Re: Hacker Edition (was Re: Is OS2006 still supported?)
Hi, ext Mark wrote: On the contrary, this is a perfect example of *exactly* why only Nokia can reasonably deal with this kind of issue. Flash, Skype and etc are third party commercial licensed software. We can perhaps help with drivers and similar system level components needed to get a device running that are obscure to end users. These branded features with consumer impact fall imho in a different ballpark. This is only my opinion, but if the Hacker Edition is about community emancipation then the community needs to find hackable solutions, which at the end means open source solutions. In this case, putting all the expectation on the Nokia-Adobe commercial agreements is a way of deviating the attention from potential alternatives closer to the core of the issue and its solutions i.e. http://opensource.adobe.com/ or http://wiki.gnashdev.org/BuildMatrix We at Nokia rather concentrate on the things that depend directly on us. I hope you understand. Quim ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Hacker Edition (was Re: Is OS2006 still supported?)
Hi, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My personal opinion (and I insist in the personal bit) is that a requisite to continue any Hacker Edition model is to have the community hackers not only involved but driving. Agreed. But Nokia need to do some more work to make this viable. As I outline in my maemo.org: what next? post[1], I'm afraid you can't get this for free. The community *could* maintain the Hacker Editions, but currently the level of work involved would be too great to make it worthwhile. For example (and I've not tried any of this myself, since I no longer have a 770, so please forgive any errors): * How can the community create an easy to install FIASCO image? * How can the community easily recompile large numbers of source packages from Maemo 3.x and 4.x with 770-compatible optimisations? * Are the changes which were necessary to build the existing HEs integrated upstream; is the series of patches applyable and maintainable over a given codebase? * Is it clear which bits of an N800 firmware image need to be extracted and reused wholesale, and which bits of an existing 770 firmware image need to copied verbatim as they are binary blobs? * Can the kernel be updated and still maintain user-expected functionality such as wifi, BT and power management? * If all the above is possible, can the community actually redistribute the images in compliance with the click-through EULA on ITOS firmware downloads, which prohibits redistribution? And: * Which of the 3rd party binary blobs (flashplayer[1], fonts etc) in the newer release would require users to buy extra licensees to legally use it on another product. And for which they can actually do this [1] For example, you need to buy a license for using Flashplayer on an embedded device: Usage of Adobe Web Players is only permitted for supported platforms; usage rights on non-PC devices or embedded systems are not granted by this license. see: http://www.adobe.com/licensing/distribution/ A few years ago the minimum number of licensees was 1000: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS4552853449.html The current Flashplayer and other binary blobs may have similar restrictions. - Eero ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Hacker Edition (was Re: Is OS2006 still supported?)
On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 10:43:59AM +0300, Eero Tamminen wrote: Hi, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My personal opinion (and I insist in the personal bit) is that a requisite to continue any Hacker Edition model is to have the community hackers not only involved but driving. Agreed. But Nokia need to do some more work to make this viable. As I outline in my maemo.org: what next? post[1], I'm afraid you can't get this for free. The community *could* maintain the Hacker Editions, but currently the level of work involved would be too great to make it worthwhile. For example (and I've not tried any of this myself, since I no longer have a 770, so please forgive any errors): * How can the community create an easy to install FIASCO image? * How can the community easily recompile large numbers of source packages from Maemo 3.x and 4.x with 770-compatible optimisations? * Are the changes which were necessary to build the existing HEs integrated upstream; is the series of patches applyable and maintainable over a given codebase? * Is it clear which bits of an N800 firmware image need to be extracted and reused wholesale, and which bits of an existing 770 firmware image need to copied verbatim as they are binary blobs? * Can the kernel be updated and still maintain user-expected functionality such as wifi, BT and power management? * If all the above is possible, can the community actually redistribute the images in compliance with the click-through EULA on ITOS firmware downloads, which prohibits redistribution? And: * Which of the 3rd party binary blobs (flashplayer[1], fonts etc) in the newer release would require users to buy extra licensees to legally use it on another product. And for which they can actually do this [1] For example, you need to buy a license for using Flashplayer on an embedded device: Usage of Adobe Web Players is only permitted for supported platforms; usage rights on non-PC devices or embedded systems are not granted by this license. see: http://www.adobe.com/licensing/distribution/ It's not clear whether the n800 is an embedded device. It's very similar to some of the hard-disk-free laptops that are appearing these days, except for form factor. -- hendrik ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Hacker Edition (was Re: Is OS2006 still supported?)
On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 07:49:54AM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 10:43:59AM +0300, Eero Tamminen wrote: Hi, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My personal opinion (and I insist in the personal bit) is that a requisite to continue any Hacker Edition model is to have the community hackers not only involved but driving. Agreed. But Nokia need to do some more work to make this viable. As I outline in my maemo.org: what next? post[1], I'm afraid you can't get this for free. The community *could* maintain the Hacker Editions, but currently the level of work involved would be too great to make it worthwhile. For example (and I've not tried any of this myself, since I no longer have a 770, so please forgive any errors): * How can the community create an easy to install FIASCO image? * How can the community easily recompile large numbers of source packages from Maemo 3.x and 4.x with 770-compatible optimisations? * Are the changes which were necessary to build the existing HEs integrated upstream; is the series of patches applyable and maintainable over a given codebase? * Is it clear which bits of an N800 firmware image need to be extracted and reused wholesale, and which bits of an existing 770 firmware image need to copied verbatim as they are binary blobs? * Can the kernel be updated and still maintain user-expected functionality such as wifi, BT and power management? * If all the above is possible, can the community actually redistribute the images in compliance with the click-through EULA on ITOS firmware downloads, which prohibits redistribution? And: * Which of the 3rd party binary blobs (flashplayer[1], fonts etc) in the newer release would require users to buy extra licensees to legally use it on another product. And for which they can actually do this [1] For example, you need to buy a license for using Flashplayer on an embedded device: Usage of Adobe Web Players is only permitted for supported platforms; usage rights on non-PC devices or embedded systems are not granted by this license. see: http://www.adobe.com/licensing/distribution/ It's not clear whether the n800 is an embedded device. It's very similar to some of the hard-disk-free laptops that are appearing these days, except for form factor. Although the exact nature of the tablets is certainly up for debate, it looks like Adobe has done a pretty decent job of excluding the tablets. Licensee may not distribute, download or embed the Software on any non-PC device or with any embedded or device version of any operating system. For the avoidance of doubt, and by example only, Licensee may not distribute the Software for use on any (A) mobile devices, set top boxes (STB), handhelds, phones, web pads, tablets and Tablet PCs (that are not running Windows XP or Windows Vista Tablet PC Edition), Going (very briefly, and using w3m to do so) through their licensing information, it looks like they take an inclusive approach to the platforms. If it is not explcitly included, then it is not covered by the license. The above exclusions appear to be examples for mobile products that are not included. That licensing will certainly cause some inconsistency with licensing as convergent devices are released. The thinkpad tablet running full ubuntu comes to mind. I am sure you can download and run the linux flash player, but you may unwittingly be in violation of the license. Another funny quirk of licensing is Apple's recent only for devices with an Apple logo specification. Can you slap a sticker on the device and say it is logo'd? Probably not, but a strict reading of the license language might support that. In any case, this certainly demonstrates we cannot simply blame Nokia as some people seem to want to do. There are many factors to this problem. I have my 770 sitting around. I'm thinking of using Canola to turn it into a web-enabled picture frame. I would love to extend its usefulness with a hacker edition, or I would install something compeltely different on it (android, maybe? Or something from that Poky platform builder?), but it certainly plays second fiddle to my 800. K -- In Vino Veritas http://astroturfgarden.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Hacker Edition (was Re: Is OS2006 still supported?)
On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 7:52 AM, Kevin T. Neely [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Although the exact nature of the tablets is certainly up for debate, it looks like Adobe has done a pretty decent job of excluding the tablets. Licensee may not distribute, download or embed the Software on any non-PC device or with any embedded or device version of any operating system. For the avoidance of doubt, and by example only, Licensee may not distribute the Software for use on any (A) mobile devices, set top boxes (STB), handhelds, phones, web pads, tablets and Tablet PCs (that are not running Windows XP or Windows Vista Tablet PC Edition), Going (very briefly, and using w3m to do so) through their licensing information, it looks like they take an inclusive approach to the platforms. If it is not explcitly included, then it is not covered by the license. The above exclusions appear to be examples for mobile products that are not included. That licensing will certainly cause some inconsistency with licensing as convergent devices are released. The thinkpad tablet running full ubuntu comes to mind. I am sure you can download and run the linux flash player, but you may unwittingly be in violation of the license. Another funny quirk of licensing is Apple's recent only for devices with an Apple logo specification. Can you slap a sticker on the device and say it is logo'd? Probably not, but a strict reading of the license language might support that. In any case, this certainly demonstrates we cannot simply blame Nokia as some people seem to want to do. snip On the contrary, this is a perfect example of *exactly* why only Nokia can reasonably deal with this kind of issue. An individual hacker/developer isn't going to get anywhere with Adobe, but Nokia could certainly solve the problem. They did it for the N8x0, so it shouldn't be an issue to get that extended to the 770. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Hacker Edition (was Re: Is OS2006 still supported?)
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ext Frantisek Dufka wrote: Current way is not ideal from the beginning. Each hacker edition so far was done without any public progress or discussion. So far the community role was mostly asking about progress with no answer, waiting, and later reporting bugs in garage tracker after some release appeared. I agree the setting was not ideal but it was the best we could get in order to deliver a HE in practical terms. The result of the exercise is all in all acceptable, according to the feedback received. I wouldn't say that: each HE may have been acceptable in and of itself, but the people waiting on it have been beholden to Nokia investing in it - which was obviously not in Nokia's strategic interest, or 770 support wouldn't have been dropped in the first place. My personal opinion (and I insist in the personal bit) is that a requisite to continue any Hacker Edition model is to have the community hackers not only involved but driving. Agreed. But Nokia need to do some more work to make this viable. As I outline in my maemo.org: what next? post[1], I'm afraid you can't get this for free. The community *could* maintain the Hacker Editions, but currently the level of work involved would be too great to make it worthwhile. For example (and I've not tried any of this myself, since I no longer have a 770, so please forgive any errors): * How can the community create an easy to install FIASCO image? * How can the community easily recompile large numbers of source packages from Maemo 3.x and 4.x with 770-compatible optimisations? * Are the changes which were necessary to build the existing HEs integrated upstream; is the series of patches applyable and maintainable over a given codebase? * Is it clear which bits of an N800 firmware image need to be extracted and reused wholesale, and which bits of an existing 770 firmware image need to copied verbatim as they are binary blobs? * Can the kernel be updated and still maintain user-expected functionality such as wifi, BT and power management? * If all the above is possible, can the community actually redistribute the images in compliance with the click-through EULA on ITOS firmware downloads, which prohibits redistribution? As I said, I don't know that these are the right questions, however I'd like to think of myself as fairly up-to-speed on maemo hacking and these are the ones that have literally just come off the top of my head without much thought. The community maintaining the Hacker Editions is perfect; especially since post-Diablo there's no guarantee that the N800 will be getting updates (Elephanta etc) and so there may be two devices the community want to support. BUT - and it's a big and important but - I think Nokia need to be more open on how they've built the HEs to date. Otherwise the community will be doing a whole load of work from scratch, which is never particularly high on open source developers' minds (IMHO). What does this mean in practice? We have discussed in several threads. Time to agree on things and document in a more structured manner? May sounds like a good month to draw the lines of a potential common plan. Please drive. We at Nokia will help knowing more about the stones in the way and the possibilities to remove them. First step, I think, is for people to be able to take the os2007on770 project from garage (is there an os2008on770 project?) and build their own firmware images from taking 770 binary blobs, N800 source code and os2007on770 patches. Until this is possible AND easy, the community just won't get involved. Once we're at that point, we can look at how to progress it. Unfortunately, getting there for this first step (AIUI) is entirely under Nokia's control. Perhaps it'd be different if the target device was the (presumably) more popular N800 and more geeks had to scratch that itch, personally. (Please don't consider this a reason to drop N800 support prematurely! ;-)) Hope that helps, Andrew [1] http://www.maemopeople.org/index.php/jaffa/2008/04/20/maemo_org_what_next -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.bleb.org/ ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Hacker Edition (was Re: Is OS2006 still supported?)
ext Frantisek Dufka wrote: Quim Gil wrote: Frantisek Dufka wrote: BTW is the first 2008HE also the last one? Undecided. Is it worth investing more time on this? If so, is it worth investing it keeping the current way or finding a way for the community to take over? Current way is not ideal from the beginning. Each hacker edition so far was done without any public progress or discussion. So far the community role was mostly asking about progress with no answer, waiting, and later reporting bugs in garage tracker after some release appeared. I agree the setting was not ideal but it was the best we could get in order to deliver a HE in practical terms. The result of the exercise is all in all acceptable, according to the feedback received. My personal opinion (and I insist in the personal bit) is that a requisite to continue any Hacker Edition model is to have the community hackers not only involved but driving. What does this mean in practice? We have discussed in several threads. Time to agree on things and document in a more structured manner? May sounds like a good month to draw the lines of a potential common plan. Please drive. We at Nokia will help knowing more about the stones in the way and the possibilities to remove them. Nobody knows where the process will lead, but the process itself looks already interesting enough. Quim ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
