do the repair incorrectly in some situations. This makes some bugs hard to track down since a chunk of bad code in one situation works ok but fails in the other leaving the developer scratching their heads and just saying the screen readers are buggy, inconsistent and therefore accessibility is just to much work. 3. It's a black hole for screen reader developer time. I'm sure the Jaws, NVDA or VoiceOver developers can pretty quickly define how much implementation time it will take to parse correct HTML and give a reasonable text representation, but how many use cases and scenarios are there to implement for handling all the incorrect HTML? An infinite number of monkeys and typewriters might be able to do that but most companies have finite budgets, even Apple. CB On 11/24/12 2:57 PM, James Mannion wrote: I would say if the screen reader can "fix" bad code and make it work the way it should have, please do it! There are more than plenty of instances where you will never get the developer to fix it or even begin to care. If you do then there are advantages to that, but who knows how many weeks, months or years it would take for that to happen. So how about if the screen reader told you it corrected something, allowed you to turn that functionality off if you really wanted to and then you could get tings done and then take all your time trying to right the world in Nigotiations with the developer if you wanted to. Have fun. On 11/24/12, Jürgen Fleger wrote: Got it. That's really interesting. I like this way of philosophie. But on the other hand for a "simple" user the most important seems to be that the screen reader just works. The "average" user is probably not interested in technical back ground stuff but in just working with a web side as easily as possible. Eventually that's Apples philosophie in all there products for sighted customers. I wished they tried to implement some stuff in VO to compensate bad code from web side developers. In the end it takes my time to surf a web side not theirs. But thanks again for your explanation. It gives me more clarity. Jürgen Am 24.11.2012 um 01:45 schrieb Chris Blouch : One problem with Jaws is that it will attempt to 'repair' bad HTML under the hood. For testing this masks errors in a site from developers such that Jaws might work ok but other screen readers are not as tolerant of bad code in a particular setup. VoiceOver on Mac and NVDA on Windows do not attempt to repair bad code and rely on developers doing the right thing to begin with. This philosophical difference means comparisons of compatibility between Jaws and any other screen reader/browser combo just isn't going to match. CB On 11/22/12 11:18 AM, Jürgen Fleger wrote: That happens here as well. Apple probably will tell you that it depends how the side is built. I recently discribed to them the issue that VO quite often doesn't interact with a web page, despite the fact that it's checked in the the VO settings. They told me it depends on the web side not on VO. My impression is Safari is not built to support all the possibilities of VoiceOver. And so it seems not to work reliablly. But I wonder why it works in Internet Explorer and Jaws on the same side. Maybe the structure of Internet Explorer allows a better compatibility to a screen reader. I don't know. But if it is not a VO issue and it works in Windows screen readers it might be so. Am 20.11.2012 um 18:53 schrieb Alex Hall : Hi all, Every so often, when I load or reload a page, vo will restart. I will hear "Voiceover on" after several seconds of intense activity from the hard drive, and things will proceed normally from there. Why would vo be crashing, and are there logs I could use to pinpoint t
Re: vo randomly restarts in safari
You make some good points that I can't disagree with. If we could just have developed standards and have them used, that would take us down the best route I think. On 11/26/12, Chris Blouch wrote: > There are a couple difficulties with the secret repair approach: > > 1. It enables developers to continue with bad habits which they will > apply to more and more pages over time. At some point they need to learn > to stop doing bad things. Often time the bad behavior also conflicts > with web standards and best practices so sloppy code will break other > things down the road (canary in the coal mine scenarios). The show up as > weird intermittent hard to track down issues which burn up developer > time 'fixing accessibility'. > > 2. The automated repair techniques can also get it wrong, making correct > page code do bad things, or do the repair incorrectly in some > situations. This makes some bugs hard to track down since a chunk of bad > code in one situation works ok but fails in the other leaving the > developer scratching their heads and just saying the screen readers are > buggy, inconsistent and therefore accessibility is just to much work. > > 3. It's a black hole for screen reader developer time. I'm sure the > Jaws, NVDA or VoiceOver developers can pretty quickly define how much > implementation time it will take to parse correct HTML and give a > reasonable text representation, but how many use cases and scenarios are > there to implement for handling all the incorrect HTML? An infinite > number of monkeys and typewriters might be able to do that but most > companies have finite budgets, even Apple. > > CB > > On 11/24/12 2:57 PM, James Mannion wrote: >> I would say if the screen reader can "fix" bad code and make it work >> the way it should have, please do it! There are more than plenty of >> instances where you will never get the developer to fix it or even >> begin to care. If you do then there are advantages to that, but who >> knows how many weeks, months or years it would take for that to >> happen. So how about if the screen reader told you it corrected >> something, allowed you to turn that functionality off if you really >> wanted to and then you could get tings done and then take all your >> time trying to right the world in Nigotiations with the developer if >> you wanted to. Have fun. >> >> On 11/24/12, Jürgen Fleger wrote: >>> Got it. That's really interesting. I like this way of philosophie. But >>> on >>> the other hand for a "simple" user the most important seems to be that >>> the >>> screen reader just works. The "average" user is probably not interested >>> in >>> technical back ground stuff but in just working with a web side as easily >>> as >>> possible. Eventually that's Apples philosophie in all there products for >>> sighted customers. >>> I wished they tried to implement some stuff in VO to compensate bad code >>> from web side developers. In the end it takes my time to surf a web side >>> not >>> theirs. >>> But thanks again for your explanation. It gives me more clarity. >>> Jürgen >>> >>> Am 24.11.2012 um 01:45 schrieb Chris Blouch : >>> One problem with Jaws is that it will attempt to 'repair' bad HTML under the hood. For testing this masks errors in a site from developers such that Jaws might work ok but other screen readers are not as tolerant of bad code in a particular setup. VoiceOver on Mac and NVDA on Windows do not attempt to repair bad code and rely on developers doing the right thing to begin with. This philosophical difference means comparisons of compatibility between Jaws and any other screen reader/browser combo just isn't going to match. CB On 11/22/12 11:18 AM, Jürgen Fleger wrote: > That happens here as well. Apple probably will tell you that it > depends > how the side is built. > I recently discribed to them the issue that VO quite often doesn't > interact with a web page, despite the fact that it's checked in the > the > VO settings. They told me it depends on the web side not on VO. My > impression is Safari is not built to support all the possibilities of > VoiceOver. And so it seems not to work reliablly. But I wonder why it > works in Internet Explorer and Jaws on the same side. Maybe the > structure > of Internet Explorer allows a better compatibility to a screen reader. > I > don't know. But if it is not a VO issue and it works in Windows screen > readers it might be so. > > Am 20.11.2012 um 18:53 schrieb Alex Hall : > >> Hi all, >> Every so often, when I load or reload a page, vo will restart. I will >> hear "Voiceover on" after several seconds of intense activity from >> the >> hard drive, and things will proceed normally from there. Why would vo >> be >> crashing, and are there logs I could use to pinpoint the problem or >> at >> least tell Apple what is going on
Re: vo randomly restarts in safari
There are a couple difficulties with the secret repair approach: 1. It enables developers to continue with bad habits which they will apply to more and more pages over time. At some point they need to learn to stop doing bad things. Often time the bad behavior also conflicts with web standards and best practices so sloppy code will break other things down the road (canary in the coal mine scenarios). The show up as weird intermittent hard to track down issues which burn up developer time 'fixing accessibility'. 2. The automated repair techniques can also get it wrong, making correct page code do bad things, or do the repair incorrectly in some situations. This makes some bugs hard to track down since a chunk of bad code in one situation works ok but fails in the other leaving the developer scratching their heads and just saying the screen readers are buggy, inconsistent and therefore accessibility is just to much work. 3. It's a black hole for screen reader developer time. I'm sure the Jaws, NVDA or VoiceOver developers can pretty quickly define how much implementation time it will take to parse correct HTML and give a reasonable text representation, but how many use cases and scenarios are there to implement for handling all the incorrect HTML? An infinite number of monkeys and typewriters might be able to do that but most companies have finite budgets, even Apple. CB On 11/24/12 2:57 PM, James Mannion wrote: I would say if the screen reader can "fix" bad code and make it work the way it should have, please do it! There are more than plenty of instances where you will never get the developer to fix it or even begin to care. If you do then there are advantages to that, but who knows how many weeks, months or years it would take for that to happen. So how about if the screen reader told you it corrected something, allowed you to turn that functionality off if you really wanted to and then you could get tings done and then take all your time trying to right the world in Nigotiations with the developer if you wanted to. Have fun. On 11/24/12, Jürgen Fleger wrote: Got it. That's really interesting. I like this way of philosophie. But on the other hand for a "simple" user the most important seems to be that the screen reader just works. The "average" user is probably not interested in technical back ground stuff but in just working with a web side as easily as possible. Eventually that's Apples philosophie in all there products for sighted customers. I wished they tried to implement some stuff in VO to compensate bad code from web side developers. In the end it takes my time to surf a web side not theirs. But thanks again for your explanation. It gives me more clarity. Jürgen Am 24.11.2012 um 01:45 schrieb Chris Blouch : One problem with Jaws is that it will attempt to 'repair' bad HTML under the hood. For testing this masks errors in a site from developers such that Jaws might work ok but other screen readers are not as tolerant of bad code in a particular setup. VoiceOver on Mac and NVDA on Windows do not attempt to repair bad code and rely on developers doing the right thing to begin with. This philosophical difference means comparisons of compatibility between Jaws and any other screen reader/browser combo just isn't going to match. CB On 11/22/12 11:18 AM, Jürgen Fleger wrote: That happens here as well. Apple probably will tell you that it depends how the side is built. I recently discribed to them the issue that VO quite often doesn't interact with a web page, despite the fact that it's checked in the the VO settings. They told me it depends on the web side not on VO. My impression is Safari is not built to support all the possibilities of VoiceOver. And so it seems not to work reliablly. But I wonder why it works in Internet Explorer and Jaws on the same side. Maybe the structure of Internet Explorer allows a better compatibility to a screen reader. I don't know. But if it is not a VO issue and it works in Windows screen readers it might be so. Am 20.11.2012 um 18:53 schrieb Alex Hall : Hi all, Every so often, when I load or reload a page, vo will restart. I will hear "Voiceover on" after several seconds of intense activity from the hard drive, and things will proceed normally from there. Why would vo be crashing, and are there logs I could use to pinpoint the problem or at least tell Apple what is going on? Have a great day, Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini) mehg...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send
Re: vo randomly restarts in safari
I would say if the screen reader can "fix" bad code and make it work the way it should have, please do it! There are more than plenty of instances where you will never get the developer to fix it or even begin to care. If you do then there are advantages to that, but who knows how many weeks, months or years it would take for that to happen. So how about if the screen reader told you it corrected something, allowed you to turn that functionality off if you really wanted to and then you could get tings done and then take all your time trying to right the world in Nigotiations with the developer if you wanted to. Have fun. On 11/24/12, Jürgen Fleger wrote: > Got it. That's really interesting. I like this way of philosophie. But on > the other hand for a "simple" user the most important seems to be that the > screen reader just works. The "average" user is probably not interested in > technical back ground stuff but in just working with a web side as easily as > possible. Eventually that's Apples philosophie in all there products for > sighted customers. > I wished they tried to implement some stuff in VO to compensate bad code > from web side developers. In the end it takes my time to surf a web side not > theirs. > But thanks again for your explanation. It gives me more clarity. > Jürgen > > Am 24.11.2012 um 01:45 schrieb Chris Blouch : > >> One problem with Jaws is that it will attempt to 'repair' bad HTML under >> the hood. For testing this masks errors in a site from developers such >> that Jaws might work ok but other screen readers are not as tolerant of >> bad code in a particular setup. VoiceOver on Mac and NVDA on Windows do >> not attempt to repair bad code and rely on developers doing the right >> thing to begin with. This philosophical difference means comparisons of >> compatibility between Jaws and any other screen reader/browser combo just >> isn't going to match. >> >> CB >> >> On 11/22/12 11:18 AM, Jürgen Fleger wrote: >>> That happens here as well. Apple probably will tell you that it depends >>> how the side is built. >>> I recently discribed to them the issue that VO quite often doesn't >>> interact with a web page, despite the fact that it's checked in the the >>> VO settings. They told me it depends on the web side not on VO. My >>> impression is Safari is not built to support all the possibilities of >>> VoiceOver. And so it seems not to work reliablly. But I wonder why it >>> works in Internet Explorer and Jaws on the same side. Maybe the structure >>> of Internet Explorer allows a better compatibility to a screen reader. I >>> don't know. But if it is not a VO issue and it works in Windows screen >>> readers it might be so. >>> >>> Am 20.11.2012 um 18:53 schrieb Alex Hall : >>> Hi all, Every so often, when I load or reload a page, vo will restart. I will hear "Voiceover on" after several seconds of intense activity from the hard drive, and things will proceed normally from there. Why would vo be crashing, and are there logs I could use to pinpoint the problem or at least tell Apple what is going on? Have a great day, Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini) mehg...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> >> -- >> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: vo randomly restarts in safari
Got it. That's really interesting. I like this way of philosophie. But on the other hand for a "simple" user the most important seems to be that the screen reader just works. The "average" user is probably not interested in technical back ground stuff but in just working with a web side as easily as possible. Eventually that's Apples philosophie in all there products for sighted customers. I wished they tried to implement some stuff in VO to compensate bad code from web side developers. In the end it takes my time to surf a web side not theirs. But thanks again for your explanation. It gives me more clarity. Jürgen Am 24.11.2012 um 01:45 schrieb Chris Blouch : > One problem with Jaws is that it will attempt to 'repair' bad HTML under the > hood. For testing this masks errors in a site from developers such that Jaws > might work ok but other screen readers are not as tolerant of bad code in a > particular setup. VoiceOver on Mac and NVDA on Windows do not attempt to > repair bad code and rely on developers doing the right thing to begin with. > This philosophical difference means comparisons of compatibility between Jaws > and any other screen reader/browser combo just isn't going to match. > > CB > > On 11/22/12 11:18 AM, Jürgen Fleger wrote: >> That happens here as well. Apple probably will tell you that it depends how >> the side is built. >> I recently discribed to them the issue that VO quite often doesn't interact >> with a web page, despite the fact that it's checked in the the VO settings. >> They told me it depends on the web side not on VO. My impression is Safari >> is not built to support all the possibilities of VoiceOver. And so it seems >> not to work reliablly. But I wonder why it works in Internet Explorer and >> Jaws on the same side. Maybe the structure of Internet Explorer allows a >> better compatibility to a screen reader. I don't know. But if it is not a VO >> issue and it works in Windows screen readers it might be so. >> >> Am 20.11.2012 um 18:53 schrieb Alex Hall : >> >>> Hi all, >>> Every so often, when I load or reload a page, vo will restart. I will hear >>> "Voiceover on" after several seconds of intense activity from the hard >>> drive, and things will proceed normally from there. Why would vo be >>> crashing, and are there logs I could use to pinpoint the problem or at >>> least tell Apple what is going on? >>> >>> >>> Have a great day, >>> Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini) >>> mehg...@gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > -- > ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: vo randomly restarts in safari
One problem with Jaws is that it will attempt to 'repair' bad HTML under the hood. For testing this masks errors in a site from developers such that Jaws might work ok but other screen readers are not as tolerant of bad code in a particular setup. VoiceOver on Mac and NVDA on Windows do not attempt to repair bad code and rely on developers doing the right thing to begin with. This philosophical difference means comparisons of compatibility between Jaws and any other screen reader/browser combo just isn't going to match. CB On 11/22/12 11:18 AM, Jürgen Fleger wrote: That happens here as well. Apple probably will tell you that it depends how the side is built. I recently discribed to them the issue that VO quite often doesn't interact with a web page, despite the fact that it's checked in the the VO settings. They told me it depends on the web side not on VO. My impression is Safari is not built to support all the possibilities of VoiceOver. And so it seems not to work reliablly. But I wonder why it works in Internet Explorer and Jaws on the same side. Maybe the structure of Internet Explorer allows a better compatibility to a screen reader. I don't know. But if it is not a VO issue and it works in Windows screen readers it might be so. Am 20.11.2012 um 18:53 schrieb Alex Hall : Hi all, Every so often, when I load or reload a page, vo will restart. I will hear "Voiceover on" after several seconds of intense activity from the hard drive, and things will proceed normally from there. Why would vo be crashing, and are there logs I could use to pinpoint the problem or at least tell Apple what is going on? Have a great day, Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini) mehg...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: vo randomly restarts in safari
That happens here as well. Apple probably will tell you that it depends how the side is built. I recently discribed to them the issue that VO quite often doesn't interact with a web page despite the fact that it's checked in the Am 20.11.2012 um 18:53 schrieb Alex Hall : > Hi all, > Every so often, when I load or reload a page, vo will restart. I will hear > "Voiceover on" after several seconds of intense activity from the hard drive, > and things will proceed normally from there. Why would vo be crashing, and > are there logs I could use to pinpoint the problem or at least tell Apple > what is going on? > > > Have a great day, > Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini) > mehg...@gmail.com > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
Re: vo randomly restarts in safari
That happens here as well. Apple probably will tell you that it depends how the side is built. I recently discribed to them the issue that VO quite often doesn't interact with a web page, despite the fact that it's checked in the the VO settings. They told me it depends on the web side not on VO. My impression is Safari is not built to support all the possibilities of VoiceOver. And so it seems not to work reliablly. But I wonder why it works in Internet Explorer and Jaws on the same side. Maybe the structure of Internet Explorer allows a better compatibility to a screen reader. I don't know. But if it is not a VO issue and it works in Windows screen readers it might be so. Am 20.11.2012 um 18:53 schrieb Alex Hall : > Hi all, > Every so often, when I load or reload a page, vo will restart. I will hear > "Voiceover on" after several seconds of intense activity from the hard drive, > and things will proceed normally from there. Why would vo be crashing, and > are there logs I could use to pinpoint the problem or at least tell Apple > what is going on? > > > Have a great day, > Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini) > mehg...@gmail.com > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
vo randomly restarts in safari
Hi all, Every so often, when I load or reload a page, vo will restart. I will hear "Voiceover on" after several seconds of intense activity from the hard drive, and things will proceed normally from there. Why would vo be crashing, and are there logs I could use to pinpoint the problem or at least tell Apple what is going on? Have a great day, Alex (msg sent from Mac Mini) mehg...@gmail.com -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en.
