Re: Hacker Edition (was Re: Is OS2006 still supported?)
Hi, ext Mark wrote: On the contrary, this is a perfect example of *exactly* why only Nokia can reasonably deal with this kind of issue. Flash, Skype and etc are third party commercial licensed software. We can perhaps help with drivers and similar system level components needed to get a device running that are obscure to end users. These branded features with consumer impact fall imho in a different ballpark. This is only my opinion, but if the Hacker Edition is about community emancipation then the community needs to find hackable solutions, which at the end means open source solutions. In this case, putting all the expectation on the Nokia-Adobe commercial agreements is a way of deviating the attention from potential alternatives closer to the core of the issue and its solutions i.e. http://opensource.adobe.com/ or http://wiki.gnashdev.org/BuildMatrix We at Nokia rather concentrate on the things that depend directly on us. I hope you understand. Quim ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Hacker Edition (was Re: Is OS2006 still supported?)
Hi, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My personal opinion (and I insist in the personal bit) is that a requisite to continue any Hacker Edition model is to have the community hackers not only involved but driving. Agreed. But Nokia need to do some more work to make this viable. As I outline in my maemo.org: what next? post[1], I'm afraid you can't get this for free. The community *could* maintain the Hacker Editions, but currently the level of work involved would be too great to make it worthwhile. For example (and I've not tried any of this myself, since I no longer have a 770, so please forgive any errors): * How can the community create an easy to install FIASCO image? * How can the community easily recompile large numbers of source packages from Maemo 3.x and 4.x with 770-compatible optimisations? * Are the changes which were necessary to build the existing HEs integrated upstream; is the series of patches applyable and maintainable over a given codebase? * Is it clear which bits of an N800 firmware image need to be extracted and reused wholesale, and which bits of an existing 770 firmware image need to copied verbatim as they are binary blobs? * Can the kernel be updated and still maintain user-expected functionality such as wifi, BT and power management? * If all the above is possible, can the community actually redistribute the images in compliance with the click-through EULA on ITOS firmware downloads, which prohibits redistribution? And: * Which of the 3rd party binary blobs (flashplayer[1], fonts etc) in the newer release would require users to buy extra licensees to legally use it on another product. And for which they can actually do this [1] For example, you need to buy a license for using Flashplayer on an embedded device: Usage of Adobe Web Players is only permitted for supported platforms; usage rights on non-PC devices or embedded systems are not granted by this license. see: http://www.adobe.com/licensing/distribution/ A few years ago the minimum number of licensees was 1000: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS4552853449.html The current Flashplayer and other binary blobs may have similar restrictions. - Eero ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Hacker Edition (was Re: Is OS2006 still supported?)
On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 10:43:59AM +0300, Eero Tamminen wrote: Hi, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My personal opinion (and I insist in the personal bit) is that a requisite to continue any Hacker Edition model is to have the community hackers not only involved but driving. Agreed. But Nokia need to do some more work to make this viable. As I outline in my maemo.org: what next? post[1], I'm afraid you can't get this for free. The community *could* maintain the Hacker Editions, but currently the level of work involved would be too great to make it worthwhile. For example (and I've not tried any of this myself, since I no longer have a 770, so please forgive any errors): * How can the community create an easy to install FIASCO image? * How can the community easily recompile large numbers of source packages from Maemo 3.x and 4.x with 770-compatible optimisations? * Are the changes which were necessary to build the existing HEs integrated upstream; is the series of patches applyable and maintainable over a given codebase? * Is it clear which bits of an N800 firmware image need to be extracted and reused wholesale, and which bits of an existing 770 firmware image need to copied verbatim as they are binary blobs? * Can the kernel be updated and still maintain user-expected functionality such as wifi, BT and power management? * If all the above is possible, can the community actually redistribute the images in compliance with the click-through EULA on ITOS firmware downloads, which prohibits redistribution? And: * Which of the 3rd party binary blobs (flashplayer[1], fonts etc) in the newer release would require users to buy extra licensees to legally use it on another product. And for which they can actually do this [1] For example, you need to buy a license for using Flashplayer on an embedded device: Usage of Adobe Web Players is only permitted for supported platforms; usage rights on non-PC devices or embedded systems are not granted by this license. see: http://www.adobe.com/licensing/distribution/ It's not clear whether the n800 is an embedded device. It's very similar to some of the hard-disk-free laptops that are appearing these days, except for form factor. -- hendrik ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Hacker Edition (was Re: Is OS2006 still supported?)
On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 07:49:54AM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 10:43:59AM +0300, Eero Tamminen wrote: Hi, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My personal opinion (and I insist in the personal bit) is that a requisite to continue any Hacker Edition model is to have the community hackers not only involved but driving. Agreed. But Nokia need to do some more work to make this viable. As I outline in my maemo.org: what next? post[1], I'm afraid you can't get this for free. The community *could* maintain the Hacker Editions, but currently the level of work involved would be too great to make it worthwhile. For example (and I've not tried any of this myself, since I no longer have a 770, so please forgive any errors): * How can the community create an easy to install FIASCO image? * How can the community easily recompile large numbers of source packages from Maemo 3.x and 4.x with 770-compatible optimisations? * Are the changes which were necessary to build the existing HEs integrated upstream; is the series of patches applyable and maintainable over a given codebase? * Is it clear which bits of an N800 firmware image need to be extracted and reused wholesale, and which bits of an existing 770 firmware image need to copied verbatim as they are binary blobs? * Can the kernel be updated and still maintain user-expected functionality such as wifi, BT and power management? * If all the above is possible, can the community actually redistribute the images in compliance with the click-through EULA on ITOS firmware downloads, which prohibits redistribution? And: * Which of the 3rd party binary blobs (flashplayer[1], fonts etc) in the newer release would require users to buy extra licensees to legally use it on another product. And for which they can actually do this [1] For example, you need to buy a license for using Flashplayer on an embedded device: Usage of Adobe Web Players is only permitted for supported platforms; usage rights on non-PC devices or embedded systems are not granted by this license. see: http://www.adobe.com/licensing/distribution/ It's not clear whether the n800 is an embedded device. It's very similar to some of the hard-disk-free laptops that are appearing these days, except for form factor. Although the exact nature of the tablets is certainly up for debate, it looks like Adobe has done a pretty decent job of excluding the tablets. Licensee may not distribute, download or embed the Software on any non-PC device or with any embedded or device version of any operating system. For the avoidance of doubt, and by example only, Licensee may not distribute the Software for use on any (A) mobile devices, set top boxes (STB), handhelds, phones, web pads, tablets and Tablet PCs (that are not running Windows XP or Windows Vista Tablet PC Edition), Going (very briefly, and using w3m to do so) through their licensing information, it looks like they take an inclusive approach to the platforms. If it is not explcitly included, then it is not covered by the license. The above exclusions appear to be examples for mobile products that are not included. That licensing will certainly cause some inconsistency with licensing as convergent devices are released. The thinkpad tablet running full ubuntu comes to mind. I am sure you can download and run the linux flash player, but you may unwittingly be in violation of the license. Another funny quirk of licensing is Apple's recent only for devices with an Apple logo specification. Can you slap a sticker on the device and say it is logo'd? Probably not, but a strict reading of the license language might support that. In any case, this certainly demonstrates we cannot simply blame Nokia as some people seem to want to do. There are many factors to this problem. I have my 770 sitting around. I'm thinking of using Canola to turn it into a web-enabled picture frame. I would love to extend its usefulness with a hacker edition, or I would install something compeltely different on it (android, maybe? Or something from that Poky platform builder?), but it certainly plays second fiddle to my 800. K -- In Vino Veritas http://astroturfgarden.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Hacker Edition (was Re: Is OS2006 still supported?)
On Fri, Apr 25, 2008 at 7:52 AM, Kevin T. Neely [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Although the exact nature of the tablets is certainly up for debate, it looks like Adobe has done a pretty decent job of excluding the tablets. Licensee may not distribute, download or embed the Software on any non-PC device or with any embedded or device version of any operating system. For the avoidance of doubt, and by example only, Licensee may not distribute the Software for use on any (A) mobile devices, set top boxes (STB), handhelds, phones, web pads, tablets and Tablet PCs (that are not running Windows XP or Windows Vista Tablet PC Edition), Going (very briefly, and using w3m to do so) through their licensing information, it looks like they take an inclusive approach to the platforms. If it is not explcitly included, then it is not covered by the license. The above exclusions appear to be examples for mobile products that are not included. That licensing will certainly cause some inconsistency with licensing as convergent devices are released. The thinkpad tablet running full ubuntu comes to mind. I am sure you can download and run the linux flash player, but you may unwittingly be in violation of the license. Another funny quirk of licensing is Apple's recent only for devices with an Apple logo specification. Can you slap a sticker on the device and say it is logo'd? Probably not, but a strict reading of the license language might support that. In any case, this certainly demonstrates we cannot simply blame Nokia as some people seem to want to do. snip On the contrary, this is a perfect example of *exactly* why only Nokia can reasonably deal with this kind of issue. An individual hacker/developer isn't going to get anywhere with Adobe, but Nokia could certainly solve the problem. They did it for the N8x0, so it shouldn't be an issue to get that extended to the 770. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Hacker Edition (was Re: Is OS2006 still supported?)
On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 1:14 PM, Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ext Frantisek Dufka wrote: Current way is not ideal from the beginning. Each hacker edition so far was done without any public progress or discussion. So far the community role was mostly asking about progress with no answer, waiting, and later reporting bugs in garage tracker after some release appeared. I agree the setting was not ideal but it was the best we could get in order to deliver a HE in practical terms. The result of the exercise is all in all acceptable, according to the feedback received. I wouldn't say that: each HE may have been acceptable in and of itself, but the people waiting on it have been beholden to Nokia investing in it - which was obviously not in Nokia's strategic interest, or 770 support wouldn't have been dropped in the first place. My personal opinion (and I insist in the personal bit) is that a requisite to continue any Hacker Edition model is to have the community hackers not only involved but driving. Agreed. But Nokia need to do some more work to make this viable. As I outline in my maemo.org: what next? post[1], I'm afraid you can't get this for free. The community *could* maintain the Hacker Editions, but currently the level of work involved would be too great to make it worthwhile. For example (and I've not tried any of this myself, since I no longer have a 770, so please forgive any errors): * How can the community create an easy to install FIASCO image? * How can the community easily recompile large numbers of source packages from Maemo 3.x and 4.x with 770-compatible optimisations? * Are the changes which were necessary to build the existing HEs integrated upstream; is the series of patches applyable and maintainable over a given codebase? * Is it clear which bits of an N800 firmware image need to be extracted and reused wholesale, and which bits of an existing 770 firmware image need to copied verbatim as they are binary blobs? * Can the kernel be updated and still maintain user-expected functionality such as wifi, BT and power management? * If all the above is possible, can the community actually redistribute the images in compliance with the click-through EULA on ITOS firmware downloads, which prohibits redistribution? As I said, I don't know that these are the right questions, however I'd like to think of myself as fairly up-to-speed on maemo hacking and these are the ones that have literally just come off the top of my head without much thought. The community maintaining the Hacker Editions is perfect; especially since post-Diablo there's no guarantee that the N800 will be getting updates (Elephanta etc) and so there may be two devices the community want to support. BUT - and it's a big and important but - I think Nokia need to be more open on how they've built the HEs to date. Otherwise the community will be doing a whole load of work from scratch, which is never particularly high on open source developers' minds (IMHO). What does this mean in practice? We have discussed in several threads. Time to agree on things and document in a more structured manner? May sounds like a good month to draw the lines of a potential common plan. Please drive. We at Nokia will help knowing more about the stones in the way and the possibilities to remove them. First step, I think, is for people to be able to take the os2007on770 project from garage (is there an os2008on770 project?) and build their own firmware images from taking 770 binary blobs, N800 source code and os2007on770 patches. Until this is possible AND easy, the community just won't get involved. Once we're at that point, we can look at how to progress it. Unfortunately, getting there for this first step (AIUI) is entirely under Nokia's control. Perhaps it'd be different if the target device was the (presumably) more popular N800 and more geeks had to scratch that itch, personally. (Please don't consider this a reason to drop N800 support prematurely! ;-)) Hope that helps, Andrew [1] http://www.maemopeople.org/index.php/jaffa/2008/04/20/maemo_org_what_next -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.bleb.org/ ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Hacker Edition (was Re: Is OS2006 still supported?)
ext Frantisek Dufka wrote: Quim Gil wrote: Frantisek Dufka wrote: BTW is the first 2008HE also the last one? Undecided. Is it worth investing more time on this? If so, is it worth investing it keeping the current way or finding a way for the community to take over? Current way is not ideal from the beginning. Each hacker edition so far was done without any public progress or discussion. So far the community role was mostly asking about progress with no answer, waiting, and later reporting bugs in garage tracker after some release appeared. I agree the setting was not ideal but it was the best we could get in order to deliver a HE in practical terms. The result of the exercise is all in all acceptable, according to the feedback received. My personal opinion (and I insist in the personal bit) is that a requisite to continue any Hacker Edition model is to have the community hackers not only involved but driving. What does this mean in practice? We have discussed in several threads. Time to agree on things and document in a more structured manner? May sounds like a good month to draw the lines of a potential common plan. Please drive. We at Nokia will help knowing more about the stones in the way and the possibilities to remove them. Nobody knows where the process will lead, but the process itself looks already interesting enough. Quim ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
Thanks a lot for all this feedback! Points taken, I will process them. Frantisek, I'm specially aware that you raised these topics before and in detail. Extra thanks for your and your good blog post. Some comments: Luca Olivetti wrote: Well, yes, but a company that buys chipsets in the millions has a lot more bargaining force with its suppliers than a lone hacker in a basement, hasn't it? In theory yes, in practice the game doesn't work like this. Bargaining doesn't necessarily help a business ecosystem and a sustainable relationship. Understanding why to opensource is as important as understanding why a company prefers to keep the code closed. Why hardware vendors don't provide open source drivers or good documentation for free? What should change in their business to see a benefit from opensourcing drivers and documenting hardware? Frantisek Dufka wrote: BTW is the first 2008HE also the last one? Undecided. Is it worth investing more time on this? If so, is it worth investing it keeping the current way or finding a way for the community to take over? The 770 topic itself is important according to user reactions in the Internet but is it out there enough users, developers and install base to make this happen? Hal Vaughan wrote: (The Ubuntu desktop was later than 2004, but still, the point is there is long term support.) You keep talking about the quite stable desktop architecture. The relevant comparison for this discussion are Linux distros or whatever OS installed in devices fitting in your pocket offering long term support (say 3 years) in 2005 (or today). This is specious logic and just not applicable. Yes, it works from the marketing side, but not on the sales side. As someone else pointed out, this is part of a planned obsolescence strategy. When I buy *any* computer hardware, I buy with an eye on what I can keep using for years and not for a couple years. One reason I use Linux is that I don't like playing the upgrade game. I see no reason why I should spend money on the next version hardware OR software if what I have is working for me now. I hope not to get into marketing or sales speech in the following points: 1. From a strictly engineering point of view: look at the desktop hardware in 2003 and now, look at the mobile hardware evolution in the same time frame. The fact is that mobile hardware architectures are far more unstable and this create extra hassle for platform development, leave alone stable APIs. 2. Repeat exercise 1, now looking at top use cases in the desktop and in mobile devices. Most computer use cases are same or similar, just deeper and faster - requiring more memory or clock speed - but that's it. In mobile devices the usage is quite different, getting all kinds of new hardware pieces, APIs and performance issues. 3. The Nokia tablets don't have planned obsolescence. The online/multi/media context and the consumer expectations make them obsolete faster, just like most mobile products. Online video, full AJAX and long etc can't be easily fulfilled with old mobile hardware. You can do some miracles on the software engineering side but at what cost and in exchange of what. 4. If what you have is working for you now then it should just be enough to keep using your device like the day you bought it. However, what happens in most cases is that a new device in a new category (like the 770 was) gets new use cases from the people who bought them than established products. The last time I looked at Maemo, I found that there were a lot of programs that I couldn't even think of adding to my N770. http://maemo.org/downloads/OS2006/ reports 249 third party applications for the 770's original OS2006. Note that this is more than the number of applications found there for the N800/N810. Has the OS changed so much that backporting it to the 770 would be that hard? Yes, specially if you need to respond to the performance requirements of a sales product. If so, how do I know that if I buy an 800 or 810 that we won't be having this same conversation when a 820 or 900 comes out? ifferences between the 770 and the newer devices are the 770 lesson itself, a bigger customer base, a bigger and deeper developer base, more business partners, a better understanding of the open source approach... You are asking about certainty in a fast moving area - we can't give it and I keep asking about real examples of direct competitors who give it. I would also like to have this certainty - or do you think that we enjoy breaking APIs and making life more difficult for users and developers? Then again the fast moving aspect is what makes this industry so interesting nowadays, and this is also why some developers and users are happy to be in the ride. you've got my money and you don't need to impress me anymore No sane company thinks like this. You become a customer and the objective is to keep you as a happy customer. It is obvious that Nokia is not a single
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
En/na Quim Gil ha escrit: Luca Olivetti wrote: Well, yes, but a company that buys chipsets in the millions has a lot more bargaining force with its suppliers than a lone hacker in a basement, hasn't it? In theory yes, in practice the game doesn't work like this. Bargaining doesn't necessarily help a business ecosystem and a sustainable relationship. Right, let's say that nokia, as a VIP customer of TI, is in a better position to explain the importance of disclosing specs (so that free drivers can be produced by the community) than a lone hacker in a basement (to whom TI doesn't even sell directly its wares). Obviously only if nokia does get it itself. I understand they fear disclosing the specs would make copying their wares easier, but other manufacturers don't seem to have a problem with that. Understanding why to opensource is as important as understanding why a company prefers to keep the code closed. Why hardware vendors don't provide open source drivers or good documentation for free? Because they usually can[*] get away with it. [*]could, I hope things are changing What should change in their business to see a benefit from opensourcing drivers and documenting hardware? Well, I think (and I may be wrong) that they'll change only when they see that their customers go shopping elsewhere, favouring more open suppliers. I won't personally buy, e.g., any nvidia stuff, and I'll try to avoid anything with broadcom stuff inside (but it is just me). Bye -- Luca ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
Quim Gil wrote: Frantisek Dufka wrote: BTW is the first 2008HE also the last one? Undecided. Is it worth investing more time on this? If so, is it worth investing it keeping the current way or finding a way for the community to take over? Current way is not ideal from the beginning. Each hacker edition so far was done without any public progress or discussion. So far the community role was mostly asking about progress with no answer, waiting, and later reporting bugs in garage tracker after some release appeared. As example see garage project forum https://garage.maemo.org/forum/forum.php?forum_id=612 or tracker https://garage.maemo.org/tracker/?group_id=164 Mostly there is no response from project maintainers. Same happens when one asks here in the mailing list. The 770 topic itself is important according to user reactions in the Internet but is it out there enough users, developers and install base to make this happen? I don't know. Maybe you have download statistics for hacker editions? Maybe some permanent poll/survey can be done directly on hacker edition download page so nobody will miss it next time? It would be interesting to know how many active users there are and how many of them are developers that are interested in helping with takeover and maintenance. Also this is not only about 770. We are going to have same problem with N8x0 once next generation of (OMAP3 based?) tablets comes (hopefuly soon :-). There are same issues with N8x0 related to closed stuff in initfs, wi-fi driver, dsp etc. Installed base is bigger and we probably can't expect Nokia to suport N8x0 forever so sooner or later we get to the same point of 'hacker editions' for N8x0. If it turns out that it is not worthwhile for 770 due to not enough community people interested, there is high chance it won't be the case with N8x0. And since the problematic closed hardware and software is almost identical for 770 and N8x0, we may as well try to start with 770 now. It can take some time so if 770 dies in obsolescence in the meanwhile, it will be just about time for N8x0 :-) It is understandable Nokia (or any other company) is really bad at maintaining old products. Nokia people are busy working on current and next stuff so old stuff becomes quickly forgotten inside the company. Even if someone from inside wants to help, finds spare time and even decides he is allowed to help (almost unrealistic scenario) he finds that any information for older product (770 today) is gone and nobody knows anything anymore. The sooner company dumps such information with the community the better. Frantisek ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 4:29 AM, Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You keep talking about the quite stable desktop architecture. The relevant comparison for this discussion are Linux distros or whatever OS installed in devices fitting in your pocket offering long term support (say 3 years) in 2005 (or today). Not really true. This is just a weak excuse for continuing current (bad) practice. Desktop hardware is changing just as fast, and just because a subsystem performs the same apparent function doesn't mean the same drivers will work, and in fact the opposite is true. Have you tried finding OS and app support for multi-core cpus? Even 64-bit support is scarce, and it's been around for several years. 1. From a strictly engineering point of view: look at the desktop hardware in 2003 and now, look at the mobile hardware evolution in the same time frame. The fact is that mobile hardware architectures are far more unstable and this create extra hassle for platform development, leave alone stable APIs. Sorry, but this simply isn't true. The majority of the mobile hardware has been around for a long time now, in the same way as desktop hardware. Making changes to desktops is easier not because the hardware is older, but because the hardware is better supported by its manufacturers than mobile hardware. Swapping out a desktop video card is easy because full-featured drivers come with the new card, not because the drivers are the same as for the old card. For example, GSM modems haven't changed any more than desktop subsystems, and neither have WiFi or bluetooth etc. Most of the changes have been in software and form factor. The real difference is that mobile hardware were allowed to get away with being more closed from the beginning, and are fighting tooth and nail to keep it that way. Fortunately, it looks like they may be beginning to lose their advantage. 2. Repeat exercise 1, now looking at top use cases in the desktop and in mobile devices. Most computer use cases are same or similar, just deeper and faster - requiring more memory or clock speed - but that's it. In mobile devices the usage is quite different, getting all kinds of new hardware pieces, APIs and performance issues. See above. 3. The Nokia tablets don't have planned obsolescence. The online/multi/media context and the consumer expectations make them obsolete faster, just like most mobile products. Online video, full AJAX and long etc can't be easily fulfilled with old mobile hardware. You can do some miracles on the software engineering side but at what cost and in exchange of what. *ALL* consumer products have built-in planned obsolescence. The trick is in figuring out whether it's both necessary and acceptable due to changing needs, or artificial and premature due to the manufacturer's desire to force customers into otherwise unnecessary purchases. This is the case in the USA with digital TV. Consumers weren't buying new, extremely expensive hardware fast enough to suit the TV manufacturers, so they finally made analog TVs obsolete. HDTV is great for home theaters, but in most real-world situations it's extreme overkill. (Yeah, like I really need 1080p - or even 720i - for that 20, 12 or 7 TV, never mind hand-held devices...) The other aspect is that the standards deliberately further limit one's ability to view legally purchased content in one's own devices. It's all about making people pay many times for the same thing. 4. If what you have is working for you now then it should just be enough to keep using your device like the day you bought it. However, what happens in most cases is that a new device in a new category (like the 770 was) gets new use cases from the people who bought them than established products. That's just naive. Like I said before, the N800 has the exact functionality that I want, and the N810 has little attraction for me. However, I'm speaking specifically of the hardware *possibilities*, which can only be realized with software, much of which does not ship with the device, and much of which still isn't even available from the community. The potential of the device has barely been tapped much less completely fulfilled. Yes, first-generation devices often are more limited than later generations, because you have to start *somewhere*, and you learn with each generation. Meanwhile, technology marches on and new hardware becomes available. That doesn't mean that the old hardware is no longer useful. The last time I looked at Maemo, I found that there were a lot of programs that I couldn't even think of adding to my N770. http://maemo.org/downloads/OS2006/ reports 249 third party applications for the 770's original OS2006. Note that this is more than the number of applications found there for the N800/N810. The number of apps is not really relevant. What's relevant is the specific applications that individuals want or need. As long as certain
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
Kevin T. Neely schrieb: Always depends on what you need. I loved my 770, recently upgraded to an 800 and love it even more. Me, too (N810 in my case) ;) The 770 sometimes behave strange with the 2006 system (after booting it restarts several times in a row), but the hardware layout is beautiful--even today it is already classic. What I hate most about the 810 is the keyboard slider--but the crowd was crying for it... The built-in keyboard could be useful for some applications, but the inaccessibility of the scroll keys is cumbersome for me using mostly maemo-mapper. -- Karl Eichwalder ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
En/na Quim Gil ha escrit: - The community is empowered to keep over time hardware and software as fit as they wish and are able to. Quite difficult when some critical hardware parts are only usable with binary blobs. Bye -- Luca ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 13:52 +0300, ext Quim Gil wrote: ext Luca Olivetti wrote: En/na Quim Gil ha escrit: - The community is empowered to keep over time hardware and software as fit as they wish and are able to. Quite difficult when some critical hardware parts are only usable with binary blobs. What is really the problem: the binaries or the license to distribute them? Or both? Do these binaries impede the community getting what they want? What do they want, by the way? working wireless lan, battery charging, screen dimming and watchdog pinging would be a good start. -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Next Generation Software Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
Igor Stoppa wrote: On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 13:52 +0300, ext Quim Gil wrote: ext Luca Olivetti wrote: En/na Quim Gil ha escrit: - The community is empowered to keep over time hardware and software as fit as they wish and are able to. Quite difficult when some critical hardware parts are only usable with binary blobs. What is really the problem: the binaries or the license to distribute them? Or both? Do these binaries impede the community getting what they want? What do they want, by the way? working wireless lan, battery charging, screen dimming and watchdog pinging would be a good start. Do you mean that the community can't do a thing unless this functionality is covered by open source packages instead of binaries? Do you mean that Nokia 770 owners can't work on progress themselves until these components are opensourced? What would happen if the community could reuse these binaries in images build and redistributed by themselves? Also, is it feasible to think in open source alternatives developed by the community? One thing is not to do something and another thing is to impede others from doing things. Pointing the real stones in the way would help concentrating the attention on what matters. Quim ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
En/na Quim Gil ha escrit: Do these binaries impede the community getting what they want? What do they want, by the way? working wireless lan, battery charging, screen dimming and watchdog pinging would be a good start. Do you mean that the community can't do a thing unless this functionality is covered by open source packages instead of binaries? The community sure can do many things, but cannot do some *core* things, like replacing the kernel with a newer one (once the binary blobs stops working since the vendor lost interest in providing it), or replacing some nokia applets to control those things. Do you mean that Nokia 770 owners can't work on progress themselves until these components are opensourced? or the hardware is documented What would happen if the community could reuse these binaries in images build and redistributed by themselves? it changes almost nothing if those binaries stop working with a newer kernel/libc/libwhatever Also, is it feasible to think in open source alternatives developed by the community? I think so, but the hardware must be thoroughly documented. Bye -- Luca ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 14:07 +0300, Quim Gil wrote: Igor Stoppa wrote: On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 13:52 +0300, ext Quim Gil wrote: ext Luca Olivetti wrote: En/na Quim Gil ha escrit: - The community is empowered to keep over time hardware and software as fit as they wish and are able to. Quite difficult when some critical hardware parts are only usable with binary blobs. What is really the problem: the binaries or the license to distribute them? Or both? Do these binaries impede the community getting what they want? What do they want, by the way? working wireless lan, battery charging, screen dimming and watchdog pinging would be a good start. Do you mean that the community can't do a thing unless this functionality is covered by open source packages instead of binaries? Do you mean that Nokia 770 owners can't work on progress themselves until these components are opensourced? What would happen if the community could reuse these binaries in images build and redistributed by themselves? Also, is it feasible to think in open source alternatives developed by the community? One thing is not to do something and another thing is to impede others from doing things. Pointing the real stones in the way would help concentrating the attention on what matters. Afaik the kernel module for wlan is binary only, this prevents new kernels from being used. Then binary only key applications introduce dependencies on version of the libraries they are linked against. For example if the community would like to get rid of initfs, then the implementation would not be so strightforward, since initfs binaries are built against a different libc. About the community developing its own version, well, afaik in certain countries it's illegal to reverse engineer sw and anyway we are not really helping in certain sw areas. Look at the kernel code for retu and tahvo: it's quite close to be obfuscated. And we haven't opened the specs for those asics. Sure one can rewrite a piece of userspace code with no close HW interaction, but these functionalities i'm talking about are too close to the HW to be rewritten without actually having the HW specs. Also i'm not sure about how open the API used by dsm and bme is, that i leave to you to check. But to properly allow the community to come up with its own versions of the closed components, we should make both API and related datasheets open. -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Next Generation Software Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
ext Luca Olivetti wrote: En/na Quim Gil ha escrit: Do these binaries impede the community getting what they want? What do they want, by the way? working wireless lan, battery charging, screen dimming and watchdog pinging would be a good start. Do you mean that the community can't do a thing unless this functionality is covered by open source packages instead of binaries? The community sure can do many things, but cannot do some *core* things, like replacing the kernel with a newer one (once the binary blobs stops working since the vendor lost interest in providing it), or replacing some nokia applets to control those things. Alright. Do you think that application developers and regular users of those devices would be stuck if they are stuck to the same kernel and related components - or progress can be done anyway? Dunno, there is something a bit tricky here. In the surface of the discussion it looks like everything gets stuck because A, B, C are binary blobs the community can't handle. A possibility is though that there is not enough community push in the areas where a difference can be made even with the same kernel and binaries. Most users and even developers care about the applications. Couldn't the official OS2006 or one of the HE handle more and better applications just as it is? Do you mean that Nokia 770 owners can't work on progress themselves until these components are opensourced? or the hardware is documented Here we need to distinguish between code and documentation that Nokia could disclose and what belongs actually to third parties. The game gets more complicated. Quim ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
En/na Quim Gil ha escrit: The community sure can do many things, but cannot do some *core* things, like replacing the kernel with a newer one (once the binary blobs stops working since the vendor lost interest in providing it), or replacing some nokia applets to control those things. Alright. Do you think that application developers and regular users of those devices would be stuck if they are stuck to the same kernel and related components - or progress can be done anyway? Dunno, there is something a bit tricky here. In the surface of the discussion it looks like everything gets stuck because A, B, C are binary blobs the community can't handle. A possibility is though that there is not enough community push in the areas where a difference can be made even with the same kernel and binaries. Let's say 50/50? ;-) Yes, progress can be done even if you can't change the kernel, but probably there are less people interested/willing/able to do things than with a more mainstream platform. OTOH if the hardware is working with open drivers, one can always try something different, like, say, installing a standard debian distribution (like people are installing fedora/ubuntu/mandriva on the EEE pc now) and give the device a new lease of life. You can do that now, but since things are changing fast in the linux world, you probably won't be able to do it in a year or two, unless the drivers are in the mainline kernel. Most users and even developers care about the applications. Couldn't the official OS2006 or one of the HE handle more and better applications just as it is? BTW, I have an n800, not a 770, so I don't have this problem right now and cannot reply to this question, but I hope I can give good use to my n800 even if it's not the latest gizmo, as long as it isn't broken. Do you mean that Nokia 770 owners can't work on progress themselves until these components are opensourced? or the hardware is documented Here we need to distinguish between code and documentation that Nokia could disclose and what belongs actually to third parties. The game gets more complicated. Well, yes, but a company that buys chipsets in the millions has a lot more bargaining force with its suppliers than a lone hacker in a basement, hasn't it? Bye -- Luca ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
Quim Gil wrote: Igor Stoppa wrote: On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 13:52 +0300, ext Quim Gil wrote: What is really the problem: the binaries or the license to distribute them? Or both? Both. Licence to redistribute parts of the firmware (binary executables with closed source) is the first blocker. I guess we currently cannot unpack firmware image, rebuild some open pieces, put it back and release such firmware image freely, can we? Would be very useful if we were allowed to do it. Without this users need to flash clean Nokia firmware and then do relatively complex patching on their own to install some community version. Second blocker are the binaries itself. We are talking about (in the order of importance as I see it) - umac.ko binary kernel driver this one is dependent on kernel version and even specific kernel configuration, see https://garage.maemo.org/pipermail/cx3110x-devel/2007-December/06.html Basically we are stuck with old kernel forever if we want to use wi-fi hardware. - pieces in initfs redistribution rights would help but sadly they seem to depend on kernel version too. This it true at least for dsme. Last time I tried, dsme from OS2006 image crashed with 2.6.18 kernel and rebooted device early on boot. The first OS2007 hacker edition tried newer kernel and had some dsme build that worked with 2.6.18 but this image is no longer available (I asked few times to put it back with no result) -pieces in rootfs This only applies for system based on OS200x/Maemo i.e. some sort of Hacker Edition. For details see the table Package License ModificationPatches in http://maemo.org/community/wiki/Os2007On770/ and watch for modifications with Licence column 'Closed' or go over http://maemo.org/community/wiki/os2007hackereditionarchives It is clear community cannot maintain Maemo based system for 770 without internal knowledge. As already said this does not apply to other distributions (Poky, Debian, Mamona) but we are still stuck with ancient kernel, one example - Android now needs 2.6.23 so no luck with 770 :-) Do these binaries impede the community getting what they want? What do they want, by the way? Move freely to newer linux kernels and have all closed hardware still working, Wi-fi is pretty important for Internet Tablet :-) Do you mean that the community can't do a thing unless this functionality is covered by open source packages instead of binaries? many things can be still done but the motivation is low, it is not much fun to invest time in system which is stuck in the past forever What would happen if the community could reuse these binaries in images build and redistributed by themselves? IMO this is really worth of solving. Go for it if you can. Also, is it feasible to think in open source alternatives developed by the community? Yes eventually, if people feel they are not stuck with closed hardware with no future. Pointing the real stones in the way would help concentrating the attention on what matters. Basically I think there are two issues 1. allowing redistribution of binaries from firmware (i.e. making firmware customizations) 2. making possible to move to newer linux kernels by either opening sources of wi-fi driver and stuff in initfs or finding someone with enough rights and knowledge to maintain it for us as needed BTW This issue was already discussed many times, some pointers with additional details (we can discuss them again if needed): http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/maemo/developers/21031?#21031 http://lwn.net/Articles/229838/ and discussion below article starting here http://lwn.net/Articles/230162/ Frantisek ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
Quim Gil wrote: Most users and even developers care about the applications. Couldn't the official OS2006 or one of the HE handle more and better applications just as it is? Well in theory everything is posible. Reality is a bit harder. One example - ask Canola guys about issues with version for 770. I think they mentioned old kernel and old system to be serious pain. Quick ITT search gives me http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=147269#post147269 http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=142716#post142716 BTW is the first 2008HE also the last one? I consider current 2008 to be a bit bloated even for N8x0, maybe another try with Diablo version would give better results on 770 too? First OS2007 version for N800 (and HE based on it) was also slower than next ones. Looks like there are big improvements regarding speed and memory consumption in current mobile Firefox and hopefully also Microb engine coming in Diablo. This would make sense to have on 770. Frantisek ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: [lists] Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
On Friday 18 April 2008 13:23:13 Quim Gil wrote: ext Luca Olivetti wrote: The community sure can do many things, but cannot do some *core* things, like replacing the kernel with a newer one (once the binary blobs stops working since the vendor lost interest in providing it), or replacing some nokia applets to control those things. Alright. Do you think that application developers and regular users of those devices would be stuck if they are stuck to the same kernel and related components - or progress can be done anyway? One of the big problems with the older releases is that they are using old versions of some key libraries (glib is the biggest issue for me but there are others such as libxml). Increasingly I find that the latest versions of applications assume a more up to date environment and take considerable effort to back-port. That is one reason why I have stopped doing mistral builds (although I have not removed the packages from the repository) and will probably soon stop doing gregale builds. Now, these libraries probably do not require a new kernel. But replacing them with newer versions may have impact on system components, including non-free components. At a minimum there will be considerable testing required. Graham ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Hal Vaughan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 17 April 2008, Ryan Abel wrote: Frédéric Mantegazza wrote: As a new user of Nokia 770, I feel a little disapointed. Such are the pitfalls of purchasing an almost 3 year old unsupported product. ;) Which tells me right off if I buy the latest, I can count on it being unsupported in 3 years. That's a pretty good reason for me to go elsewhere. At least with a desktop, I can use Ubuntu and upgrade with each new release. I'm serious about this. I have an N770 and was planning on using it as part of a carputer interface and there are other things I was going to be adding along the way, but over the past year, I've asked myself if I want to stick with this product because I see little effort for backporting. Once the new toy comes out, the old ones are essentially abandon. While that happens with things like Windows, one reason I stick with Linux on most things is because most Linux stuff doesn't play the, Spend more money now to upgrade or be left behind game. Hal I bought my N800 well after the N810 came out, not because it was a lot cheaper but because I like the hardware a lot better. The only thing that N810 has that could attract me is the built-in gps, and from what I've heard its sensitivity could be a lot better. The bluetooth gps receiver I got cost less than a quarter of the difference in price, is incredibly sensitive, and being external is actually a good thing in that it can be placed for optimum reception without affecting the handling or usability of the tablet. I couldn't care less about the slide-out keyboard (for me the on-screen keyboard is just as functional), the N800 has twice the storage (and uses full-size SD cards instead of the much less versatile mini-SD that the N810 has), the N800's camera can be pointed either front or back (or in between), and everything else is pretty much the same. In short, newer doesn't necessarily mean better and often is the opposite. If I have the exact hardware that I want, why should I have to worry about the device being unsupported in such a short period of time? My laptop is 8 years old, and it would still be meeting my needs if the backlight hadn't died last year, and the replacement part for it is unavailable. (The panel itself is fine, it's just a little backlight driver board that died.) Now it's effectively just another desktop, since I have to connect it to an external monitory in order to use it. What we have here is planned obsolescence. The only way to get people to buy new products they don't need is to *make* them need the new stuff by withdrawing support for the older devices. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 12:04 -0600, ext Mark wrote: What we have here is planned obsolescence. The only way to get people to buy new products they don't need is to *make* them need the new stuff by withdrawing support for the older devices. No, that's plain wrong. Being an insider, since 770 creation, i can agree that the whole thing could have been handled a lot better (and I think Quim can still somehow fix it, if he is backed up by enough people requesting features), but your speculations are wrong. -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Next Generation Software Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
Note: Part of this is venting, but it's stuff I do feel I have to say. Note what I say in the last paragraph and don't take the rest personally. I've been in and out of this group and until now didn't realize that Nokia was actively involved here and that, in itself, impresses me. So take my other points in the context of me also being glad to know Nokia is actively involved here. On Friday 18 April 2008, Quim Gil wrote: Hi, To the originator of this thread: Nokia launched the 770 and release the OS2006 - and we are responsible of that. But Python and many other libraries and applications compatible with OS2006 were contributed by third parties, and all the merit goes for them. ext lakestevensdental wrote: As a point of comparison between the internet tablets and microlaptops Thanks for your detailed comparison. Direct comparisons in real world help a lot understanding (all of us) what is going on. As much as I understand the feelings of the 770 owners, I also think that many (not all!) comparisons we are seeing are rather simplistic and better for an ideal world than the real one we live in. Nokia produces devices fitting in pockets. Let's compare devices in this category if we really want to have a fruitful discussion. That is true, but some points apply to any product out there. Nowadays: what customers in the consumer electronics or the computer industry expect continuous support and (free/paid) software updates for devices fitting in their pockets, launched in 2005 or before? Let's look at the real examples and let's see what can we learn from them. I do. Maybe I can't get it on something expensive like Windows, but I can keep updating my desktop and servers I bought in 2004 and I've been continuing to do so with both Ubuntu and Debian since I set them up. (The Ubuntu desktop was later than 2004, but still, the point is there is long term support.) You can compare OS2006 in the 770 with your distro of choice in your PC because both are Linux-based, but this comparison won't help you understanding the complexities behind. Platform development on top of a PC (consolidated x86 architecture and fat hardware resources) is radically different than developing on top of a tablet (new and far from consolidated silicon and hardware configurations in devices fitting in your pocket and lasting several hours without recharging). Add to this that the final product is in the price range the tablets are, and that the software updates are expected to be free as in beer. What products beat the tablets and specifically the 770 in this sense? Let's discuss those. Remember the first laptop you bought. Did you expect it to stay fit for how long? And your second laptop? It is now that things start getting decent in the lifetime of portable computers. For the devices fitting in your pocket it will take a little longer. The fact that users want full Internet (think the Internet 3 years ago and now in terms of hardware requirements), full multimedia, amazing UI and what not doesn't really help making mobile devices stay young for long. This is specious logic and just not applicable. Yes, it works from the marketing side, but not on the sales side. As someone else pointed out, this is part of a planned obsolescence strategy. When I buy *any* computer hardware, I buy with an eye on what I can keep using for years and not for a couple years. One reason I use Linux is that I don't like playing the upgrade game. I see no reason why I should spend money on the next version hardware OR software if what I have is working for me now. Nokia, or Microsoft, or some other company may want me to, but I don't want to and I resent any time a company tries to trap me into the upgrade pattern. After going from Windows 95 to 98 to Win2k, then having to get WinXP to test my software for my customers, I found my decision, around 2000, to switch over to Linux has really paid off for me. Now I do see the need to push the limits and create new products with new features, but as a consumer, when I see a product be forced into obsolescence quickly by any company, I give *serious* thought to whether I'm going to buy from them again. If I find I can build a desktop system that will last me for 5 years or I can buy something that looks great, but it's from a company that I've seen make products obsolete in 2-3 years, then I'll gladly pay more for something that won't face forced obsolescence. The last time I looked at Maemo, I found that there were a lot of programs that I couldn't even think of adding to my N770. In some cases it might be because they use new features of the newer models. In that case I understand it, but one issue is that I'm using one OS version, at this point, I can't even remember the name, and that most programs need a later one. Yes, I can use an HE, and I do a LOT of hacking on my own -- but not on anything that I want to be
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
Mark wrote: If I have the exact hardware that I want, why should I have to worry about the device being unsupported in such a short period of time? My laptop is 8 years old, and it would still be meeting my needs if the backlight hadn't died last year, and the replacement part for it is unavailable. (The panel itself is fine, it's just a little backlight driver board that died.) Now it's effectively just another desktop, since I have to connect it to an external monitory in order to use it. What we have here is planned obsolescence. The only way to get people to buy new products they don't need is to *make* them need the new stuff by withdrawing support for the older devices. Agreed -- it's an abuse of the copyright/patent system, IMHO. A lot of this problem would likely go away if unsupported/abandoned/'obsolete' software, OSs hardware required the open sourcing all pertinent code and information necessary for the open market to support the device. The way it is, Microsoft's continuing habit of abandoning perfectly good OS code support (and drivers) with each OS is probably makes Microsoft amongst the greatest contributors to pollution in the world with all sorts of perfectly decent computer hardware devices becoming obsolete before their time and subsequently filling junk piles around the world far before their time. Always, Fred C ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
Frantisek Dufka wrote: Last time I tried, dsme from OS2006 image crashed with 2.6.18 kernel and rebooted device early on boot. Correction, just tried Poky linux 3.1 http://pokylinux.org/ on my 770 and fortunately this is not so bad. They have 2.6.18 kernel running on 770 and it boots fine and dsme runs. That's great. Frantisek ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Is OS2006 still supported?
As a new user of Nokia 770, I feel a little disapointed. I'm trying to install python (I only need 2.4), but I can't find it. And in general, repositories for mistral provide applications with dependencies which do not exist anymore for mistral (libreadline4, libncurses...), but only for bora. And even for that, it is very difficult to find all dependencies, spread all over the net. Why OS2006 packages are not available anymore? -- Frédéric http://www.gbiloba.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
Frédéric Mantegazza wrote: As a new user of Nokia 770, I feel a little disapointed. Such are the pitfalls of purchasing an almost 3 year old unsupported product. ;) I'm trying to install python (I only need 2.4), but I can't find it. And in general, repositories for mistral provide applications with dependencies which do not exist anymore for mistral (libreadline4, libncurses...), but only for bora. And even for that, it is very difficult to find all dependencies, spread all over the net. Have you considered trying OS2007HE or OS2008HE? ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
On jeudi 17 avril 2008, Ryan Abel wrote: Frédéric Mantegazza wrote: As a new user of Nokia 770, I feel a little disapointed. Such are the pitfalls of purchasing an almost 3 year old unsupported product. ;) It is not *that* old! And why remove packages for mistral distro? I still have computers based on debian 'sarge', and I'm still able to install packages using 'apt-get install'... Packages for 770 are not so large that people need to remove them from their hard drive to put newer versions ;o) Have you considered trying OS2007HE or OS2008HE? Well, I wanted to avoid installing non-standard stuff, as I plan to use this Nokia for a free photographic project; I would like non-users able to easily install my program... Hard to ask them to install a new firmeware... -- Frédéric http://www.gbiloba.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
En/na Ryan Abel ha escrit: Frédéric Mantegazza wrote: As a new user of Nokia 770, I feel a little disapointed. Such are the pitfalls of purchasing an almost 3 year old unsupported product. ;) I'm trying to install python (I only need 2.4), but I can't find it. And in general, repositories for mistral provide applications with dependencies which do not exist anymore for mistral (libreadline4, libncurses...), but only for bora. And even for that, it is very difficult to find all dependencies, spread all over the net. Have you considered trying OS2007HE or OS2008HE? I didn't know OS2008HE for 770. Does it run fine ? Mine runs with OS2007HE 4.2008.7-1 but I am not available to install wirestools as kismet :-( ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
On Thursday 17 April 2008, Ryan Abel wrote: Frédéric Mantegazza wrote: As a new user of Nokia 770, I feel a little disapointed. Such are the pitfalls of purchasing an almost 3 year old unsupported product. ;) Which tells me right off if I buy the latest, I can count on it being unsupported in 3 years. That's a pretty good reason for me to go elsewhere. At least with a desktop, I can use Ubuntu and upgrade with each new release. I'm serious about this. I have an N770 and was planning on using it as part of a carputer interface and there are other things I was going to be adding along the way, but over the past year, I've asked myself if I want to stick with this product because I see little effort for backporting. Once the new toy comes out, the old ones are essentially abandon. While that happens with things like Windows, one reason I stick with Linux on most things is because most Linux stuff doesn't play the, Spend more money now to upgrade or be left behind game. Hal ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi. On Thu, 17 Apr 2008 20:56:11 +0200 Frédéric Mantegazza [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a new user of Nokia 770, I feel a little disapointed. I'm trying to install python (I only need 2.4), but I can't find it. And in general, repositories for mistral provide applications with dependencies which do not exist anymore for mistral (libreadline4, libncurses...), but only for bora. And even for that, it is very difficult to find all dependencies, spread all over the net. Why OS2006 packages are not available anymore? Add the following repository to your Application Manager: Address: http://repository.maemo.org Distro: gregale or mistral or scirocco (the version what you use) Components: free Install python, and deactive the previous repository, it's from the sdk but libncurses and libreadline4 are in this repository and not in the extras. In these times it was more complicated to install python than now. - -- Daniel Martin Yerga http://yerga.net -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFIB6w7cnvB1T3xmfMRAsL6AJ9CYdYEm7mCNRXPiXhfmUqr89juxwCfUFTh lJD2YkBfaVAOL/TVr2PdK94= =rV2k -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
Hal Vaughan wrote: On Thursday 17 April 2008, Ryan Abel wrote: Frédéric Mantegazza wrote: As a new user of Nokia 770, I feel a little disapointed. Such are the pitfalls of purchasing an almost 3 year old unsupported product. ;) Which tells me right off if I buy the latest, I can count on it being unsupported in 3 years. That's a pretty good reason for me to go elsewhere. At least with a desktop, I can use Ubuntu and upgrade with each new release. I'm serious about this. I have an N770 and was planning on using it as part of a carputer interface and there are other things I was going to be adding along the way, but over the past year, I've asked myself if I want to stick with this product because I see little effort for backporting. Once the new toy comes out, the old ones are essentially abandon. While that happens with things like Windows, one reason I stick with Linux on most things is because most Linux stuff doesn't play the, Spend more money now to upgrade or be left behind game. Hal ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users Do note that the leaving behind of the N770 already provoked a very large consumer reaction and Nokia has admitted mea culpa so to speak and is at least saying it will act differently. So far, it seems to be the case, so they may have learned their lesson here - you just came a bit late to the 770 getting upset at Nokia party. :) Ryan -- Ryan Pavlik www.cleardefinition.com #282 + (442) - [X] A programmer started to cuss Because getting to sleep was a fuss As he lay there in bed Looping 'round in his head was: while(!asleep()) sheep++; ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
On Apr 17, 2008, at 4:00 PM, Hal Vaughan wrote: On Thursday 17 April 2008, Ryan Abel wrote: Frédéric Mantegazza wrote: As a new user of Nokia 770, I feel a little disapointed. Such are the pitfalls of purchasing an almost 3 year old unsupported product. ;) Which tells me right off if I buy the latest, I can count on it being unsupported in 3 years. Nokia has already admitted they made a mistake with the 770, and has done a lot to rectify it with the Hacker Editions. Support for the N8x0 isn't going anywhere anytime soon. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
IMHO, the market for current tablet like items seems stable. Nokias N8xx seems to be leading the parade. Buying into older technology just before it's abandoned is never fun... As a point of comparison between the internet tablets and microlaptops -- Recently, I bought an ASUS EEE PC (microlaptop) for my daughter to use taking notes at college without having to lug her full size laptop around. Cost is the same (or less than n810). I've had a couple weeks to play with it while I get everything working (like setting up her email, loading some documents, pictures, etc). * The EEE is a very nice micro laptop with keyboard touchpad -- It's quite a bit larger than the n8xx tablets -- the keyboard is small but definitely very usable. * The native Linux Xandros Desktop OS really looks a lot like Windows XP with full versions of Tbird, Firefox and Open Office running just fine. * Fine print -- Microsoft has apparently been working with the Xandros Lunix folks for some reason... * It has VGA out, plus 3 full size USB, network port, SDHC card reader. No HD, although it does recognize USB HDs MP3. * The Celeron Processor clock speed is 900Mhz with options for faster and/or more energy efficient options coming soon. * It doesn't have Bluetooth -- it may or may not recognize a Bluetooth dongle... Haven't checked. * It's wifi seems fine, but it's not as quickly adaptive as my n800. * ASUS has just (3/31/08) released its first SDK for developers so it's software base is a bit behind the curve compared to apps for the N8xx series. The software/support base for the EEE Linux is thin by comparison to the N8xx. That could easily change in the near future. * The EEE can also be loaded up (bogged down) with Windoze XP if you want, but there's currently a 4 or 8G limit to internal memory plus another 16G for a SDHC card, so there's limits on what you can install and operate in XP. How support for XP goes in the coming years is up for debate given MS is supposedly moving to Vista -- I wouldn't expect this generation of microlaptops to ever support Vista... They're not fast enough or big enough in memory. * New units with 9 screens are on the near horizon. I'd expect more memory too... * The current 7 screen (800x460 like the n8xx) is much easier to view than the n8xx with same resolution. Rumors are a touch screen might be offered -- don't hold your breath on that... * The EEE plays internet TV and video just fine (so long as it's in a format it can use). * The few games the EEE have look good. It's got a decent graphics processor so more games could be offered as development moves along. * It has a sparse, but effective, application manager like the N8xx. You can install, update and uninstall stuff quickly from it. * Battery life depends upon if you're using wifi or not. 3 hours seems possible without, 2 with. Everything (but the fan) is solid state. It's a modestly decent lapwarmer -- hence the fan... There appears to be a significant wave of look alike linux based microlaptops posed hit the market -- all seem to be likely to have the same issue of lack of a fully developed user software base. The numerous flavors of Linux may haunt compatibility and development for a while, especially since most seem to have their own variant of Linux they offer. Having both to play with for a while, I tend to gravitate to the N800 while sitting in bed or carrying in my pocket or traveling. I like the n8xx touchscreen. It's also got better games and puzzles to play with. The EEE is great for poking around the web and answering email at the kitchen table or couch. It's much too big to carry in a pocket, but might be fine in a modest purse or backpack. However, if you're looking for a small portable unit that offers more power than the n8xx, it could be what you're looking for. Always, Fred C Hal Vaughan wrote: On Thursday 17 April 2008, Ryan Abel wrote: Frédéric Mantegazza wrote: As a new user of Nokia 770, I feel a little disapointed. Such are the pitfalls of purchasing an almost 3 year old unsupported product. ;) Which tells me right off if I buy the latest, I can count on it being unsupported in 3 years. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
Ryan Abel wrote: On Apr 17, 2008, at 4:00 PM, Hal Vaughan wrote: On Thursday 17 April 2008, Ryan Abel wrote: Frédéric Mantegazza wrote: As a new user of Nokia 770, I feel a little disapointed. Such are the pitfalls of purchasing an almost 3 year old unsupported product. ;) Which tells me right off if I buy the latest, I can count on it being unsupported in 3 years. Nokia has already admitted they made a mistake with the 770, and has done a lot to rectify it with the Hacker Editions. Support for the N8x0 isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Yeh, like maybe another 3 years. I have a 770 running 2.2006.39.14 (Sirocco). I don't do much with it except to run Canola which turns it into a really good mp3 player. Question: Is there any advantage for me to upgrade the OS to the last that will run on this machine which I guess is the Hacker Edition? Comment: If I were to upgrade to something newer I doubt it would be an 810. The new ultra-portables with 9 inch screens are becoming available. They cost only a little more and will run a regular Linux distro. Don ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users -- Ubuntu -- It Just Works ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 06:39:10PM -0400, Don Birdsall wrote: Question: Is there any advantage for me to upgrade the OS to the last that will run on this machine which I guess is the Hacker Edition? Canola was not trivial for me to install on OS2007HE. I got it working with some excellent help from this mailing list, but it was more involved than you might be looking for. Comment: If I were to upgrade to something newer I doubt it would be an 810. The new ultra-portables with 9 inch screens are becoming available. They cost only a little more and will run a regular Linux distro. Always depends on what you need. I loved my 770, recently upgraded to an 800 and love it even more. There is a lot of room for improvement, sure, but there are great apps available for it, it's more stable, and the added speed makes it morereliable to task switch with multiple apps open. K -- In Vino Veritas http://astroturfgarden.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Is OS2006 still supported?
Hi, To the originator of this thread: Nokia launched the 770 and release the OS2006 - and we are responsible of that. But Python and many other libraries and applications compatible with OS2006 were contributed by third parties, and all the merit goes for them. ext lakestevensdental wrote: As a point of comparison between the internet tablets and microlaptops Thanks for your detailed comparison. Direct comparisons in real world help a lot understanding (all of us) what is going on. As much as I understand the feelings of the 770 owners, I also think that many (not all!) comparisons we are seeing are rather simplistic and better for an ideal world than the real one we live in. Nokia produces devices fitting in pockets. Let's compare devices in this category if we really want to have a fruitful discussion. Nowadays: what customers in the consumer electronics or the computer industry expect continuous support and (free/paid) software updates for devices fitting in their pockets, launched in 2005 or before? Let's look at the real examples and let's see what can we learn from them. You can compare OS2006 in the 770 with your distro of choice in your PC because both are Linux-based, but this comparison won't help you understanding the complexities behind. Platform development on top of a PC (consolidated x86 architecture and fat hardware resources) is radically different than developing on top of a tablet (new and far from consolidated silicon and hardware configurations in devices fitting in your pocket and lasting several hours without recharging). Add to this that the final product is in the price range the tablets are, and that the software updates are expected to be free as in beer. What products beat the tablets and specifically the 770 in this sense? Let's discuss those. Remember the first laptop you bought. Did you expect it to stay fit for how long? And your second laptop? It is now that things start getting decent in the lifetime of portable computers. For the devices fitting in your pocket it will take a little longer. The fact that users want full Internet (think the Internet 3 years ago and now in terms of hardware requirements), full multimedia, amazing UI and what not doesn't really help making mobile devices stay young for long. Yes, on the software side you can do a lot, but thing also that in the real world we live, doing a lot on task A implies doing less on tasks B, C, D. Bad if you leave your focus on the 770, bad if you don't beat the new products launched by the competition? We need to find the balance - and we need to make a sustainable (my managers would say profitable) business out of it. This balance probably goes in the direction of - Let Nokia and third parties push innovation in new products as fast and successful as possible. Otherwise the rest will be pointless. - Nokia makes sure all of its customers (users, developers) get a good service for the time and money they invest. - The community is empowered to keep over time hardware and software as fit as they wish and are able to. We have discussed some times the latter point, which I believe is the most crucial to most of the people complaining. We haven't forgot the previous discussions and we are open to new ideas. Quim Gil ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
