Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
On 10/03/12 10:12, Maarten Vanraes wrote: I have a pentium 66MHz (not MMX) With the turbo button 33 - 66 ? Man, that's a proper collector :)
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
Den 14:15 10. mars 2012 skrev eatdirt dirt...@gmail.com følgende: On 10/03/12 10:12, Maarten Vanraes wrote: I have a pentium 66MHz (not MMX) With a divide by zero bug? :o) With the turbo button 33 - 66 ? Man, that's a proper collector :) You're confusing with 486. :p -- Regards, Per Øyvind
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
Am 10.03.2012 14:15, schrieb eatdirt: On 10/03/12 10:12, Maarten Vanraes wrote: I have a pentium 66MHz (not MMX) With the turbo button 33 - 66 ? Man, that's a proper collector :) Normally turbo button was only effective for 468DX/586DX type of machines, not for pentium IIRC.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
Op zaterdag 10 maart 2012 22:06:09 schreef Florian Hubold: Am 10.03.2012 14:15, schrieb eatdirt: On 10/03/12 10:12, Maarten Vanraes wrote: I have a pentium 66MHz (not MMX) With the turbo button 33 - 66 ? Man, that's a proper collector :) Normally turbo button was only effective for 468DX/586DX type of machines, not for pentium IIRC. you likely mean 486/586 and alas 586 machines are called pentium there's a difference between pentium and pentium MMX though, even though i recall there are even pentium MMX's who had a turbo button... if it was really effective of not, that's another matter entirely...
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
On 09/03/12 00:58, Colin Guthrie wrote: If no one has a problem, I'll look to include the patch Well done! [got another reason for startx, my pentium 133MHz running mga.1 does not like kdm, even xdm :)] Thanks! chris.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
Le vendredi 9 mars 2012 23:56:28, eatdirt a écrit : [got another reason for startx, my pentium 133MHz running mga.1 does not like kdm, even xdm :)] Ah, I feel less alone (well, Pentium 166 MMX for my side.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
2012/3/8 Colin Guthrie mag...@colin.guthr.ie: 'Twas brillig, and Juan Luis Baptiste at 07/03/12 23:45 did gyre and gimble: On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 6:34 PM, Colin Guthrie mag...@colin.guthr.ie wrote: As I said last time to this question, I'd certainly be extremely annoyed if mga2 does not default to systemd. I've given up a massive amount of my free time over this cycle working towards this. I would be massively annoyed if this effort was ultimately towards a secondary option. Don't worry, no one has said that it shouldn't :), but it's clear there's a confusion as you have seen, many people understood that systemd would come as an alternative to mga2 and sysvinit as default, and systemd as default in mga3. I also remember reading last year this but never the change of plans, maybe it was decided on the meetinfgs, but as I can't attend to them because of the schedule I missed the announcement. Well that's just the thing, I don't see it as a change... As far as I'm concerned I've always been targeting a systemd-by-default mga2. I thought as well that this will be the case. Related question: Just started updates and urpmi asks me to select either - systemd-sysvinit or - sysvinit-legacy for installation. I suppose when using systemd I should install systemd-sysvinit, right? -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
On Wed, 7 Mar 2012, Charles A Edwards wrote: On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 22:06:19 + Colin Guthrie mag...@colin.guthr.ie wrote: The actual use case of using a text login and then starting X is quite small. Of course some people (like Wobo) do use this but it's definitely the exception rather than the rule. You can also add me to that 'small' list. +1 Dale Huckeby
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
'Twas brillig, and Wolfgang Bornath at 08/03/12 08:24 did gyre and gimble: 2012/3/8 Colin Guthrie mag...@colin.guthr.ie: 'Twas brillig, and Juan Luis Baptiste at 07/03/12 23:45 did gyre and gimble: On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 6:34 PM, Colin Guthrie mag...@colin.guthr.ie wrote: As I said last time to this question, I'd certainly be extremely annoyed if mga2 does not default to systemd. I've given up a massive amount of my free time over this cycle working towards this. I would be massively annoyed if this effort was ultimately towards a secondary option. Don't worry, no one has said that it shouldn't :), but it's clear there's a confusion as you have seen, many people understood that systemd would come as an alternative to mga2 and sysvinit as default, and systemd as default in mga3. I also remember reading last year this but never the change of plans, maybe it was decided on the meetinfgs, but as I can't attend to them because of the schedule I missed the announcement. Well that's just the thing, I don't see it as a change... As far as I'm concerned I've always been targeting a systemd-by-default mga2. I thought as well that this will be the case. Related question: Just started updates and urpmi asks me to select either - systemd-sysvinit or - sysvinit-legacy for installation. I suppose when using systemd I should install systemd-sysvinit, right? Yup! This should have happened earlier (in fact I thought it was already asking you that but with the sysvinit package called just sysvinit but it seems we needed to rename it to get urpmi to really do the right thing. Due to the vendor list, it should prefer the systemd version and thus pick it by default for you or use it without question if you pass --auto. Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
Le jeudi 8 mars 2012 03:08:03, Colin Guthrie a écrit : This is why I give far less credence to old habits and how it's been done in the past and much more to what would my mum expect or what would a novice computer user expect. I understand why you want to remove startx and I agree. But a lot of people dont't read this mailing list. My suggestion is to put in /usr/bin/startx #!/bin/sh echo startx is deprecated, use instead kdm or gdm or lxdm echo More informations on http://..; Then old linux users will be not not lost... for Mageia. -- Pierre Jarillon - http://pjarillon.free.fr/ Vice-président de l'ABUL : http://abul.org Microsoft est à l'informatique ce que McDonald est à la gastronomie
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
'Twas brillig, and Wolfgang Bornath at 08/03/12 13:06 did gyre and gimble: Yup! This should have happened earlier (in fact I thought it was already asking you that but with the sysvinit package called just sysvinit but it seems we needed to rename it to get urpmi to really do the right thing. Due to the vendor list, it should prefer the systemd version and thus pick it by default for you or use it without question if you pass --auto. Thx, after I selected '1' urpmi told me that the package sysvinit is going to be uninstalled. After installing 440 updates (including kernel) and reboot system comes up fine without any failure messages. Desktop (KDE) is on tty1, using ctrl+Alt+F2 (-F6) takes me to a text login on tty2-6 as expected. Lovely. tty7-11 are not accessible, tty12 shows syslog messages. Yeah, this is expected. If you like, you can configure getty's on tty7-11 if you set the NAutoVTs= to 11 (rather than the default of 6) in /etc/systemd/systemd-logind.conf Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
[Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
Hi, Unless someone comes along and does a reasonable amount of coding before mga2, I think we'll have to deprecate supporting startx (it can still be used in some circumstances, but audio and accelerated graphics will not be available). See this comment (and the link therein) for more info on the issue: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4652#c9 Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
Le 07/03/2012 10:26, Colin Guthrie a écrit : Hi, Unless someone comes along and does a reasonable amount of coding before mga2, I think we'll have to deprecate supporting startx (it can still be used in some circumstances, but audio and accelerated graphics will not be available). See this comment (and the link therein) for more info on the issue: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4652#c9 What is the operational translation of 'deprecating support of foo' ? automatic answer no support to any user reporting issue with it ? removing it from the distribution ? While I don't care about the first one, I do care about the second interpretation. Given the very high fragility of the gnome environment nowadays, using old-days tools to workaround those various issues is frequently useful. -- Radios will fail as soon as you need fire support -- Murphy's Military Laws n°71
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
On 7 March 2012 11:05, Guillaume Rousse guillomovi...@gmail.com wrote: Unless someone comes along and does a reasonable amount of coding before mga2, I think we'll have to deprecate supporting startx (it can still be used in some circumstances, but audio and accelerated graphics will not be available). See this comment (and the link therein) for more info on the issue: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4652#c9 What is the operational translation of 'deprecating support of foo' ? automatic answer no support to any user reporting issue with it ? removing it from the distribution ? While I don't care about the first one, I do care about the second interpretation. Given the very high fragility of the gnome environment nowadays, using old-days tools to workaround those various issues is frequently useful. Indeed. I don't care about a few missing ACLs that I can workaround. startx isn't for beginners anyway...
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
Am 07.03.2012 11:05, schrieb Guillaume Rousse: Le 07/03/2012 10:26, Colin Guthrie a écrit : Hi, Unless someone comes along and does a reasonable amount of coding before mga2, I think we'll have to deprecate supporting startx (it can still be used in some circumstances, but audio and accelerated graphics will not be available). See this comment (and the link therein) for more info on the issue: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4652#c9 What is the operational translation of 'deprecating support of foo' ? automatic answer no support to any user reporting issue with it ? removing it from the distribution ? While I don't care about the first one, I do care about the second interpretation. Given the very high fragility of the gnome environment nowadays, using old-days tools to workaround those various issues is frequently useful. Well, deprecating something usually means: it's still there, but will be removed somewhen in the future. So find something else... Doesn't it? Oliver
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
2012/3/7 Guillaume Rousse guillomovi...@gmail.com: Le 07/03/2012 10:26, Colin Guthrie a écrit : Hi, Unless someone comes along and does a reasonable amount of coding before mga2, I think we'll have to deprecate supporting startx (it can still be used in some circumstances, but audio and accelerated graphics will not be available). See this comment (and the link therein) for more info on the issue: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4652#c9 What is the operational translation of 'deprecating support of foo' ? automatic answer no support to any user reporting issue with it ? removing it from the distribution ? While I don't care about the first one, I do care about the second interpretation. Given the very high fragility of the gnome environment nowadays, using old-days tools to workaround those various issues is frequently useful. Different from Guillaume I do care about the impact for the user. There are many out there who are used to startx and also docs and howtos which use it. Therefore we will need an explanation for switching off startx. An explanation to be used in forums, which is a bit more than just a link to a bug report. In other words: to be understood by non-techie users. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
On 07/03/12 10:26, Colin Guthrie wrote: Hi, Unless someone comes along and does a reasonable amount of coding before mga2, I think we'll have to deprecate supporting startx (it can still be used in some circumstances, but audio and accelerated graphics will not be available). See this comment (and the link therein) for more info on the issue: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4652#c9 Hi there, as many, I don't understand (yet, it not ever) systemd :) But what do you mean? An user could no longer starts in runlevel 3 and start an X session directly ? This is the way we actually debug X, that sounds very unreasonable to me. Cheers, Chris.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
'Twas brillig, and EatDirt at 07/03/12 10:18 did gyre and gimble: On 07/03/12 10:26, Colin Guthrie wrote: Hi, Unless someone comes along and does a reasonable amount of coding before mga2, I think we'll have to deprecate supporting startx (it can still be used in some circumstances, but audio and accelerated graphics will not be available). See this comment (and the link therein) for more info on the issue: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4652#c9 Hi there, as many, I don't understand (yet, it not ever) systemd :) But what do you mean? systemd tracks and manages user sessions. i.e. it takes over the role of console-kit which had many design flaws and generally makes a good job of managing sessions properly without any nasty hacks or work arounds. An user could no longer starts in runlevel 3 and start an X session directly ? This is the way we actually debug X, that sounds very unreasonable to me. Users can still technically run startx, but the user session will not be seen as active and thus all sorts of things break with regards to setting ACLs on device nodes - e.g. on /dev/snd/* /dev/dri/* etc. Other things relating to session management will also likely break. You can still debug X but only for an actual X server. Anyway even when I was maintaining X a few years back, I don't think I ever started it from the text console. I always used the official methods for starting X (service dm restart in those days). So not sure it's really all that needed for debugging. Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
'Twas brillig, and Wolfgang Bornath at 07/03/12 10:13 did gyre and gimble: 2012/3/7 Guillaume Rousse guillomovi...@gmail.com: Le 07/03/2012 10:26, Colin Guthrie a écrit : Hi, Unless someone comes along and does a reasonable amount of coding before mga2, I think we'll have to deprecate supporting startx (it can still be used in some circumstances, but audio and accelerated graphics will not be available). See this comment (and the link therein) for more info on the issue: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4652#c9 What is the operational translation of 'deprecating support of foo' ? automatic answer no support to any user reporting issue with it ? removing it from the distribution ? While I don't care about the first one, I do care about the second interpretation. Given the very high fragility of the gnome environment nowadays, using old-days tools to workaround those various issues is frequently useful. Different from Guillaume I do care about the impact for the user. There are many out there who are used to startx and also docs and howtos which use it. Therefore we will need an explanation for switching off startx. An explanation to be used in forums, which is a bit more than just a link to a bug report. In other words: to be understood by non-techie users. To answer Guillaume's question, I wasn't personally planning on removing it fully. Just documenting that it is broken and that users should not use this as a mechanism for starting X. I would propose just putting in echo 'startx is deprecated. Here is why. Press any key to continue anyway.' 2; read -n 1 in the startx script such that users using it will be warned. Does this seem sensible? Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
On 07/03/12 12:12, Colin Guthrie wrote: You can still debug X but only for an actual X server. Anyway even when I was maintaining X a few years back, I don't think I ever started it from the text console. I always used the official methods for starting X (service dm restart in those days). So not sure it's really all that needed for debugging. Thanks for the explanations. If this is a matter of ACL only, I would let startx existing even of sound or acceleration is not working. I also remember mandriva times for which the dm was not working. Or simple than that, when hald was switched off and autoadddevice=false, startx was usefull to open a X session. Cheers, Chris.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
2012/3/7 Colin Guthrie mag...@colin.guthr.ie: 'Twas brillig, and Wolfgang Bornath at 07/03/12 10:13 did gyre and gimble: Different from Guillaume I do care about the impact for the user. There are many out there who are used to startx and also docs and howtos which use it. Therefore we will need an explanation for switching off startx. An explanation to be used in forums, which is a bit more than just a link to a bug report. In other words: to be understood by non-techie users. To answer Guillaume's question, I wasn't personally planning on removing it fully. Just documenting that it is broken and that users should not use this as a mechanism for starting X. I would propose just putting in echo 'startx is deprecated. Here is why. Press any key to continue anyway.' 2; read -n 1 in the startx script such that users using it will be warned. Does this seem sensible? It is sensible and enough for the situation at hand (when the user actually punches in startx and the command does not work as expected). In principle on the same level of information like file not found. That's all which is needed from the technical side. People more close to the users will have to think of an explanation without tech-talk, understandable for the user who comes to the forum complaining that the command he had been using for many years (or which is written in a documentation) does not work. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
'Twas brillig, and Wolfgang Bornath at 07/03/12 12:02 did gyre and gimble: 2012/3/7 Colin Guthrie mag...@colin.guthr.ie: 'Twas brillig, and Wolfgang Bornath at 07/03/12 10:13 did gyre and gimble: Different from Guillaume I do care about the impact for the user. There are many out there who are used to startx and also docs and howtos which use it. Therefore we will need an explanation for switching off startx. An explanation to be used in forums, which is a bit more than just a link to a bug report. In other words: to be understood by non-techie users. To answer Guillaume's question, I wasn't personally planning on removing it fully. Just documenting that it is broken and that users should not use this as a mechanism for starting X. I would propose just putting in echo 'startx is deprecated. Here is why. Press any key to continue anyway.' 2; read -n 1 in the startx script such that users using it will be warned. Does this seem sensible? It is sensible and enough for the situation at hand (when the user actually punches in startx and the command does not work as expected). In principle on the same level of information like file not found. That's all which is needed from the technical side. People more close to the users will have to think of an explanation without tech-talk, understandable for the user who comes to the forum complaining that the command he had been using for many years (or which is written in a documentation) does not work. For the avoidance of doubt, I would expect that hitting return would still end up starting X, just that the afore mentioned (and dutifully explained to the user) problems with ACLs etc. will be present. I'll be able to write some text here that is concise, so I'll do this shortly. Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
2012/3/7 Colin Guthrie mag...@colin.guthr.ie: 'Twas brillig, and Wolfgang Bornath at 07/03/12 12:02 did gyre and gimble: 2012/3/7 Colin Guthrie mag...@colin.guthr.ie: 'Twas brillig, and Wolfgang Bornath at 07/03/12 10:13 did gyre and gimble: Different from Guillaume I do care about the impact for the user. There are many out there who are used to startx and also docs and howtos which use it. Therefore we will need an explanation for switching off startx. An explanation to be used in forums, which is a bit more than just a link to a bug report. In other words: to be understood by non-techie users. To answer Guillaume's question, I wasn't personally planning on removing it fully. Just documenting that it is broken and that users should not use this as a mechanism for starting X. I would propose just putting in echo 'startx is deprecated. Here is why. Press any key to continue anyway.' 2; read -n 1 in the startx script such that users using it will be warned. Does this seem sensible? It is sensible and enough for the situation at hand (when the user actually punches in startx and the command does not work as expected). In principle on the same level of information like file not found. That's all which is needed from the technical side. People more close to the users will have to think of an explanation without tech-talk, understandable for the user who comes to the forum complaining that the command he had been using for many years (or which is written in a documentation) does not work. For the avoidance of doubt, I would expect that hitting return would still end up starting X, just that the afore mentioned (and dutifully explained to the user) problems with ACLs etc. will be present. I'll be able to write some text here that is concise, so I'll do this shortly. Great! Now I'll have to teach this waltzing greybeard in the mirror some new moves :) -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
On Wednesday 07 March 2012 10:26, Colin Guthrie wrote: I think we'll have to deprecate supporting startx What should we use instead? -- Johnny A. Solbu PGP key ID: 0xFA687324 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
Hello Colin, On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 11:15:29 + Colin Guthrie mag...@colin.guthr.ie wrote: 'Twas brillig, and Wolfgang Bornath at 07/03/12 10:13 did gyre and gimble: 2012/3/7 Guillaume Rousse guillomovi...@gmail.com: Le 07/03/2012 10:26, Colin Guthrie a écrit : Hi, Unless someone comes along and does a reasonable amount of coding before mga2, I think we'll have to deprecate supporting startx (it can still be used in some circumstances, but audio and accelerated graphics will not be available). See this comment (and the link therein) for more info on the issue: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4652#c9 What is the operational translation of 'deprecating support of foo' ? automatic answer no support to any user reporting issue with it ? removing it from the distribution ? While I don't care about the first one, I do care about the second interpretation. Given the very high fragility of the gnome environment nowadays, using old-days tools to workaround those various issues is frequently useful. Different from Guillaume I do care about the impact for the user. There are many out there who are used to startx and also docs and howtos which use it. Therefore we will need an explanation for switching off startx. An explanation to be used in forums, which is a bit more than just a link to a bug report. In other words: to be understood by non-techie users. To answer Guillaume's question, I wasn't personally planning on removing it fully. Just documenting that it is broken and that users should not use this as a mechanism for starting X. I would propose just putting in echo 'startx is deprecated. Here is why. Press any key to continue anyway.' 2; read -n 1 in the startx script such that users using it will be warned. Does this seem sensible? Having to press this every time will drive me nuts. If you are going to do it, please also use an optional environment variable to trigger it off. In any case, as an active user of startx, I do not appreciate the fact that it will get deprecated. I don't like to start X automatically on startup because that causes problem if there is problem with the X environment in general, or with the graphics' driver etc. I tried starting up kdm from the command line but could only start it as root, and it returned to the login screen after I exited X (which is expected, but undesirable), and could only be killed by root. Luckily for me (and for Mageia) I am a programmer and can write the required code to make startx play nice with the rest of systemd again. I'll read the URL of the bug and see what is needed and hopefully with some guidance from the people on Freenode, will make it work. If anyone wants to help, I'm rindolf there and I'm also reachable by other forms of IM and by other means: http://www.shlomifish.org/me/contact-me/ Regards, Shlomi Fish (who is frustrated at the amount of problems the transition to systemd has caused). -- - Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Free (Creative Commons) Music Downloads, Reviews and more - http://jamendo.com/ I hope that you agree with me that 99.9218485921% of the users wouldn’t bother themselves with recompilation (or any other manual step for that matter) to make their games run 1.27127529900685765% faster ;-) — Nadav Har’El Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
'Twas brillig, and Shlomi Fish at 07/03/12 14:09 did gyre and gimble: Hello Colin, On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 11:15:29 + Colin Guthrie mag...@colin.guthr.ie wrote: 'Twas brillig, and Wolfgang Bornath at 07/03/12 10:13 did gyre and gimble: 2012/3/7 Guillaume Rousse guillomovi...@gmail.com: Le 07/03/2012 10:26, Colin Guthrie a écrit : Hi, Unless someone comes along and does a reasonable amount of coding before mga2, I think we'll have to deprecate supporting startx (it can still be used in some circumstances, but audio and accelerated graphics will not be available). See this comment (and the link therein) for more info on the issue: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4652#c9 What is the operational translation of 'deprecating support of foo' ? automatic answer no support to any user reporting issue with it ? removing it from the distribution ? While I don't care about the first one, I do care about the second interpretation. Given the very high fragility of the gnome environment nowadays, using old-days tools to workaround those various issues is frequently useful. Different from Guillaume I do care about the impact for the user. There are many out there who are used to startx and also docs and howtos which use it. Therefore we will need an explanation for switching off startx. An explanation to be used in forums, which is a bit more than just a link to a bug report. In other words: to be understood by non-techie users. To answer Guillaume's question, I wasn't personally planning on removing it fully. Just documenting that it is broken and that users should not use this as a mechanism for starting X. I would propose just putting in echo 'startx is deprecated. Here is why. Press any key to continue anyway.' 2; read -n 1 in the startx script such that users using it will be warned. Does this seem sensible? Having to press this every time will drive me nuts. If you are going to do it, please also use an optional environment variable to trigger it off. Env var or a switch to pass to it (and you could then put alias startx='startx --no-session-warning' or similar in your bashrc? Thinking about this, it might make more sense to warn the user AFTER they have logged in... e.g. via zenity or knotify or similar. But again with the option to hide it still) Luckily for me (and for Mageia) I am a programmer and can write the required code to make startx play nice with the rest of systemd again. I'll read the URL of the bug and see what is needed and hopefully with some guidance from the people on Freenode, will make it work. If anyone wants to help, I'm rindolf there and I'm also reachable by other forms of IM and by other means: It would be nice if you wanted to take on this project. Basically you'd be writing a DM (like gdm) which is able to talk to PAM and do all those things needed for proper session management. Of course your DM would be very much cut down - i.e. it would not actually have any UI, but just implement and autologin system. I'd imagine how it would work is that your program would be installed as setuid, thus regular users can run it, it can find the username who run it and store that, then call the necessary commands to gain root privileges, do the whole pam conversation and then login the user. This will require a specific PAM config (e.g. /etc/pam.d/startx) to allow passwordless authentication for your user. This is just a very rough overview of what would be needed. Good luck :) Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
Em 07-03-2012 10:26, Colin Guthrie escreveu: Hi, Unless someone comes along and does a reasonable amount of coding before mga2, I think we'll have to deprecate supporting startx (it can still be used in some circumstances, but audio and accelerated graphics will not be available). Now I know where the same problem with autologin comes from ;-) I suppose using sysvinit allows to still use startx and autologin, so I will work at least without systemd. Maybe we could only add this information to the Errata, along with an howto use sysvinit? If I followed things well, upgrades from MGA1 will continue using sysvinit, so people won't get this regression on upgrades?
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
2012/3/7 Zézinho lists.jjo...@free.fr: Em 07-03-2012 10:26, Colin Guthrie escreveu: Hi, Unless someone comes along and does a reasonable amount of coding before mga2, I think we'll have to deprecate supporting startx (it can still be used in some circumstances, but audio and accelerated graphics will not be available). Now I know where the same problem with autologin comes from ;-) I suppose using sysvinit allows to still use startx and autologin, so I will work at least without systemd. Maybe we could only add this information to the Errata, along with an howto use sysvinit? If I followed things well, upgrades from MGA1 will continue using sysvinit, so people won't get this regression on upgrades? Would it not be counterproductive, having 2 very different types of systems with lots of different possible causes for problems? -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
'Twas brillig, and Johnny A. Solbu at 07/03/12 13:53 did gyre and gimble: On Wednesday 07 March 2012 10:26, Colin Guthrie wrote: I think we'll have to deprecate supporting startx What should we use instead? A graphical login agent - i.e gdm, kdm, lxdm etc. Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
'Twas brillig, and Zézinho at 07/03/12 15:32 did gyre and gimble: Em 07-03-2012 10:26, Colin Guthrie escreveu: Hi, Unless someone comes along and does a reasonable amount of coding before mga2, I think we'll have to deprecate supporting startx (it can still be used in some circumstances, but audio and accelerated graphics will not be available). Now I know where the same problem with autologin comes from ;-) Kinda, but really the autologin package should do the whole pam conversation stuff itself, so it *should* be possible to make that work. I suppose using sysvinit allows to still use startx and autologin, so I will work at least without systemd. For the time being, we will still support sysvinit and console-kit. Using console-kit will still work (although various caveats are still present in the way that console-kit tracks sessions (clue: It really doesn't do any tracking at all!). Maybe we could only add this information to the Errata, along with an howto use sysvinit? I'd rather not. We want people to use systemd by default and while sysvinit will still limp on in mga2 it's definitely going to be a second class citizen. If I followed things well, upgrades from MGA1 will continue using sysvinit, so people won't get this regression on upgrades? No, they will get systemd. We just need to resolve an issue with the upgrade to make this happen properly (could be a urpmi bug or something similar). Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
2012/3/7 Colin Guthrie mag...@colin.guthr.ie: 'Twas brillig, and Johnny A. Solbu at 07/03/12 13:53 did gyre and gimble: On Wednesday 07 March 2012 10:26, Colin Guthrie wrote: I think we'll have to deprecate supporting startx What should we use instead? A graphical login agent - i.e gdm, kdm, lxdm etc. Nice try! What do I use on a minimal netbook installation where all I have in X is an Xterm and a few applications (using mc in the xterm as menue and application starter? Until today I'm using startx if I want to start X on this machine (most of the time I do not use X there). This is one of the new moves I have to learn (not mentioning the tty chaos). -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
07.03.2012 18:20, Colin Guthrie skrev: No, they will get systemd. We just need to resolve an issue with the upgrade to make this happen properly (could be a urpmi bug or something similar). I have now renamed sysvinit to sysvinit-legacy And both sysvinit-legacy and systemd-sysvinit provides sysvinit. And we have systemd-sysvinit in prefer.vendor.list so upgrades will now choose systemd by default -- Thomas
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
On Wednesday 07 March 2012 17:16, Colin Guthrie wrote: What should we use instead? A graphical login agent - i.e gdm, kdm, lxdm etc. In other words, we should no longer use runlevel 3 as default? There are multiuser systems where running a graphical login agent is undesireable, for whatever reason. -- Johnny A. Solbu PGP key ID: 0xFA687324 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
07.03.2012 21:32, Johnny A. Solbu skrev: On Wednesday 07 March 2012 17:16, Colin Guthrie wrote: What should we use instead? A graphical login agent - i.e gdm, kdm, lxdm etc. In other words, we should no longer use runlevel 3 as default? There are multiuser systems where running a graphical login agent is undesireable, for whatever reason. No. we need runlevel 3 to work too. It's insane to expect to have to run any graphical stuff on servers / routers / ... But for most desktop users graphical login is wanted... -- Thomas
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
Le mercredi 7 mars 2012 17:56:46, Thomas Backlund a écrit : 07.03.2012 18:20, Colin Guthrie skrev: No, they will get systemd. We just need to resolve an issue with the upgrade to make this happen properly (could be a urpmi bug or something similar). I have now renamed sysvinit to sysvinit-legacy And both sysvinit-legacy and systemd-sysvinit provides sysvinit. And we have systemd-sysvinit in prefer.vendor.list so upgrades will now choose systemd by default I apparently missed a few meetings or e-mails where this was discussed, but wasn't the initial plan to keep sysvinit by default in mga2 and switch to systemd by default in mga3? Wasn't the switch to systemd by default in cauldron a temporary switch in order to get more testing? Samuel
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
Op woensdag 07 maart 2012 22:34:50 schreef Samuel Verschelde: [...] I apparently missed a few meetings or e-mails where this was discussed, but wasn't the initial plan to keep sysvinit by default in mga2 and switch to systemd by default in mga3? Wasn't the switch to systemd by default in cauldron a temporary switch in order to get more testing? Samuel that is what i originally thought too, but i guess i was mistaken
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
'Twas brillig, and Thomas Backlund at 07/03/12 19:41 did gyre and gimble: 07.03.2012 21:32, Johnny A. Solbu skrev: On Wednesday 07 March 2012 17:16, Colin Guthrie wrote: What should we use instead? A graphical login agent - i.e gdm, kdm, lxdm etc. In other words, we should no longer use runlevel 3 as default? There are multiuser systems where running a graphical login agent is undesireable, for whatever reason. No. we need runlevel 3 to work too. It's insane to expect to have to run any graphical stuff on servers / routers / ... But for most desktop users graphical login is wanted... Exactly. multi-user.target (aka runlevel 3) is still needed for servers. There is no problem in using this mode. graphical.target (aka runlevel 5) is for users who want a graphical system, again there is no problem with this mode and it is meant to run a graphical login agent. The actual use case of using a text login and then starting X is quite small. Of course some people (like Wobo) do use this but it's definitely the exception rather than the rule. That's why it's not too much of a problem overall IMO. And like I say, this is something other distros have already done (OpenSUSE, Fedora). Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
'Twas brillig, and Thomas Backlund at 07/03/12 16:56 did gyre and gimble: 07.03.2012 18:20, Colin Guthrie skrev: No, they will get systemd. We just need to resolve an issue with the upgrade to make this happen properly (could be a urpmi bug or something similar). I have now renamed sysvinit to sysvinit-legacy And both sysvinit-legacy and systemd-sysvinit provides sysvinit. And we have systemd-sysvinit in prefer.vendor.list so upgrades will now choose systemd by default Awesome, thanks :) Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
'Twas brillig, and Samuel Verschelde at 07/03/12 21:34 did gyre and gimble: Le mercredi 7 mars 2012 17:56:46, Thomas Backlund a écrit : 07.03.2012 18:20, Colin Guthrie skrev: No, they will get systemd. We just need to resolve an issue with the upgrade to make this happen properly (could be a urpmi bug or something similar). I have now renamed sysvinit to sysvinit-legacy And both sysvinit-legacy and systemd-sysvinit provides sysvinit. And we have systemd-sysvinit in prefer.vendor.list so upgrades will now choose systemd by default I apparently missed a few meetings or e-mails where this was discussed, but wasn't the initial plan to keep sysvinit by default in mga2 and switch to systemd by default in mga3? Wasn't the switch to systemd by default in cauldron a temporary switch in order to get more testing? Nope, this was never the case. The idea was to switch to systemd in mga2, but still support sysvinit. By mga3 we'll drop sysvinit completely. We very much want to encourage the use of systemd in this release. Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:34 PM, Samuel Verschelde sto...@laposte.net wrote: I apparently missed a few meetings or e-mails where this was discussed, but wasn't the initial plan to keep sysvinit by default in mga2 and switch to systemd by default in mga3? Wasn't the switch to systemd by default in cauldron a temporary switch in order to get more testing? Yeah, many have asked about this, if this was decided it seems this decision wasn't announced to this list, I can't find the email talking about this, just about ppl like you and Maarten asking when did this change. Cheers, -- Juancho
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
'Twas brillig, and Juan Luis Baptiste at 07/03/12 22:08 did gyre and gimble: On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 4:34 PM, Samuel Verschelde sto...@laposte.net wrote: I apparently missed a few meetings or e-mails where this was discussed, but wasn't the initial plan to keep sysvinit by default in mga2 and switch to systemd by default in mga3? Wasn't the switch to systemd by default in cauldron a temporary switch in order to get more testing? Yeah, many have asked about this, if this was decided it seems this decision wasn't announced to this list, I can't find the email talking about this, just about ppl like you and Maarten asking when did this change. It's my understanding that it was always the intention to default to systemd in mga2. Certainly the last couple times people have asked exactly the same question on this list, this has been confirmed. As I said last time to this question, I'd certainly be extremely annoyed if mga2 does not default to systemd. I've given up a massive amount of my free time over this cycle working towards this. I would be massively annoyed if this effort was ultimately towards a secondary option. Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 6:34 PM, Colin Guthrie mag...@colin.guthr.ie wrote: As I said last time to this question, I'd certainly be extremely annoyed if mga2 does not default to systemd. I've given up a massive amount of my free time over this cycle working towards this. I would be massively annoyed if this effort was ultimately towards a secondary option. Don't worry, no one has said that it shouldn't :), but it's clear there's a confusion as you have seen, many people understood that systemd would come as an alternative to mga2 and sysvinit as default, and systemd as default in mga3. I also remember reading last year this but never the change of plans, maybe it was decided on the meetinfgs, but as I can't attend to them because of the schedule I missed the announcement. -- Juancho
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
On Wed, 07 Mar 2012 22:06:19 + Colin Guthrie mag...@colin.guthr.ie wrote: The actual use case of using a text login and then starting X is quite small. Of course some people (like Wobo) do use this but it's definitely the exception rather than the rule. You can also add me to that 'small' list. Charles -- Let the meek inherit the earth -- they have it coming to them. -- James Thurber -- Mageia release 2 (Cauldron) for x86_64$ On SuperSizehttp://www.eslrahc.com Registered Linux user #182463 3.2.9-server-2.mga2 x86_64 -- signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
'Twas brillig, and Juan Luis Baptiste at 07/03/12 23:45 did gyre and gimble: On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 6:34 PM, Colin Guthrie mag...@colin.guthr.ie wrote: As I said last time to this question, I'd certainly be extremely annoyed if mga2 does not default to systemd. I've given up a massive amount of my free time over this cycle working towards this. I would be massively annoyed if this effort was ultimately towards a secondary option. Don't worry, no one has said that it shouldn't :), but it's clear there's a confusion as you have seen, many people understood that systemd would come as an alternative to mga2 and sysvinit as default, and systemd as default in mga3. I also remember reading last year this but never the change of plans, maybe it was decided on the meetinfgs, but as I can't attend to them because of the schedule I missed the announcement. Well that's just the thing, I don't see it as a change... As far as I'm concerned I've always been targeting a systemd-by-default mga2. Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Deprecating startx
On Thu, 08 Mar 2012 02:08:03 + Colin Guthrie mag...@colin.guthr.ie wrote: You can also add me to that 'small' list. You seem unconvinced due to your use of quotes. It's very hard to evaluate this kind of thing, but obviously developery types are a skewed source of information. I was being facetious.. There in no doubt that this places me in a minuscule minority. But I can/will adapt and either find/develop a work-a-round or learn to live with using a dm. Charles -- Schapiro's Explanation: The grass is always greener on the other side -- but that's because they use more manure. -- Mageia release 2 (Cauldron) for x86_64$ On SuperSizehttp://www.eslrahc.com Registered Linux user #182463 3.2.9-server-2.mga2 x86_64 -- signature.asc Description: PGP signature
