Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
Theodore Tso wrote: I'm not speaking for Nokia, but I've talked to a number of folks from Nokia, and the problem is that their suppliers are not willing to release specifications under any kinda of NDA that would allow them, or someone else, to release open source device drivers. If they did this, they would either be late to market by 6-12 months, which is an eternity, or they would not be able to use the latest hardware which has a combination of the latest functionality (i.e., 3G support, GPS, WIFI, etc. all on one chipset) that competitors such as Apple and iPhone might use. Fine by me. I don't want bleeding-edge hardware. I'm happy to have what was state of the art last year, with open specifications and software. I very much doubt that Android or other Linux mobile solutions will be much different. Android in particular tries to make it such that application vendors don't even know that they are running on a Linux OS; what they see is a restricted Java environment. Sounds good to me. Solves issues with security and stability, and lets me develop in a modern programming language I already know rather than a crufty old one I'd rather never see again. Gives me access to state of the art development environments. Plus, I don't have to care about setting up cross-compiling for a different CPU architecture. Compared to what you can get, even ignoring the carrier subsidies, that's a pretty anemic feature set. The iPhone has a pretty anemic feature set too, so it's not going to be a success, right? It's just like in the airline business, where people will kvetch about comfort, and lack of hot food in economy class, but where time and time again, it has been proven that when it comes down to deciding whether to fly with airline X or airline Y, the vast majority of customers overwhelmingly go with whatever is cheapest. Have you looked at how well the US airline industry is doing? Price wars only worked up to a certain point. Once the experience got bad enough, people stopped flying no matter how cheap it was. Personally, I paid extra to fly with a European airline last time I had to travel internationally, just so I could get decent service. I don't see the European airlines going out of business, so there must be a viable market. Ditto the iPhone. Clearly people will buy a phone with an anemic feature set and year-old technology if it offers a compelling user experience and applications they actually want. It's the applications that really let the N8x0 down, in my view, not the lack of bleeding-edge proprietary hardware. mathew ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
If people are willing to use Open Moko, despite its relative disadvantage in terms of battery lifetime, and bleeding edge features --- that's a tradeoff that Linux geeks can make, if they want. I suspect though that for commercial success, it will be hard for Open Moko to complete in the general population who will always find cool features like GPS, 3G, Wifi and UMA support, etc. very attractive. I speak for my geek pride, more geeks and more hackers, any project like Open Moko will only get better. I remember the days when running Linux on older laptops was a more compatible choice for hackers, and now even the latest greatest hardware runs Linux out of the box, this is just to mention now and then of PC market basically. There will be more examples and there are more stories to be made. I hope you are not mistaken, perhaps its Nokia who needs these geeks hackers not those geeks hackers needs Nokia. I do hope Meamo community at large understands that, and I wish them luck. ~Kevin ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
I totally agree with you, and all Please remember Open Source is kinda of licensing and it is the way to license the work , not to work and create for single reason which is making it Open Source Please remember as much as Open Source is needed Close Source is Needed How , why, ... ? ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 1:32 AM, Theodore Tso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 01:01:51PM -0600, Mark wrote: Nokia has the resources to develop its own chips, which it could easily keep open. That would solve the problems for everybody (meaning consumers, developers and Nokia). Many companies can *afford* to build and design new chips from scratch, yes --- but unfortunately companies are not charities. The question is can you create a credible business plan where a single company (and I don't care whether it is Nokia, Lenovoa, Dell, or anyone else) or maybe a consortium of companies, produces a new multi-function wireless chip that does 3G, Wifi, and everything else, and at the very least breaks even compared with the cost of buying that same component from Broadcom, or whatever supplier they might happen to have. Making more open design hardware is exactly the problem Nokia needs to solve instead of solving GPL. Remember, the mobile business is a highly competitive one, and if it costs an extra $20 per handset, that company will be hugely disadvantaged when they try to get carriers to pick up their phones (at least in the US market, where 99% of cell phones are sold through carriers). And if you think someone is going to put down a huge capital investment just to create an open chipset for the relatively small internet tablet market, and do it in a way that won't lose vast amounts of money, you're *really* smoking something pretty good. You really give me some reason to strong my belief that Nokia has no guts to say Linux can be a better preposition ever than Sybian is. But they're not doing it out of fear of backlash from the closed community. Heaven help the company that sticks its neck out and breaks the industry wide open for *real* innovation... I don't think it has anything to do with that at all. It's about a creating valid business plan where it at least breaks even, especially since the number of people that would actually pay extra for open device drivers is very small. I happen to be one of them, but I *know* that I am in the minority. Open drivers for an open design will probably even cost nothing to Nokia , I really hope so. It's just like in the airline business, where people will kvetch about comfort, and lack of hot food in economy class, but where time and time again, it has been proven that when it comes down to deciding whether to fly with airline X or airline Y, the vast majority of customers overwhelmingly go with whatever is cheapest. If you think you're so smart, and can figure a way to make money while breaking the industry wide open, I can certainly introduce you to a few VC's (and VC's are really good at shredding six business plans before breakfast --- well, at least during multiple breakfast meetings. :-) Let there be a non Nokia dependent Maemo community, who needs VCs ? Let there be fair models of business and true service values; Serve well or get slapped, works best for real FOSS companies customers. ~kevin ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
Hi, Jean-Christian de Rivaz wrote: What you say is absolutely right. But it seem that Nokia is actually the number one on this planet regarding the mobile phone market, so there are probably not talking about small quantity... In spite of a large amount of resources, a huge area available, and a large population, the US imports stuff. In spite of having tens of thousands of employees who use paper, IBM has not yet set up any paper mills. In a more macroscopic view, I can't understand why Nokia buy a software company like Trolltech to get a technology and still rely on externals chip manufacturers for there very really central technology of almost all there business. Because Nokia is a handset design software company, not a hardware company. Cheers, Dave. -- maemo.org docsmaster Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
Hi, ext Steve Brown wrote: It's kind of sad that Jaaksi feels he needs to teach open source developers something, instead of learn from them. What is sad is the way all this thing has evolved from the original presentation in Handsets World and Jaaksi's answer to a journalist, quoted out of context and the rest you have seen. I have just uploaded the slides, see the EDITED part at the end of http://flors.wordpress.com/2008/06/16/nokia-the-unknown-open-source-contributor/ The last slide says Open source community and Nokia - We need to learn from each other. Note that this presentation was done to an audience totally immersed in the mobile industry and probably not very familiar with open source. He was explaining to this audience the good things Nokia was learning from the open source community and the important role this community plays in the development of Maemo and the Internet Tablets. Anyway, let's keep working. -- Quim Gil marketing manager, open source Maemo Software @ Nokia ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
To me open source means freedom. To me freedom means right to think as i think but it also means right to think differently than i do. It is too common that when someone talks about freedom, he only means right to think as he thinks. As consumer and Open source developer, i am against DRM or locked devices but as same time i must admit that these consumers that rather buy $20 locked and crippled device and buy DRM content has also right to do so. That means that i must admit that Ari Jaaksi is right, when we bring Linux and Open source to main stream market, the potential audience is no longer only us, Open Source community but also main stream consumers. As consumer, i vote with my valet, i don't never buy DRM content or in don't buy crippled devices, it is my freedom. There is still big markets, hundred of millions consumers that has different opinion and rather buy subsidised devices or DRM content. As major player in mobile device market, Nokia can't just let it out from this big market segment by saying no. I think that Nokia offers real freedom when it sells devices also as non sim locked ones, you are not forced by Nokia to buy sim locked devices or you are not forced buy DRM content. Kate ext Aniello Del Sorbo wrote: This has been caught by a slashdotter too and the comments we're on the very same tone. I think that what Ari wanted too say is that Nokia and the industry in general is not YET ready to work the way the open source community wants them to. This is understandable. Their point is to make money and they were just doing this. Recently, we, the open source community, showed them that there is some business in our words. And you know, industry has been always as slow in reacting to this matter as fast in reacting to money. I read his wording this way: we want to listen and we are listening and actually even doing steps towards those open source rules. But the community asks too much and too fast. We listen and act. You do the same. It's fair. -- Aniello On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 6:49 PM, tanguyr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: source: http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jun2008/gb20080612_288518.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_global+business the killer quote: Jaaksi admitted that concepts like these [DRM, intellectual property rights, SIM locks and subsidised business models]go against the open-source philosophy, but said they were necessary components of the current mobile industry. Why do we need closed vehicles? We do, he said. Some of these things harm the industry but they're here [as things stand]. These are touchy, emotional issues but this dialogue is very much needed. As an industry, we plan to use open-source technologies but we are not yet ready to play by the rules; but this needs to work the other way round too. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
What you say is absolutely right. But it seem that Nokia is actually the If you are interested in the Nokia Chipset strategy just go to http://www.nokia.com/link?cid=EDITORIAL_335440 and read/listen why Nokia thinks that introducing a licensing and multisourcing model (...) will allow Nokia to focus on its core competencies in chipset development, leverage external innovation, and foster competition in the chipset industry. -- Quim Gil marketing manager, open source Maemo Software @ Nokia ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
Quim Gil a écrit : What you say is absolutely right. But it seem that Nokia is actually the If you are interested in the Nokia Chipset strategy just go to http://www.nokia.com/link?cid=EDITORIAL_335440 and read/listen why Nokia thinks that introducing a licensing and multisourcing model (...) will allow Nokia to focus on its core competencies in chipset development, leverage external innovation, and foster competition in the chipset industry. Interesting, thanks for the link. By licensing the technology, Nokia assert his core business. Sound like a good move. Sadly, licensing a technology do not imply that the programming software specification of the final chip from the outsource will be open enough to write a open source driver for it. -- Jean-Christian de Rivaz ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 9:28 AM, David Dyer-Bennet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mark wrote: On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Theodore Tso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you really think it is OBVIOUS that it is always cheaper to make your own and never to buy from another company's product? Because it *is* obvious. The fundamental assumption is that the given company has the size and resources to manufacture chips. Give that capability, yes, it is *always* cheaper for them to manufacture their own. Wow; this demonstrates ignorance of a depth I had not believed existed in the universe. I'm impressed. Right back at 'cha! Let's go through the reasons why it's terribly expensive to manufacture custom-designed chips in relatively small quantities: Are the chips you are currently using in the tablets custom-designed chips in relatively small quantities? No! As I said before, if you design the chips properly, they could be used not only in your own cell phones, but also be sold to other manufacturers for their phones, PDAs, UMPCs, etc. We're not talking about a niche market here. You really need to read the other person's statements before going off half-cocked. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 11:39 AM, Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You really need to read the other person's statements before going off half-cocked. Isn't irony a wonderful thing? ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
Mark wrote: On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Theodore Tso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you really think it is OBVIOUS that it is always cheaper to make your own and never to buy from another company's product? Because it *is* obvious. The fundamental assumption is that the given company has the size and resources to manufacture chips. Give that capability, yes, it is *always* cheaper for them to manufacture their own. Wow; this demonstrates ignorance of a depth I had not believed existed in the universe. I'm impressed. Let's go through the reasons why it's terribly expensive to manufacture custom-designed chips in relatively small quantities: You can't keep the people and support infrastructure working at capacity, which raises the cost for what you get. You probably need about the same number of really *top* (expensive) people to make things work as somebody doing 10 times as much designing and fabricating (at least, there's a minimum number; a big chip designer may need *more* than the minimum, but even your small company just designing a few needs that minimum). It takes time to set up a fab for a particular chip; that's down-time when it's non-productive. So short runs have added costs. If you don't need enough chips built to keep your fab working full-time, that's even more expensive (you paid the same price for it as the guy who *does* work his full-time). There won't be the support tools to support design and debug with your custom chips (unless you build them yourself). The design and setup costs have to be amortized across however many chips you build; the fewer chips you build, the more each has to contribute towards those costs. I'm sure I'm missing some things; while I've worked around semi-custom VLSI design (I wrote behavioral modeling code and developed test patterns), I've never worked near a fab or around full-blown custom chip design. But generally, most of this comes under economies of scale, a very well-known concept in economics. You should look into it. -- David Dyer-Bennet, [EMAIL PROTECTED]; http://dd-b.net/ Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/ Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/ Dragaera: http://dragaera.info ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
David Dyer-Bennet a écrit : Mark wrote: On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Theodore Tso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you really think it is OBVIOUS that it is always cheaper to make your own and never to buy from another company's product? Because it *is* obvious. The fundamental assumption is that the given company has the size and resources to manufacture chips. Give that capability, yes, it is *always* cheaper for them to manufacture their own. Wow; this demonstrates ignorance of a depth I had not believed existed in the universe. I'm impressed. Let's go through the reasons why it's terribly expensive to manufacture custom-designed chips in relatively small quantities: What you say is absolutely right. But it seem that Nokia is actually the number one on this planet regarding the mobile phone market, so there are probably not talking about small quantity... In a more macroscopic view, I can't understand why Nokia buy a software company like Trolltech to get a technology and still rely on externals chip manufacturers for there very really central technology of almost all there business. If Nokia manage to get enough control of a chip maker, like there did for Symbian for example, there can open enough the needed interfaces to let there OSS strategy grow. My personally think that maybe the solution is a chip that have two parts. One part is a on the edge proprietary wireless processing (BT, 3G, WiFi, etc..). The other part is a OSS well supported general processing. The parts must communicate via a well documented interface of course. The split between the two parts can be different, I just give a big picture. The main point is that the proprietary part must not depend on any Open Source software, and this last one must see only well documented interfaces to do all the programmers reasonably wants to do. Best Regards, -- Jean-Christian de Rivaz ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
Read this http://news.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/0,100091,39432956,00.htm Samer On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 8:29 PM, Jean-Christian de Rivaz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: David Dyer-Bennet a écrit : Mark wrote: On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Theodore Tso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you really think it is OBVIOUS that it is always cheaper to make your own and never to buy from another company's product? Because it *is* obvious. The fundamental assumption is that the given company has the size and resources to manufacture chips. Give that capability, yes, it is *always* cheaper for them to manufacture their own. Wow; this demonstrates ignorance of a depth I had not believed existed in the universe. I'm impressed. Let's go through the reasons why it's terribly expensive to manufacture custom-designed chips in relatively small quantities: What you say is absolutely right. But it seem that Nokia is actually the number one on this planet regarding the mobile phone market, so there are probably not talking about small quantity... In a more macroscopic view, I can't understand why Nokia buy a software company like Trolltech to get a technology and still rely on externals chip manufacturers for there very really central technology of almost all there business. If Nokia manage to get enough control of a chip maker, like there did for Symbian for example, there can open enough the needed interfaces to let there OSS strategy grow. My personally think that maybe the solution is a chip that have two parts. One part is a on the edge proprietary wireless processing (BT, 3G, WiFi, etc..). The other part is a OSS well supported general processing. The parts must communicate via a well documented interface of course. The split between the two parts can be different, I just give a big picture. The main point is that the proprietary part must not depend on any Open Source software, and this last one must see only well documented interfaces to do all the programmers reasonably wants to do. Best Regards, -- Jean-Christian de Rivaz ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users -- __ http://geek2live.blogspot.com/ You pick the level of your suffering yourself - Budha- Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.-Abraham Lincoln -Live Free or Die-Kernel The Canine- A man can fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame someone else.-- John Burroughs - Without music, life would be a mistake.- Nietzsche - He who reigns within himself and rules his passions, desires, and fears is more than a king.-- John Milton - The best portion of a good man's life is the little, nameless,unremembered acts of kindness and love.-- William Wordsworth (1770-1850) English poet -- - The higher type of man clings to virtue, the lower type of man clings to material comfort. The higher type of man cherishes justice, the lower type of man cherishes the hope of favors to be received.-- Confucius (551-479 BC) Chinese Philosopher ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
En/na Theodore Tso ha escrit: I could have a working system (including, by the way, using binary drivers), I wasn't throwing rotten tomatoes and screaming at laptop vendors who chose to use closed hardware which didn't support Linux. Neither do I: I *bought* an Internet Tablet after all. Still, I think they can improve the opennes of the hardware. I chose to avoid buying Sony laptops, since they were the worst in terms of proprietary hardware with Windows-only drivers, but I accepted why they made the business decisions that they did. As I accept the reason many cheap router manufacturer use broadcom wares, but I also know that their main selling point isn't opennes, and I personally try to avoid broadcom stuff. [...] Just three years ago, I used used binary video drivers from ATI as the only way I could get the needed functionality for my laptop. Now, I used and recommend to others using the laptops that contain Intel video chipsets, because of Intel's release of open source, high quality video drivers. I'd say the same here. Three years ago there was no usable alternative to ati/nvidia, now there's intel. And there's atheros, ralink, intel producing free (firmware/hal notwithstanding, but those don't really limit my freedom to switch os or kernel version) wifi drivers. So things are moving in the right direction, but in some areas change may come quicker than others. The trick is to helpfully engage with vendors and help them work with their suppliers --- and not just throw rocks. There must be a bad cop to play bad cop, good cop ;-) (just kidding). The former is usually for more productive than the latter. You catch very few flies with vinegar Well, that's actually wrong ;-) http://xkcd.com/357/ Bye -- Luca ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
Hi, tanguyr wrote: source: http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jun2008/gb20080612_288518.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_global+business the killer quote: Jaaksi admitted that concepts like these [DRM, intellectual property rights, SIM locks and subsidised business models]go against the open-source philosophy, but said they were necessary components of the current mobile industry. Why do we need closed vehicles? We do, he said. Some of these things harm the industry but they're here [as things stand]. These are touchy, emotional issues but this dialogue is very much needed. As an industry, *we plan to use open-source technologies but we are not yet ready to play by the rules; but this needs to work the other way round too*. I see no problem with this position. Linux doesn't need Nokia, Nokia doesn't need Linux. If Nokia uses Linux it'll be because it suits their needs and satisfies their constraints, or because they believe it can do so in the near future with their help. When I am using my cellphone, I'm mostly unaware of the OS. Every Linux phone out there has a bunch of closed components, including, usually, the GUI. Through maemo and GNOME Mobile, I'm happy to try and understand the needs of mobile device makers and contribute to making a software stack that suits those needs, without compromising my standards on freedom. But I'm not going to insist that someone use software which doesn't cover their constraints. Currently, free software does not meet all needs. In the mobile industry, if you're a handset manufacturer, a big part of your constraints is here's the hardware we're putting in the phone. Here are the regulatory constraints we have. Here are the conditions under which I can have this hardware on this date at this price. And a completely free software solution does not meet those constraints. I'm happy to see companies like Nokia invest in RD to create a free software stack that moves closer to fitting their needs. It's a lot better than companies like Motorola, shipping a Linux kernel with an in-house stack on top, or even Android, the we swear, it'll be free soon javaish-based proprietary stack. Cheers, Dave. -- maemo.org docsmaster Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
Hi, It would be good if we all start to help making maemo a better place to live, helping the wiki, helping develop software and improving documentation, instead of just shouting against Nokia's business and people. As a community, let's give the example. Sometimes it's easier to talk then to do. We have a lot of problems to solve @ maemo and Quim Gil is hardly trying to find volunteers to help on wiki maintenance and everything else. I liked Ted's point of view: http://tytso.livejournal.com/57153.html and as a famous open source developer and enthusiast, I'll hear what he has to say =) BR, -- --- Blog: http://labs.morpheuz.eng.br/blog/ PGP: 0xDBEEAAC3 @ wwwkeys.pgp.net ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008, Graham Cobb wrote: On Friday 13 June 2008 21:28:09 Steve Brown wrote: We/I want to buy, and work on open devices. It's really as simple as that. I would like to do that as well. But I don't see any such devices being created. (I would also like a flying car). Android most certainly is not that. And no GSM device which was completely open would get type approval to be legal in the EU. If you do not want to use or contribute to a device which is not completely open that is, of course, your choice. I, on the other hand, am willing to work on a device which provides an open application environment and an SDK -- that is the key thing for me. US-style application locks (which, fortunately, have always been rare in the GSM world) are what I really object to. Of course, you are entitled to think that I am selling out a point of principle. And I may think that you are being unrealistic. Agreeing to differ is perfectly fine -- but please do not speak for me. And you know, it's fine if Nokia doesn't want to take the risk of being one of the first, but it just makes me sad to see how misinformed Jaaksi is to think he can reason us out of what we want and how he doesn't see the potential of what open source can bring Nokia (and he's the head of open-source operations!!). Now he just wants to get and not give, but I can understand that, it just seems to be the viewpoint of someone who doesn't know alot about how this open source thingy works, that's all. Maybe Nokia should have someone in that position who understands F/OSS... I think he/they do understand it quite well. F/OSS is a broad community with many different views, including yours, and mine (and many others). Much of the community (although not you, and many others who share your views) are willing to contribute without complete openness. My personal rules (which define what I will or will not do, but which I do not try to impose on others) is that I am willing to tolerate the notion of commercial subsidy with some restrictions: I tolerate sim-locks, which allow the toys I want to be made available to me for less cost in exchange for a reasonable restriction (like not using it on another operator for 18 months). In practice, I accept it if it seems like a fair deal: I insist that the device is also available not locked, for a reasonable price and that the discount for the sim lock is considerable and the lock for a limited time. In those circumstances I think sim-locks are perfectly reasonable. On the other hand, I do not tolerate DRM in its current form because it is not a fair deal. Typically the content being protected by DRM is not available for a reasonable price without DRM, the DRM does not provide me with a considerable discount, and the DRM restrictions do not expire after a reasonable time. My objection to DRM is not one of principle: it is one of fairness. I would be interested in engaging in a dialogue with Nokia to see if they would espouse some similar sorts of fairness principles, in exchange for some of us accepting the things he talks about and contributing to devices which include them. I'm just glad that, in the meantime, I'm going to have open alternatives. What open alternatives? That is a serious question -- I personally know of no manufacturer making devices which are more open than the Internet Tablets and would be interested to know what is/will be available. Graham Folks, I believe that Graham is right, while the detractors have one excellent point they seem unaware of: The driving force behind the N8x0 tablet and FOSS use by Nokia is Ari Jaaksi. I am pretty sure that without him there would be no Nokia tablet. I'm also pretty sure that Ari gets the FOSS model. If we make his efforts and results look less credible to the suits, Ari will be applying his talents somewhere else in Nokia. To make sure it doesn't happen we might help by making the tablet irresistible to all kinds of buyers, not just Linux hobbyists. Think what we can do to make N8x0 sell to corporate users. I am rolling a bunch of them out as signature capture devices used by my company's truck drivers. It's a small beginning at about 50, but it is a beginning. I'll probably use them as signature pads at the counters too, but for that I need to find time to actually write programs instead of just quick scripting. The best way to get Nokia to make really open devices is to show them that they can make money that way. That's my $0.02. julius ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
En/na Theodore Tso ha escrit: On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 01:31:51AM +0200, Luca Olivetti wrote: In the case of the wifi chip you could buy it from atheros or ralink (and I'm sure there are other), that at least have open drivers, and don't base their business model on linux without giving anything back like broadcom. As I mentioned earlier, the real challenge in the mobile space is getting chipsets which combine multiple functions (cell phone services, GPS, wifi, 3G, etc.) into a single chipset, using very low power consumption so devices can be both (a) lightweight, and (b) have a decent battery lifespan. I was just pointing out that broadcom isn't the only game in town, in fact from a free software advocate point of view is the worst choice: they can sell cheap devices (I'm thinking adsl routers here, not portable devices) thanks to Linux and the only thing we get out of them are binary blobs that only work with one kernel. There *are* other vendors out there that are cooperative with free software developers and they aren't selling bad, expensive, poorly integrated, power hogs products. Given that most of them offer more or less the same features at more or less the same price point, choosing the most closed of them gives a clear signal than you don't care about freedom. It's not that hard to make something that is the size and weight of an OpenMoko device, I'm happy with the size and weight of an internet tablet (in fact I don't think you can do it any smaller without compromising screen readability) but most people like their cell phones light and thin, and for 99.99% of the population out there, this plus must be low cost tends to trump considerations such as open drivers. 90% of the population is using windows, and ten years ago it was probably 100%, thank God neither Linus nor RMS cared about those numbers (and neither did you). If you'd like to try to convince the general population that they should ditch their Blackberries and RZOR's for Open Moko's, please don't let me stop you Actually I don't especially like open moko (not that I like crapberries and rzors): it's a phone and I don't particularly like. That's why I bought an Internet Tablet instead. Now, the pandora looks interesting Bye -- Luca ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 09:45:27PM +0200, Luca Olivetti wrote: but most people like their cell phones light and thin, and for 99.99% of the population out there, this plus must be low cost tends to trump considerations such as open drivers. 90% of the population is using windows, and ten years ago it was probably 100%, thank God neither Linus nor RMS cared about those numbers (and neither did you). 15 years ago I was giving presentations promoting Linux using Microsoft Powerpoint, because the Linux presentation tools were cr*p. And while I chose to use Linux, and accepted various sacrifices to so I could have a working system (including, by the way, using binary drivers), I wasn't throwing rotten tomatoes and screaming at laptop vendors who chose to use closed hardware which didn't support Linux. I chose to avoid buying Sony laptops, since they were the worst in terms of proprietary hardware with Windows-only drivers, but I accepted why they made the business decisions that they did. Look, engineering is the art of the possible, and this includes understanding the business constraints. There are things we can do to help make life easier for companies that choose to be FOSS friendly, including patronizing companies that are doing what they can. That means understanding what the best that they can do might be at a particular point in time. Back in 1993, not only was I completely supportive of people who used Powerpoint as a presentation tool, I did it myself. In 2008, I try to gently convert people to use Open Office, even if they choose to use a Windows or MacOS X desktop. Just three years ago, I used used binary video drivers from ATI as the only way I could get the needed functionality for my laptop. Now, I used and recommend to others using the laptops that contain Intel video chipsets, because of Intel's release of open source, high quality video drivers. So things are moving in the right direction, but in some areas change may come quicker than others. The trick is to helpfully engage with vendors and help them work with their suppliers --- and not just throw rocks. The former is usually for more productive than the latter. You catch very few flies with vinegar - Ted ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
I'm new here and new to the tablet and have read some very thoughtful dialog over the past few days. As a linux user, not a technical one mind you, and owner of a tablet for about a month, I find the only shortcoming of my N810, is the lack of an 'office suite'. If you could get open office in a simple download from a repository to be able to open and sometimes edit the various documents one shares or receives, the tablet would be complete for me as a consumer and something I could highly recommend! Truth be told I got this as a gift and have seen in the forums open office is possible with some effort. Not being a technical individual, I've considered buying a second tablet for that type of experimentation, as I'm unwilling to risk bricking this one. Also had I not received this gift, its unlikely I would have sought out this device, or even known about it otherwise. With that, great job Nokia and all involved and i look forward to more programs and next generations of the OS and software. -Jeff ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
source: http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jun2008/gb20080612_288518.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_global+business the killer quote: Jaaksi admitted that concepts like these [DRM, intellectual property rights, SIM locks and subsidised business models]go against the open-source philosophy, but said they were necessary components of the current mobile industry. Why do we need closed vehicles? We do, he said. Some of these things harm the industry but they're here [as things stand]. These are touchy, emotional issues but this dialogue is very much needed. As an industry, *we plan to use open-source technologies but we are not yet ready to play by the rules; but this needs to work the other way round too *. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
This has been caught by a slashdotter too and the comments we're on the very same tone. I think that what Ari wanted too say is that Nokia and the industry in general is not YET ready to work the way the open source community wants them to. This is understandable. Their point is to make money and they were just doing this. Recently, we, the open source community, showed them that there is some business in our words. And you know, industry has been always as slow in reacting to this matter as fast in reacting to money. I read his wording this way: we want to listen and we are listening and actually even doing steps towards those open source rules. But the community asks too much and too fast. We listen and act. You do the same. It's fair. -- Aniello On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 6:49 PM, tanguyr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: source: http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jun2008/gb20080612_288518.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_global+business the killer quote: Jaaksi admitted that concepts like these [DRM, intellectual property rights, SIM locks and subsidised business models]go against the open-source philosophy, but said they were necessary components of the current mobile industry. Why do we need closed vehicles? We do, he said. Some of these things harm the industry but they're here [as things stand]. These are touchy, emotional issues but this dialogue is very much needed. As an industry, we plan to use open-source technologies but we are not yet ready to play by the rules; but this needs to work the other way round too. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users -- anidel ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
With the Android shipping next year, I wonder what effect it will have on the debate? Since Apple announced it's SDK, I have noticed a large drop in the number of applications being developed, as well as updates being published. I think this is an indicator that the market, or a subset of the market, wants an open model and is growing tired of not truly owning their phones. One other thing I have noticed, I've only had my n810 for 4 days now, and owned a iPhone since November, is the development community working on Nokia products is much more mature, ready to exploit future hardware releases, understands Open Source, and not afraid to have their ideas and products modified or enhanced. The market will change, and that change, just as with Linux, will be driven by the consumer. -Denis On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Aniello Del Sorbo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This has been caught by a slashdotter too and the comments we're on the very same tone. I think that what Ari wanted too say is that Nokia and the industry in general is not YET ready to work the way the open source community wants them to. This is understandable. Their point is to make money and they were just doing this. Recently, we, the open source community, showed them that there is some business in our words. And you know, industry has been always as slow in reacting to this matter as fast in reacting to money. I read his wording this way: we want to listen and we are listening and actually even doing steps towards those open source rules. But the community asks too much and too fast. We listen and act. You do the same. It's fair. -- Aniello On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 6:49 PM, tanguyr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: source: http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jun2008/gb20080612_288518.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_global+business the killer quote: Jaaksi admitted that concepts like these [DRM, intellectual property rights, SIM locks and subsidised business models]go against the open-source philosophy, but said they were necessary components of the current mobile industry. Why do we need closed vehicles? We do, he said. Some of these things harm the industry but they're here [as things stand]. These are touchy, emotional issues but this dialogue is very much needed. As an industry, we plan to use open-source technologies but we are not yet ready to play by the rules; but this needs to work the other way round too. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users -- anidel ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
Aniello Del Sorbo wrote: I think that what Ari wanted too say is that Nokia and the industry in general is not YET ready to work the way the open source community wants them to. Well, goodbye then Nokia. We'll all switch to OpenMoko or Android. I read his wording this way: we want to listen and we are listening and actually even doing steps towards those open source rules. But the community asks too much and too fast. We listen and act. You do the same. I don't buy DRM-crippled media and won't buy a phone I can't unlock and do what I want with. If that means I never buy another Nokia phone, so be it. I loved my Nokia back in the 90s, but the company really lost its way, producing a succession of really lousy fashion phone designs that were totally impractical, and failing to realize that quad band and Bluetooth were de rigeur for a business phone. I thought the N series showed that they had gotten a clue, but this stupid comment--by their VP of open source, no less--really has me wondering. mathew ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 12:47:25PM -0500, mathew wrote: Aniello Del Sorbo wrote: I think that what Ari wanted too say is that Nokia and the industry in general is not YET ready to work the way the open source community wants them to. Well, goodbye then Nokia. We'll all switch to OpenMoko or Android. I'm not speaking for Nokia, but I've talked to a number of folks from Nokia, and the problem is that their suppliers are not willing to release specifications under any kinda of NDA that would allow them, or someone else, to release open source device drivers. If they did this, they would either be late to market by 6-12 months, which is an eternity, or they would not be able to use the latest hardware which has a combination of the latest functionality (i.e., 3G support, GPS, WIFI, etc. all on one chipset) that competitors such as Apple and iPhone might use. I very much doubt that Android or other Linux mobile solutions will be much different. Android in particular tries to make it such that application vendors don't even know that they are running on a Linux OS; what they see is a restricted Java environment. If people are willing to use Open Moko, despite its relative disadvantage in terms of battery lifetime, and bleeding edge features --- that's a tradeoff that Linux geeks can make, if they want. I suspect though that for commercial success, it will be hard for Open Moko to complete in the general population who will always find cool features like GPS, 3G, Wifi and UMA support, etc. very attractive. Regards, - Ted ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
I'm with you: i put a grand and a half of nokia products in my pocket every day (n95 8gb + n810 + bluetooth gps, headset, headphones, etc) and nokia can kiss me and my gadget budget goodbye unless i get what i want: a phone that behaves like my laptop, on which i can install any app i want (open or closed source, free or commericial), for which i can write real first class apps (not python scripts) which i can distribute to thers without having to jump through stupid signing hoops. I'm not a hippy: i'm willing to PAY for this, and i'm sick and tired of marketroids telling me why i can't have it (the carriers won't allow it. the manufacturers won't allow it. it's for your own good, just bend over and spread 'em). The n810 had me fooled - i dreamed of a world where nokia realized the futility of fighting the iPhone by slapping a layer of touch-screen lipstick on the symbian pig. Guess that pig's more of a cash cow than i thought. On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 7:47 PM, mathew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Aniello Del Sorbo wrote: I think that what Ari wanted too say is that Nokia and the industry in general is not YET ready to work the way the open source community wants them to. Well, goodbye then Nokia. We'll all switch to OpenMoko or Android. I read his wording this way: we want to listen and we are listening and actually even doing steps towards those open source rules. But the community asks too much and too fast. We listen and act. You do the same. I don't buy DRM-crippled media and won't buy a phone I can't unlock and do what I want with. If that means I never buy another Nokia phone, so be it. I loved my Nokia back in the 90s, but the company really lost its way, producing a succession of really lousy fashion phone designs that were totally impractical, and failing to realize that quad band and Bluetooth were de rigeur for a business phone. I thought the N series showed that they had gotten a clue, but this stupid comment--by their VP of open source, no less--really has me wondering. mathew ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
Ari reply: http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/ -- Aniello On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 8:15 PM, tanguyr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm with you: i put a grand and a half of nokia products in my pocket every day (n95 8gb + n810 + bluetooth gps, headset, headphones, etc) and nokia can kiss me and my gadget budget goodbye unless i get what i want: a phone that behaves like my laptop, on which i can install any app i want (open or closed source, free or commericial), for which i can write real first class apps (not python scripts) which i can distribute to thers without having to jump through stupid signing hoops. I'm not a hippy: i'm willing to PAY for this, and i'm sick and tired of marketroids telling me why i can't have it (the carriers won't allow it. the manufacturers won't allow it. it's for your own good, just bend over and spread 'em). The n810 had me fooled - i dreamed of a world where nokia realized the futility of fighting the iPhone by slapping a layer of touch-screen lipstick on the symbian pig. Guess that pig's more of a cash cow than i thought. On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 7:47 PM, mathew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Aniello Del Sorbo wrote: I think that what Ari wanted too say is that Nokia and the industry in general is not YET ready to work the way the open source community wants them to. Well, goodbye then Nokia. We'll all switch to OpenMoko or Android. I read his wording this way: we want to listen and we are listening and actually even doing steps towards those open source rules. But the community asks too much and too fast. We listen and act. You do the same. I don't buy DRM-crippled media and won't buy a phone I can't unlock and do what I want with. If that means I never buy another Nokia phone, so be it. I loved my Nokia back in the 90s, but the company really lost its way, producing a succession of really lousy fashion phone designs that were totally impractical, and failing to realize that quad band and Bluetooth were de rigeur for a business phone. I thought the N series showed that they had gotten a clue, but this stupid comment--by their VP of open source, no less--really has me wondering. mathew ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users -- anidel ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
Nokia has the resources to develop its own chips, which it could easily keep open. That would solve the problems for everybody (meaning consumers, developers and Nokia). But they're not doing it out of fear of backlash from the closed community. Heaven help the company that sticks its neck out and breaks the industry wide open for *real* innovation... That goes double for FIC and Openmoko. Mark On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 12:24 PM, Aniello Del Sorbo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ari reply: http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/ -- Aniello On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 8:15 PM, tanguyr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm with you: i put a grand and a half of nokia products in my pocket every day (n95 8gb + n810 + bluetooth gps, headset, headphones, etc) and nokia can kiss me and my gadget budget goodbye unless i get what i want: a phone that behaves like my laptop, on which i can install any app i want (open or closed source, free or commericial), for which i can write real first class apps (not python scripts) which i can distribute to thers without having to jump through stupid signing hoops. I'm not a hippy: i'm willing to PAY for this, and i'm sick and tired of marketroids telling me why i can't have it (the carriers won't allow it. the manufacturers won't allow it. it's for your own good, just bend over and spread 'em). The n810 had me fooled - i dreamed of a world where nokia realized the futility of fighting the iPhone by slapping a layer of touch-screen lipstick on the symbian pig. Guess that pig's more of a cash cow than i thought. On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 7:47 PM, mathew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Aniello Del Sorbo wrote: I think that what Ari wanted too say is that Nokia and the industry in general is not YET ready to work the way the open source community wants them to. Well, goodbye then Nokia. We'll all switch to OpenMoko or Android. I read his wording this way: we want to listen and we are listening and actually even doing steps towards those open source rules. But the community asks too much and too fast. We listen and act. You do the same. I don't buy DRM-crippled media and won't buy a phone I can't unlock and do what I want with. If that means I never buy another Nokia phone, so be it. I loved my Nokia back in the 90s, but the company really lost its way, producing a succession of really lousy fashion phone designs that were totally impractical, and failing to realize that quad band and Bluetooth were de rigeur for a business phone. I thought the N series showed that they had gotten a clue, but this stupid comment--by their VP of open source, no less--really has me wondering. mathew -- anidel ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
I don't understand. We always ask companies to become open source and they had almost never listened. Now that Nokia is moving towards open source, we shout at them. What's the reasoning ? By the way, Ari was just talking to you. You say that they can make their own chip...that's exactly what he wants. That you should try to learn and understand why they don't. There is a reason and neither you or me know it. Until we learn, too. By learning this, we can improve our efforts on helping the companies on the path towards open source. -- Aniello Del Sorbo - Original message - Nokia has the resources to develop its own chips, which it could easily keep open. That would solve the problems for everybody (meaning consumers, developers and Nokia). But they're not doing it out of fear of backlash from the closed community. Heaven help the company that sticks its neck out and breaks the industry wide open for *real* innovation... That goes double for FIC and Openmoko. Mark On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 12:24 PM, Aniello Del Sorbo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ari reply: http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/ -- Aniello On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 8:15 PM, tanguyr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm with you: i put a grand and a half of nokia products in my pocket every day (n95 8gb + n810 + bluetooth gps, headset, headphones, etc) and nokia can kiss me and my gadget budget goodbye unless i get what i want: a phone that behaves like my laptop, on which i can install any app i want (open or closed source, free or commericial), for which i can write real first class apps (not python scripts) which i can distribute to thers without having to jump through stupid signing hoops. I'm not a hippy: i'm willing to PAY for this, and i'm sick and tired of marketroids telling me why i can't have it (the carriers won't allow it. the manufacturers won't allow it. it's for your own good, just bend over and spread 'em). The n810 had me fooled - i dreamed of a world where nokia realized the futility of fighting the iPhone by slapping a layer of touch-screen lipstick on the symbian pig. Guess that pig's more of a cash cow than i thought. On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 7:47 PM, mathew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Aniello Del Sorbo wrote: I think that what Ari wanted too say is that Nokia and the industry in general is not YET ready to work the way the open source community wants them to. Well, goodbye then Nokia. We'll all switch to OpenMoko or Android. I read his wording this way: we want to listen and we are listening and actually even doing steps towards those open source rules. But the community asks too much and too fast. We listen and act. You do the same. I don't buy DRM-crippled media and won't buy a phone I can't unlock and do what I want with. If that means I never buy another Nokia phone, so be it. I loved my Nokia back in the 90s, but the company really lost its way, producing a succession of really lousy fashion phone designs that were totally impractical, and failing to realize that quad band and Bluetooth were de rigeur for a business phone. I thought the N series showed that they had gotten a clue, but this stupid comment--by their VP of open source, no less--really has me wondering. mathew -- anidel ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
Aniello, I totally agree with you, and all Please remember Open Source is kinda of licensing and it is the way to license the work , not to work and create for single reason which is making it Open Source Please remember as much as Open Source is needed Close Source is Needed Regards Samer On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 12:46 AM, Aniello Del Sorbo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't understand. We always ask companies to become open source and they had almost never listened. Now that Nokia is moving towards open source, we shout at them. What's the reasoning ? By the way, Ari was just talking to you. You say that they can make their own chip...that's exactly what he wants. That you should try to learn and understand why they don't. There is a reason and neither you or me know it. Until we learn, too. By learning this, we can improve our efforts on helping the companies on the path towards open source. -- Aniello Del Sorbo - Original message - Nokia has the resources to develop its own chips, which it could easily keep open. That would solve the problems for everybody (meaning consumers, developers and Nokia). But they're not doing it out of fear of backlash from the closed community. Heaven help the company that sticks its neck out and breaks the industry wide open for *real* innovation... That goes double for FIC and Openmoko. Mark On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 12:24 PM, Aniello Del Sorbo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ari reply: http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/ -- Aniello On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 8:15 PM, tanguyr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm with you: i put a grand and a half of nokia products in my pocket every day (n95 8gb + n810 + bluetooth gps, headset, headphones, etc) and nokia can kiss me and my gadget budget goodbye unless i get what i want: a phone that behaves like my laptop, on which i can install any app i want (open or closed source, free or commericial), for which i can write real first class apps (not python scripts) which i can distribute to thers without having to jump through stupid signing hoops. I'm not a hippy: i'm willing to PAY for this, and i'm sick and tired of marketroids telling me why i can't have it (the carriers won't allow it. the manufacturers won't allow it. it's for your own good, just bend over and spread 'em). The n810 had me fooled - i dreamed of a world where nokia realized the futility of fighting the iPhone by slapping a layer of touch-screen lipstick on the symbian pig. Guess that pig's more of a cash cow than i thought. On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 7:47 PM, mathew [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Aniello Del Sorbo wrote: I think that what Ari wanted too say is that Nokia and the industry in general is not YET ready to work the way the open source community wants them to. Well, goodbye then Nokia. We'll all switch to OpenMoko or Android. I read his wording this way: we want to listen and we are listening and actually even doing steps towards those open source rules. But the community asks too much and too fast. We listen and act. You do the same. I don't buy DRM-crippled media and won't buy a phone I can't unlock and do what I want with. If that means I never buy another Nokia phone, so be it. I loved my Nokia back in the 90s, but the company really lost its way, producing a succession of really lousy fashion phone designs that were totally impractical, and failing to realize that quad band and Bluetooth were de rigeur for a business phone. I thought the N series showed that they had gotten a clue, but this stupid comment--by their VP of open source, no less--really has me wondering. mathew -- anidel ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users -- __ http://geek2live.blogspot.com/ You pick the level of your suffering yourself - Budha- Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.-Abraham Lincoln -Live Free or Die-Kernel The Canine- A man can fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame someone else.-- John Burroughs - Without music, life would be a mistake.- Nietzsche - He who reigns within himself and rules his passions, desires, and fears is more than a king.-- John Milton - The best portion of a good man's life is the little, nameless,unremembered acts of kindness and love.-- William Wordsworth (1770-1850) English poet -- - The higher type of man clings to virtue, the lower type of man clings to material comfort. The higher type of man cherishes justice, the lower type of man cherishes the hope of favors to be received.-- Confucius (551-479 BC) Chinese Philosopher
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 01:01:51PM -0600, Mark wrote: Nokia has the resources to develop its own chips, which it could easily keep open. That would solve the problems for everybody (meaning consumers, developers and Nokia). Many companies can *afford* to build and design new chips from scratch, yes --- but unfortunately companies are not charities. The question is can you create a credible business plan where a single company (and I don't care whether it is Nokia, Lenovoa, Dell, or anyone else) or maybe a consortium of companies, produces a new multi-function wireless chip that does 3G, Wifi, and everything else, and at the very least breaks even compared with the cost of buying that same component from Broadcom, or whatever supplier they might happen to have. Remember, the mobile business is a highly competitive one, and if it costs an extra $20 per handset, that company will be hugely disadvantaged when they try to get carriers to pick up their phones (at least in the US market, where 99% of cell phones are sold through carriers). And if you think someone is going to put down a huge capital investment just to create an open chipset for the relatively small internet tablet market, and do it in a way that won't lose vast amounts of money, you're *really* smoking something pretty good. But they're not doing it out of fear of backlash from the closed community. Heaven help the company that sticks its neck out and breaks the industry wide open for *real* innovation... I don't think it has anything to do with that at all. It's about a creating valid business plan where it at least breaks even, especially since the number of people that would actually pay extra for open device drivers is very small. I happen to be one of them, but I *know* that I am in the minority. It's just like in the airline business, where people will kvetch about comfort, and lack of hot food in economy class, but where time and time again, it has been proven that when it comes down to deciding whether to fly with airline X or airline Y, the vast majority of customers overwhelmingly go with whatever is cheapest. If you think you're so smart, and can figure a way to make money while breaking the industry wide open, I can certainly introduce you to a few VC's (and VC's are really good at shredding six business plans before breakfast --- well, at least during multiple breakfast meetings. :-) - Ted ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
Aniello Del Sorbo wrote: I think that what Ari wanted too say is that Nokia and the industry in general is not YET ready to work the way the open source community wants them to. Matthew wrote: Well, goodbye then Nokia. We'll all switch to OpenMoko or Android. No joke; I don't want my phone to be like a car, I hate cars. It's kind of sad that Jaaksi feels he needs to teach open source developers something, instead of learn from them. First off: we don't want to be taught about Nokia's business rules, that's between Nokia and their partners. We/I want to buy, and work on open devices. It's really as simple as that. And you know, it's fine if Nokia doesn't want to take the risk of being one of the first, but it just makes me sad to see how misinformed Jaaksi is to think he can reason us out of what we want and how he doesn't see the potential of what open source can bring Nokia (and he's the head of open-source operations!!). Now he just wants to get and not give, but I can understand that, it just seems to be the viewpoint of someone who doesn't know alot about how this open source thingy works, that's all. Maybe Nokia should have someone in that position who understands F/OSS... I'm just glad that, in the meantime, I'm going to have open alternatives. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Aniello Del Sorbo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't understand. We always ask companies to become open source and they had almost never listened. Now that Nokia is moving towards open source, we shout at them. What's the reasoning ? Have you ever heard of a thing called a token gesture? That's what Nokia is doing. By the way, Ari was just talking to you. You say that they can make their own chip...that's exactly what he wants. That you should try to learn and understand why they don't. There is a reason and neither you or me know it. Speak for yourself. Maybe you're naive enough to not know the reasons, but I do. Until we learn, too. What he *really* means is until we accept their statements at face value with no questions. Learning is the very last thing they want us to do, because that means the acquisition of knowledge. They don't want us to know what's really going on, they want us to accept things as they are. There's a huge difference. Progress isn't made by accepting things as they are. By learning this, we can improve our efforts on helping the companies on the path towards open source. -- Aniello Del Sorbo Until the companies realize that they are slitting their own throats by not doing the right thing, the lessons are theirs to learn. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Theodore Tso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 01:01:51PM -0600, Mark wrote: Nokia has the resources to develop its own chips, which it could easily keep open. That would solve the problems for everybody (meaning consumers, developers and Nokia). Many companies can *afford* to build and design new chips from scratch, yes --- but unfortunately companies are not charities. The question is can you create a credible business plan where a single company (and I don't care whether it is Nokia, Lenovoa, Dell, or anyone else) or maybe a consortium of companies, produces a new multi-function wireless chip that does 3G, Wifi, and everything else, and at the very least breaks even compared with the cost of buying that same component from Broadcom, or whatever supplier they might happen to have. Wow, you've swallowed that one hook, line and sinker! Way to pass on the propaganda. What you're talking about is outsourcing, which contrary to popular misconception is NOT cheaper than doing things in-house. EVER. What outsourcing allows unethical management to do is to hide some of the costs elsewhere, and have fewer employees to answer to. Remember, the mobile business is a highly competitive one, and if it costs an extra $20 per handset, that company will be hugely disadvantaged when they try to get carriers to pick up their phones (at least in the US market, where 99% of cell phones are sold through carriers). Again with the myth that it's cheaper to buy somebody else's product than to manufacture your own. How can you possibly believe that it's possible for one company to manufacture a given product for less, when they all have the same resources at their disposal? How gullible can you be? And if you think someone is going to put down a huge capital investment just to create an open chipset for the relatively small internet tablet market, and do it in a way that won't lose vast amounts of money, you're *really* smoking something pretty good. Who said anything about creating only for the internet tablet market? The same chips would work very nicely in phones and other devices. Not to mention the fact that they could then sell the chips to other manufacturers that don't want to or are too small to manufacture their own. But they're not doing it out of fear of backlash from the closed community. Heaven help the company that sticks its neck out and breaks the industry wide open for *real* innovation... I don't think it has anything to do with that at all. It's about a creating valid business plan where it at least breaks even, especially since the number of people that would actually pay extra for open device drivers is very small. I happen to be one of them, but I *know* that I am in the minority. Again with the propaganda. How could open source *possibly* be more expensive? Especially when there's an *UNPAID* community helping to develop it? The only time it's more expensive is in the current situation where one company would have to pay another for rights to work with open source drivers for closed hardware. That is irrelevant to a situation where the company itself is producing both the hardware and the software. It's just like in the airline business, where people will kvetch about comfort, and lack of hot food in economy class, but where time and time again, it has been proven that when it comes down to deciding whether to fly with airline X or airline Y, the vast majority of customers overwhelmingly go with whatever is cheapest. ...and how could having an unpaid army of open source developers not be cheapest? If you think you're so smart, and can figure a way to make money while breaking the industry wide open, I can certainly introduce you to a few VC's (and VC's are really good at shredding six business plans before breakfast --- well, at least during multiple breakfast meetings. :-) - Ted ...and VCs in today's corporations are really good at destroying their own companies... Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
Am Freitag, den 13.06.2008, 16:28 -0400 schrieb Steve Brown: No joke; I don't want my phone to be like a car, I hate cars. It's kind of sad that Jaaksi feels he needs to teach open source developers something, instead of learn from them. First off: we don't want to be taught about Nokia's business rules, that's between Nokia and their partners. so you want to ignore the business reality out there? you personally can do that, but a company can't. it's always easy to state stuff as this, but a company has to care about its position in the market and about gaining benefits. Now he just wants to get and not give and that is just plain wrong, if you take a look at the contributions that Nokia and its partners have given back e.g. to the GNOME software stack. just take a look at the ChangeLog files. andre -- Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster) ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Fri, 2008-06-13 at 14:30 -0600, ext Mark wrote: What he *really* means is until we accept their statements at face value with no questions. Learning is the very last thing they want us to do, because that means the acquisition of knowledge. They don't want us to know what's really going on, they want us to accept things as they are. There's a huge difference. Even if I've never met you, I can't help immaging you wearing a tinfoil hat while you are writing these words. A bit paranoid, aren't they? Speeches can be unclear and/or misunderstood. I suggest instead you check the percentage of closed source sw in the tablets over time: it has been shrinking significantly. And you could also take a look at the name and numbers of open source projects supported and financed in the process of creating the sw stack for the tablets. Of course the situation is not perfect, but it has been improving steadily and there is work ongoing to continue improving it. Then it's your choice to believe to facts or not. -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 2008-06-13 at 14:30 -0600, ext Mark wrote: What he *really* means is until we accept their statements at face value with no questions. Learning is the very last thing they want us to do, because that means the acquisition of knowledge. They don't want us to know what's really going on, they want us to accept things as they are. There's a huge difference. Even if I've never met you, I can't help immaging you wearing a tinfoil hat while you are writing these words. A bit paranoid, aren't they? Disillusioned and realistic are much more accurate descriptions. Gullible would be very descriptive of you. Not to mention inflammatory. It's really easy to discount someone by labeling them as crazy or paranoid when you have nothing to actually refute their arguments. Speeches can be unclear and/or misunderstood. I suggest instead you check the percentage of closed source sw in the tablets over time: it has been shrinking significantly. Have you ever heard the Benjamin Disraeli quote, There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics? There was never a truer statement. Implicit in your statement is that the number of open apps has increased, thereby increasing the percentage of open software, but your statistic is intended to cover up the fact that the amount of closed software hasn't changed. What's more, the closed stuff is the most fundamental stuff, which means there is a very definite and restrictive limit to the kinds of things the open source people can do. And you could also take a look at the name and numbers of open source projects supported and financed in the process of creating the sw stack for the tablets. Irrelevant for the above-stated reasons. This also falls under the category of token gesture. Of course the situation is not perfect, but it has been improving steadily and there is work ongoing to continue improving it. Then it's your choice to believe to facts or not. -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki Don't get me wrong; the community has already done amazing things with the little it's been given. They deserve nothing but acclaim for their efforts. Many thanks to them all! Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Friday 13 June 2008 21:28:09 Steve Brown wrote: We/I want to buy, and work on open devices. It's really as simple as that. I would like to do that as well. But I don't see any such devices being created. (I would also like a flying car). Android most certainly is not that. And no GSM device which was completely open would get type approval to be legal in the EU. If you do not want to use or contribute to a device which is not completely open that is, of course, your choice. I, on the other hand, am willing to work on a device which provides an open application environment and an SDK -- that is the key thing for me. US-style application locks (which, fortunately, have always been rare in the GSM world) are what I really object to. Of course, you are entitled to think that I am selling out a point of principle. And I may think that you are being unrealistic. Agreeing to differ is perfectly fine -- but please do not speak for me. And you know, it's fine if Nokia doesn't want to take the risk of being one of the first, but it just makes me sad to see how misinformed Jaaksi is to think he can reason us out of what we want and how he doesn't see the potential of what open source can bring Nokia (and he's the head of open-source operations!!). Now he just wants to get and not give, but I can understand that, it just seems to be the viewpoint of someone who doesn't know alot about how this open source thingy works, that's all. Maybe Nokia should have someone in that position who understands F/OSS... I think he/they do understand it quite well. F/OSS is a broad community with many different views, including yours, and mine (and many others). Much of the community (although not you, and many others who share your views) are willing to contribute without complete openness. My personal rules (which define what I will or will not do, but which I do not try to impose on others) is that I am willing to tolerate the notion of commercial subsidy with some restrictions: I tolerate sim-locks, which allow the toys I want to be made available to me for less cost in exchange for a reasonable restriction (like not using it on another operator for 18 months). In practice, I accept it if it seems like a fair deal: I insist that the device is also available not locked, for a reasonable price and that the discount for the sim lock is considerable and the lock for a limited time. In those circumstances I think sim-locks are perfectly reasonable. On the other hand, I do not tolerate DRM in its current form because it is not a fair deal. Typically the content being protected by DRM is not available for a reasonable price without DRM, the DRM does not provide me with a considerable discount, and the DRM restrictions do not expire after a reasonable time. My objection to DRM is not one of principle: it is one of fairness. I would be interested in engaging in a dialogue with Nokia to see if they would espouse some similar sorts of fairness principles, in exchange for some of us accepting the things he talks about and contributing to devices which include them. I'm just glad that, in the meantime, I'm going to have open alternatives. What open alternatives? That is a serious question -- I personally know of no manufacturer making devices which are more open than the Internet Tablets and would be interested to know what is/will be available. Graham ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 08:24:05PM +0200, Aniello Del Sorbo wrote: Ari reply: http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/ Here's my contribution to this discussion: http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2008/06/13/learning-how-to-communicate/ - Ted ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
Have people read Jaaksi's blog (previously linked to) http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/ before responding? It's not quite so inflaming as article that started this thread. Not saying you need ot agree with his position in the blog either, but having been quoted by media before, I'm much more inclined to belive his blog than the story it is in reaction to... for the short attention span crowd he does say the learning should be a two way street and that Nokia should learn from open source. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 02:44:01PM -0600, Mark wrote: What you're talking about is outsourcing, which contrary to popular misconception is NOT cheaper than doing things in-house. EVER. What outsourcing allows unethical management to do is to hide some of the costs elsewhere, and have fewer employees to answer to. No, it's not the same as outsourcing. I'm talking about the physical components such as the chips that provide the Wifi, GSM/3G functionality, etc. Companies make buy vs build decisions all the time. It is very often NOT cheaper to make your own chips; why do you think a laptop manufacturer buys video chips from Intel, Nvidia, ATI, etc., and Wifi chips from Broadcom and Atheros, and so on? And while you can choose to build a laptop with devices that all have open source drivers thanks to company like Intel (although you may sacrifice some 3-D graphics performance as a result), life is not so simple in the mobile space, where cell radios are a bit more specialized, and where low power requirements are far more stringent. Again with the myth that it's cheaper to buy somebody else's product than to manufacture your own. How can you possibly believe that it's possible for one company to manufacture a given product for less, when they all have the same resources at their disposal? How gullible can you be? Because they have expertise you don't? Because they manufacture their chipset and sell to multiple customers, so they can amortize their costs across a much larger volume of unit sales? Because they may have access to certaint patents you don't have? There are many good reasons; the best counter example is that all PC manufacturers find it cheaper to buy their CPU chips from Intel and AMD instead of making their own from scratch. Do you really think it is OBVIOUS that it is always cheaper to make your own and never to buy from another company's product? Why is it that Dell doesnt make their own CPU chips, then? - Ted ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 4:28 PM, Theodore Tso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's my contribution to this discussion: http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2008/06/13/learning-how-to-communicate/ - Ted thank you - stated very well -rich ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Jonathan D. Proulx [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have people read Jaaksi's blog (previously linked to) http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/ before responding? It's not quite so inflaming as article that started this thread. Not saying you need ot agree with his position in the blog either, but having been quoted by media before, I'm much more inclined to belive his blog than the story it is in reaction to... for the short attention span crowd he does say the learning should be a two way street and that Nokia should learn from open source. ...but he also slips DRM in there, which is indefensible. DRM doesn't protect anybody from anything. It certainly doesn't prevent unethical people from stealing or distributing content. It does, however, create a great deal of inconvenience for legal users. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
Very well. That was all I wanted to say too. Thanks a lot. -- Aniello - Original message - On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 08:24:05PM +0200, Aniello Del Sorbo wrote: Ari reply: http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/ Here's my contribution to this discussion: http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/2008/06/13/learning-how-to-communicate/ - Ted ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
From: Andre Klapper [EMAIL PROTECTED] Am Freitag, den 13.06.2008, 16:28 -0400 schrieb Steve Brown: No joke; I don't want my phone to be like a car, I hate cars. It's kind of sad that Jaaksi feels he needs to teach open source developers something, instead of learn from them. First off: we don't want to be taught about Nokia's business rules, that's between Nokia and their partners. so you want to ignore the business reality out there? you personally can do that, but a company can't. it's always easy to state stuff as this, but a company has to care about its position in the market and about gaining benefits. Business reality? *looks over at OpenMoko* Although it isn't mine to worry about, some companies (smaller ones than nokia, even) seem to be doing fine in this business reality. What's better, OpenMoko seem to be delivering open handhelds and not excuses (or semi-open handhelds). I'm not going to draw out a roadmap of what Nokia should do to conquer the open source handheld market, because frankly, there is a lot that we aren't told about Nokia's business (and I love how some people on here are pretending that they have all of these details about it). But, on one side I have Nokia saying it is almost impossible, and then OpenMoko simply DOING it. So, the real business reality is that it IS possible, and Nokia isn't doing it for other reasons. All of which is totally fine, I'll go for the open one, not the closed one that says well, atleast we tried. Now he just wants to get and not give and that is just plain wrong, if you take a look at the contributions that Nokia and its partners have given back e.g. to the GNOME software stack. just take a look at the ChangeLog files. I'm sorry for the confusion, I was talking more about giving us non-drm'd/locked down phones, not them contributing to OSS. Software contributions are great (well... that's for another thread), but the problem we're talking about now seem to stem more from hardware and the drivers to make them work. That is what this whole thread is about, right? Are those not the source of these (alleged) business problems? I did read Jaaksi's blog just now, and I'm happy to see that he isn't as ignorant as the article made him sound. -Steve ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Fri, 2008-06-13 at 15:10 -0600, ext Mark wrote: On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 2:49 PM, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 2008-06-13 at 14:30 -0600, ext Mark wrote: What he *really* means is until we accept their statements at face value with no questions. Learning is the very last thing they want us to do, because that means the acquisition of knowledge. They don't want us to know what's really going on, they want us to accept things as they are. There's a huge difference. Even if I've never met you, I can't help immaging you wearing a tinfoil hat while you are writing these words. A bit paranoid, aren't they? Disillusioned and realistic are much more accurate descriptions. I've heard many times conspiration theories like this. They usually involve making the enemy smarter than he actually is or will ever be. You are well down that road. Gullible would be very descriptive of you. Heh, if you refer to the fact that I try to argue with you, probably yes. Not to mention inflammatory. And why not? Do you think you have the monopoly? It's really easy to discount someone by labeling them as crazy or paranoid when you have nothing to actually refute their arguments. I do have arguments and they have been provided, but since it goes against what you want to believe, you ignore it. For example can you deny that Opera has been abandoned? Implicit in your statement is that the number of open apps has increased, thereby increasing the percentage of open software, but your statistic is intended to cover up the fact that the amount of closed software hasn't changed. What's more, the closed stuff is the most fundamental stuff, which means there is a very definite and restrictive limit to the kinds of things the open source people can do. wow, here comes the tinfoil again ... i'm just wondering when you'll pull Lee Oswald in the discussion. If you care enough to search the archives of the maemo ml you'll see that I have been actually listing those impediments that you are foaming about. Don't get me wrong; the community has already done amazing things with the little it's been given. I wouldn't say that it's so little. More can be done, but you are making such generic statements that having a real confrontation is impossible. I'm sure you won't believe me since I'm part of the conspiracy and my @nokia address proves it beyond any doubt, but there really is a daily effort and struggle to improve practices to better cope with the open source way and become good citizens. -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 3:36 PM, Theodore Tso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 02:44:01PM -0600, Mark wrote: What you're talking about is outsourcing, which contrary to popular misconception is NOT cheaper than doing things in-house. EVER. What outsourcing allows unethical management to do is to hide some of the costs elsewhere, and have fewer employees to answer to. No, it's not the same as outsourcing. I'm talking about the physical components such as the chips that provide the Wifi, GSM/3G functionality, etc. Companies make buy vs build decisions all the time. It is very often NOT cheaper to make your own chips; No, not for large companies of equivalent size and financial resources. If you want to compare apples and oranges between a Dell and some local mom pop computer store, then obviously the local doesn't have the resources to manufacture their own *anything*. However, Nokia isn't even close to being in that boat. why do you think a laptop manufacturer buys video chips from Intel, Nvidia, ATI, etc., and Wifi chips from Broadcom and Atheros, and so on? Because, at least for the initial product, it's faster. There's also the matter of compatibility, because as yet no company has taken that step of creating an open product for which *anyone*, anywhere can create drivers, software, and apps. They simply don't want to take the risk of introducing a competing standard, even though there really would be no risk. It would be a sure-fire winner. And while you can choose to build a laptop with devices that all have open source drivers thanks to company like Intel (although you may sacrifice some 3-D graphics performance as a result), life is not so simple in the mobile space, where cell radios are a bit more specialized, and where low power requirements are far more stringent. Again with the myth that it's cheaper to buy somebody else's product than to manufacture your own. How can you possibly believe that it's possible for one company to manufacture a given product for less, when they all have the same resources at their disposal? How gullible can you be? Because they have expertise you don't? Because they manufacture their chipset and sell to multiple customers, so they can amortize their costs across a much larger volume of unit sales? Because they may have access to certaint patents you don't have? There are many good reasons; None of those are counterarguments; in fact, they are all the reasons *for* developing your own hardware. All of your arguments assume that open products can't be manufactured, marketed and sold the same way as closed products, which is absurd. the best counter example is that all PC manufacturers find it cheaper to buy their CPU chips from Intel and AMD instead of making their own from scratch. Except they are doing that for reasons of compatibility (and upholding the status quo), not because it's cheaper or because they are incapable of manufacturing their own chips. Do you really think it is OBVIOUS that it is always cheaper to make your own and never to buy from another company's product? Because it *is* obvious. The fundamental assumption is that the given company has the size and resources to manufacture chips. Give that capability, yes, it is *always* cheaper for them to manufacture their own. Why is it that Dell doesnt make their own CPU chips, then? Because they've long been supporters of Wintel, and in case you haven't noticed, they aren't exactly the model business of late. They've slipped considerably from their former success, and it's all because of outsourcing and proprietary hardware. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
Mark wrote: Nokia has the resources to develop its own chips, which it could easily keep open. That would solve the problems for everybody (meaning consumers, developers and Nokia). Perhaps. One way to look at this is the old VHS/Beta debate of 20 years ago. Sony's beta was technically the better format, but they kept the screws on too tight when it came to licensing. The VHS folks took an aggressive marketing stance by offering licenses to anyone. VHS won out. Was everything under the VHS format 'open source' -- probably not. There is some market prudence to patent development and maintenance. If you want X (made by Widget) to do this, you can license or buy it from Widgets. Could a similar model be developed and offered by Nokia for the internet tablets/phones? Probably. If they want to follow the VHS model, they should get a couple other hardware players like Samsung (name pulled out of a hat) involved. Both could then offer open source phones/tablets as a product operating on a common open source hardware platform. Then license that technology/product line to other companies and let the IPhone suck serious vacuum. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 05:44:57PM -0400, Steve Brown wrote: Business reality? *looks over at OpenMoko* Although it isn't mine to worry about, some companies (smaller ones than nokia, even) seem to be doing fine in this business reality. What's better, OpenMoko seem to be delivering open handhelds and not excuses (or semi-open handhelds). I'm not going to draw out a roadmap of what Nokia should do to conquer the open source handheld market, because frankly, there is a lot that we aren't told about Nokia's business (and I love how some people on here are pretending that they have all of these details about it). But, on one side I have Nokia saying it is almost impossible, and then OpenMoko simply DOING it. So, the real business reality is that it IS possible, and Nokia isn't doing it for other reasons. All of which is totally fine, I'll go for the open one, not the closed one that says well, atleast we tried. OpenMoko is not a business, it's a non-profit research organization. The new phone, when it finally will cost $400 for a tri-band GSM phone, bluetooth, and GPS. It will have no EDGE support; no 3G support. Basic PDA functionality will be included out of the box, but not much else. Compared to what you can get, even ignoring the carrier subsidies, that's a pretty anemic feature set. Sure, open source developers will buy the phone, but do you really think OpenMoko will be a commercial success given its price and feature set? Obviously, commercial success is not the point of the OpenMoko project. But to attack Nokia because they aren't following in OpenMoko's footsteps is also missing the point. - Ted ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I've heard many times conspiration theories like this. They usually involve making the enemy smarter than he actually is or will ever be. You are well down that road. I don't believe in conspiracies. I believe in the power of propaganda, and the fact that the world is overwhelmingly filled with human sheep, who blindly continue current practice, not out of intelligence, but out of stupidity. snip For example can you deny that Opera has been abandoned? I used to use Opera, until it became pay only, then dropped it. I haven't kept up with it much since, except from time to time hearing more evidence of them changing their business model further in the wrong direction. I strongly suspect that it's an ugly death that was long overdue... snip I'm sure you won't believe me since I'm part of the conspiracy and my @nokia address proves it beyond any doubt, but there really is a daily effort and struggle to improve practices to better cope with the open source way and become good citizens. -- Cheers, Igor Look, I don't mean to drag Nokia through the mud completely. The Internet Tablets are definitely a step in the right direction. I just wish that Nokia would be honest, firstly with themselves, and secondly with the community. ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 4:04 PM, Theodore Tso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 05:44:57PM -0400, Steve Brown wrote: Business reality? *looks over at OpenMoko* Although it isn't mine to worry about, some companies (smaller ones than nokia, even) seem to be doing fine in this business reality. What's better, OpenMoko seem to be delivering open handhelds and not excuses (or semi-open handhelds). I'm not going to draw out a roadmap of what Nokia should do to conquer the open source handheld market, because frankly, there is a lot that we aren't told about Nokia's business (and I love how some people on here are pretending that they have all of these details about it). But, on one side I have Nokia saying it is almost impossible, and then OpenMoko simply DOING it. So, the real business reality is that it IS possible, and Nokia isn't doing it for other reasons. All of which is totally fine, I'll go for the open one, not the closed one that says well, atleast we tried. OpenMoko is not a business, it's a non-profit research organization. The new phone, when it finally will cost $400 for a tri-band GSM phone, bluetooth, and GPS. It will have no EDGE support; no 3G support. Basic PDA functionality will be included out of the box, but not much else. Compared to what you can get, even ignoring the carrier subsidies, that's a pretty anemic feature set. Sure, open source developers will buy the phone, but do you really think OpenMoko will be a commercial success given its price and feature set? Obviously, commercial success is not the point of the OpenMoko project. But to attack Nokia because they aren't following in OpenMoko's footsteps is also missing the point. - Ted To be fair to Nokia, Openmoko just isn't in the same league. The reason that I have a Nokia tablet is because Openmoko's device is all but vaporware. While they're struggling to release a device that was promised a year ago, Nokia is already in the third generation of a real, functional device. While I think that a couple of things in the N810 are steps backward from the N800, at least anybody who wants one can actually get their hands on it. The hardware on the Neo, or Freerunner, or whatever they're going to call the next release, really isn't any more open than the tablets, either. It's in the same boat of closed GSM, graphics and GPS chipsets and drivers, etc. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
OpenMoko is not a business, it's a non-profit research organization. The new phone, when it finally will cost $400 for a tri-band GSM phone, bluetooth, and GPS. It will have no EDGE support; no 3G support. Basic PDA functionality will be included out of the box, but not much else. Compared to what you can get, even ignoring the carrier subsidies, that's a pretty anemic feature set. Sure, open source developers will buy the phone, but do you really think OpenMoko will be a commercial success given its price and feature set? Obviously, commercial success is not the point of the OpenMoko project. But to attack Nokia because they aren't following in OpenMoko's footsteps is also missing the point. - Ted Where did you get this information of OpenMoko being a non-profit? I'm definitely willing to pay more for the 1st open phone. I don't think it's an anemic feature set, if you'll remember the original iPhone also lacked those things. Granted it did come out much sooner, but the technology was available. My point is, people still bought it, and paid a hefty price. I have no idea if OM will be a commercial success, it prob won't be because no one knows about it. Even people on this list, an open source handheld community, don't know about it. But commercial success, from my point of view, seems to come mainly from marketing, not so much small differences in tech specs. I do think short-term compromises need to be made and communication never hurt. But many companies are buried in the old way of doing things, and that isn't going to change without a fight or without a company taking the initial risk. I was just initially shocked, because it at first seemed like Jaaksi was rolling over and was perfectly ok with these devices being locked down like cars indefinitely. That was my misunderstanding. -Steve ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 4:16 PM, Theodore Tso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 03:54:40PM -0600, Mark wrote: Because it *is* obvious. The fundamental assumption is that the given company has the size and resources to manufacture chips. Give that capability, yes, it is *always* cheaper for them to manufacture their own. Your naiveté is touching. You have no idea how expensive it is to design modern, highly complex chips, do you? The manufacturing costs are only one part of it. If you ignore the RD costs, then sure, once the chip is designed, making your own is cheaper but the startup costs of doing your own design, even if you are going to amortize it over a very large number of device, will generally push the per-unit cost of a custom chip to becoming FAR more expensive than simply buying a CPU from Intel or AMD --- or a wifi chip from Broadcom or a Video chipset from Nvidia. - Ted So you're saying their RD costs are less? Can you explain to me why that is? Never mind, I'll tell you: because they're already in the business. It's that first time gearing up that is so expensive, it's much less so after that because you already have the infrastructure in place. Given that two different companies are already making similar chips, though, the costs are also similar, even for new generations. I'll grant you that the first-time cost is more than for a successive generation, but that's comparing apples to oranges. They obviously started up and kept going and profitable, why should it be different for someone else? Your arguments defy all logic. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
En/na Theodore Tso ha escrit: a custom chip to becoming FAR more expensive than simply buying a CPU from Intel or AMD --- or a wifi chip from Broadcom or a Video chipset from Nvidia. In the case of the wifi chip you could buy it from atheros or ralink (and I'm sure there are other), that at least have open drivers, and don't base their business model on linux without giving anything back like broadcom. Bye -- Luca ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Nokia: Linux Needs to Learn Business
On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 01:31:51AM +0200, Luca Olivetti wrote: In the case of the wifi chip you could buy it from atheros or ralink (and I'm sure there are other), that at least have open drivers, and don't base their business model on linux without giving anything back like broadcom. As I mentioned earlier, the real challenge in the mobile space is getting chipsets which combine multiple functions (cell phone services, GPS, wifi, 3G, etc.) into a single chipset, using very low power consumption so devices can be both (a) lightweight, and (b) have a decent battery lifespan. It's not that hard to make something that is the size and weight of an OpenMoko device, but most people like their cell phones light and thin, and for 99.99% of the population out there, this plus must be low cost tends to trump considerations such as open drivers. If you'd like to try to convince the general population that they should ditch their Blackberries and RZOR's for Open Moko's, please don't let me stop you - Ted ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
