Updating software issues (was RE: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[Quim Gil]

Hi there, for those of you concerned about this bugfix release and our plans to 
improve the process of updating software in the tablets:

http://flors.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/sdhc-bugfix-release-updating-software-in-the-nokia-tablets/

-- 
Quim Gil - http://maemo.org

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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Thomas Leavitt]

What I'm not understanding here is that the tablet is a debian Linux 
system, in it's essence... what's the issue with just making the updated 
packages available, for the power users and tweakers willing to go 
through the work of a manual update? It doesn't do anything to prevent 
the folks whose time to restore is under 30 minutes from flashing the 
thing, and it isn't clear to me what, exactly, prevents this from being 
possible.

Thomas

Gary Baribault wrote:
> Hey Mike,
>
>   I think most people who are minimalists would not get involved in a
> Linux device, they would have gone for the IPhone. Sure there will be
> some of them who purchase a 400$+ device for minimal functionality, but,
> and I may be mistaken, the red wine is getting to me here, most of us
> have purchased this N800 for the power features, I have a Debian based
> device with BT and WiFi and 2 SD slots!!! YEAH
>
> As I said, the wine could be getting to me here in Montreal, but THAT'S
> why I bought this toy, and that translates to 90 minutes plus if I have
> to reconfigure it at each flash!!  And I repeat, Nokia, I'm not
> bitching, thatks for the great toy, it's already making my life much
> better, but please re-arange your priorities to give us this feature
> before others.
>
>
> Gary Baribault
> Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> GPG Key: 0x4346F013
> GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
>
>
>
> Mike Klein wrote:
>   
>> These #s mean nothing without taking into account target user as you
>> mention.
>>
>> Do Nothing: This person buys device, installs a few apps and nothing
>> else. (TARGET AUDIENCE)
>> Minimal: These users install bunches of apps, certificates, pgp keys
>> (SECONDARY)
>> Maxmimum: Power Users/Devt who fully tweak device, custom drivers, conf
>> edits, perhaps beyond restore-ability
>>
>> So for primary audience...what is prob' 30min. reinstall time isn't too bad.
>>
>>
>> mike
>>
>> Gary Baribault wrote:
>> 
>>> Yep, that's exactly what I mean, some people have put down 430$ (in
>>> Canada) for a nice toy, and they can flash and restore in 20 minutes,
>>> but most people (I think, and I may be wrong) have put down 430$ for a
>>> fully customised device .. I'm not looking to be skewing information, if
>>> i'm wrong, then I'm wrong, no prob, then Nokia is right!
>>>
>>>
>>> Gary Baribault
>>> Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> GPG Key: 0x4346F013
>>> GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>   
>>>   
> I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in 20
> minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take over 90
> minutes.
>   
>   
   If you limit your curiosity to those over 90 minutes, you'll 
 purposefully skew the results, which really isn't appropriate. 

   I'm a 20 minute flash and restore kind of guy, back in August when I 
 got the unit back from warranty service due to it's brick like 
 behavior.  Most of that time was spent watching TV while the unit and 
 laptop did their work.

   However, it's possible that it's easy and short for me because I've 
 kept things relatively simple on my N800 with a couple games, Gizmo 
 Project, Quiver photo viewer and Claws mail being just about the only 
 additions.  I've configured about 20 RSS feeds and 4 weather stations.   
 I've tested a fair amount of other stuff from Maemo, but then when I 
 find it of limited value or unfunctional, I remove it to keep the 
 clutter down.   It seems to speed boot up keeping things simple.  I 
 gather it may also help the restore process...

I guess the fine print is I've only recently started messing around 
 getting Claws Mail up to full speed with filters and stuff, so it might 
 be possible that I might have to spend some time fussing with restoring 
 some Claws settings there from a restore, but then again, perhaps not.  
 ___
 maemo-users mailing list
 maemo-users@maemo.org
 https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users


 
 
>>> ___
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>>>   
>>>   
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>   

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RE: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Dr. Nicholas Shaw]

Now that's funny... :-)

Nick.
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Brad Midgley
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 8:04 PM
To: Gary Baribault
Cc: maemo-users@maemo.org
Subject: Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

guys

It takes longer to read this thread than it does to reinstall my apps.
At least it's improving... I used to have to restore sources.list
too...

brad
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Re: powerlaunch - power key shortcuts

[Austin Che]

> I'll play with powerlaunch.conf in a bit, but asking just for the sake
> of more discussion in the list: would it work with overlapping
> profiles? ie. one power key press toggles softpoweroff, but one
> powerkeypress immediately followed by (ie. in 1500 msecs) another
> action does something else?

I've added simple timer support to powerlaunch and uploaded a new
version at https://garage.maemo.org/projects/powerlaunch/
It now has a decent imitation of the touchscreen/keypad lock
mode where the power/select key combination have to be followed
within short time of each other.

Overlapping profiles, as you put it, should now also be
possible. In the default example config, if you press
power,right,select, you'll be put into a mode where pushing the up
button does something different depending on whether it's pushed
in < 1 second, between 1 and 2 seconds, or > 2 seconds.
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Michael Wiktowy]

On 10/2/07, Jac Kersing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Michael Wiktowy wrote:
>
> > Reality is that they are much closer to the resource constrains of a
> > cell phone and I don't know of a single cell phone that doesn't just
> > wipe everything that isn't on the SIM or external memory card on a
> > firmware update ...
>
> Sorry, not true. All (recent) S60 devices are firmware upgradable, backup
> before, flash new firmware, restore and all applications are available.
> (Somehow they forget to save/restore the bluetooth pairing information,
> but everything works just fine)

I can assure you that it is true that I didn't know of a single cell
phone of this type before ;]
Now I do ... can you install third-party apps on it and it restores
all those too or does it just restore the built-in apps like the
tablets do currently?

> > All that being said, I am not sure how many apps you have but reloading
> > my IT after a firmware update has never taken me 2-4 hours.
>
> Having to reinstall is a pain. Enabling blue pill mode for some packages.
> Resetting the root password after install of sshd. It is not cool to have
> to do every OS upgrade.

Don't get me wrong. I do agree that this needs to be fixed. In fact, I
complained to Nokia pretty soon after the very first firmware update
of my 770 after buying it right after coming out nearly two years ago
now.

My points were that:
1) Nokia has heard these complaints and have committed to acting on
them. As far as I know, they have not guaranteed this will come with
Chinook. It is a much harder problem than it seems involving a lot of
infructructure and the cooperation of third party repos.
2) Nokia allowing massive customizability and then yelling at them for
not accomodating people who tweak them to the max is not productive.
The easy avenue for Nokia is to just not allow third party apps like
Apple does with the iPhone. The comparison with the iPhone was just on
the basis of similar hardware (CPU speed, memory, etc.) not a
comparison of functionality. The apps that come with the firmware
reinstall quite nicely with next to zero time for reconfiguration.
However, I think that everyone would agree that this option would
suck.
3) I suggested ways that would make these 2 hour+
reinstallations/reconfigurations shorter next time. I can see
situations where people digging into config files and making custom
tweaks and setting up the tablet to have the same private key for sshd
it had the last time would take them a long time to redo. However, if
people are talented enough to dig around in and edit the config using
the command line, they are surely talented enough to add all those
config tweaks into a script that they can save and run in a few seonds
after reinstalling exactly two apps ... xterm and becomeroot. But
reinstalling a few more apps? If you keep the the .install and .deb
files around it doesn't take long. What app for the tablet takes so
long to reconfigure once it is installed? If it takes so long to get
set up right or work around problems, it is probably a problem with
the app that needs to be reported to the creator of it. Most Linux
apps pick good defaults right out of the box.

I am sometimes frustrated at the pace of development too but helping
with development is probably more effective than beating up Nokia.
Even non-coders can help by filing bug reports and offering technical
support to new users.

/Mike
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[James Sparenberg]

On Tuesday 02 October 2007 19:03:56 Brad Midgley wrote:
> guys
>
> It takes longer to read this thread than it does to reinstall my apps.
> At least it's improving... I used to have to restore sources.list
> too...
>
> brad

Ya don't have to read every post every time ya know *cheesy grin* 

James
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Brad Midgley]

guys

It takes longer to read this thread than it does to reinstall my apps.
At least it's improving... I used to have to restore sources.list
too...

brad
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[James Sparenberg]

On Tuesday 02 October 2007 18:45:59 Fred C wrote:
> I don't consider my n800 a toy.  I've been in and out of computers and
> prrogramming since 1968.  The N800 is a new device of extremely
> limited power, but very nice utility, if used within reasonable
> limits.
>
> Those expecting more need a reality check if they expect to push the
> envelope of a small handheld device without putting in a
> significant amount of effort AND time negotiating the back and
> forth world of fringe.
>
> Been there, done that over twenty years ago, and still doing it, only I
> carefully pick my battles. The N800 ain't one of those battles -- for
> me.  I use it to be able to reply to this email while hanging out in my
> kitchen while my dinner is nuked, amongst it's other uses.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 21:04:42 -0400
>
> Gary Baribault <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Yep, that's exactly what I mean, some people have put down 430$ (in
> > Canada) for a nice toy, and they can flash and restore in 20 minutes,
> > but most people (I think, and I may be wrong) have put down 430$ for a
> > fully customised device .. I'm not looking to be skewing information,
> > if i'm wrong, then I'm wrong, no prob, then Nokia is right!
> >
> >
> > Gary Baribault
> > Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > GPG Key: 0x4346F013
> > GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > >> I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in
> > >> 20 minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take
> > >> over 90 minutes.
> > >
> > >   If you limit your curiosity to those over 90 minutes, you'll
> > > purposefully skew the results, which really isn't appropriate.
> > >
> > >   I'm a 20 minute flash and restore kind of guy, back in August
> > > when I got the unit back from warranty service due to it's brick
> > > like behavior.  Most of that time was spent watching TV while the
> > > unit and laptop did their work.
> > >
> > >   However, it's possible that it's easy and short for me because
> > > I've kept things relatively simple on my N800 with a couple games,
> > > Gizmo Project, Quiver photo viewer and Claws mail being just about
> > > the only additions.  I've configured about 20 RSS feeds and 4
> > > weather stations. I've tested a fair amount of other stuff from
> > > Maemo, but then when I find it of limited value or unfunctional, I
> > > remove it to keep the clutter down.   It seems to speed boot up
> > > keeping things simple.  I gather it may also help the restore
> > > process...
> > >
> > >I guess the fine print is I've only recently started messing
> > > around getting Claws Mail up to full speed with filters and stuff,
> > > so it might be possible that I might have to spend some time
> > > fussing with restoring some Claws settings there from a restore,
> > > but then again, perhaps not.

The only thing I "question" (and I use that term loosly) is calling it 
underpowered.  I tend to view it as if I am saying. "What could I do on a 
desktop in 1999?"  This little handheld is as powerful as my 300Mhz K-6 was 
with more storage room (I only had a 6G drive on that box.) as such no.  I 
don't expect 3D graphics or high end gaming.  But if I could do it on that 
box back then, I can surely do it here and now.  Baring of course instruction 
set differences.

When looked at in that light.  It's really awsome how much power is in my 
hand.  

James

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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Mike Klein]

Regardless of my most likely incorrect categorization...it exists and
affects #s reported that if people don't include category they fall
into...then #s mean nothing.

Nokia knows it is a problem and plans to address it anyways...so kudos
to them.

Since N800 isn't a phone I can't see comparison to iPhone being
relevant. For a Linux device...the N800 is quite user friendly and I
believe "Joe Consumer" would have a good time with it...short of
codec/cpu limitations and certain videos not playing well.

PepperPad3 is another example of a Linux device you could (kind of) give
to Mom. I handed mine off to mother recently and she had no problem
accessing her web-mail, playing games and watching videos/etc. I'd
installed.

Minimal functionality? As much as I harp on my other devices...I don't
critique the N800 for having no func out of box. My only gripes are lack
of eyelet/ring for neck lanyard, no phone/3g/keybd and cpu speed/codecs.
I can't scream about lack of a2dp when linux in general suffers in this
area. Yeah I want higher res and hdmi out...but we must be patient...


mike

Gary Baribault wrote:
> Hey Mike,
>
>   I think most people who are minimalists would not get involved in a
> Linux device, they would have gone for the IPhone. Sure there will be
> some of them who purchase a 400$+ device for minimal functionality, but,
> and I may be mistaken, the red wine is getting to me here, most of us
> have purchased this N800 for the power features, I have a Debian based
> device with BT and WiFi and 2 SD slots!!! YEAH
>
> As I said, the wine could be getting to me here in Montreal, but THAT'S
> why I bought this toy, and that translates to 90 minutes plus if I have
> to reconfigure it at each flash!!  And I repeat, Nokia, I'm not
> bitching, thatks for the great toy, it's already making my life much
> better, but please re-arange your priorities to give us this feature
> before others.
>
>
> Gary Baribault
> Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> GPG Key: 0x4346F013
> GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
>
>
>
> Mike Klein wrote:
>   
>> These #s mean nothing without taking into account target user as you
>> mention.
>>
>> Do Nothing: This person buys device, installs a few apps and nothing
>> else. (TARGET AUDIENCE)
>> Minimal: These users install bunches of apps, certificates, pgp keys
>> (SECONDARY)
>> Maxmimum: Power Users/Devt who fully tweak device, custom drivers, conf
>> edits, perhaps beyond restore-ability
>>
>> So for primary audience...what is prob' 30min. reinstall time isn't too bad.
>>
>>
>> mike
>>
>> Gary Baribault wrote:
>> 
>>> Yep, that's exactly what I mean, some people have put down 430$ (in
>>> Canada) for a nice toy, and they can flash and restore in 20 minutes,
>>> but most people (I think, and I may be wrong) have put down 430$ for a
>>> fully customised device .. I'm not looking to be skewing information, if
>>> i'm wrong, then I'm wrong, no prob, then Nokia is right!
>>>
>>>
>>> Gary Baribault
>>> Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> GPG Key: 0x4346F013
>>> GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>   
>>>   
> I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in 20
> minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take over 90
> minutes.
>   
>   
   If you limit your curiosity to those over 90 minutes, you'll 
 purposefully skew the results, which really isn't appropriate. 

   I'm a 20 minute flash and restore kind of guy, back in August when I 
 got the unit back from warranty service due to it's brick like 
 behavior.  Most of that time was spent watching TV while the unit and 
 laptop did their work.

   However, it's possible that it's easy and short for me because I've 
 kept things relatively simple on my N800 with a couple games, Gizmo 
 Project, Quiver photo viewer and Claws mail being just about the only 
 additions.  I've configured about 20 RSS feeds and 4 weather stations.   
 I've tested a fair amount of other stuff from Maemo, but then when I 
 find it of limited value or unfunctional, I remove it to keep the 
 clutter down.   It seems to speed boot up keeping things simple.  I 
 gather it may also help the restore process...

I guess the fine print is I've only recently started messing around 
 getting Claws Mail up to full speed with filters and stuff, so it might 
 be possible that I might have to spend some time fussing with restoring 
 some Claws settings there from a restore, but then again, perhaps not.  
 ___
 maemo-users mailing list
 maemo-users@maemo.org
 https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users


 
 
>>> ___
>>> maemo-users mailing list
>>> maemo-users@maemo.org
>>> https://lis

Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Fred C]

I don't consider my n800 a toy.  I've been in and out of computers and
prrogramming since 1968.  The N800 is a new device of extremely
limited power, but very nice utility, if used within reasonable
limits.  

Those expecting more need a reality check if they expect to push the
envelope of a small handheld device without putting in a
significant amount of effort AND time negotiating the back and
forth world of fringe. 

Been there, done that over twenty years ago, and still doing it, only I
carefully pick my battles. The N800 ain't one of those battles -- for
me.  I use it to be able to reply to this email while hanging out in my
kitchen while my dinner is nuked, amongst it's other uses.



On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 21:04:42 -0400
Gary Baribault <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Yep, that's exactly what I mean, some people have put down 430$ (in
> Canada) for a nice toy, and they can flash and restore in 20 minutes,
> but most people (I think, and I may be wrong) have put down 430$ for a
> fully customised device .. I'm not looking to be skewing information,
> if i'm wrong, then I'm wrong, no prob, then Nokia is right!
> 
> 
> Gary Baribault
> Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> GPG Key: 0x4346F013
> GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
> 
> 
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >> I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in
> >> 20 minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take
> >> over 90 minutes.
> >   If you limit your curiosity to those over 90 minutes, you'll 
> > purposefully skew the results, which really isn't appropriate. 
> > 
> >   I'm a 20 minute flash and restore kind of guy, back in August
> > when I got the unit back from warranty service due to it's brick
> > like behavior.  Most of that time was spent watching TV while the
> > unit and laptop did their work.
> > 
> >   However, it's possible that it's easy and short for me because
> > I've kept things relatively simple on my N800 with a couple games,
> > Gizmo Project, Quiver photo viewer and Claws mail being just about
> > the only additions.  I've configured about 20 RSS feeds and 4
> > weather stations. I've tested a fair amount of other stuff from
> > Maemo, but then when I find it of limited value or unfunctional, I
> > remove it to keep the clutter down.   It seems to speed boot up
> > keeping things simple.  I gather it may also help the restore
> > process...
> > 
> >I guess the fine print is I've only recently started messing
> > around getting Claws Mail up to full speed with filters and stuff,
> > so it might be possible that I might have to spend some time
> > fussing with restoring some Claws settings there from a restore,
> > but then again, perhaps not.
> > ___ maemo-users mailing
> > list maemo-users@maemo.org
> > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
> > 
> > 
> 
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Jonathan Greene]

Stay tuned Brian ...
http://tabletblog.com/2007/09/third-internet-tablet-slider-confirmed.html

On 10/2/07, Brian Litzinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 12:24:48PM -0700, Mike Klein wrote:
> > This is how I read the announcement...fixes for just 2 bugs. However it
> > Btw (not to compare rotten apples to florida oranges) but WM
> > phones/devices and many others work the same way...reflash and
> reinstall.
>
> I own an N800 and a Sprint Mogul (HTC 6800).  I sure wish the n800 had a
> little keyboard.
>
> ActiveSync solves most of the reflash problem on the WM devices.
>
> At least for apps that use it.
>
> --
> Brian Litzinger
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>



-- 
Jonathan Greene
+1.914.750.8740
AIM / iChat - atmasphere
gtalk / jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype / Gizmo - JonathanGreene
blogs - http://www.atmasphere.net/wp  / http://www.maemoapps.com
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Gary Baribault]

Hey Mike,

I think most people who are minimalists would not get involved in a
Linux device, they would have gone for the IPhone. Sure there will be
some of them who purchase a 400$+ device for minimal functionality, but,
and I may be mistaken, the red wine is getting to me here, most of us
have purchased this N800 for the power features, I have a Debian based
device with BT and WiFi and 2 SD slots!!! YEAH

As I said, the wine could be getting to me here in Montreal, but THAT'S
why I bought this toy, and that translates to 90 minutes plus if I have
to reconfigure it at each flash!!  And I repeat, Nokia, I'm not
bitching, thatks for the great toy, it's already making my life much
better, but please re-arange your priorities to give us this feature
before others.


Gary Baribault
Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPG Key: 0x4346F013
GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013



Mike Klein wrote:
> These #s mean nothing without taking into account target user as you
> mention.
> 
> Do Nothing: This person buys device, installs a few apps and nothing
> else. (TARGET AUDIENCE)
> Minimal: These users install bunches of apps, certificates, pgp keys
> (SECONDARY)
> Maxmimum: Power Users/Devt who fully tweak device, custom drivers, conf
> edits, perhaps beyond restore-ability
> 
> So for primary audience...what is prob' 30min. reinstall time isn't too bad.
> 
> 
> mike
> 
> Gary Baribault wrote:
>> Yep, that's exactly what I mean, some people have put down 430$ (in
>> Canada) for a nice toy, and they can flash and restore in 20 minutes,
>> but most people (I think, and I may be wrong) have put down 430$ for a
>> fully customised device .. I'm not looking to be skewing information, if
>> i'm wrong, then I'm wrong, no prob, then Nokia is right!
>>
>>
>> Gary Baribault
>> Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> GPG Key: 0x4346F013
>> GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
>>
>>
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>   
 I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in 20
 minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take over 90
 minutes.
   
>>>   If you limit your curiosity to those over 90 minutes, you'll 
>>> purposefully skew the results, which really isn't appropriate. 
>>>
>>>   I'm a 20 minute flash and restore kind of guy, back in August when I 
>>> got the unit back from warranty service due to it's brick like 
>>> behavior.  Most of that time was spent watching TV while the unit and 
>>> laptop did their work.
>>>
>>>   However, it's possible that it's easy and short for me because I've 
>>> kept things relatively simple on my N800 with a couple games, Gizmo 
>>> Project, Quiver photo viewer and Claws mail being just about the only 
>>> additions.  I've configured about 20 RSS feeds and 4 weather stations.   
>>> I've tested a fair amount of other stuff from Maemo, but then when I 
>>> find it of limited value or unfunctional, I remove it to keep the 
>>> clutter down.   It seems to speed boot up keeping things simple.  I 
>>> gather it may also help the restore process...
>>>
>>>I guess the fine print is I've only recently started messing around 
>>> getting Claws Mail up to full speed with filters and stuff, so it might 
>>> be possible that I might have to spend some time fussing with restoring 
>>> some Claws settings there from a restore, but then again, perhaps not.  
>>> ___
>>> maemo-users mailing list
>>> maemo-users@maemo.org
>>> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>> ___
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RE: Auto Backup

[Dr. Nicholas Shaw]

Yes.  Try rdiff-backup.  It will take some configuring but a straight
forward script can be found at
http://www.nongnu.org/rdiff-backup/examples.html

Nick.
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 5:31 PM
To: maemo-users@maemo.org
Subject: Auto Backup

Is there an automated scheduled back up utility somewhere on Maemo that 
would allow one to automatically back up the unit in the middle of the 
night when it's idling along/charging? 

Seems like a no brainer utility that ought to be available. 

Always, Fred C
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Mike Klein]

These #s mean nothing without taking into account target user as you
mention.

Do Nothing: This person buys device, installs a few apps and nothing
else. (TARGET AUDIENCE)
Minimal: These users install bunches of apps, certificates, pgp keys
(SECONDARY)
Maxmimum: Power Users/Devt who fully tweak device, custom drivers, conf
edits, perhaps beyond restore-ability

So for primary audience...what is prob' 30min. reinstall time isn't too bad.


mike

Gary Baribault wrote:
> Yep, that's exactly what I mean, some people have put down 430$ (in
> Canada) for a nice toy, and they can flash and restore in 20 minutes,
> but most people (I think, and I may be wrong) have put down 430$ for a
> fully customised device .. I'm not looking to be skewing information, if
> i'm wrong, then I'm wrong, no prob, then Nokia is right!
>
>
> Gary Baribault
> Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> GPG Key: 0x4346F013
> GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
>
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>   
>>> I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in 20
>>> minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take over 90
>>> minutes.
>>>   
>>   If you limit your curiosity to those over 90 minutes, you'll 
>> purposefully skew the results, which really isn't appropriate. 
>>
>>   I'm a 20 minute flash and restore kind of guy, back in August when I 
>> got the unit back from warranty service due to it's brick like 
>> behavior.  Most of that time was spent watching TV while the unit and 
>> laptop did their work.
>>
>>   However, it's possible that it's easy and short for me because I've 
>> kept things relatively simple on my N800 with a couple games, Gizmo 
>> Project, Quiver photo viewer and Claws mail being just about the only 
>> additions.  I've configured about 20 RSS feeds and 4 weather stations.   
>> I've tested a fair amount of other stuff from Maemo, but then when I 
>> find it of limited value or unfunctional, I remove it to keep the 
>> clutter down.   It seems to speed boot up keeping things simple.  I 
>> gather it may also help the restore process...
>>
>>I guess the fine print is I've only recently started messing around 
>> getting Claws Mail up to full speed with filters and stuff, so it might 
>> be possible that I might have to spend some time fussing with restoring 
>> some Claws settings there from a restore, but then again, perhaps not.  
>> ___
>> maemo-users mailing list
>> maemo-users@maemo.org
>> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>>
>>
>> 
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Gary Baribault]

Yep, that's exactly what I mean, some people have put down 430$ (in
Canada) for a nice toy, and they can flash and restore in 20 minutes,
but most people (I think, and I may be wrong) have put down 430$ for a
fully customised device .. I'm not looking to be skewing information, if
i'm wrong, then I'm wrong, no prob, then Nokia is right!


Gary Baribault
Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPG Key: 0x4346F013
GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in 20
>> minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take over 90
>> minutes.
>   If you limit your curiosity to those over 90 minutes, you'll 
> purposefully skew the results, which really isn't appropriate. 
> 
>   I'm a 20 minute flash and restore kind of guy, back in August when I 
> got the unit back from warranty service due to it's brick like 
> behavior.  Most of that time was spent watching TV while the unit and 
> laptop did their work.
> 
>   However, it's possible that it's easy and short for me because I've 
> kept things relatively simple on my N800 with a couple games, Gizmo 
> Project, Quiver photo viewer and Claws mail being just about the only 
> additions.  I've configured about 20 RSS feeds and 4 weather stations.   
> I've tested a fair amount of other stuff from Maemo, but then when I 
> find it of limited value or unfunctional, I remove it to keep the 
> clutter down.   It seems to speed boot up keeping things simple.  I 
> gather it may also help the restore process...
> 
>I guess the fine print is I've only recently started messing around 
> getting Claws Mail up to full speed with filters and stuff, so it might 
> be possible that I might have to spend some time fussing with restoring 
> some Claws settings there from a restore, but then again, perhaps not.  
> ___
> maemo-users mailing list
> maemo-users@maemo.org
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
> 
> 
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N800 released in Australia

[no-spam]

FYI, yesterday Nokia Australia officially released the N800 in that country.
(Though some retailers had already been selling it for some time before then.)

Regards - Peter Edwards
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RE: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Tim]

All,

I think I have you beat. I just reflashed with the (now) previous
firmware because updating a lib in red-pill mode bricked my N800:

http://sense-datum.org/tim/archive/2007/09/17/Sunburned_parched_and_otherwis/tim_samoff__weblog

It took me an entire weekend  to gett back up to speed. So, in
response, this new update is definitely _not_ cool. :(

Tim

--
Weblog ~ http://tim.samoff.com
Baby Blog ~ http://kc.samoff.com
Photography ~ http://www.flickr.com/photos/timsamoff
Film ~ http://www.youtube.com/timsamoff
Music ~ http://www.adkoc.com
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Auto Backup

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Is there an automated scheduled back up utility somewhere on Maemo that 
would allow one to automatically back up the unit in the middle of the 
night when it's idling along/charging? 

Seems like a no brainer utility that ought to be available. 

Always, Fred C
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in 20
> minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take over 90
> minutes.
  If you limit your curiosity to those over 90 minutes, you'll 
purposefully skew the results, which really isn't appropriate. 

  I'm a 20 minute flash and restore kind of guy, back in August when I 
got the unit back from warranty service due to it's brick like 
behavior.  Most of that time was spent watching TV while the unit and 
laptop did their work.

  However, it's possible that it's easy and short for me because I've 
kept things relatively simple on my N800 with a couple games, Gizmo 
Project, Quiver photo viewer and Claws mail being just about the only 
additions.  I've configured about 20 RSS feeds and 4 weather stations.   
I've tested a fair amount of other stuff from Maemo, but then when I 
find it of limited value or unfunctional, I remove it to keep the 
clutter down.   It seems to speed boot up keeping things simple.  I 
gather it may also help the restore process...

   I guess the fine print is I've only recently started messing around 
getting Claws Mail up to full speed with filters and stuff, so it might 
be possible that I might have to spend some time fussing with restoring 
some Claws settings there from a restore, but then again, perhaps not.  
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[James Sparenberg]

On Tuesday 02 October 2007 14:43:34 Gary Baribault wrote:
> I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in 20
> minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take over 90
> minutes. I'm near there and have only had the toy for about 20 days. By
> the time I'm finished customizing the application load, configurations,
> ssh keys, and assorted other things, I will be well over that 90
> minutes, and I'm sure many other owners are even more customized!
>
> Anyone care to host a survey of all applications that we load and how
> much time it takes to reflash/customize/restore? (Not to mention re-test
> the restore!)
>
>
> Gary Baribault
> Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> GPG Key: 0x4346F013
> GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
>
> Jac Kersing wrote:
> > On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Michael Wiktowy wrote:
> >> Reality is that they are much closer to the resource constrains of a
> >> cell phone and I don't know of a single cell phone that doesn't just
> >> wipe everything that isn't on the SIM or external memory card on a
> >> firmware update ...
> >
> > Sorry, not true. All (recent) S60 devices are firmware upgradable, backup
> > before, flash new firmware, restore and all applications are available.
> > (Somehow they forget to save/restore the bluetooth pairing information,
> > but everything works just fine)
> >
> >> All that being said, I am not sure how many apps you have but reloading
> >> my IT after a firmware update has never taken me 2-4 hours.
> >
> > Having to reinstall is a pain. Enabling blue pill mode for some packages.
> > Resetting the root password after install of sshd. It is not cool to have
> > to do every OS upgrade.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jac

Actually I've found that doing it the Linux way for the rebuild helps  
however it still takes more than 6 hours of my time to get it all back 
together.  A tone of small tweaks etc.  Where some of the problem lies is 
that Nokia is a phone company, hardware wise.  I think a lot of things (like 
users wanting to keep the older version more than a year).  Really caught 
them off guard.  

Again though if this is a kernel level patch couldn't this be rolled into a 
kernel flash?  Also if it is a kernel patch.  Is the source up yet (need to 
get mppe in)

James
 
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[James Sparenberg]

On Tuesday 02 October 2007 12:19:49 Andrew Flegg wrote:
> On 10/2/07, Acadia Secure Networks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Also it would be helpful if Nokia would clearly specify ALL of the
> > changes in this release. Is there any reason not to?
>
> The fact that the initial digit (i.e. the revision number) is the same
> suggests that the changes are minor. How do you know that it's *not*
> just the SDHC card fix?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andrew


If it is just the SDHC card fix, and that would be kernel level.  Could a 
Kernel image accomplish the same thing?

James
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RE: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Dr. Nicholas Shaw]

Kemal,

That's nice.  I also have an e-mail from Nokia stating that it would be
fixed in the 2d release.  Don't mind if I don't hold my breath.
Regards,

Nick.
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Kemal Hadimli
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 3:57 PM
To: maemo-users@maemo.org
Subject: Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

Nokia already announced that this will be fixed in the upcoming 4.x
Chinhook release. To install 4.0 you'll have to reflash but after 4.0,
each new release will be upgradable via dpkg.

Please do your research first. And no, caps won't help.


On 10/2/07, Dr. Nicholas Shaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I can't believe that Nokia still expects its users to reload everything in
> order to install a patch.  This has got to be the most poorly designed OS
> I've ever encountered.  Fixing this should be their #1 priority.
> comes out is absurd.  I've done this twice now.  No way will I install
this
> patch and go through that headache again!  Nokia, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO
GET
> THIS FIXED???

-- 
Kemal
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Gary Baribault]

Yeah, and as I said, I just got it, I assume (yep I know .. ass of you
and me) that I will get better at doing this, but it will also get more
customized. So .. I don't expect my time to get better, and I wonder if
Nokia could not change their priorities and give us this fuctionality
earlier .. sorry guys, but I think it's important.


Gary Baribault
Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPG Key: 0x4346F013
GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013



Thomas Leavitt wrote:
> Would take me at least that long... took that long when I had to 
> re-flash my N770 after a system crash, just a few days after I bought 
> the thing. Now? Much longer, I'm sure. Probably several hours, 
> continuous, and then several days of fiddling and oh I forgot that, etc.
> 
> Thomas
> 
> Dr. Nicholas Shaw wrote:
>> I'm 3-4 hours.
>>
>> Nick. 
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> On Behalf Of Gary Baribault
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 3:44 PM
>> To: Jac Kersing
>> Cc: maemo-users@maemo.org
>> Subject: Re: 4.2007.38-2 available
>>
>> I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in 20
>> minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take over 90
>> minutes. I'm near there and have only had the toy for about 20 days. By
>> the time I'm finished customizing the application load, configurations,
>> ssh keys, and assorted other things, I will be well over that 90
>> minutes, and I'm sure many other owners are even more customized!
>>
>> Anyone care to host a survey of all applications that we load and how
>> much time it takes to reflash/customize/restore? (Not to mention re-test
>> the restore!)
>>
>>
>> Gary Baribault
>> Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> GPG Key: 0x4346F013
>> GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
>>
>>
>>
>> Jac Kersing wrote:
>>   
>>> On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Michael Wiktowy wrote:
>>>
>>> 
 Reality is that they are much closer to the resource constrains of a 
 cell phone and I don't know of a single cell phone that doesn't just 
 wipe everything that isn't on the SIM or external memory card on a 
 firmware update ...
   
>>> Sorry, not true. All (recent) S60 devices are firmware upgradable, backup 
>>> before, flash new firmware, restore and all applications are available.
>>> (Somehow they forget to save/restore the bluetooth pairing information, 
>>> but everything works just fine)
>>>
>>> 
 All that being said, I am not sure how many apps you have but reloading 
 my IT after a firmware update has never taken me 2-4 hours.
   
>>> Having to reinstall is a pain. Enabling blue pill mode for some packages. 
>>> Resetting the root password after install of sshd. It is not cool to have 
>>> to do every OS upgrade.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Jac
>>>
>>> ---
>>>   Jac KersingTechnical Consultant   The-Box Development
>>>   [EMAIL PROTECTED] CISSP   RHCEhttp://www.the-box.com
>>> ___
>>> maemo-users mailing list
>>> maemo-users@maemo.org
>>> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>>>
>>>
>>> 
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Thomas Leavitt]

Would take me at least that long... took that long when I had to 
re-flash my N770 after a system crash, just a few days after I bought 
the thing. Now? Much longer, I'm sure. Probably several hours, 
continuous, and then several days of fiddling and oh I forgot that, etc.

Thomas

Dr. Nicholas Shaw wrote:
> I'm 3-4 hours.
>
> Nick. 
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Gary Baribault
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 3:44 PM
> To: Jac Kersing
> Cc: maemo-users@maemo.org
> Subject: Re: 4.2007.38-2 available
>
> I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in 20
> minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take over 90
> minutes. I'm near there and have only had the toy for about 20 days. By
> the time I'm finished customizing the application load, configurations,
> ssh keys, and assorted other things, I will be well over that 90
> minutes, and I'm sure many other owners are even more customized!
>
> Anyone care to host a survey of all applications that we load and how
> much time it takes to reflash/customize/restore? (Not to mention re-test
> the restore!)
>
>
> Gary Baribault
> Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> GPG Key: 0x4346F013
> GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
>
>
>
> Jac Kersing wrote:
>   
>> On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Michael Wiktowy wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> Reality is that they are much closer to the resource constrains of a 
>>> cell phone and I don't know of a single cell phone that doesn't just 
>>> wipe everything that isn't on the SIM or external memory card on a 
>>> firmware update ...
>>>   
>> Sorry, not true. All (recent) S60 devices are firmware upgradable, backup 
>> before, flash new firmware, restore and all applications are available.
>> (Somehow they forget to save/restore the bluetooth pairing information, 
>> but everything works just fine)
>>
>> 
>>> All that being said, I am not sure how many apps you have but reloading 
>>> my IT after a firmware update has never taken me 2-4 hours.
>>>   
>> Having to reinstall is a pain. Enabling blue pill mode for some packages. 
>> Resetting the root password after install of sshd. It is not cool to have 
>> to do every OS upgrade.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jac
>>
>> ---
>>   Jac KersingTechnical Consultant   The-Box Development
>>   [EMAIL PROTECTED] CISSP   RHCEhttp://www.the-box.com
>> ___
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>>
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>> 
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Kemal Hadimli]

Nokia already announced that this will be fixed in the upcoming 4.x
Chinhook release. To install 4.0 you'll have to reflash but after 4.0,
each new release will be upgradable via dpkg.

Please do your research first. And no, caps won't help.


On 10/2/07, Dr. Nicholas Shaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I can't believe that Nokia still expects its users to reload everything in
> order to install a patch.  This has got to be the most poorly designed OS
> I've ever encountered.  Fixing this should be their #1 priority.
> comes out is absurd.  I've done this twice now.  No way will I install this
> patch and go through that headache again!  Nokia, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO GET
> THIS FIXED???

-- 
Kemal
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RE: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Dr. Nicholas Shaw]

I'm 3-4 hours.

Nick. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Gary Baribault
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 3:44 PM
To: Jac Kersing
Cc: maemo-users@maemo.org
Subject: Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in 20
minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take over 90
minutes. I'm near there and have only had the toy for about 20 days. By
the time I'm finished customizing the application load, configurations,
ssh keys, and assorted other things, I will be well over that 90
minutes, and I'm sure many other owners are even more customized!

Anyone care to host a survey of all applications that we load and how
much time it takes to reflash/customize/restore? (Not to mention re-test
the restore!)


Gary Baribault
Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPG Key: 0x4346F013
GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013



Jac Kersing wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Michael Wiktowy wrote:
> 
>> Reality is that they are much closer to the resource constrains of a 
>> cell phone and I don't know of a single cell phone that doesn't just 
>> wipe everything that isn't on the SIM or external memory card on a 
>> firmware update ...
> 
> Sorry, not true. All (recent) S60 devices are firmware upgradable, backup 
> before, flash new firmware, restore and all applications are available.
> (Somehow they forget to save/restore the bluetooth pairing information, 
> but everything works just fine)
> 
>> All that being said, I am not sure how many apps you have but reloading 
>> my IT after a firmware update has never taken me 2-4 hours.
> 
> Having to reinstall is a pain. Enabling blue pill mode for some packages. 
> Resetting the root password after install of sshd. It is not cool to have 
> to do every OS upgrade.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jac
> 
> ---
>   Jac KersingTechnical Consultant   The-Box Development
>   [EMAIL PROTECTED] CISSP   RHCEhttp://www.the-box.com
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Gary Baribault]

I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in 20
minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take over 90
minutes. I'm near there and have only had the toy for about 20 days. By
the time I'm finished customizing the application load, configurations,
ssh keys, and assorted other things, I will be well over that 90
minutes, and I'm sure many other owners are even more customized!

Anyone care to host a survey of all applications that we load and how
much time it takes to reflash/customize/restore? (Not to mention re-test
the restore!)


Gary Baribault
Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPG Key: 0x4346F013
GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013



Jac Kersing wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Michael Wiktowy wrote:
> 
>> Reality is that they are much closer to the resource constrains of a 
>> cell phone and I don't know of a single cell phone that doesn't just 
>> wipe everything that isn't on the SIM or external memory card on a 
>> firmware update ...
> 
> Sorry, not true. All (recent) S60 devices are firmware upgradable, backup 
> before, flash new firmware, restore and all applications are available.
> (Somehow they forget to save/restore the bluetooth pairing information, 
> but everything works just fine)
> 
>> All that being said, I am not sure how many apps you have but reloading 
>> my IT after a firmware update has never taken me 2-4 hours.
> 
> Having to reinstall is a pain. Enabling blue pill mode for some packages. 
> Resetting the root password after install of sshd. It is not cool to have 
> to do every OS upgrade.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jac
> 
> ---
>   Jac KersingTechnical Consultant   The-Box Development
>   [EMAIL PROTECTED] CISSP   RHCEhttp://www.the-box.com
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Jac Kersing]

On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Michael Wiktowy wrote:

> Reality is that they are much closer to the resource constrains of a 
> cell phone and I don't know of a single cell phone that doesn't just 
> wipe everything that isn't on the SIM or external memory card on a 
> firmware update ...

Sorry, not true. All (recent) S60 devices are firmware upgradable, backup 
before, flash new firmware, restore and all applications are available.
(Somehow they forget to save/restore the bluetooth pairing information, 
but everything works just fine)

> All that being said, I am not sure how many apps you have but reloading 
> my IT after a firmware update has never taken me 2-4 hours.

Having to reinstall is a pain. Enabling blue pill mode for some packages. 
Resetting the root password after install of sshd. It is not cool to have 
to do every OS upgrade.

Regards,

Jac

---
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  [EMAIL PROTECTED] CISSP   RHCEhttp://www.the-box.com
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RE: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Dr. Nicholas Shaw]

I'm not sure I would characterize not performing updates without having to
reflash as an outrage against nature but it is more than mildly frustrating.
If we consider, for the N800, all updates since January and if it takes 3
hours to update the device plus reload/reconfigure all applications (this of
course depends upon how many applications we have) then a typical power user
might have spent up to 12 hours or more in less than a year.  I think, for a
device designed to make life easier, this is unacceptable.  

In one particular case, prior to updating in August my BT keyboard became
fully functional due to something I must have downloaded/installed.  Now
it's back to ok functional.  I'm sure it might become fully functional if
only I knew what changed but I don't.

I do backups every day so reflashing + restore does indeed return my
settings and bookmarks.  But, as others have already noted, that's only a
part of the story.  Reinstalling applications and reconfiguring those
applications is time consuming and tedious.

I don't know (not from your e-mail Michael) if comparing the tablets to
other phones is a reasonable comparison.  Perhaps comparing tablets to
phones such as Palm and Windows devices, such as a Treo, is more reasonable
as they have OS' and applications.  For these OS' it is possible to update
without reflashing or reloading applications.  Thus, I believe it is
perfectly reasonable to expect the same of a 'higher order' device.

Nick.
 

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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Gary Baribault]

I have a cell and have had one for a long time .. I use it to make phone
calls and ignore the MP3/WEB and Camera. I also have three digital
cameras I don't need another one. I have a Creative Zen M with a 30Gig
drive that I'm looking forward to giving to my son when I start to use
my N800 for MP3s. I didn't buy the Apple IPhone because it's closed and
forces me to buy DRM laden MP3s from a snooty Apple. Sorry not
interested .. I bought the N800, because it runs Linux, it's open and
it's just about perfect. I bought it because I want a mobile Internet
browser, with enough memory, and I wanted a WiFi XTerm portable that
could play MP3s and make VoIP calls. The built in camera is a nice
bonus, for chatting ... not for pictures.

I'm sure that I'm not the only person who was waiting for this, I was
even tempted with the IPhone, but would never have used the ITunes.

Nokia is very close to perfect with this, but it is NOT a phone, it's a
very small laptop or a big Palm/IPaQ .. it should be treated as such. I
know that it's ressource constrained, but I would be surprised if anyone
doesn't have a free 2/4 Gig external card that they would gladly insert
during upgrades to give Nokia a little extra storage during upgrades if
that's what they need.

I'm not that pissed off, but am making a suggestion that would allow me
to suggest to about 20 or 30 friends in IT that THE device is finally
here. Heck, my dad is near 80, was in IT for 30 years and would love to
have one for his travels rather that his Thinkpad T23, but not if he has
to re-install everything every time he updates it.


Gary Baribault
Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPG Key: 0x4346F013
GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013



Michael Wiktowy wrote:
> On 10/2/07, Gary Baribault <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> OK then, can I beat up on them? I agree, this is a lousy way of doing
>> the updates, I cannot suggest this device to anyone if every time there
>> is an update, all applications have to be re-installed!! Why can't the
>> update take a proper#full backup to a flash card, dump a list of
>> applications, and after the flash, re-install the latest updated
>> applications?
>>
>> It would have to be possible to overide, since some applications would
>> need to be updated, and it should be possible to tell the device to go
>> aheah and wipe everything out, but what where going to have here soon is
>> many devices out of date because people don't want to go through with
>> the update and then 2 - 4 hours of re-installs. That's not only
>> dangerous but very lousy for the reputation of the device.
> 
> This conversation has been had many times in the past and Nokia has
> resisted it since it complicates updates in a huge way. It is a fact
> that it is more difficult to do this on a resource constrained system
> like the Internet Tablets than on a regular desktop. Now Nokia
> realizes that users really really want this and are putting in the
> resources to make it happen according to their presentations. I
> suspect that we will see it in Chinook or (more likely) Diablo.
> 
> However, I think people's perceptions that Nokia not offering this
> functionality in the first place is an outrage against Nature are born
> from their mistaken belief that the Internet Tablets are just a small
> desktop machine and have the same constraints and should behave the
> same way. Reality is that they are much closer to the resource
> constrains of a cell phone and I don't know of a single cell phone
> that doesn't just wipe everything that isn't on the SIM or external
> memory card on a firmware update ... if they offer a firmware updates
> at all. Just look at the iPhone firmware fiasco happening right now.
> The iPhone has about the same resource contraints as an N800. Apple is
> not even letting users *install* third party apps and are
> intentionally bricking them if they have hacked it open. So compared
> to that user-hostile treatment, living with a Nokia device is not so
> hard to take.
> 
> All that being said, I am not sure how many apps you have but
> reloading my IT after a firmware update has never taken me 2-4 hours.
> There are things that you can do to make it much quicker. Make a
> backup on the external card. That will save your bookmarks,
> preferences ... pretty much everything except your installed apps. If
> you save the .install file (or the .deb file for those apps without
> one) each time you install an app, it is trivial to figure out what
> you need to install again after a firmware update. If you keep your
> application data on an external memory card, it will be nearly
> instantly accessible once you do reinstall. The data on the internal
> card will be instantly accessible once you restore the backup.
> 
> Just a few thoughts to make your update less traumatic.
> 
> /Mike
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Michael Wiktowy]

On 10/2/07, Gary Baribault <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> OK then, can I beat up on them? I agree, this is a lousy way of doing
> the updates, I cannot suggest this device to anyone if every time there
> is an update, all applications have to be re-installed!! Why can't the
> update take a proper#full backup to a flash card, dump a list of
> applications, and after the flash, re-install the latest updated
> applications?
>
> It would have to be possible to overide, since some applications would
> need to be updated, and it should be possible to tell the device to go
> aheah and wipe everything out, but what where going to have here soon is
> many devices out of date because people don't want to go through with
> the update and then 2 - 4 hours of re-installs. That's not only
> dangerous but very lousy for the reputation of the device.

This conversation has been had many times in the past and Nokia has
resisted it since it complicates updates in a huge way. It is a fact
that it is more difficult to do this on a resource constrained system
like the Internet Tablets than on a regular desktop. Now Nokia
realizes that users really really want this and are putting in the
resources to make it happen according to their presentations. I
suspect that we will see it in Chinook or (more likely) Diablo.

However, I think people's perceptions that Nokia not offering this
functionality in the first place is an outrage against Nature are born
from their mistaken belief that the Internet Tablets are just a small
desktop machine and have the same constraints and should behave the
same way. Reality is that they are much closer to the resource
constrains of a cell phone and I don't know of a single cell phone
that doesn't just wipe everything that isn't on the SIM or external
memory card on a firmware update ... if they offer a firmware updates
at all. Just look at the iPhone firmware fiasco happening right now.
The iPhone has about the same resource contraints as an N800. Apple is
not even letting users *install* third party apps and are
intentionally bricking them if they have hacked it open. So compared
to that user-hostile treatment, living with a Nokia device is not so
hard to take.

All that being said, I am not sure how many apps you have but
reloading my IT after a firmware update has never taken me 2-4 hours.
There are things that you can do to make it much quicker. Make a
backup on the external card. That will save your bookmarks,
preferences ... pretty much everything except your installed apps. If
you save the .install file (or the .deb file for those apps without
one) each time you install an app, it is trivial to figure out what
you need to install again after a firmware update. If you keep your
application data on an external memory card, it will be nearly
instantly accessible once you do reinstall. The data on the internal
card will be instantly accessible once you restore the backup.

Just a few thoughts to make your update less traumatic.

/Mike
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Gary Baribault]

OK then, can I beat up on them? I agree, this is a lousy way of doing
the updates, I cannot suggest this device to anyone if every time there
is an update, all applications have to be re-installed!! Why can't the
update take a proper#full backup to a flash card, dump a list of
applications, and after the flash, re-install the latest updated
applications?

It would have to be possible to overide, since some applications would
need to be updated, and it should be possible to tell the device to go
aheah and wipe everything out, but what where going to have here soon is
many devices out of date because people don't want to go through with
the update and then 2 - 4 hours of re-installs. That's not only
dangerous but very lousy for the reputation of the device.



Gary Baribault
Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPG Key: 0x4346F013
GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013



Dr. Nicholas Shaw wrote:
> Thanks, John.  I shouldn't have lost my cool.  If you go to the regular
> update site, this 'fix' wasn't listed.  If it is just a minor fix (major to
> some folks), it makes even less sense to completely flash the device.
> 
> Ok, I'm going to stop beating up Nokia now and do some work... :-)
> 
> Nick.
>  
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Acadia Secure Networks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 12:55 PM
> To: Dr. Nicholas Shaw
> Cc: maemo-users@maemo.org
> Subject: Re: 4.2007.38-2 available
> 
> Nick,
> 
> I share your pain and I wholeheartedly agree. The product will not find 
> traction in the business market (if that is a market in which Nokia has 
> interest for this product) unless this problem is fixed.
> 
> Also it would be helpful if Nokia would clearly specify ALL of the 
> changes in this release. Is there any reason not to?
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> John Holmblad
> 
> Acadia Secure Networks
> *serving the SmartDigital^TM home, entrepreneurial enterprise, and 
> emerging network service provider markets***
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> Dr. Nicholas Shaw wrote:
>> I can't believe that Nokia still expects its users to reload 
>> everything in order to install a patch. This has got to be the most 
>> poorly designed OS I've ever encountered. Fixing this should be their 
>> #1 priority.
>>
>> I'm sorry to vent but this makes no sense. Many, like me, held off 
>> updating the last 'update' so bugs could be worked out. I waited until 
>> almost mid-August before updating and it took me a few hours to 
>> re-install all the applications I had before. To expect us to do that 
>> every time a new release comes out is absurd. I've done this twice 
>> now. No way will I install this patch and go through that headache 
>> again! *Nokia, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO GET THIS FIXED???*
>>
>> After the first release a message went out saying the next release 
>> would fix it. I bought my N800 the day it was released and here we 
>> are, three releases later, and still no fix in sight. L
>>
>> Nick.
>>
>> 
>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>>   
> 
> 
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RE: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Dr. Nicholas Shaw]

Thanks, John.  I shouldn't have lost my cool.  If you go to the regular
update site, this 'fix' wasn't listed.  If it is just a minor fix (major to
some folks), it makes even less sense to completely flash the device.

Ok, I'm going to stop beating up Nokia now and do some work... :-)

Nick.
 

-Original Message-
From: Acadia Secure Networks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 12:55 PM
To: Dr. Nicholas Shaw
Cc: maemo-users@maemo.org
Subject: Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

Nick,

I share your pain and I wholeheartedly agree. The product will not find 
traction in the business market (if that is a market in which Nokia has 
interest for this product) unless this problem is fixed.

Also it would be helpful if Nokia would clearly specify ALL of the 
changes in this release. Is there any reason not to?

Best Regards,

John Holmblad

Acadia Secure Networks
*serving the SmartDigital^TM home, entrepreneurial enterprise, and 
emerging network service provider markets***

* *


Dr. Nicholas Shaw wrote:
>
> I can't believe that Nokia still expects its users to reload 
> everything in order to install a patch. This has got to be the most 
> poorly designed OS I've ever encountered. Fixing this should be their 
> #1 priority.
>
> I'm sorry to vent but this makes no sense. Many, like me, held off 
> updating the last 'update' so bugs could be worked out. I waited until 
> almost mid-August before updating and it took me a few hours to 
> re-install all the applications I had before. To expect us to do that 
> every time a new release comes out is absurd. I've done this twice 
> now. No way will I install this patch and go through that headache 
> again! *Nokia, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO GET THIS FIXED???*
>
> After the first release a message went out saying the next release 
> would fix it. I bought my N800 the day it was released and here we 
> are, three releases later, and still no fix in sight. L
>
> Nick.
>
> 
>
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>   


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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Mike Klein]

This is how I read the announcement...fixes for just 2 bugs. However it
would be nice to see official change listeven if only to list these
2 bugs.

Btw (not to compare rotten apples to florida oranges) but WM
phones/devices and many others work the same way...reflash and reinstall.

I  that WM6 is going to offer an online update facility to
address these issues...but carriers may have a say in this.


mike

Andrew Flegg wrote:
> On 10/2/07, Acadia Secure Networks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>> Also it would be helpful if Nokia would clearly specify ALL of the
>> changes in this release. Is there any reason not to?
>> 
>
> The fact that the initial digit (i.e. the revision number) is the same
> suggests that the changes are minor. How do you know that it's *not*
> just the SDHC card fix?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andrew
>
>   
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Andrew Flegg]

On 10/2/07, Acadia Secure Networks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Also it would be helpful if Nokia would clearly specify ALL of the
> changes in this release. Is there any reason not to?

The fact that the initial digit (i.e. the revision number) is the same
suggests that the changes are minor. How do you know that it's *not*
just the SDHC card fix?

Cheers,

Andrew

-- 
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Acadia Secure Networks]

Nick,

I share your pain and I wholeheartedly agree. The product will not find 
traction in the business market (if that is a market in which Nokia has 
interest for this product) unless this problem is fixed.

Also it would be helpful if Nokia would clearly specify ALL of the 
changes in this release. Is there any reason not to?

Best Regards,

John Holmblad

Acadia Secure Networks
*serving the SmartDigital^TM home, entrepreneurial enterprise, and 
emerging network service provider markets***

* *


Dr. Nicholas Shaw wrote:
>
> I can’t believe that Nokia still expects its users to reload 
> everything in order to install a patch. This has got to be the most 
> poorly designed OS I’ve ever encountered. Fixing this should be their 
> #1 priority.
>
> I’m sorry to vent but this makes no sense. Many, like me, held off 
> updating the last ‘update’ so bugs could be worked out. I waited until 
> almost mid-August before updating and it took me a few hours to 
> re-install all the applications I had before. To expect us to do that 
> every time a new release comes out is absurd. I’ve done this twice 
> now. No way will I install this patch and go through that headache 
> again! *Nokia, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO GET THIS FIXED???*
>
> After the first release a message went out saying the next release 
> would fix it. I bought my N800 the day it was released and here we 
> are, three releases later, and still no fix in sight. L
>
> Nick.
>
> 
>
> ___
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>   

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RE: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Dr. Nicholas Shaw]

I can't believe that Nokia still expects its users to reload everything in
order to install a patch.  This has got to be the most poorly designed OS
I've ever encountered.  Fixing this should be their #1 priority.  

 

I'm sorry to vent but this makes no sense.  Many, like me, held off updating
the last 'update' so bugs could be worked out.  I waited until almost
mid-August before updating and it took me a few hours to re-install all the
applications I had before.  To expect us to do that every time a new release
comes out is absurd.  I've done this twice now.  No way will I install this
patch and go through that headache again!  Nokia, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO GET
THIS FIXED???

 

After the first release a message went out saying the next release would fix
it.  I bought my N800 the day it was released and here we are, three
releases later, and still no fix in sight. :-(

 

Nick.

 

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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Josh Smith]

There is a thread (or two) about this on ITT.

http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10014&page=7

cheers,
josh

On 10/2/07, Piotr Zagorowski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you are asking about:
>
> "This new release (version number 4.2007.38-2) provides a software fix for a
> bug which may have appeared while copying large amount of data over-the-air
> or from external SDHC memory card to internal memory or vice versa. In some
> cases the downloaded data may have corrupted"
> - and now all data are wiped completely - i hope not ;))
>
> And more seriously:
> "Beware that flashing a new image on the Nokia 770 or on the Nokia N800 will
> remove all user changes to the system, including preferences, bookmarks,
> news feeds, user installed applications... Everything not on the memory card
> will be gone and the device will behave as if just purchased with the single
> exception that any previously-set lock code will be kept and not reset to
> the factory-default of "12345" (even the code is not preserved on some
> images)."
>
> Pit
>
>
> On 10/2/07, Alan Williamson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > will this one wipe all the data?
> >
> > Piotr Zagorowski wrote:
> > > you have probably noticed:
> > >
> > >
> http://maemo.org/news/announcements/view/1191328183.html
> > ___
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> > maemo-users@maemo.org
> > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Piotr
> -
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Piotr Zagorowski]

If you are asking about:

"This new release (version number 4.2007.38-2) provides a software fix for a
bug  which may have appeared
while copying large amount of data over-the-air or from external SDHC memory
card to internal memory or vice versa. In some cases the downloaded data may
have corrupted"
- and now all data are wiped completely - i hope not ;))

And more seriously:
"Beware that flashing a new image on the Nokia 770 or on the Nokia N800 will
remove all user changes to the system, including preferences, bookmarks,
news feeds, user installed applications... Everything not on the memory card
will be gone and the device will behave as if just purchased with the single
exception that any previously-set lock code will be kept and not reset to
the factory-default of "12345" (even the code is not preserved on some
images)."

Pit

On 10/2/07, Alan Williamson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> will this one wipe all the data?
>
> Piotr Zagorowski wrote:
> > you have probably noticed:
> >
> > http://maemo.org/news/announcements/view/1191328183.html
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-- 
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-
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Re: powerlaunch - power key shortcuts

[Austin Che]

"Kemal Hadimli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Exciting stuff! A locked screen with unlocked keys is one of the
> things I've always wanted for music playback. Of course if wouldn't be
> the same batt usage as the softpoweroff mode (as softpoweroff also
> disables keyboard interrupts) but it would be acceptable and i'll
> leave it to Nokians to discuss anyway.

I can't imagine the battery usage would change significantly (or
at all) with unlocked keys if the keys aren't pressed. And
compared with the current situation where I have to turn on the
device from softpoweroff (including turning on the screen) to do
something and then turn it back off, it certainly should save
battery.

> I'll play with powerlaunch.conf in a bit, but asking just for the sake
> of more discussion in the list: would it work with overlapping
> profiles? ie. one power key press toggles softpoweroff, but one
> powerkeypress immediately followed by (ie. in 1500 msecs) another
> action does something else?

Currently not as there's no notion of time. I was planning on
adding timers so that one could fully implement the same
touchscreen/key lock behavior found in the default system,
i.e. powerkey + select unlocks the device only if the select
occurs within some amount of time of the powerkey.

> Also, if it also detected Nokia 770 cover on/off events it'd make
> IT2007HE users (as well as regular IT2006 folks) really happy. In my
> 770 days I always wanted to use the volume buttons with the cover on.

I don't have a N770 so I don't how to detect this. Is it a dbus
message? All dbus messages that the program receives can be
handled by the config file. It would just be a matter of making
sure it listens to the right place.
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Alan Williamson]

will this one wipe all the data?

Piotr Zagorowski wrote:
> you have probably noticed:
> 
> http://maemo.org/news/announcements/view/1191328183.html
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4.2007.38-2 available

[Piotr Zagorowski]

you have probably noticed:

http://maemo.org/news/announcements/view/1191328183.html

Pit

-- 
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