Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
Sorry, Frantisek. You was right. The log entries are directly related to sounds. In particular to key clicks... In my mind, the clicks were mechanicals. :) again, sorry and thank you for pointing me! On 4/21/08, Frantisek Dufka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Giacomo Tufano wrote: > > I understand they are sound related, but I'm sure that I have those > > messages, in couples, every 10 seconds or so whatever I do. Also when > > the tablet is idle, with keyboard and screen locked. No sound is > > heard, of course. This is the reason I was thinking this was > > strange... But I really don't know. > > Yes, that's strange. I have both touchscreen and system sounds disabled > and don't have such messages in the log at all (except when using sound > actively). You also mentioned installing maemo-recorder, in theory it > could also trigger such message but there should be no reason if it is > not used. > > Frantisek > ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
Giacomo Tufano wrote: > I understand they are sound related, but I'm sure that I have those > messages, in couples, every 10 seconds or so whatever I do. Also when > the tablet is idle, with keyboard and screen locked. No sound is > heard, of course. This is the reason I was thinking this was > strange... But I really don't know. Yes, that's strange. I have both touchscreen and system sounds disabled and don't have such messages in the log at all (except when using sound actively). You also mentioned installing maemo-recorder, in theory it could also trigger such message but there should be no reason if it is not used. Frantisek ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
En/na Giacomo Tufano ha escrit: >> What applets you have enabled in Home? > > Internet search, web link (no change on standard URI), Tableteer info, > clock and Internet Radio (never used, sitting idle). > Are you using rtcomm with a voice (sip) account enabled? Bye -- Luca ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
On Monday 21 Apr 2008, Giacomo Tufano wrote: > Btw (as a comment to a previous message): everyone have a system log, > do 'dmesg' on a terminal to see it. > Have a nice evening, gt So I do! Much quieter than yours though - just a few messages about voltage regulation. -- Tony Green Ipswich, Suffolk, England http://www.beermad.org.uk http://no2id-ip.web-brewer.co.uk ** This message is digitally signed. If your email client is unable to read digital signatures, you may see an attachment that you cannot open. See http://www.gnupg.org/(en)/documentation/faqs.html for more information. You can validate my PGP key from my website: http://www.beermad.org.uk/ * No Micro$oft products were used in the generation of this communication signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
I understand they are sound related, but I'm sure that I have those messages, in couples, every 10 seconds or so whatever I do. Also when the tablet is idle, with keyboard and screen locked. No sound is heard, of course. This is the reason I was thinking this was strange... But I really don't know. Btw (as a comment to a previous message): everyone have a system log, do 'dmesg' on a terminal to see it. Have a nice evening, gt On 4/21/08, Frantisek Dufka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Giacomo Tufano wrote: > > A last note... the "EAC mode: play enable, rec (dis)(e)nabled" couple > > of messages I see in system log are "normal"? It doesn't seem so... > > This is related to sound playback. If you have touchscreen or system > sounds enabled you may have a lot of those messages (each screen touch > plays sound). > > Frantisek > ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
Giacomo Tufano wrote: > A last note... the "EAC mode: play enable, rec (dis)(e)nabled" couple > of messages I see in system log are "normal"? It doesn't seem so... This is related to sound playback. If you have touchscreen or system sounds enabled you may have a lot of those messages (each screen touch plays sound). Frantisek ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Can't become root :-(
Thanks for the suggestions, but many of them were chicken-and egg problems, and I had already tried all the "become root" methods on maemo.org. My previous upgrade from OS2008-1 to OS2008-2 had gone painlessly, including restoring all the settings and apps. It's beyond me why the restore choked when I was only reflashing the exact same OS version. Anyway, I finally just reflashed again and restored everything the hard, slow way, by doing it one thing at a time. Huge PITA, but at least I'm back in business. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 4:29 AM, Quim Gil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You keep talking about the quite stable desktop architecture. The > relevant comparison for this discussion are Linux distros or whatever OS > installed in devices fitting in your pocket offering long term support > (say 3 years) in 2005 (or today). > Not really true. This is just a weak excuse for continuing current (bad) practice. Desktop hardware is changing just as fast, and just because a subsystem performs the same apparent function doesn't mean the same drivers will work, and in fact the opposite is true. Have you tried finding OS and app support for multi-core cpus? Even 64-bit support is scarce, and it's been around for several years. > 1. From a strictly engineering point of view: look at the desktop > hardware in 2003 and now, look at the mobile hardware evolution in the > same time frame. The fact is that mobile hardware architectures are far > more unstable and this create extra hassle for platform development, > leave alone stable APIs. Sorry, but this simply isn't true. The majority of the mobile hardware has been around for a long time now, in the same way as desktop hardware. Making changes to desktops is easier not because the hardware is older, but because the hardware is better supported by its manufacturers than mobile hardware. Swapping out a desktop video card is easy because full-featured drivers come with the new card, not because the drivers are the same as for the old card. For example, GSM modems haven't changed any more than desktop subsystems, and neither have WiFi or bluetooth etc. Most of the changes have been in software and form factor. The real difference is that mobile hardware were allowed to get away with being more closed from the beginning, and are fighting tooth and nail to keep it that way. Fortunately, it looks like they may be beginning to lose their advantage. > > 2. Repeat exercise 1, now looking at top use cases in the desktop and in > mobile devices. Most computer use cases are same or similar, just deeper > and faster - requiring more memory or clock speed - but that's it. In > mobile devices the usage is quite different, getting all kinds of new > hardware pieces, APIs and performance issues. > See above. > 3. The Nokia tablets don't have planned obsolescence. The > online/multi/media context and the consumer expectations make them > obsolete faster, just like most mobile products. Online video, full AJAX > and long etc can't be easily fulfilled with old mobile hardware. You can > do some miracles on the software engineering side but at what cost and > in exchange of what. *ALL* consumer products have built-in planned obsolescence. The trick is in figuring out whether it's both necessary and acceptable due to changing needs, or artificial and premature due to the manufacturer's desire to force customers into otherwise unnecessary purchases. This is the case in the USA with digital TV. Consumers weren't buying new, extremely expensive hardware fast enough to suit the TV manufacturers, so they finally made analog TVs obsolete. HDTV is great for home theaters, but in most real-world situations it's extreme overkill. (Yeah, like I really need 1080p - or even 720i - for that 20", 12" or 7" TV, never mind hand-held devices...) The other aspect is that the standards deliberately further limit one's ability to view legally purchased content in one's own devices. It's all about making people pay many times for the same thing. > > 4. If what you have is working for you now then it should just be enough > to keep using your device like the day you bought it. However, what > happens in most cases is that a new device in a new category (like the > 770 was) gets new use cases from the people who bought them than > established products. > That's just naive. Like I said before, the N800 has the exact functionality that I want, and the N810 has little attraction for me. However, I'm speaking specifically of the hardware *possibilities*, which can only be realized with software, much of which does not ship with the device, and much of which still isn't even available from the community. The potential of the device has barely been tapped much less completely fulfilled. Yes, first-generation devices often are more limited than later generations, because you have to start *somewhere*, and you learn with each generation. Meanwhile, technology marches on and new hardware becomes available. That doesn't mean that the old hardware is no longer useful. > > > > The last time I looked at Maemo, I found that there were a lot of > > programs that I couldn't even think of adding to my N770. > > http://maemo.org/downloads/OS2006/ reports 249 third party applications > for the 770's original OS2006. Note that this is more than the number of > applications found there for the N800/N810. > The number of apps is not really relevant. What's relevant is the specific applications that
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
On Monday 21 Apr 2008, Giacomo Tufano wrote: > A last note... the "EAC mode: play enable, rec (dis)(e)nabled" couple > of messages I see in system log are "normal"? It doesn't seem so... Not only don't I see this in my system log - I don't even have a system log being written! The only log that gets written on my machine is the Apache error log, and that only gets written when something goes wrong. It seems to me that this may be significant; whatever's generating the log messages is obviously doing something. Do the log entries give any clues what it is? -- Tony Green Ipswich, Suffolk, England http://www.beermad.org.uk http://no2id-ip.web-brewer.co.uk ** This message is digitally signed. If your email client is unable to read digital signatures, you may see an attachment that you cannot open. See http://www.gnupg.org/(en)/documentation/faqs.html for more information. You can validate my PGP key from my website: http://www.beermad.org.uk/ * No Micro$oft products were used in the generation of this communication signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
Hi, On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 6:14 PM, Eero Tamminen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > ext Giacomo Tufano wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Eero Tamminen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > What applets you have enabled in Home? > > > > > Internet search, web link (no change on standard URI), Tableteer info, > > clock and Internet Radio (never used, sitting idle). > What about the Statusbar applets? Do you have an account set up > and are you online? > > > If you do following from SSH after screen has blanked: > > >strace -p $(pidof hildon-desktop|cut -d' ' -f1) > > > Is there any activity? > > I got (very fast) after the command: > > > > gettimeofday(whatever) = 0 > > ioctl(3, FIONREAD, [0]) = 0 > > gettimeofday(whatever) = 0 > > poll( > > > > and then nothing else... > > So I guess you don't have any "cpuload" applet either. > Many of them could be implemented badly i.e. polling even > when the screen turns off. I have load-applet (0.8.2-2). But I use it from many months (and many tablets and OS versions) and I never had any problem... > I would disable any applets that you don't use. If you reboot after > that, you've saved a bit of memory too. :-) I know... my use case for the load-applet is that I use it to understand when a click on Google Reader was understood by the tablet... I see the CPU gauge going up for some seconds... ;-) The same holds true for many Web 2.0 apps... :-) I have also gnotifier, configured and working. Update time 15 minutes... > > If there is something else I can try, feel free to suggest other > > option (I'm open). :-) If there are no other suggestion I'll post a > > success when I found the root cause... A last note... the "EAC mode: play enable, rec (dis)(e)nabled" couple of messages I see in system log are "normal"? It doesn't seem so... Bye, gt ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
Hi, ext Matt Emson wrote: > Eero Tamminen wrote: >>> It is. Sitting on poll(). >>> >> >> In that case crawler is not the issue. >> > > Humour me. Kill the crawler, stop it form respawning (rename the file), > fully charge your tablet, leave it over night. If it is dead as per > usual, yes it is another issue. What is there to lose, really? > > Eero, I realise you know more than I do, but just because the crawler is > currently idle, does not mean it stays idle all the time. If it doesn't, the cause for that would need to be found out. As we haven't run to the problem you have, unfortunately you need to help us to find the cause for it (i.e. way to reproduce it) if you want it fixed. If you have some time to test this, maybe you could strace crawler overnight to see whether anything triggers it to go non-idle? Before & after that you should check from "top" that it's not using CPU. > If you can > explain how else killing the crawler might solve my battery issues, I > would love to know. It's a PITA to not have it working, but it just > solves all battery issues by removing it. Going from no power in the > morning from a full charge, to lasting for a week.. come on, it's not > just co-incidence. There could be other changes / reasons for it, maybe you did some other change during the same day? Or maybe you inserted a memory card which triggered something in crawler (like the one MMC mentioned in Bugzilla which had "millions" of folders on it that had been created by accident)? - Eero ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
Hi, ext Giacomo Tufano wrote: > On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Eero Tamminen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> One possibility is a WLAN AP with broken power management, but then >> things shouldn't get that much worse with newer OS release. Another >> possibility is some process using network often. >> >> Could you try using "Offline mode" option from the power key menu? >> If it helps significantly, then the issue is related to network. > > I'll try this evening/night and I'll get back tomorrow with the results... > >> Have you enabled RSS updates? Do you leave e.g. Browser window >> open when you don't use the device? > > No (I hate programs polling automatically) :-). The only program > polling is the gmail notifier... > >> What applets you have enabled in Home? > > Internet search, web link (no change on standard URI), Tableteer info, > clock and Internet Radio (never used, sitting idle). What about the Statusbar applets? Do you have an account set up and are you online? >> If you do following from SSH after screen has blanked: >> strace -p $(pidof hildon-desktop|cut -d' ' -f1) >> Is there any activity? > > I got (very fast) after the command: > > gettimeofday(whatever) = 0 > ioctl(3, FIONREAD, [0]) = 0 > gettimeofday(whatever) = 0 > poll( > > and then nothing else... So I guess you don't have any "cpuload" applet either. Many of them could be implemented badly i.e. polling even when the screen turns off. I would disable any applets that you don't use. If you reboot after that, you've saved a bit of memory too. :-) > To answer your question in a later email (so to try to save > bandwidth): the device is not in R&D mode... > > It was before the upgrade, but I disabled the R&D mode after an email > from you a week ago, or something like that explaining the problems > with power management in this mode. > Thinking about this, I did two things: upgraded the OS AND disabling > R&D mode. But I think the latter can't be the problem, no? No. > btw: I disinstalled Canola (the program is very complex, it is a > candidate for problems/bugs). > > I'll try (in this order): > leave the tablet "as is" (to test canola); > if nothing leave the tablet with net disabled; > if nothing I'll try to kill the metalayer-crawler (but I had no > problem before, on N810 or on the 770 I used before this one and this > tablet used to have power for 4 to 7 days)... > If nothing the only other thing I can do is to reinstall OS2008 and, > then, add an application every 2-3 days to isolate the battery > offender... > > If there is something else I can try, feel free to suggest other > option (I'm open). :-) If there are no other suggestion I'll post a > success when I found the root cause... Thanks, your effort is really appreciated! > Thank you all for your help and support, - Eero PS. This is more of a note for others. The Nokia FM-radio applet for N800 can currently drain the battery a bit too. AFAIK it should be fixed when the next release comes out. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
Eero Tamminen wrote: >> It is. Sitting on poll(). >> > > In that case crawler is not the issue. > Humour me. Kill the crawler, stop it form respawning (rename the file), fully charge your tablet, leave it over night. If it is dead as per usual, yes it is another issue. What is there to lose, really? Eero, I realise you know more than I do, but just because the crawler is currently idle, does not mean it stays idle all the time. If you can explain how else killing the crawler might solve my battery issues, I would love to know. It's a PITA to not have it working, but it just solves all battery issues by removing it. Going from no power in the morning from a full charge, to lasting for a week.. come on, it's not just co-incidence. M ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 4:58 PM, Eero Tamminen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > One possibility is a WLAN AP with broken power management, but then > things shouldn't get that much worse with newer OS release. Another > possibility is some process using network often. > > Could you try using "Offline mode" option from the power key menu? > If it helps significantly, then the issue is related to network. I'll try this evening/night and I'll get back tomorrow with the results... > Have you enabled RSS updates? Do you leave e.g. Browser window > open when you don't use the device? No (I hate programs polling automatically) :-). The only program polling is the gmail notifier... > What applets you have enabled in Home? Internet search, web link (no change on standard URI), Tableteer info, clock and Internet Radio (never used, sitting idle). > If you do following from SSH after screen has blanked: > strace -p $(pidof hildon-desktop|cut -d' ' -f1) > Is there any activity? I got (very fast) after the command: gettimeofday(whatever) = 0 ioctl(3, FIONREAD, [0]) = 0 gettimeofday(whatever) = 0 poll( and then nothing else... To answer your question in a later email (so to try to save bandwidth): the device is not in R&D mode... It was before the upgrade, but I disabled the R&D mode after an email from you a week ago, or something like that explaining the problems with power management in this mode. Thinking about this, I did two things: upgraded the OS AND disabling R&D mode. But I think the latter can't be the problem, no? btw: I disinstalled Canola (the program is very complex, it is a candidate for problems/bugs). I'll try (in this order): leave the tablet "as is" (to test canola); if nothing leave the tablet with net disabled; if nothing I'll try to kill the metalayer-crawler (but I had no problem before, on N810 or on the 770 I used before this one and this tablet used to have power for 4 to 7 days)... If nothing the only other thing I can do is to reinstall OS2008 and, then, add an application every 2-3 days to isolate the battery offender... If there is something else I can try, feel free to suggest other option (I'm open). :-) If there are no other suggestion I'll post a success when I found the root cause... Thank you all for your help and support, gt ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
Hi, ext Giacomo Tufano wrote: > On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Kimmo Hämäläinen > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> On Mon, 2008-04-21 at 14:09 +0100, ext Matt Emson wrote: >> > Giacomo Tufano wrote: >> > > The 'metalayer-crawler' is, apparently, idle (bad, I'd like a simple >> > > solution). :-( >> > >> > Even though it often doesn't look like it is the metalayer-crawler, >> > killing it always makes a big difference for me. Honestly, I had my >> >> You could check it with "strace -p " (Debian >> armel package probably works). It should be sitting in the poll() >> system call when it's idle. > > It is. Sitting on poll(). In that case crawler is not the issue. > btw: strace was only an 'apt-get install strace' away (no special > repository added). > > Meanwhile I found a localization bug, btw... when apt-get complains > about unauthenticated package (strace) the correct answer is not 'y' > (as suggested by the text) but 's', the first letter of 'sì', 'yes' in > Italian. Funny. :-) Where should I file a bug, which category? Tx. I don't think we've modified apt-get, so it's probably an upstream bug. - Eero ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
Hi, ext Matt Emson wrote: > Giacomo Tufano wrote: >> After installing the last revision of OS2008 (I don't really know why >> I did it, because I had no problem on startup) battery life is very, >> very short. I go from full battery down to automatic shutdown in a >> night... > > One thing comes to mind : metalayer-crawler... This is going to be your > issue. Nokia seem to deny this is a problem, indeed I've read as much on > this list. However, the fact that with the metalayer-crawler running, I > get about the same amount of run time as you, but disabling it, I get a > week in stand by... I'd say Nokia are just plain WRONG! To fix bugs they need to be reproduced. In maemo bugzilla there are two bugs on crawler. The one about it going berzerk on symlinks in MyDocs folder is a known regression: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1842 Workaround until the fix is delivered is easy. Don't create symlinks (you cannot create them from the device UI[1], so it's not really a normal device use-case). Another bug is this where people state that they don't have a symlink: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1842 The cause is unknown because people haven't provided the requested information. If you're seeing the crawler issue, please provide the requested information about the situation in which the bug manifests: strace -p $(pidof metalayer-crawler) ls -l /proc/$(pidof metalayer-crawler)/fd/ - Eero [1] If you need to see files from elsewhere on the rootfs than MyDocs, you could either browse there with Browser or Gtk fileselector (in a program that uses Gtk file selector instead of the Hildon one). ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 3:41 PM, Kimmo Hämäläinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, 2008-04-21 at 14:09 +0100, ext Matt Emson wrote: > > Giacomo Tufano wrote: > > > The 'metalayer-crawler' is, apparently, idle (bad, I'd like a simple > > > solution). :-( > > > > Even though it often doesn't look like it is the metalayer-crawler, > > killing it always makes a big difference for me. Honestly, I had my > > You could check it with "strace -p " (Debian > armel package probably works). It should be sitting in the poll() > system call when it's idle. It is. Sitting on poll(). btw: strace was only an 'apt-get install strace' away (no special repository added). Meanwhile I found a localization bug, btw... when apt-get complains about unauthenticated package (strace) the correct answer is not 'y' (as suggested by the text) but 's', the first letter of 'sì', 'yes' in Italian. Funny. :-) Where should I file a bug, which category? Tx. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
Hi, ext Giacomo Tufano wrote: >>> On Monday 21 Apr 2008, Giacomo Tufano wrote: After installing the last revision of OS2008 (I don't really know why I did it, because I had no problem on startup) battery life is very, very short. I go from full battery down to automatic shutdown in a night... Btw. have you set your device into R&D mode? It's not cleared when the device is flashed and affects the battery life too (there are also other reasons why it shouldn't be used for longer than necessary). - Eero ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
Hi, ext Giacomo Tufano wrote: > On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 12:47 PM, Eero Tamminen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> ext Tony Green wrote: >>> On Monday 21 Apr 2008, Giacomo Tufano wrote: After installing the last revision of OS2008 (I don't really know why I did it, because I had no problem on startup) battery life is very, very short. I go from full battery down to automatic shutdown in a night... >>> It certainly sounds like it's doing a lot of work. I've found that some >>> applications hammer the battery just because they're loaded, even if they >> One should note that any constant CPU usage, even 0.1%, is enough to >> ruin use-time. >> >> I would recommend running the "top" (or "htop") from SSH so that one >> isn't confused about the XTerm updates. Also, applications using >> maemo-launcher show up as "maemo-launcher" in top. The real application >> name can be seen with: >>cat /proc/PID/cmdline >> >> If the application is "hildon-desktop" then it's one of the applets >> draining the battery. > > I tried your suggestion (ssh remotely on the idle tablet). Tried to > follow CPU usage for a while, then stopped and retried... > > The 'metalayer-crawler' is, apparently, idle (bad, I'd like a simple > solution). :-( > > The only two processes that are using CPU (both at every check of top) are: > 'cx3110x' and 'OMAP McSPI/0' > > I don't really know what those processes do, nor if they are related > to the SSH connection. They are. They are kernel tasks, first one is related to WLAN and second one is interrupt handler. We need to look for the culprit from elsewhere. > But they're using CPU... > > A look at /proc/PID/status says 'SleepAVG' 91% ijust in case this is useful... > > Again, any hint to further proceeding is appreciated. One possibility is a WLAN AP with broken power management, but then things shouldn't get that much worse with newer OS release. Another possibility is some process using network often. Could you try using "Offline mode" option from the power key menu? If it helps significantly, then the issue is related to network. Have you enabled RSS updates? Do you leave e.g. Browser window open when you don't use the device? What applets you have enabled in Home? If you do following from SSH after screen has blanked: strace -p $(pidof hildon-desktop|cut -d' ' -f1) Is there any activity? - Eero ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
Kimmo Hämäläinen wrote: > On Mon, 2008-04-21 at 14:09 +0100, ext Matt Emson wrote: > >> Even though it often doesn't look like it is the metalayer-crawler, >> killing it always makes a big difference for me. Honestly, I had my >> > ... > > You could check it with "strace -p " (Debian > armel package probably works). It should be sitting in the poll() > system call when it's idle. Killing the crawler is good enough to get the desired results in my case. I can't see that re-enabling it will be helpful for my own personal tablet. The power drain is bad news, and should be fixable. Idon't claim to know exactly what causes the issue, but I still hold up the opinion that the crawler is bad news on many* N8x0 systems. I've seen a load of users have this issue on the IT forums and this list. Something somewhere is going wrong. For me it was this, so I stick to my guns and say - Metalater-crawler == poor battery life. Obviously, YMMV. Whatever the issue.. it's real. It's a big issue for many users. It's not an obvious error, cause I'm guessing it would be fixed by now if that were the case. All I can report is what I have already stated in a hope it can be useful. * I can't quantify "many", so I will not claim "all". ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
On Mon, 2008-04-21 at 14:09 +0100, ext Matt Emson wrote: > Giacomo Tufano wrote: > > The 'metalayer-crawler' is, apparently, idle (bad, I'd like a simple > > solution). :-( > > > > Even though it often doesn't look like it is the metalayer-crawler, > killing it always makes a big difference for me. Honestly, I had my ... You could check it with "strace -p " (Debian armel package probably works). It should be sitting in the poll() system call when it's idle. BR; Kimmo ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
Quim Gil wrote: > Frantisek Dufka wrote: >> BTW is the first 2008HE also the last one? > > Undecided. Is it worth investing more time on this? If so, is it worth > investing it keeping the current way or finding a way for the community > to take over? Current way is not ideal from the beginning. Each hacker edition so far was done without any public progress or discussion. So far the community role was mostly asking about progress with no answer, waiting, and later reporting bugs in garage tracker after some release appeared. As example see garage project forum https://garage.maemo.org/forum/forum.php?forum_id=612 or tracker https://garage.maemo.org/tracker/?group_id=164 Mostly there is no response from project maintainers. Same happens when one asks here in the mailing list. > The 770 topic itself is important according to user > reactions in the Internet but is it out there enough users, developers > and "install base" to make this happen? I don't know. Maybe you have download statistics for hacker editions? Maybe some permanent poll/survey can be done directly on hacker edition download page so nobody will miss it next time? It would be interesting to know how many active users there are and how many of them are developers that are interested in helping with takeover and maintenance. Also this is not only about 770. We are going to have same problem with N8x0 once next generation of (OMAP3 based?) tablets comes (hopefuly soon :-). There are same issues with N8x0 related to closed stuff in initfs, wi-fi driver, dsp etc. Installed base is bigger and we probably can't expect Nokia to suport N8x0 forever so sooner or later we get to the same point of 'hacker editions' for N8x0. If it turns out that it is not worthwhile for 770 due to not enough community people interested, there is high chance it won't be the case with N8x0. And since the problematic closed hardware and software is almost identical for 770 and N8x0, we may as well try to start with 770 now. It can take some time so if 770 dies in obsolescence in the meanwhile, it will be just about time for N8x0 :-) It is understandable Nokia (or any other company) is really bad at maintaining old products. Nokia people are busy working on current and next stuff so old stuff becomes quickly forgotten inside the company. Even if someone from inside wants to help, finds spare time and even decides he is allowed to help (almost unrealistic scenario) he finds that any information for older product (770 today) is gone and nobody knows anything anymore. The sooner company dumps such information with the community the better. Frantisek ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
Giacomo Tufano wrote: > The 'metalayer-crawler' is, apparently, idle (bad, I'd like a simple > solution). :-( > Even though it often doesn't look like it is the metalayer-crawler, killing it always makes a big difference for me. Honestly, I had my first week of N800 ownership with the battery lasting not much past one day. If it still had a charge in the morning, it was at critical levels. I removed the crawler after seeking advice, and the battery life is not up to a week. I use my tablet about 1 - 2 hours a day, 5+ nights a week. I can charge it up at the weekend and easily still have battery enough to surf on Friday. If I leave it in stand by (select "switch off WLAN", "lock keys and turn off screen") it will last over 7 days with no use and still have at least 1 hour of use online. The key, kill the crawler process and stop it from re starting and turn off bluetooth and WLAN when you are not using the device. The worrying thing is that the metalayer-crawler might actually be harming the battery by putting it at critical levels repeatedly. Lithium ion batteries like to be about 80% charged, any more than 80% and they can be unhappy if left charged for periods, but also - any less than say 40% and they also get unhappy. Most batteries die because they go below the minimum safe charge level, which harms their chemical makeup and their capacity (from what I have read.) ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
En/na Quim Gil ha escrit: > Luca Olivetti wrote: >> Well, yes, but a company that buys chipsets in the millions has a lot >> more bargaining force with its suppliers than a lone hacker in a >> basement, hasn't it? > > In theory yes, in practice the game doesn't work like this. Bargaining > doesn't necessarily help a business ecosystem and a sustainable > relationship. Right, let's say that nokia, as a VIP customer of TI, is in a better position to explain the importance of disclosing specs (so that free drivers can be produced by the community) than a lone hacker in a basement (to whom TI doesn't even sell directly its wares). Obviously only if nokia does get it itself. I understand they fear disclosing the specs would make copying their wares easier, but other manufacturers don't seem to have a problem with that. > Understanding why to opensource is as important as > understanding why a company prefers to keep the code closed. Why > hardware vendors don't provide open source drivers or good documentation > for free? Because they usually can[*] get away with it. [*]could, I hope things are changing > What should change in their business to see a benefit from > opensourcing drivers and documenting hardware? Well, I think (and I may be wrong) that they'll change only when they see that their customers go shopping elsewhere, favouring more open suppliers. I won't personally buy, e.g., any nvidia stuff, and I'll try to avoid anything with broadcom stuff inside (but it is just me). Bye -- Luca ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
Hi, On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 12:47 PM, Eero Tamminen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, > > > ext Tony Green wrote: > > On Monday 21 Apr 2008, Giacomo Tufano wrote: > >> After installing the last revision of OS2008 (I don't really know why I did > >> it, because I had no problem on startup) battery life is very, very short. > >> I > >> go from full battery down to automatic shutdown in a night... > > It certainly sounds like it's doing a lot of work. I've found that some > > applications hammer the battery just because they're loaded, even if they > > One should note that any constant CPU usage, even 0.1%, is enough to > ruin use-time. > > I would recommend running the "top" (or "htop") from SSH so that one > isn't confused about the XTerm updates. Also, applications using > maemo-launcher show up as "maemo-launcher" in top. The real application > name can be seen with: >cat /proc/PID/cmdline > > If the application is "hildon-desktop" then it's one of the applets > draining the battery. I tried your suggestion (ssh remotely on the idle tablet). Tried to follow CPU usage for a while, then stopped and retried... The 'metalayer-crawler' is, apparently, idle (bad, I'd like a simple solution). :-( The only two processes that are using CPU (both at every check of top) are: 'cx3110x' and 'OMAP McSPI/0' I don't really know what those processes do, nor if they are related to the SSH connection. But they're using CPU... A look at /proc/PID/status says 'SleepAVG' 91% ijust in case this is useful... Again, any hint to further proceeding is appreciated. TIA, gt ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
On Mon, 2008-04-21 at 11:59 +0100, ext Matt Emson wrote: > Giacomo Tufano wrote: > > After installing the last revision of OS2008 (I don't really know why > > I did it, because I had no problem on startup) battery life is very, > > very short. I go from full battery down to automatic shutdown in a > > night... > > One thing comes to mind : metalayer-crawler... This is going to be your > issue. Nokia seem to deny this is a problem, indeed I've read as much on > this list. However, the fact that with the metalayer-crawler running, I > get about the same amount of run time as you, but disabling it, I get a > week in stand by... I'd say Nokia are just plain WRONG! Er... no, I think i've already in public discussions pointed to the crawler as culprit for draining the battery. Probably this points to a deficit in our current testing setup: we usually run verifications with the stock image that can be flashed by users, but probably we should start doing tests also with some loaded MMC. I experienced a probelm when having a loop of symlinks on the internal movinand. -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Next Generation Software Nokia Devices R&D - Helsinki ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
Giacomo Tufano wrote: > After installing the last revision of OS2008 (I don't really know why > I did it, because I had no problem on startup) battery life is very, > very short. I go from full battery down to automatic shutdown in a > night... One thing comes to mind : metalayer-crawler... This is going to be your issue. Nokia seem to deny this is a problem, indeed I've read as much on this list. However, the fact that with the metalayer-crawler running, I get about the same amount of run time as you, but disabling it, I get a week in stand by... I'd say Nokia are just plain WRONG! What will disabling the crawler do? It will stop the media player cataloging your media files. This means you would need to manually open them.. yes it is a pita, but I'd far rather have realistic battery life than my media catalogued. This is also an issue with MPlayer too... the recent MPlayer build also seems to do something similar. If I start it with my internal memory card in, it freezes whilst it calalogues the data, but removing the card, it is fine. Very annoying. At least MPlayer can be closed down easily though. M ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
Hi, ext Tony Green wrote: > On Monday 21 Apr 2008, Giacomo Tufano wrote: >> After installing the last revision of OS2008 (I don't really know why I did >> it, because I had no problem on startup) battery life is very, very short. I >> go from full battery down to automatic shutdown in a night... >> I tried reinstalling the OS, then I tried reinstalling the OS and not >> restore backup (but Favorites, but I suppose this will make no difference). >> No luck. >> In system log I have *many* couple of lines saying: >> EAC mode: play enabled, rec enabled >> followed by >> EAC mode: play enabled, rec disabled >> Repeating every 5-10 seconds and never stopping... >> >> The lines are starting after the MMU and omapdsp init (after ca. 20 seconds >> from log startup) and never ends. > > It certainly sounds like it's doing a lot of work. I've found that some > applications hammer the battery just because they're loaded, even if they > aren't apparently doing anything; the Ogg Vorbis player being a case in > point. If I didn't close it after use in the evening, I'd wake up to a flat > battery in the morning. > > A good way to see what's actually causing the problem is to open a terminal > and run "top" - that will show you the CPU usage of the various processes. One should note that any constant CPU usage, even 0.1%, is enough to ruin use-time. I would recommend running the "top" (or "htop") from SSH so that one isn't confused about the XTerm updates. Also, applications using maemo-launcher show up as "maemo-launcher" in top. The real application name can be seen with: cat /proc/PID/cmdline If the application is "hildon-desktop" then it's one of the applets draining the battery. - Eero ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
Thanks a lot for all this feedback! Points taken, I will process them. Frantisek, I'm specially aware that you raised these topics before and in detail. Extra thanks for your and your good blog post. Some comments: Luca Olivetti wrote: > Well, yes, but a company that buys chipsets in the millions has a lot > more bargaining force with its suppliers than a lone hacker in a > basement, hasn't it? In theory yes, in practice the game doesn't work like this. Bargaining doesn't necessarily help a business ecosystem and a sustainable relationship. Understanding why to opensource is as important as understanding why a company prefers to keep the code closed. Why hardware vendors don't provide open source drivers or good documentation for free? What should change in their business to see a benefit from opensourcing drivers and documenting hardware? Frantisek Dufka wrote: > BTW is the first 2008HE also the last one? Undecided. Is it worth investing more time on this? If so, is it worth investing it keeping the current way or finding a way for the community to take over? The 770 topic itself is important according to user reactions in the Internet but is it out there enough users, developers and "install base" to make this happen? Hal Vaughan wrote: > (The Ubuntu desktop was later than 2004, but still, the point is there > is long term support.) You keep talking about the quite stable desktop architecture. The relevant comparison for this discussion are Linux distros or whatever OS installed in devices fitting in your pocket offering long term support (say 3 years) in 2005 (or today). > This is specious logic and just not applicable. Yes, it works from the > marketing side, but not on the sales side. As someone else pointed > out, this is part of a planned obsolescence strategy. When I buy *any* > computer hardware, I buy with an eye on what I can keep using for years > and not for a couple years. One reason I use Linux is that I don't > like playing the upgrade game. I see no reason why I should spend > money on the next version hardware OR software if what I have is > working for me now. I hope not to get into marketing or sales speech in the following points: 1. From a strictly engineering point of view: look at the desktop hardware in 2003 and now, look at the mobile hardware evolution in the same time frame. The fact is that mobile hardware architectures are far more unstable and this create extra hassle for platform development, leave alone stable APIs. 2. Repeat exercise 1, now looking at top use cases in the desktop and in mobile devices. Most computer use cases are same or similar, just deeper and faster - requiring more memory or clock speed - but that's it. In mobile devices the usage is quite different, getting all kinds of new hardware pieces, APIs and performance issues. 3. The Nokia tablets don't have planned obsolescence. The online/multi/media context and the consumer expectations make them obsolete faster, just like most mobile products. Online video, full AJAX and long etc can't be easily fulfilled with old mobile hardware. You can do some miracles on the software engineering side but at what cost and in exchange of what. 4. If what you have is working for you now then it should just be enough to keep using your device like the day you bought it. However, what happens in most cases is that a new device in a new category (like the 770 was) gets new use cases from the people who bought them than established products. > The last time I looked at Maemo, I found that there were a lot of > programs that I couldn't even think of adding to my N770. http://maemo.org/downloads/OS2006/ reports 249 third party applications for the 770's original OS2006. Note that this is more than the number of applications found there for the N800/N810. > Has the OS changed so much that backporting it to the 770 would be that > hard? Yes, specially if you need to respond to the performance requirements of a sales product. > If so, how do I know that if I buy an 800 or 810 that we won't > be having this same conversation when a 820 or 900 comes out? ifferences between the 770 and the newer devices are the 770 lesson itself, a bigger customer base, a bigger and deeper developer base, more business partners, a better understanding of the open source approach... You are asking about certainty in a fast moving area - we can't give it and I keep asking about real examples of direct competitors who give it. I would also like to have this certainty - or do you think that we enjoy breaking APIs and making life more difficult for users and developers? Then again the fast moving aspect is what makes this industry so interesting nowadays, and this is also why some developers and users are happy to be in the ride. > you've got my money and you don't need to impress me anymore No sane company thinks like this. You become a customer and the objective is to keep you as a happy customer. It is obvious that
Re: Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
On Monday 21 Apr 2008, Giacomo Tufano wrote: > After installing the last revision of OS2008 (I don't really know why I did > it, because I had no problem on startup) battery life is very, very short. I > go from full battery down to automatic shutdown in a night... > I tried reinstalling the OS, then I tried reinstalling the OS and not > restore backup (but Favorites, but I suppose this will make no difference). > No luck. > In system log I have *many* couple of lines saying: > EAC mode: play enabled, rec enabled > followed by > EAC mode: play enabled, rec disabled > Repeating every 5-10 seconds and never stopping... > > The lines are starting after the MMU and omapdsp init (after ca. 20 seconds > from log startup) and never ends. It certainly sounds like it's doing a lot of work. I've found that some applications hammer the battery just because they're loaded, even if they aren't apparently doing anything; the Ogg Vorbis player being a case in point. If I didn't close it after use in the evening, I'd wake up to a flat battery in the morning. A good way to see what's actually causing the problem is to open a terminal and run "top" - that will show you the CPU usage of the various processes. -- Tony Green Ipswich, Suffolk, England http://www.beermad.org.uk http://no2id-ip.web-brewer.co.uk ** This message is digitally signed. If your email client is unable to read digital signatures, you may see an attachment that you cannot open. See http://www.gnupg.org/(en)/documentation/faqs.html for more information. You can validate my PGP key from my website: http://www.beermad.org.uk/ * No Micro$oft products were used in the generation of this communication signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Battery life VERY short on N810, last OS2008...
After installing the last revision of OS2008 (I don't really know why I did it, because I had no problem on startup) battery life is very, very short. I go from full battery down to automatic shutdown in a night... I tried reinstalling the OS, then I tried reinstalling the OS and not restore backup (but Favorites, but I suppose this will make no difference). No luck. In system log I have *many* couple of lines saying: EAC mode: play enabled, rec enabled followed by EAC mode: play enabled, rec disabled Repeating every 5-10 seconds and never stopping... The lines are starting after the MMU and omapdsp init (after ca. 20 seconds from log startup) and never ends. Installed on the N810 are: pidgin, canola, load-applet, maemo-recorder, mauku, mnotify, modest (not autocheking emails), openssh, skype, wizard mounter and xournal. IIRC, the problem began to appear after the OS upgrade. But could be also after maemo-recorder and/or pidgin installation. Or, simply, could be the battery... Any hint for me? TIA, gt ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
