Re: [Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs?
2011/7/12 andre999 and...@laposte.net: Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : 2011/7/9 andre999and...@laposte.net: Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : 2011/7/8 Thorsten van Liltv...@gmx.de: Am 08.07.2011 10:42, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath: 2011/7/8 James Kerrj...@jkerr82508.free-online.co.uk: This thread has strayed far from the original question, which could be re-stated as: Should tainted free software and tainted nonfree software be commingled in a single tainted repository? How can tainted software be free software at the same time? Because free is a matter of license, while tainted is a matter of patents. For example, the libdvdcss2 is free, as the the source-code is open (GPL) but it touches the patent issue, so it's tainted. Yes, if you regard patents not as a criterium for free or non-free then this division makes sense. From that point of view we need the same structure as PLF (tainted-free and tainted-non-free). As well, the question of patent claims is a totally hypothetical problem, in almost every country -- including the USA -- for mirrors that carry distros like Mageia. (In the USA, the patent office used to systematically refuse patent claims on software. And patents are only examined for conflicting US patents before being registered. Not for the acceptability of the patent itself.) So basically, tainted is for the benefit of those who would like to support software patents. You say that people who obey to the laws of their country are to blame for obeying these laws? That's ridiculous. It is not at all a question of obeying laws. A patent is granted to give certain civil rights on the part of the patent holder, for original developments, that are not obvious from existing knowledge. The idea is to encourage innovation by protecting the investments made by innovators. Because patents are granted essentially on the basis of not conflicting with other patents (especially software patents), there is no assurance that a patent is valid at all. Patents on software are particularly problematic, as software is based on logic, and what is obvious from existing knowledge is not necessarily apparent to those not in the computer field. It most countries such patents are denied. In the USA, patents on software are (at least sometimes) accepted, most patent claims are not supported by the courts. In other words, they are not valid. If you had read the reference, you should have understood that. The fact that nobody (in FOSS community) has been called to court yet does not mean that the related laws do not exist! The Debian paper (Romain linked to) has an answer to the reasons. Which clearly indicates that the risk is minimal in the countries where such a risk exists. According to the report, no cases to date against FOSS software, distributed by non-commercial entities. Basically my point. It also warns against paranoia about patents. This paranoia seems to me a bit like never crossing a street because one might get run over by a bus. Even if one crosses in a marked crosswalk. Besides, tainted is not only about patents, it's also about software which is illegal in certain countries (like libdvdcss). Ok, a relatively limited application. So in all, maybe a handful of packages at most should be in tainted. So why do we have more than 150 ? Sorry, but I do not understand your way of thinking. If a law exists it exists. It does not matter to a law whether it is likely to be enforced. Period. This is not paranoia, it is a matter of mind set. If robbery would not be prosecuted, would you go out and earn your doe by taking away handbags from old ladies? You would not, because it is wrong. For those who are living in countries where patents are valid and accepted by the law, using a patented software is wrong. So you must accept that there are people who would not do it. Telling them how they should think about it is not ours. That's why we have the tainted repo. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs?
On 12.07.2011 04:42, andre999 wrote: Romain d'Alverny a écrit : Speaking of the software patent stuff, the Debian Project just released a Community Distribution Patent Policy FAQ here: http://www.debian.org/reports/patent-faq (announce: http://www.debian.org/News/2011/20110709 ). Romain Interesting reading. Warning against paranoia regarding software patents. So maybe we should have a policy of putting packages in tainted for patent reasons only after being notified by the patent holder ? We are unlikely to be notified (Ubuntu/Debian hasn't been to my knowledge), so that would effectively make tainted empty. Or some other significant factor regarding actual willingness to attempt to enforce ? Or actual validity ? (In the few jurisdictions accepting software patents, of course.) That is what is done. If there is a licensing program or past enforcement, it is considered as tainted. -- Anssi Hannula
Re: [Mageia-dev] KDE 4.7RC2 update
On Tuesday 12 July 2011 01:57:47 Radu-Cristian FOTESCU wrote: KDE is going to be updated to KDE SC 4.7 SC2. RC2. But where the heck is 4.6.95? I can't find it on any KDE mirror! Where are you D/L it from? ftp://ftp.kde.org/pub/kde/unstable ? Not to mention that http://kde.org/info/4.6.95.php doesn't exist... Of course 4.6.95 is the RC2 but you'll only find http://www.kde.org/announcements/announce-4.7-rc2.php as an announce. For example RC1 was 4.6.90 Regards -- Balcaen John
[Mageia-dev] [Mageia 2 specifications] Systemd or not systemd
Hi there Following discussion about technical specifications, here is an interesting item: systemd Bug report to follow discussion and history: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2120 We need points of view, the way we could integrate it if we decide to go, planning (I guess it would need to start now to be full ready for final release) Comments, proposals, shout ? Cheers -- Anne http://www.mageia.org
Re: [Mageia-dev] [Mageia 2 specifications] Systemd or not systemd
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 09:11, Anne nicolas enn...@mageia.org wrote: Hi there Following discussion about technical specifications, here is an interesting item: systemd Bug report to follow discussion and history: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2120 We need points of view, the way we could integrate it if we decide to go, planning (I guess it would need to start now to be full ready for final release) Comments, proposals, shout ? If nobody objects, I could help with that. Mandriva certainly gave a large experience on how to integrate systemd into the system without killing traditional sysvinit alternative. It would also be extremely interested to have native systemd services which use most of systemd features (like sound and alsa scripts, which we discussed with Colin and Andrey Borzenkov some months ago but never got to implement properly). -- Eugeni Dodonov http://eugeni.dodonov.net/
[Mageia-dev] Remove bobobot from distribution ?
bobobot seems to have been unmaintained for a very long time (more than 10 years), sound doesn't work anymore as it requires esound, game speed is too rapid on modern computers, and it's only a preview. Couldn't we drop it ? Samuel
Re: [Mageia-dev] [Mageia 2 specifications] Systemd or not systemd
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 2:15 PM, Eugeni Dodonov eug...@dodonov.net wrote: On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 09:11, Anne nicolas enn...@mageia.org wrote: Hi there Following discussion about technical specifications, here is an interesting item: systemd Bug report to follow discussion and history: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2120 We need points of view, the way we could integrate it if we decide to go, planning (I guess it would need to start now to be full ready for final release) Comments, proposals, shout ? If nobody objects, I could help with that. Mandriva certainly gave a large experience on how to integrate systemd into the system without killing traditional sysvinit alternative. It would also be extremely interested to have native systemd services which use most of systemd features (like sound and alsa scripts, which we discussed with Colin and Andrey Borzenkov some months ago but never got to implement properly). -- Eugeni Dodonov http://eugeni.dodonov.net/ If you can soon that would be awesome that way we will have plenty of time to test before our first alpha ( and because we will have to rebuild packages with systemd switch to on thanks for you help
Re: [Mageia-dev] [Mageia 2 specifications] Systemd or not systemd
On Tuesday 12 July 2011 09:15:18 Eugeni Dodonov wrote: [...] Comments, proposals, shout ? If nobody objects, I could help with that. Mandriva certainly gave a large experience on how to integrate systemd into the system without killing traditional sysvinit alternative. I don't have any objections ;o) Also since you work alot on it , why do we have some systemd files in initscripts ? (because i noticed that thoses files were moved back to systemd package) -- Balcaen John
Re: [Mageia-dev] [Mageia 2 specifications] Systemd or not systemd
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 09:38, Balcaen John mik...@mageia.org wrote: On Tuesday 12 July 2011 09:15:18 Eugeni Dodonov wrote: [...] Comments, proposals, shout ? If nobody objects, I could help with that. Mandriva certainly gave a large experience on how to integrate systemd into the system without killing traditional sysvinit alternative. I don't have any objections ;o) Also since you work alot on it , why do we have some systemd files in initscripts ? (because i noticed that thoses files were moved back to systemd package) Each package is free to provide its .service files for systemd, they are not tied to any development libraries or headers and such. In case of initscripts, there are (were?) many mandriva-specifics tricks which used to run on startup via rc.sysinit and similar approaches, so initscripts package looked as the best place to put them at the time I think. -- Eugeni Dodonov http://eugeni.dodonov.net/
Re: [Mageia-dev] [Mageia 2 specifications] Systemd or not systemd
'Twas brillig, and Eugeni Dodonov at 12/07/11 13:15 did gyre and gimble: If nobody objects, I could help with that. Mandriva certainly gave a large experience on how to integrate systemd into the system without killing traditional sysvinit alternative. It would also be extremely interested to have native systemd services which use most of systemd features (like sound and alsa scripts, which we discussed with Colin and Andrey Borzenkov some months ago but never got to implement properly). Massive +1 for systemd and massive +1 Eugeni wanting to help out! \o/ I'll try and help out in bits and bobs too, tho' time is always a problem! Col -- Colin Guthrie mageia(at)colin.guthr.ie http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/] Open Source: Mageia Contributor [http://www.mageia.org/] PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/] Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/]
Re: [Mageia-dev] Remove bobobot from distribution ?
'Twas brillig, and Samuel Verschelde at 12/07/11 13:24 did gyre and gimble: bobobot seems to have been unmaintained for a very long time (more than 10 years), sound doesn't work anymore as it requires esound, game speed is too rapid on modern computers, and it's only a preview. Couldn't we drop it ? Looks like a candidate for dropping to me. Col -- Colin Guthrie mageia(at)colin.guthr.ie http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited [http://www.tribalogic.net/] Open Source: Mageia Contributor [http://www.mageia.org/] PulseAudio Hacker [http://www.pulseaudio.org/] Trac Hacker [http://trac.edgewall.org/]
[Mageia-dev] Python Packaging Policy
Hi, remember this first draft (http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=python_policy) that is still a draft now we have also Python3 so we really need to write our policy I see mainly two majors points : 1/ pyc, pyo management 2/ having Python2 and Python3 about 1/ : it seems that the best would be to package only py (smallest packages) and having triggers on install and on remove to manage pyc and pyo (That's in fact the Debian way (http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/python-policy/ch-module_packages.html#s-byte_compilation)) if we go this way, we need someone to write triggers and people to review all Python packages (I'm ok to work on that review, for triggers, I have no clue on how to do, but may be that with some help I could try) about 2/ : again we have to review all Python packages to see if they run under Python3 or not and to package them for Python2 and Python3 (I'm ok to work on that review) may be that the Fedora policy can help us for that ?: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Python
[Mageia-dev] [Mageia 2 specifications ] Grub2
Yet another burning subject that needs time to think about it and eventually migrate to. https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2121 Grub 2 is coming now regularly in proposals. What should we do about it : - Stay with Grub 1 - pb ? maintainance ? restrictions ? - Switch to Grub 2 : smooth migration, tests, integration... - another alternative ? As usual, comments, proposals... Cheers -- Anne http://www.mageia.org
Re: [Mageia-dev] [RPM] cauldron core/release firefox-l10n-5.0.1-1.mga2
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 10:13 AM, Sander Lepik sander.le...@eesti.ee wrote: 12.07.2011 10:54, Mageia Team kirjutas: Description : Localizations for Firefox web browser. fwangfwang 5.0.1-1.mga2: + Revision: 123010 - new version 5.0.1 I think cauldron should already have Firefox 6 (to test it for next stable release on mga1). And there is still no Firefox 5 for mga1.. secteam? This is not up to sec team yet. I hope to finish to prepare FF 5.0.1 for mga1 this week
Re: [Mageia-dev] [Mageia 2 specifications ] Grub2
Le mardi 12 juillet 2011 15:12:52, Anne nicolas a écrit : Yet another burning subject that needs time to think about it and eventually migrate to. https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2121 Grub 2 is coming now regularly in proposals. What should we do about it : - Stay with Grub 1 - pb ? maintainance ? restrictions ? - Switch to Grub 2 : smooth migration, tests, integration... SWITCH! We can switch Cauldron now, to get massive tests, now that KDM knows it. I feel it is specially important that drakboot, gdm and kdm work nicely with it (ie. no regression). - Test also multiboot with Ubuntu and Fedora (auto-detection) And still keep GRUB1 till Mageia 3, to have a simple go back avalaible for people who will have problems with GRUB2.
Re: [Mageia-dev] [Mageia 2 specifications ] Grub2
SWITCH! We can switch Cauldron now, to get massive tests, now that KDM knows it. I feel it is specially important that drakboot, gdm and kdm work nicely with it (ie. no regression). More than that... Still other dm like LxDM need to be tested. But, is drakboot support LxDM/Slim..., other than KDM/GDM? - Test also multiboot with Ubuntu and Fedora (auto-detection) And still keep GRUB1 till Mageia 3, to have a simple go back avalaible for people who will have problems with GRUB2.
[Mageia-dev] mgarepo howto
Hi, I started to write a mgarepo howto feel free to contribute ;) I think also that part of this future howto can be added to man
Re: [Mageia-dev] mgarepo howto
2011/7/12 philippe makowski makowski.mag...@gmail.com: Hi, I started to write a mgarepo howto feel free to contribute ;) I think also that part of this future howto can be added to man url ? :) -- Anne http://www.mageia.org
Re: [Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs?
Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 11:16:24 +0200 From: Wolfgang Bornath molc...@googlemail.com To: Mageia development mailing-list mageia-dev@mageia.org Subject: Re: [Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs? Message-ID: CA+h4nj6KtYu8vUFcZ4mWUO08J5ZyxB5XnN2bsSLoqm8R7w6E=w...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2011/7/12 andre999 and...@laposte.net: Wolfgang Bornath a ?crit : 2011/7/9 andre999and...@laposte.net: Wolfgang Bornath a ?crit : 2011/7/8 Thorsten van Liltv...@gmx.de: Am 08.07.2011 10:42, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath: 2011/7/8 James Kerrj...@jkerr82508.free-online.co.uk: This thread has strayed far from the original question, which could be re-stated as: Should tainted free software and tainted nonfree software be commingled in a single tainted repository? ... Besides, tainted is not only about patents, it's also about software which is illegal in certain countries (like libdvdcss). Ok, a relatively limited application. So in all, maybe a handful of packages at most should be in tainted. So why do we have more than 150 ? Sorry, but I do not understand your way of thinking. If a law exists it exists. It does not matter to a law whether it is likely to be enforced. Period. This is not paranoia, it is a matter of mind set. If robbery would not be prosecuted, would you go out and earn your doe by taking away handbags from old ladies? You would not, because it is wrong. For those who are living in countries where patents are valid and accepted by the law, using a patented software is wrong. So you must accept that there are people who would not do it. Telling them how they should think about it is not ours. That's why we have the tainted repo. -- wobo +1 I live in the USA, and while I do not personally support the concept of software pantents, I also do not want to violate them as long as they are leagally recognized where I live. For me, this is not a matter of risk, but one of ethics, morality, and respect. IMHO, the fact that my Countries Society recognizes patents as being legally binding makes it my responsibility to honor them, so I want to know if a software package may be affected by one or more patent(s) before I install it on my computer. If I know that (for example) package foo is affected by a patent, I can search for the patent holder, and make contact to request permission to ust the software, then abide with their response. This way, I fulfill my obligation to ask permission before using software that is (or may be) affected by some one elses property. I would no more use patented software without permission here in the USA than I would take my neighbor's lawnmower to cut my grass without his permission. I understand that the following may not be practicable, but I would like all software that is affected by a patent (and perhaps other licensing or copyright restrictions) to be placed in a restricted (tainted) repository. Also I would like to see patent (or contact) information in the software package's description to help facilitate my ability to ask permission to use the software. By doing these things, Mageia is doing more to support my ability to live by my personal convictions than to support patent law. Ernest N. Wilcox Jr. Registered Linux User 247790
Re: [Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs?
2011/7/12 Ernest N. Wilcox Jr. ewil...@bex.net: Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 11:16:24 +0200 From: Wolfgang Bornath molc...@googlemail.com To: Mageia development mailing-list mageia-dev@mageia.org Subject: Re: [Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs? Message-ID: CA+h4nj6KtYu8vUFcZ4mWUO08J5ZyxB5XnN2bsSLoqm8R7w6E=w...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2011/7/12 andre999 and...@laposte.net: Wolfgang Bornath a ?crit : 2011/7/9 andre999and...@laposte.net: Wolfgang Bornath a ?crit : 2011/7/8 Thorsten van Liltv...@gmx.de: Am 08.07.2011 10:42, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath: 2011/7/8 James Kerrj...@jkerr82508.free-online.co.uk: This thread has strayed far from the original question, which could be re-stated as: Should tainted free software and tainted nonfree software be commingled in a single tainted repository? ... Besides, tainted is not only about patents, it's also about software which is illegal in certain countries (like libdvdcss). Ok, a relatively limited application. So in all, maybe a handful of packages at most should be in tainted. So why do we have more than 150 ? Sorry, but I do not understand your way of thinking. If a law exists it exists. It does not matter to a law whether it is likely to be enforced. Period. This is not paranoia, it is a matter of mind set. If robbery would not be prosecuted, would you go out and earn your doe by taking away handbags from old ladies? You would not, because it is wrong. For those who are living in countries where patents are valid and accepted by the law, using a patented software is wrong. So you must accept that there are people who would not do it. Telling them how they should think about it is not ours. That's why we have the tainted repo. -- wobo +1 I live in the USA, and while I do not personally support the concept of software pantents, I also do not want to violate them as long as they are leagally recognized where I live. For me, this is not a matter of risk, but one of ethics, morality, and respect. IMHO, the fact that my Countries Society recognizes patents as being legally binding makes it my responsibility to honor them, so I want to know if a software package may be affected by one or more patent(s) before I install it on my computer. If I know that (for example) package foo is affected by a patent, I can search for the patent holder, and make contact to request permission to ust the software, then abide with their response. This way, I fulfill my obligation to ask permission before using software that is (or may be) affected by some one elses property. I would no more use patented software without permission here in the USA than I would take my neighbor's lawnmower to cut my grass without his permission. I understand that the following may not be practicable, but I would like all software that is affected by a patent (and perhaps other licensing or copyright restrictions) to be placed in a restricted (tainted) repository. Also I would like to see patent (or contact) information in the software package's description to help facilitate my ability to ask permission to use the software. By doing these things, Mageia is doing more to support my ability to live by my personal convictions than to support patent law. Thx for youor thoughts, this is the first time a user participates in this discussion who is actually affected by the issue we are talking about. It's a totally different point of view if you are affected and you care. This is something we should regard as a standard in all discussions about such issues: ask the people who are affected by the issue in question. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] [123240] new version 2.0 rc
On Tuesday 12 July 2011 17:48:00 r...@mageia.org wrote: Revision: 123240 Author: fwang Date: 2011-07-12 17:48:00 +0200 (Tue, 12 Jul 2011) Log Message: --- new version 2.0 rc [...] Just to be sure you did notice that digikam software collection is also providing kipi-plugins since beta1 ? Also it's comming with some libs provided by KDE SC ( libkipi, libkdcraw, libexiv2 libksane). Neoclust should patch digikam collection SE to check for system libs but if you don't want to wait maybe we can simply patch/sed the CMakeLists.txt to check system's one. Please note also that ze was working on it last week. -- Balcaen John
Re: [Mageia-dev] mgarepo howto
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Il 12/07/2011 18:19, Anne nicolas ha scritto: 2011/7/12 philippe makowski makowski.mag...@gmail.com: Hi, I started to write a mgarepo howto feel free to contribute ;) I think also that part of this future howto can be added to man url ? :) Maybe it's http://www.mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=mgarepo_howto bye - -- Matteo () ascii ribbon campaign - against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org - against proprietary attachments -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mageia - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJOHIHhAAoJED3LowjDDWbN/rcH/jnOwOwq+VF3Y9w69+LTPK3j 5l5PGSE5rEy1K+/fo37TlZby1g5VLZB6svgF0EezL3sgiBaSWdW5RZRLPsRlpyEH lnnAqaNh4AdcMiH4RxBZ4TH8XbzdBtL22MGHsXYo8p1b4LRvQWAuixAkJ9r3jmu0 ZPMHdvn0VQEuVPRqXcBm2z/8hLxrdiJDL/JaHVKcGYGqMqU2xTM6qFA0jNVzVuNQ I2VDu4oY9iq2u+GTLgA7G1/glTskaLsMXqGyRRP1VeqIn18wIpxf6w2kl8BH41E8 DrgfLJMaR4TgaylG8xAEPJJ/8fKAK9jazjz04jHYM8j3UpwZTwJ41IGZ7n+Pi6g= =lQ/l -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Mageia-dev] mesa update needed
On Sunday 10 July 2011 14:45:53 you wrote: 2011/7/10 Christiaan Welvaart c...@daneel.dyndns.org: hi, The clutter library currently in cauldron doesn't work with current mesa, at least on my graphics hardware. This means programs like totem and gnibbles are not functional. Gnome-shell also appears to require a newer mesa. A recent snapshot of mesa (the same one as in fedora rawhide probably) is already in svn and I tested that totem and gnibbles work with it. So maybe it's time to submit it to cauldron. Well maybe we should update it to 7.11 rc1 ? cf http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/mesa-dev/2011-July/009273.html So i'm pushing mesa 7.11 rc1 however i enabled back mesaglut. Regards, -- Balcaen John
Re: [Mageia-dev] [Mageia 2 specifications ] Grub2
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Kira elegant.pega...@gmail.com wrote: SWITCH! I vote for SWITCH too because GRUB2 supports booting large disks and hardware RAID devices with GPT partition tables.
Re: [Mageia-dev] [Mageia 2 specifications ] Grub2
José Jorge a écrit : Le mardi 12 juillet 2011 15:12:52, Anne nicolas a écrit : Yet another burning subject that needs time to think about it and eventually migrate to. https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2121 Grub 2 is coming now regularly in proposals. What should we do about it : - Stay with Grub 1 - pb ? maintainance ? restrictions ? - Switch to Grub 2 : smooth migration, tests, integration... SWITCH! +1 We can switch Cauldron now, to get massive tests, now that KDM knows it. I feel it is specially important that drakboot, gdm and kdm work nicely with it (ie. no regression). - Test also multiboot with Ubuntu and Fedora (auto-detection) And still keep GRUB1 till Mageia 3, to have a simple go back avalaible for people who will have problems with GRUB2. +1 So nobody gets stranded. -- André
Re: [Mageia-dev] Python Packaging Policy
philippe makowski a écrit : Hi, remember this first draft (http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=python_policy) that is still a draft now we have also Python3 so we really need to write our policy I see mainly two majors points : 1/ pyc, pyo management 2/ having Python2 and Python3 about 1/ : it seems that the best would be to package only py (smallest packages) and having triggers on install and on remove to manage pyc and pyo (That's in fact the Debian way (http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/python-policy/ch-module_packages.html#s-byte_compilation)) if we go this way, we need someone to write triggers and people to review all Python packages (I'm ok to work on that review, for triggers, I have no clue on how to do, but may be that with some help I could try) +1 (Although I don't have any idea how to do it yet either, but would be willing to try with some help, as well.) about 2/ : again we have to review all Python packages to see if they run under Python3 or not and to package them for Python2 and Python3 (I'm ok to work on that review) may be that the Fedora policy can help us for that ?: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Python I think it would be very useful to have coexisting python2 3 (like fedora). -- André
Re: [Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs?
Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : 2011/7/12 andre999and...@laposte.net: Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : 2011/7/9 andre999and...@laposte.net: Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : 2011/7/8 Thorsten van Liltv...@gmx.de: Am 08.07.2011 10:42, schrieb Wolfgang Bornath: 2011/7/8 James Kerrj...@jkerr82508.free-online.co.uk: This thread has strayed far from the original question, which could be re-stated as: Should tainted free software and tainted nonfree software be commingled in a single tainted repository? How can tainted software be free software at the same time? Because free is a matter of license, while tainted is a matter of patents. For example, the libdvdcss2 is free, as the the source-code is open (GPL) but it touches the patent issue, so it's tainted. Yes, if you regard patents not as a criterium for free or non-free then this division makes sense. From that point of view we need the same structure as PLF (tainted-free and tainted-non-free). As well, the question of patent claims is a totally hypothetical problem, in almost every country -- including the USA -- for mirrors that carry distros like Mageia. (In the USA, the patent office used to systematically refuse patent claims on software. And patents are only examined for conflicting US patents before being registered. Not for the acceptability of the patent itself.) So basically, tainted is for the benefit of those who would like to support software patents. You say that people who obey to the laws of their country are to blame for obeying these laws? That's ridiculous. It is not at all a question of obeying laws. A patent is granted to give certain civil rights on the part of the patent holder, for original developments, that are not obvious from existing knowledge. The idea is to encourage innovation by protecting the investments made by innovators. Because patents are granted essentially on the basis of not conflicting with other patents (especially software patents), there is no assurance that a patent is valid at all. Patents on software are particularly problematic, as software is based on logic, and what is obvious from existing knowledge is not necessarily apparent to those not in the computer field. It most countries such patents are denied. In the USA, patents on software are (at least sometimes) accepted, most patent claims are not supported by the courts. In other words, they are not valid. If you had read the reference, you should have understood that. The fact that nobody (in FOSS community) has been called to court yet does not mean that the related laws do not exist! The Debian paper (Romain linked to) has an answer to the reasons. Which clearly indicates that the risk is minimal in the countries where such a risk exists. According to the report, no cases to date against FOSS software, distributed by non-commercial entities. Basically my point. It also warns against paranoia about patents. This paranoia seems to me a bit like never crossing a street because one might get run over by a bus. Even if one crosses in a marked crosswalk. Besides, tainted is not only about patents, it's also about software which is illegal in certain countries (like libdvdcss). Ok, a relatively limited application. So in all, maybe a handful of packages at most should be in tainted. So why do we have more than 150 ? Sorry, but I do not understand your way of thinking. If a law exists it exists. It does not matter to a law whether it is likely to be enforced. Period. True. But patents have nothing to do with enforcing laws. This is not paranoia, it is a matter of mind set. If robbery would not be prosecuted, would you go out and earn your doe by taking away handbags from old ladies? You would not, because it is wrong. For those who are living in countries where patents are valid and accepted by the law, using a patented software is wrong. So you must accept that there are people who would not do it. Telling them how they should think about it is not ours. That's why we have the tainted repo. In my mind, this argument misses the concept of software patents. Firstly, patents are not laws. They are civil rights granted in exchange for encouraging innovation. However patents on software are granted without ensuring that the patents are valid. (At least in the USA.) There is only a check on conflicts with other patents. This is easy to understand, as validating patents on software is quasi-impossible without considerable time and expense. Which is probably why most countries do not accept software patents. Software patents in fact discourage innovation, going against the basic justification of patents. In practice, virtually all software patents in the USA are found to be invalid, when contested in the courts. Usually a form of costly legal harcelling is used to extract royalties, from companies with deep pockets. Note that patents are nothing more than a civil right, akin to trespassing. So if someone
Re: [Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs?
2011/7/12 andre999 and...@laposte.net: For all these reasons, I think that it is much more appropriate to wait to be approached by the patent holder. (If not ourselves, then some other distro.) And if that means that our constrained (tainted) repos are almost empty, wouldn't that simplify things ? I strongly advise NOT to do this. I gave my reasons and (much more important) one of the people who are affected gave his reasons. I see no sense in continuing this. We have a different perception of laws, so it seems. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] KDE 4.7RC2 update
Balcaen JohnOn Monday 11 July 2011 20:55:58 wrote: Hello, KDE is going to be updated to KDE SC 4.7 SC2. Ok most of the update is done now :) -- Balcaen John
Re: [Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs?
On mardi 12 juillet 2011 at 22:48, andre999 wrote : I noticed that all packages in tainted contain .tainted. in the name. rsync permits adding the option --exclude '.tainted.' to permit excluding such packages if a mirror wants to. You should not do that, because you will end up with a broken repository, as the hdlist files will contain references to files which are not present on the mirror. A repository must be mirrored entirely or not at all. (And I think it is already enough work for the mirror maintainers to have to exclude some directory, they surely don't want to maintain per mirror custom rules) -- Renaud Michel
Re: [Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs?
andre999 skrev 12.7.2011 23:48: So we could eliminate the tainted repos, to facilitate putting packages in core or non-free as appropriate. There may have to be a few adjustments to show (or not) the packages tagged tainted, but that shouldn't be difficult. Wouldn't that be easier ? (At the same time, we could choose a name that doesn't indicate that there is something intrinsically wrong with the package.) NO. The decision to have a separated repo for tainted software is not up for debate... It has already been discussed and decided long ago. as for the question that started this thread: Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs? It's simple, and even outlined in the mirrors_policy: http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=mirrors_policy If there is a package that otherwise matches core or nonfree repos, but has a possible patent issue it ends up in tainted. As for splitting up tainted in tainted-core/tainted-nonfree, I dont think it's really worth it, and no-one really argued for it when we discussed the mirror layout... -- Thomas
Re: [Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs?
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 23:08, Balcaen John mik...@mageia.org wrote: On Tuesday 12 July 2011 16:48:58 andre999 wrote: [...] For all these reasons, I think that it is much more appropriate to wait to be approached by the patent holder. (If not ourselves, then some other distro.) I hope you're not serious when writing thoses lines. Actually, this is what seems to be a standard process in the industry when you read the headlines. One doesn't hear about (software) patents when licensing occurs as expected, but when someone in the industry challenges (or is challenged by) some other actor patent. Because that's the only way to prove a patent to be ineffective (for various reasons) before it expires. (I am not proposing one or the other option - and it's going out of the initial question in this thread - tmb reframed it well). Romain
Re: [Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs?
On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 11:20 PM, Thomas Backlund t...@mageia.org wrote: andre999 skrev 12.7.2011 23:48: So we could eliminate the tainted repos, to facilitate putting packages in core or non-free as appropriate. There may have to be a few adjustments to show (or not) the packages tagged tainted, but that shouldn't be difficult. Wouldn't that be easier ? (At the same time, we could choose a name that doesn't indicate that there is something intrinsically wrong with the package.) NO. The decision to have a separated repo for tainted software is not up for debate... It has already been discussed and decided long ago. as for the question that started this thread: Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs? It's simple, and even outlined in the mirrors_policy: http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=mirrors_policy If there is a package that otherwise matches core or nonfree repos, but has a possible patent issue it ends up in tainted. As for splitting up tainted in tainted-core/tainted-nonfree, I dont think it's really worth it, and no-one really argued for it when we discussed the mirror layout... -- Thomas i can't agree more with you thomas.
Re: [Mageia-dev] [Mageia 2 specifications ] Grub2
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:29:31 +0200, José Jorge jjo...@free.fr wrote: Le mardi 12 juillet 2011 15:12:52, Anne nicolas a écrit : Yet another burning subject that needs time to think about it and eventually migrate to. https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2121 Grub 2 is coming now regularly in proposals. What should we do about it : - Stay with Grub 1 - pb ? maintainance ? restrictions ? - Switch to Grub 2 : smooth migration, tests, integration... SWITCH! +1 We can switch Cauldron now, to get massive tests, now that KDM knows it. I feel it is specially important that drakboot, gdm and kdm work nicely with it (ie. no regression). - Test also multiboot with Ubuntu and Fedora (auto-detection) And still keep GRUB1 till Mageia 3, to have a simple go back avalaible for people who will have problems with GRUB2. What for ? Any day from now everybody will be using btrfs to boot and then GRUB 1 is useless... -- J.A. Magallon jamagallon()ono!com \ Winter is coming...
[Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs?
So there seems to be a wish for an other answer to this request : https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1730 Faac (and rpms built with it ) might appear at least in tainted repo ? same as they are in plf ... or in Debian squeeze multimedia repo, or in ATrpms repo for Fedora 15
Re: [Mageia-dev] [RFC] Update to gnome 31
On Mon, 11 Jul 2011 07:13:40 +0200, Dexter Morgan dmorga...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/7/11 JA Magallón jamagal...@ono.com: On Fri, 1 Jul 2011 14:50:43 +0200, Dexter Morgan dmorga...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/7/1 JA Magallón jamagal...@ono.com: On 2011.07.01, at 14:42, Dexter Morgan wrote: Hello, As gnome 3.2 will be available on october ( and in mageia 2 ) we will start to update now to gnome 3.1 to be able to report as many issues as possible upstream. Nice!! I have some questions in my queue, but will wait till new packages are there so they get solved automagically ;) i hope so :) Well, I had no luck... Some things that crash, I will try to find info and submit proper bug reports: - gdm crashed if I push down the power menu on the right top. Just press the icon, see the menu down and wait for the crash... - gnome-settings-daemon crashes both for gdm and for the normal user - the (in) famous BSOD (Oh, no! Something has gone wrong), that I relate to: one:~ grep register .xses*rs gnome-session[15939]: WARNING: Application 'gnome-shell.desktop' failed to register before timeout I can post full .xsession-errors if you find usefoull. yes i would appreciate your .xsession-errors please . Here it goes: /etc/X11/gdm/Xsession: Beginning session setup... /etc/X11/gdm/Xsession: Setup done, will execute: /usr/bin/ssh-agent -- /usr/share/X11/xdm/Xsession GNOME gnome-session[3403]: WARNING: Could not parse desktop file /home/magallon/.config/autostart/xfconf-migration-4.6.desktop: Key file does not have key 'Name' gnome-session[3403]: WARNING: could not read /home/magallon/.config/autostart/xfconf-migration-4.6.desktop gnome-session[3403]: WARNING: Could not parse desktop file /home/magallon/.config/autostart/xfce4-tips-autostart.desktop: Key file does not have key 'Name' gnome-session[3403]: WARNING: could not read /home/magallon/.config/autostart/xfce4-tips-autostart.desktop gnome-session[3403]: WARNING: Could not parse desktop file /home/magallon/.config/autostart/xfce4-settings-helper-autostart.desktop: Key file does not have key 'Name' gnome-session[3403]: WARNING: could not read /home/magallon/.config/autostart/xfce4-settings-helper-autostart.desktop gnome-session[3403]: WARNING: Could not parse desktop file /home/magallon/.config/autostart/xfce4-firstrun.desktop: Key file does not have key 'Name' gnome-session[3403]: WARNING: could not read /home/magallon/.config/autostart/xfce4-firstrun.desktop ** Message: couldn't connect to dbus session bus: Did not receive a reply. Possible causes include: the remote application did not send a reply, the message bus security policy blocked the reply, the reply timeout expired, or the network connection was broken. GNOME_KEYRING_CONTROL=/tmp/magallon/keyring-DNlFhp GPG_AGENT_INFO=/tmp/magallon/keyring-DNlFhp/gpg:0:1 GNOME_KEYRING_PID=3510 ** Message: couldn't connect to dbus session bus: Did not receive a reply. Possible causes include: the remote application did not send a reply, the message bus security policy blocked the reply, the reply timeout expired, or the network connection was broken. GNOME_KEYRING_CONTROL=/tmp/magallon/keyring-SeyQws GNOME_KEYRING_PID=3514 ** Message: couldn't connect to dbus session bus: Did not receive a reply. Possible causes include: the remote application did not send a reply, the message bus security policy blocked the reply, the reply timeout expired, or the network connection was broken. GNOME_KEYRING_CONTROL=/tmp/magallon/keyring-S53Crx SSH_AUTH_SOCK=/tmp/magallon/keyring-S53Crx/ssh GNOME_KEYRING_PID=3524 ** Message: couldn't connect to dbus session bus: Did not receive a reply. Possible causes include: the remote application did not send a reply, the message bus security policy blocked the reply, the reply timeout expired, or the network connection was broken. GNOME_KEYRING_CONTROL=/tmp/magallon/keyring-8Ocupz GNOME_KEYRING_PID=3528 (gnome-settings-daemon:3522): color-plugin-WARNING **: failed to enumerate directory /home/magallon/.color/icc: No such file or directory (gnome-settings-daemon:3522): common-plugin-WARNING **: Key 0x1008ffa9 (keycodes: 199) with state 0x0 (resolved to 0x0) has no usable modifiers (usable modifiers are 0x14ed) (gnome-settings-daemon:3522): common-plugin-WARNING **: Key 0x1008ffb0 (keycodes: 200) with state 0x0 (resolved to 0x0) has no usable modifiers (usable modifiers are 0x14ed) (gnome-settings-daemon:3522): common-plugin-WARNING **: Key 0x1008ffb1 (keycodes: 201) with state 0x0 (resolved to 0x0) has no usable modifiers (usable modifiers are 0x14ed) (gnome-settings-daemon:3522): common-plugin-WARNING **: Key 0x1008ff12 (keycodes: 121) with state 0x0 (resolved to 0x0) has no usable modifiers (usable modifiers are 0x14ed) (gnome-settings-daemon:3522): common-plugin-WARNING **: Key 0x1008ff11 (keycodes: 122) with state 0x0 (resolved to 0x0) has no
[Mageia-dev] kolab/horde upgrades
I am working on kolab upgrade which requirtes a lot of horde packages to be ugraded and/or added. Expect some breakage. -- Thomas
Re: [Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs?
Romain d'Alverny a écrit : On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 23:08, Balcaen Johnmik...@mageia.org wrote: On Tuesday 12 July 2011 16:48:58 andre999 wrote: [...] For all these reasons, I think that it is much more appropriate to wait to be approached by the patent holder. (If not ourselves, then some other distro.) I hope you're not serious when writing thoses lines. Actually, this is what seems to be a standard process in the industry when you read the headlines. One doesn't hear about (software) patents when licensing occurs as expected, but when someone in the industry challenges (or is challenged by) some other actor patent. Because that's the only way to prove a patent to be ineffective (for various reasons) before it expires. (I am not proposing one or the other option - and it's going out of the initial question in this thread - tmb reframed it well). Romain Ok. Part of my last post seems to have been overlooked. It proposes a solution to the problem presented in this thread ... where to put packages which qualify for both non-free and tainted. Note that all packages in tainted contain .tainted. in the name. rsync, used to update the mirrors, permits adding the option --exclude '.tainted.' to permit excluding such packages if a mirror wants to. So packages now in the tainted repos would be put in core or non-free as appropriate. And mirrors in affected countries, who choose to opt out of packages now in tainted would simply add the above rsync option. Most mirrors, which now carry tainted, would drop the tainted repos. (If they don't, these repos would simply become empty, so no harm done.) This would have the effect of making packages now in tainted more readily available, since it wouldn't be necessary to add these repos. Which should please the packagers that make these packages. We would have to make a few adjustments to show (or not) the packages tagged as tainted, but that shouldn't be difficult. So we would eliminate 10 respositories, while keeping the same functionality, as well as solving the non-free vs. tainted problem. Wouldn't that work ? -- André
Re: [Mageia-dev] Repository question: where do we put non-free+tainted RPMs?
On 12 July 2011 23:14, Renaud MICHEL r.h.michel+mag...@gmail.com wrote: On mardi 12 juillet 2011 at 22:48, andre999 wrote : I noticed that all packages in tainted contain .tainted. in the name. rsync permits adding the option --exclude '.tainted.' to permit excluding such packages if a mirror wants to. You should not do that, because you will end up with a broken repository, as the hdlist files will contain references to files which are not present on the mirror. A repository must be mirrored entirely or not at all. Yes, but then tainted is a separate repo, mirror admins can simply not mirror it if they want (that was one of the reasons why it _is_ a separate repo). So not mirroring tainted wouldn't break anything (other than that users won't get the full set of repos, but that's up to each mirror admin to decide, we only offer the option). (And I think it is already enough work for the mirror maintainers to have to exclude some directory, they surely don't want to maintain per mirror custom rules) -- Renaud Michel -- Ahmad Samir
[Mageia-dev] remove package
would someone with the powers remove php-pear-yaml from repo. I used the wrong name when importing should be php-symfony-YAML -- Thomas
