Re: [maemo-developers] ipkg vs dpkg
Zeeshan Ali writes: > > Repeat after me: "the 770 is not an embedded system". It is a small > > computer with neither a qwerty keyboard nor a big hard drive, nor a > > really fast processor. > >You are kidding, right? Anything is an embedded system if it: > > 1. has a small memory and secondary storage > 2. has a slow processor The 486/33 PC on my right is an embedded system? > 3. is intended to serve some 'specific' purpose(s). > >How do you define an 'embedded system'? A device where the manufacturer defines what it does, you don't particularly care that it has a computer built into it, and you don't get to turn it into something else. E.g. a WRT54G is an embedded system because it really can't do much besides route packets. My camera is an embedded system. Older cellphones were embedded systems, but now that you can run Java on them, they're computers. This is not just an academic distinction. An embedded system might have upgradable firmware, but they'll be images of the entire firmware, and you lose everything when you upgrade. A computer has upgradable packages. An embedded system might interface with a computer, e.g. I might want to connect my camera up to my 770. -- --my blog is at blog.russnelson.com | A computer without Python is Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | like a CPU without memory: 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 | it runs, but you can't do Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog | anything useful with it. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] ipkg vs dpkg
Matthew Allum writes: > Okey, but surely some of the metadata you've measured is dependant on > whats actually in the package ? Yes, definitely. The packages + package manager are a system. But still, my figures show that debian packages plus dpkg store 10X the overhead of ipkgs plus ipkg. A better comparison would probably be to compare one apple to another apple: install the same ARM package on a Familiar machine, and some ARM machine running Debian. It sounds like you're saying that it's probably not appropriate to install vanilla debian packages on the 770, and I would agree with you if so. IMHO it's possible to automagically process a single debian package into a set of "small system" (not embedded system!!) packages. Dare I say ipkgs? :-) > > How do we get there from here? > > Somebody writes something new that kicks arse and addresses the issues > with dpkg and ipkg. Hrm. ipkg was written to address the issues with dpkg. Are the problems with ipkg caused by its nature as a package manager, or are they an artifact of its implementation? Just being a worry wart. > "the 770 is not an embedded system" - OK :) You understand my point > though - we could argue all week on if my digitial watch for example > was a small computer or an embedded system. If you can install new software on it, and there's no way to predict what application area the software might address, then it's a small computer. For example, the Linksys WRT54G is definitely an embedded system, because anything it runs will be a wifi / routing / communications application. Is there *any* application area closed to the 770? I suppose "presentations", but if there's a bluetooth or wifi VGA display, then not. -- --my blog is at blog.russnelson.com | A computer without Python is Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | like a CPU without memory: 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 | it runs, but you can't do Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog | anything useful with it. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] ipkg vs dpkg
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Tomas Frydrych wrote: > > Kalle Vahlman wrote: > >> Build environment as in the Maemo and packages as in the existing >> dbus/ dir contents (bad wording, sorry). If you need to port all of >> Maemo to a new pkg management just to use ipkg, well... > > >> Granted, you need to recreate the packages for AI currently too so >> perhaps it's not an issue. > > > In fact, there is very little involved in making a deb package work with > the AI -- if your app is well designed, you basically just need to pass > --prefix=/var/lib/install/wherever_you_want_it to configure, and make > sure to replace any standard system dependencies with the 'maemo' > dependency; there are useful scripts in ApplicationCatalog to help with > this. > > So far in this discussion nobody has been able to demonstrate any > genuine advantage to using ipkg over dpkg on the 770. ipkg resolves dependencies like apt, dpkg can't. regards, Koen > More > significantly, the dpgk is already on the system and maintains a > database of installed applications. It really escapes me what the issue > here is, other than Nokia wanting to keep the system (under /) > completely separate from the applications installed by the AI (under > /var/lib/install) -- unless Nokia changes this policy, there is not much > to be discussed; your packages need work with the AI. > > Tomas > > > ___ Yahoo! Model > Search 2005 - Find the next catwalk superstars - > http://uk.news.yahoo.com/hot/model-search/ > ___ > maemo-developers mailing list > maemo-developers@maemo.org > https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFDjGykMkyGM64RGpERAvwJAJ4r8XXLlpG7AnApzGqb09X8TJ9S8gCgkAcQ HvTtwoz9iCnCI800xDMKKj8= =4WqI -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] ipkg vs dpkg
Kalle Vahlman wrote: Build environment as in the Maemo and packages as in the existing dbus/ dir contents (bad wording, sorry). If you need to port all of Maemo to a new pkg management just to use ipkg, well... Granted, you need to recreate the packages for AI currently too so perhaps it's not an issue. In fact, there is very little involved in making a deb package work with the AI -- if your app is well designed, you basically just need to pass --prefix=/var/lib/install/wherever_you_want_it to configure, and make sure to replace any standard system dependencies with the 'maemo' dependency; there are useful scripts in ApplicationCatalog to help with this. So far in this discussion nobody has been able to demonstrate any genuine advantage to using ipkg over dpkg on the 770. More significantly, the dpgk is already on the system and maintains a database of installed applications. It really escapes me what the issue here is, other than Nokia wanting to keep the system (under /) completely separate from the applications installed by the AI (under /var/lib/install) -- unless Nokia changes this policy, there is not much to be discussed; your packages need work with the AI. Tomas ___ Yahoo! Model Search 2005 - Find the next catwalk superstars - http://uk.news.yahoo.com/hot/model-search/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] ipkg vs dpkg
2005/11/29, Koen Kooi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Kalle Vahlman wrote: > > So we are talking about changing a rarely used utility to save less > > than one percent of the flash space? With modifications to who knows > > what amount of the packages included? > > I wouldn't call ipkg rarely used, Familiar, OpenZaurus, openwrt, > SlugOS, pdaXrom, sharpROM and several other distros have been using it > for years. Oh, they install stuff on the device all the time?-) I meant frequency of use by "rarely used". > > Or is ipkg a drop-in replacement for dpkg, requiring no changes to > > build environments or the packages themselves? > > a .ipkg should be compatible with a .deb (ar wrapped tarballs). See > http://handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/Ipkg for details. Iirc ipkg should be > able to install .debs and dpkg should be able to install .ipks. > Could you specify what you mean with 'build environment' and 'packages'? Build environment as in the Maemo and packages as in the existing dbus/ dir contents (bad wording, sorry). If you need to port all of Maemo to a new pkg management just to use ipkg, well... Granted, you need to recreate the packages for AI currently too so perhaps it's not an issue. > > Could I "apt-get source foo" from a Debian repo, compile the package > > for ARM with an utility like dpkg-buildpackage and stuff it to the > > device like I can now (from the command line, and if AI would support > > real debs from it too)? > > you can, ipkg-buildpkg will do the grunt work for you. Cool. > Systems like > OpenEmbedded will make live even easier by autogenerating control files. Cool too, though nothing special really. There's scripts around for generating the bulk of debian/ anyway. -- Kalle Vahlman, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Powered by http://movial.fi ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] ipkg vs dpkg
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Kalle Vahlman wrote: > 2005/11/29, Matthew Allum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > >>"the 770 is not an embedded system" - OK :) You understand my point >>though - we could argue all week on if my digitial watch for example >>was a small computer or an embedded system. > > > And that wouldn't resolve the real issues with the device which are > the RAM shortage and less-than-optimal graphics performance wrt screen > size. > > tar cfz - /var/lib/dpkg | wc -c > > gives somewhat less than one megabyte on the SDK, and I expect it to > be about the same or less on the device (if it indeed had the dpkg > stuff there, the product image does not currently). > > So we are talking about changing a rarely used utility to save less > than one percent of the flash space? With modifications to who knows > what amount of the packages included? I wouldn't call ipkg rarely used, Familiar, OpenZaurus, openwrt, SlugOS, pdaXrom, sharpROM and several other distros have been using it for years. > > Or is ipkg a drop-in replacement for dpkg, requiring no changes to > build environments or the packages themselves? a .ipkg should be compatible with a .deb (ar wrapped tarballs). See http://handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/Ipkg for details. Iirc ipkg should be able to install .debs and dpkg should be able to install .ipks. Could you specify what you mean with 'build environment' and 'packages'? > > Could I "apt-get source foo" from a Debian repo, compile the package > for ARM with an utility like dpkg-buildpackage and stuff it to the > device like I can now (from the command line, and if AI would support > real debs from it too)? you can, ipkg-buildpkg will do the grunt work for you. Systems like OpenEmbedded will make live even easier by autogenerating control files. > > -- > Kalle Vahlman, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Powered by http://movial.fi > ___ > maemo-developers mailing list > maemo-developers@maemo.org > https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFDjFIgMkyGM64RGpERAhQBAKCM+rt1TrVXArSCnstjky8ywvtMLwCfbB/O mIIkCyXGFscpeFR0Ne1cmb0= =bUgo -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] ipkg vs dpkg
Hi, On Fri, Nov 25, 2005 at 08:46:23PM -0500, ext Russell Nelson wrote: > Instead of tossing out opinions, let's look at some numbers. > I have Debian 2.2 on a server and Familiar 6.2 on a handheld. Since > we're talking about using either dpkg or ipkg on a jffs2 filesystem, > all space consumption is given as so: > packagessize bytes/package > ipkg total 378K > available939 317K 388 > installed14761K 415 > dpkg total10620K > available 15272 8660K 567 > installed301 1860K 6180 You are comparing different things, pkg managment tool and the repostitory used with its contained data. The interesting data here is the bytes per package, and that will increase with later Debian releases as they include tag information, but nothing prevents the repos provided by maemo to be stripped down, for example removing the long description and keeping the short one (as Familiar is doing). regards, guillem ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] ipkg vs dpkg
Hi, Matthew Allum wrote: > Somebody writes something new that kicks arse and addresses the issues > with dpkg and ipkg. that would be a solution, but open source software has a one big advantage: It can be improved to avoid rewriting something from the scratch. We should consider to make use of this :-) Greetings Florian -- The dream of yesterday Florian Boor is the hope of todayTel: 0271-771091-14 and the reality of tomorrow.Fax: 0271-771091-19 [Robert Hutchings Goddard, 1904][EMAIL PROTECTED] 6C 44 30 4C 43 20 6B 61 16 07 0F AA E6 97 70 A8 ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] ipkg vs dpkg
2005/11/29, Matthew Allum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > "the 770 is not an embedded system" - OK :) You understand my point > though - we could argue all week on if my digitial watch for example > was a small computer or an embedded system. And that wouldn't resolve the real issues with the device which are the RAM shortage and less-than-optimal graphics performance wrt screen size. tar cfz - /var/lib/dpkg | wc -c gives somewhat less than one megabyte on the SDK, and I expect it to be about the same or less on the device (if it indeed had the dpkg stuff there, the product image does not currently). So we are talking about changing a rarely used utility to save less than one percent of the flash space? With modifications to who knows what amount of the packages included? Or is ipkg a drop-in replacement for dpkg, requiring no changes to build environments or the packages themselves? Could I "apt-get source foo" from a Debian repo, compile the package for ARM with an utility like dpkg-buildpackage and stuff it to the device like I can now (from the command line, and if AI would support real debs from it too)? -- Kalle Vahlman, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Powered by http://movial.fi ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] ipkg vs dpkg
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Zeeshan Ali wrote: >>Repeat after me: "the 770 is not an embedded system". It is a small >>computer with neither a qwerty keyboard nor a big hard drive, nor a >>really fast processor. > > >You are kidding, right? Anything is an embedded system if it: > > 1. has a small memory and secondary storage > 2. has a slow processor > 3. is intended to serve some 'specific' purpose(s). Most of the computers I owned (from XT to the first ibm cyrix CPUs) have a slower cpu, less ram and less storage than the 770 and served "some 'specific' purpose(s)" are these embedded systems too? Are the new sharp pda models (400MHz Xscale, 64MB ram, 4GB microdrive, keyboard) embedded systems or not? The label 'embedded' is fuzzy and in boils down to 'no real keyboard' most of the times. >How do you define an 'embedded system'? I usually try not to :). The term 'embedded' gets misused almost as often as people calling NAND/NOR flash 'ROM'. regards, Koen > > -- > Regards, > > Zeeshan Ali > ___ > maemo-developers mailing list > maemo-developers@maemo.org > https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFDjD+NMkyGM64RGpERArESAJ98njJmeyfGfZ/iA1cYm6KW2ketjwCgktp7 pu1/0i3unSoP0n5pDJeSxGk= =/C5R -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] ipkg vs dpkg
Hi; On 11/29/05, Russell Nelson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Matthew Allum writes: > > Surely this isn't a fair comparison as the packages in Debian 2.2 > > arn't 'tuned' to embedded use ( i.e include docs, .la files etc etc ). > > You'd be better comparing udebs that make up D-I or something. > > I'm only talking about the overhead of the package manager, not the > contents of the packages themselves. > Okey, but surely some of the metadata you've measured is dependant on whats actually in the package ? > > Also I dont know how you make numbers out of ipkg's lack of any real > > maintainership, constant instability ( likely due to former ), wierd > > versioning scheme, memory issues and horrific 'UI' ( see ipkg -h ). > > Those are problems with ipkg, to be sure, but dpkg has its own > usability issues, and needs a front-end (apt-get) to have ipkg's > functionality. > Agreed. > There is no really great package manager for a small-storage system. Agreed. > How do we get there from here? > Somebody writes something new that kicks arse and addresses the issues with dpkg and ipkg. > > PS; note; Im not saying dpkg is ideal for embedded systems here, just > > that ipkg is not ideal either ( maybe it used to be but not so much > > nowadays ). > > Repeat after me: "the 770 is not an embedded system". It is a small > computer with neither a qwerty keyboard nor a big hard drive, nor a > really fast processor. > "the 770 is not an embedded system" - OK :) You understand my point though - we could argue all week on if my digitial watch for example was a small computer or an embedded system. -- Matthew ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] ipkg vs dpkg
> Repeat after me: "the 770 is not an embedded system". It is a small > computer with neither a qwerty keyboard nor a big hard drive, nor a > really fast processor. You are kidding, right? Anything is an embedded system if it: 1. has a small memory and secondary storage 2. has a slow processor 3. is intended to serve some 'specific' purpose(s). How do you define an 'embedded system'? -- Regards, Zeeshan Ali ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] ipkg vs dpkg
Matthew Allum writes: > Surely this isn't a fair comparison as the packages in Debian 2.2 > arn't 'tuned' to embedded use ( i.e include docs, .la files etc etc ). > You'd be better comparing udebs that make up D-I or something. I'm only talking about the overhead of the package manager, not the contents of the packages themselves. > Also I dont know how you make numbers out of ipkg's lack of any real > maintainership, constant instability ( likely due to former ), wierd > versioning scheme, memory issues and horrific 'UI' ( see ipkg -h ). Those are problems with ipkg, to be sure, but dpkg has its own usability issues, and needs a front-end (apt-get) to have ipkg's functionality. There is no really great package manager for a small-storage system. How do we get there from here? > PS; note; Im not saying dpkg is ideal for embedded systems here, just > that ipkg is not ideal either ( maybe it used to be but not so much > nowadays ). Repeat after me: "the 770 is not an embedded system". It is a small computer with neither a qwerty keyboard nor a big hard drive, nor a really fast processor. -- --my blog is at blog.russnelson.com | A computer without Python is Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | like a CPU without memory: 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 | it runs, but you can't do Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog | anything useful with it. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] ipkg vs dpkg
Lies, damn lies and statistics :) Surely this isn't a fair comparison as the packages in Debian 2.2 arn't 'tuned' to embedded use ( i.e include docs, .la files etc etc ). You'd be better comparing udebs that make up D-I or something. Also I dont know how you make numbers out of ipkg's lack of any real maintainership, constant instability ( likely due to former ), wierd versioning scheme, memory issues and horrific 'UI' ( see ipkg -h ). Regards -- Matthew PS; note; Im not saying dpkg is ideal for embedded systems here, just that ipkg is not ideal either ( maybe it used to be but not so much nowadays ). On 11/26/05, Russell Nelson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Instead of tossing out opinions, let's look at some numbers. > > I have Debian 2.2 on a server and Familiar 6.2 on a handheld. Since > we're talking about using either dpkg or ipkg on a jffs2 filesystem, > all space consumption is given as so: > > > packagessize bytes/package > ipkg total 378K > available939 317K 388 > installed14761K 415 > dpkg total10620K > available 15272 8660K 567 > installed301 1860K 6180 > > Here's how I got these numbers: > > ipkg total is: > tar cfz - /usr/lib/ipkg | wc -c > ipkg available is: > tar cfz - /usr/lib/ipkg/lists | wc -c > ipkg packages installed is: > ipkg status | grep ^Package: | wc -l > ipkg available packages is: > ipkg list | wc -l > > dpkg total is: > tar cfz - /var/lib/dpkg | wc -c > dpkg available is: > tar cfz - /var/lib/dpkg/available* | wc -c > dpkg packages installed is: > grep '^Status: install ok installed' /var/lib/dpkg/status | wc -l > dpkg available packages is: > grep '^Status:' /var/lib/dpkg/status | wc -l > > -- > --my blog is at blog.russnelson.com | > Crynwr sells support for free software | PGPok | There ought to be a law > 521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-323-1241 | against calling for more > Potsdam, NY 13676-3213 | Sheepdog | regulations! > ___ > maemo-developers mailing list > maemo-developers@maemo.org > https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers > ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
