Re: maemo wiki survey
I have started to summarize the conclusions after the survey and all the feedback received by several channels (from #maemo to people coming to my desk) :) http://maemo.org/community/wiki/midgardwikievaluation/ On the content side, there is http://maemo.org/community/wiki/wikireorg/ I'm subscribed to all changes and as soon as someone edits a page I'm adding it to the wiki main page: http://maemo.org/community/wiki/ . The Hildon team has cleaned their related content. Some outdated/irrelevant pages have been deleted, and now the Hildon wiki pages are at http://live.gnome.org/Hildon as part to their move to GOME upstream. There is still a way to go in the wiki front, although things are getting better. -- Quim Gil - http://maemo.org ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: maemo wiki survey
Quim Gil wrote: > Dear maemo contributors, can you please answer these questions? > > - What do you think about the current wiki tool at > http://maemo.org/community/wiki (leaving content aside) ? I'll answer this in the section good things/bad things below :) > > - Are you using it? Did you use the previous one? I used the previous one and invested some time to document the Java support (which was poor at that time - it still is, but getting better with the jalimo project). Then I was busy for quite a while, and came back to see the wiki system being changed. As the site search function seems not to include the wiki, I di not find any information about Java anymore, and thougth my page was deleted in the conversion. You can imagine how happy that made me :) After looking a while, I found that the page was stored under another name than I thought (JavaLanguage instead of just Java), and because the search didn't get that, the page was taken into the new wiki, I just couldn't find it. Having found it, I realized, that it was not correctly converted to the new syntax and looked quite bad. It seems that lists are limited to two levels, for example. All this took me ages, which had better been used updating the java information in the wiki, or trying how Jalimo works, and report that on the Wiki. > > - Are you thinking of using the community wiki? If the wiki will not get more usable, and other things I will mention in bad things, I will not use it a lot anymore. I will document the stuff I find out about Maemo in my own personal wiki. > > - Mention good things / bad things of the current wiki (and what would > you do). Good things: - garage login and Wiki login are the same (this is very minor, because I have so many logins and passwords, one more wouldn't matter. plus, this could have been done with any other wiki, too) Bad things: - it takes nearly a day(at least quite some time, mor ethan 5 minutes, and eventually I did stop checking and waited until next day) until login data is synchroized from garage to wiki. - the wiki has no search function anymore - the floating menu is not easy to use and intuitive - I muss a contents entry of the headlines in a page automatically generated for long pages with many headlines. - the Wiki Markup is limited(e.g. why is there a limit on the level of cascading lists?), and different from the ones most people already know (MediaWiki and MoinMoin). Why force people learn another markup, why try to reinvent the wheel by implementing even another wiki in midgard instead of using existing technologies? You see how it ends: you have some Finally: When I first heard of the midgard system and treid it, now nearly 10 years ago, I liked it a lot. It's a nice application development platform (only I could never really use it in production, as it involved having a rootserver and patch apache, which I had not - so in the meantime, I rather work with java stuff and avoid php in general). But I don't see the reasons why the decision had been made to move not only the Website CMS(which was goof to move), but also the whole Wiki system to Midgard. If you have a Wiki running, that is used by a lot of people, you cannot just switch it so easily. The internal CMS of a website, used by a handful of people is something different. The only upside it _could_ have had to integrate CMS and wiki in one midgard system, would be better data integrity and unification. But exactly this is not happening! Otherwise, the search function you see on each page in the system (also on wiki pages,) would actually find wiki pages, but this does not happen. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: maemo wiki survey
On 7/8/07, Henri Bergius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This means that next week (probably Mon/Tue), I will make some changes > to the wiki component Hopefully this will address some of the concerns, once installed: http://bergie.iki.fi/blog/making_midgard_wiki_easier.html -- Henri Bergius Motorcycle Adventures and Free Software http://bergie.iki.fi/ Skype: henribergius Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jaiku: http://bergie.jaiku.com/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: maemo wiki survey
Hi! We had some discussion with Ferenc about this thread last Friday and agreed that some of things should be addressed ASAP. This means that next week (probably Mon/Tue), I will make some changes to the wiki component, including at least capability of showing latest changes from all sub-wikis (namespaces). The wiki software already has a "latest changes" view, but this feature only shows the current wiki/namespace instead of all namespaces under it. When I do this change it will also happen in the "changes" RSS feed. I will also look at adding preview capability to the regular form-based editor. Then to your comments: On 7/5/07, Kees Jongenburger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > -The cms documentation is very poor(formating rules etc) > --how to create a toc etc > https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1590 The formatting is standard Markdown Extra with couple of wiki-specific tags added. But you're right, we should collect both the Markdown Extra documentation and our wiki docs in the same place, and preferably ship that with the wiki itself. > -When not editing in wysiwyg mode not preview button is visible > https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1408 The reason here is twofold: obviously, I've been mostly too lazy to add preview functionality, but also so many Midgard setups run in staging/live model where saving and previewing are essentially the same thing (and only content approval publishes the changes) that this hasn't been a critical missing feature. > -when committing everybody can see that I am watching page changes That happens also with MoinMoin, which is why I added this feature. I could easily hide the notices, though. > -No maemo wiki specific search > https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1381 There would be wiki-specific search if we used Midgard's own indexer. However, I suspect it should be possible to make searches limited to a specific URL space using Maemo's Google appliance. > I would like a world view / site map arranged on topic of booth wiki > and non wiki content > so that if I find that page I know I don't have to look in other parts > of the website This is easy to implement: just create a new folder with type "sitemap". Ferenc/Quim, what do you think? > I guess that it is the main wiki page that needs cleanup Agreed, now it is quite horrible. I think for example Midgard's own wiki is much nicer with its manually maintained front page: http://www.midgard-project.org/documentation/ As to other things people here have requested like for example anonymous editing, those are mostly questions of configuration and the decisions about them must be made by the Nokia folks. Personally I'd advice against anonymous editing however, as it creates quite big need to monitor and police the changes against abuse. Registration/login is not a big deal, and the resources that would be needed for keeping the wiki clean are most likely best used elsewhere. /Henri -- Henri Bergius Motorcycle Adventures and Free Software http://bergie.iki.fi/ Skype: henribergius Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jaiku: http://bergie.jaiku.com/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: maemo wiki survey
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Quim Gil wrote: > Dear maemo contributors, can you please answer these questions? > > - What do you think about the current wiki tool at > http://maemo.org/community/wiki (leaving content aside) ? It feels like the new wiki/cms engine is missing some key things. It's not like it is a vim/emacs war, but things are missing that make this not a wiki in the full since of the Hawaiian word. > > - Are you using it? Did you use the previous one? I have only had time to make two small changes to the new system. I make extensive page edits to the original MoinMoin wiki. I was attempting to categorize the original wiki's content before job and family kept me busy for the last seven to eight months. > > - Are you thinking of using the community wiki? > In my case, I can say that this is a more complex question. I wanted to contribute to a centralized wiki for the 770. Even though this popular wiki existed and it uses my favorite wiki engine http://www.internettablettalk.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page , I chose the Maemo wiki because I didn't want to dilute the effort that was already in place. It feels like the Maemo wiki/cms engine change was a step back. It is hard to build up a community of content editors for a project. Content system changes for a project can be a set back. My contributions to the Maemo wiki have diminised ( and all other wikis that I contribute too) because of work and family constraints. The larger question for me is, "Do I still buy a new 800?" Without new hardware, then there may be less reason for me to contribute. It is difficult to find my older contributions and edit them for my existing 770 platform. In addition, I am not interested in the Apple iPhone, but the openmoko http://www.openmoko.org/ makes the 800 a more difficult choice because the WAF, Wife approval Factor, would not be favorable for two $350+ US purchases. What makes the neo1973 give the 800 a run for the money is that the August Linux Journal says that Sun will put the JavaFX on the platform. I confirmed that here http://blogs.sun.com/brewin/entry/fic_and_openmoko_thank_you and here http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/when_not_where . Don't worry I am a Sun customer. The Gnome desktop of Solaris 10 is what I was expecting for Solaris 9. Let's see what the hype brings because Sun has not been very focused for the last several years in my experience. Chuckle, they might even run an OpenSolaris kernel on the neo1973. However, with what I am seeing, it certainly is a very interesting place that Nokia finds themselves in right now. For a number of reasons provided through out this email, my Maemo content production has been greatly frozen. Moreover, it appears in my view of the world that, Nokia may have to think about ways that they competitively keep Open Source developers interested in the Maemo platform. > - Mention good things / bad things of the current wiki (and what would > you do). > Pluses It appears to be integrated with the Maemo garage account login. The pages from the MoinMoin wiki were converted. I don't have to use docbook to create the content. (I am not trying to start a flame war here, but docbook just didn't work for me. The whole edit, svn/cvs checkin, compile, publish thing was too cumbersome. In my experience, wikis or cms systems allow for flexible changes and redirection of a page in a new direction. Note this is precisely what drives people daffy about wikis. It appears to me that some people that don't like wikis miss the pre-planning and editorial control of the page or site.) The edit tags are not too different from MoinMoin but the tags do present a stumbling block. MoinMoin, MediaWiki, Twiki, appear to be the big three user content systems for many Open Source projects. The content engine change does move in another direction. Minuses: It was not obvious that a Maemo garage account login was required right away. The converted MoinMoin wiki pages lost a great deal of their formatting. Until I poked around in the floating tool's folder> orphaned pages, I could not find all the MoinMoin content. For example, I tried to make https://maemo.org/community/wiki/flasher_tool_usage.html look like http://maemo.org/community/community-projects/getting-started . All the original formatting has been lost. I have really been busy with family life. How do I go about completing the getting-started page since it bugs me that I left the page high and dry without the final revision polish that I was struggling to say? In the new engine, I tried to perform a preview of a page before saving my changes, the floating tool's page> view menu lost my changes. My expectations are that I would have seen a preview and then saw my spelling error. So it cost me an edit page, lose page edit, edit page, save page, view resulting saved page, edit page again for spelling error that I created in the replacement edit, before finally saving
Re: maemo wiki survey
Quim Gil wrote: > Dear maemo contributors, can you please answer these questions? > > - What do you think about the current wiki tool at > http://maemo.org/community/wiki (leaving content aside) ? http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//maemo-users/2007-June/005538.html > > - Are you using it? Did you use the previous one? I am using it far less then previous one both for reading and editing. > - Mention good things / bad things of the current wiki (and what would > you do). I understand the need for better CMS system for whole site but still feature-wise the new wiki is IMO big step back from old one in all aspects. Please add recent changes for whole wiki and also wiki search. Both features are invaluable for examining wiki content. Without those two features I am completely lost. Now the only way how to examine the wiki is the worst one - traversing links from front page. Yuck! This is not ideal for wiki at all due to its chaotic nature and notoriously bad structure. Please add anonymous editing. There was discussion about this in the list, I think at that time there was general consensus that anonymous editing is quite important and then you took this feature away. http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/maemo/developers/11259#11259 Please make wiki easier to edit (less steps, less fancy stuff). The old way with preview and textbox on same page was easy, fast and was even usable from the device itself. Frantisek ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: maemo wiki survey
On Thu, 2007-07-05 at 05:51 -0300, ext MoRpHeUz wrote: > What do you mean with "community wiki" ? The question means if you have plans to user http://maemo.org/community/wiki/ in the future. Sorry if it was not clear. Another term that perhaps was not clear enough is "use". When we ask if you are/were using the wiki we mean not only browsing pages but creating/editing content. Using the own tools of the wiki. This wiki is basically for you. We look for your feedback in order to plan better the next steps improving it. -- Quim Gil - http://maemo.org ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: maemo wiki survey
Hi An all recent changes page will be usefull. Like this : http://www.nslu2-linux.org/wiki/Site/AllRecentChanges and a RSS feed of all recent changes. David. Quim Gil wrote: > Dear maemo contributors, can you please answer these questions? > > - What do you think about the current wiki tool at > http://maemo.org/community/wiki (leaving content aside) ? > > - Are you using it? Did you use the previous one? > > - Are you thinking of using the community wiki? > > - Mention good things / bad things of the current wiki (and what would > you do). > > Thank you. > > -- http://david.hautbois.free.fr http://slugplayer.free.fr ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: maemo wiki survey
On 7/5/07, Quim Gil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear maemo contributors, can you please answer these questions? > > - What do you think about the current wiki tool at > http://maemo.org/community/wiki (leaving content aside) ? -The cms documentation is very poor(formating rules etc) --how to create a toc etc https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1590 -When not editing in wysiwyg mode not preview button is visible https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1408 -when committing everybody can see that I am watching page changes -No maemo wiki specific search https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1381 > - Are you using it? Did you use the previous one? yes I am using the current one it contains a few perls yes, the old one with the application pages was a "must" > > - Are you thinking of using the community wiki? > > - Mention good things / bad things of the current wiki (and what would > you do). I would like a world view / site map arranged on topic of booth wiki and non wiki content so that if I find that page I know I don't have to look in other parts of the website -kernel --Official docs --Wiki --Download I guess that it is the main wiki page that needs cleanup greetings ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: maemo wiki survey
> - What do you think about the current wiki tool at > http://maemo.org/community/wiki (leaving content aside) ? Wiki is always good =) > - Are you using it? Did you use the previous one? For sure. > - Are you thinking of using the community wiki? What do you mean with "community wiki" ? > - Mention good things / bad things of the current wiki (and what would > you do). The only bad stuff there are the old content...otherwise it's a great start for beginners! > Thank you. > > -- > Quim Gil - http://maemo.org > > ___ > maemo-developers mailing list > maemo-developers@maemo.org > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers > -- --- Blog: http://labs.morpheuz.eng.br/blog/ PGP: 0xDBEEAAC3 @ wwwkeys.pgp.net ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: maemo wiki survey
Hello Quim, i use the wiki ( the last to ). In my opinion a wiki is a good place to start, walk around and get a feeling whats going on. For a new owner (just bought the device) the best place to start. It does not matter what i am looking for. From the wiki i can go to every section of the side without knowledge about the structure or the to which section belongs what i am looking for. If i am looking for additional software i could go to download a play with search terms or categories or i use the wiki to get a list of all stuff which is available. The wiki is like a table of content een a good place to start. br Mathias 2007/7/5, Quim Gil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Dear maemo contributors, can you please answer these questions? - What do you think about the current wiki tool at http://maemo.org/community/wiki (leaving content aside) ? - Are you using it? Did you use the previous one? - Are you thinking of using the community wiki? - Mention good things / bad things of the current wiki (and what would you do). Thank you. -- Quim Gil - http://maemo.org ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
maemo wiki survey
Dear maemo contributors, can you please answer these questions? - What do you think about the current wiki tool at http://maemo.org/community/wiki (leaving content aside) ? - Are you using it? Did you use the previous one? - Are you thinking of using the community wiki? - Mention good things / bad things of the current wiki (and what would you do). Thank you. -- Quim Gil - http://maemo.org ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
