Re: [Mageia-dev] Update of the rpm group policy
Le 08/09/12 13:39,Thierry Vignaud nous adresse ces quelques mots : Yes it may be better. _Then_, we'll need to update http://svnweb.mageia.org/soft/rpmdrake/trunk/Rpmdrake/icon.pm?view=markup By the way, the installer sorts packages in a different way. How is it done? Is it based on the rpm groups? Is it documented? Thanks, -- Malo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Update of the rpm group policy
Le 08/09/12 01:13,Pierre-Malo Deniélou nous adresse ces quelques mots : Hi all, I'm writing about the current rpm group policy: http://wiki.mageia.org/en/RPM_groups_policy Hi again, After a few days of thinking, I wrote a proposal in the form of Feature. You can have a look at the following wiki page: http://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:RPMGroupRevamp At the end you can see the current RPM groups, with the number of packages they contain (in x86_64 with i586 activated). On the right is the current version of the proposal. The main changes are so far: - Remove Books/* - everything in Documentation * Reason: All books currently in Mageia are documentations of some kind - Add several Development/* to reduce Development/Other * Reason Development/Other is cluttered with various programming languages and development tools. - Add Games/Shooter to reduce Games/Arcade and Games/Other - Split Office into Office/Dictionary, Office/Finance, ... - Split Sound into Sound/Editors and Convertors, Sound/Midi, ... - Split Video into Video/Editors and Convertors, Video/Players, ... The last problems that I think need addressing are: 1) Graphical Desktop/FVWM based contains only fvwm2: * Should we leave it like this * Or should we delete the group and move fvwm2 to Graphical Desktop/Other ? 2) Graphics has 441 packages currently: * Should we leave it like this * Or should we split it into + Graphics/Editor + Graphics/Convertors + Graphics/Viewers + Graphics/Other * Or any other idea? 3) System/Server has 1016 packages, from daemons to web, FTP, DNS, chat, ... servers, as well as Web applications. * Should we leave it like this * Or should we split the different Networking subgroups into + Networking/*/Client + Networking/*/Server + Networking/*/Utilities with maybe Networking/WWW/Browser instead of Client and Networking/WWW/Web Applications * Or any other idea? Please have a look at http://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:RPMGroupRevamp and comment on the list (rather than directly modifying the wiki page). Please also give your opinion about the 3 remaining issues above. If you have any other issue with some other categories, just tell me. The goal is that rpmdrake and mageia App Db get easier to browse for technical and non-technical users. I think that categories with more than a few hundreds packages are too big (unless specifically addresses to technical users, like Development/* or System/*). I hope we can discuss this proposal at the next packager meeting. Thanks, -- Malo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Update of the rpm group policy
Le 10/09/12 14:50,brian.sm...@blueyonder.co.uk nous adresse ces quelques mots : I'll stick my 2p in as a user How about the package groups relate to the menu entries in Gnome and KDE. Hi Brian, I forgot to answer you. Thanks for your suggestion. It's a possibility as well. The standard desktop categories are: http://standards.freedesktop.org/menu-spec/latest/apa.html I didn't consider it as a first proposal for two reasons: - It is designed for applications that have a menu entry. So it needs to be amended for all non-GUI packages: it means we do not follow strictly the standard. - These categories are completely different from the current RPM groups. It means *all* of Mageia packages need to be changed. The advantages: - It makes it easier to have only one classification policy. - It is a standard (although not for packages, but still). - Users can make more sense of it, since the menu and rpm group match - Icons already exist So this is a possible alternative, but requires even more commitment from the packagers. -- Malo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Update of the rpm group policy
On 08/09/12 19:07, Pierre-Malo Deniélou wrote: Any other suggestions for the groups? gnuradio is development software for software enabled radio, so Communications/Development Amateur Radio is needed as a group for packages like grig and xlog, so maybe: Communications/Amateur Radio cutecw is a Morse Code trainer aimed at radio amateurs so: Communications/Amateur Radio/Education zoneminder is currently in Video which is rather cluttered. I think Video needs sub-groups like:- Video/Players Video/Editors Video/Security Video/Format converters Video/Plug-ins Also, why has gpg got it's own top level 'Public Keys' group which clutters rpmdrake - surely this should be somewhere down the System/.. hierarchy? My 2 cents ;) Barry
Re: [Mageia-dev] Update of the rpm group policy
On Monday 10 Sep 2012 11:53:30 Barry Jackson wrote: On 08/09/12 19:07, Pierre-Malo Deniélou wrote: Any other suggestions for the groups? gnuradio is development software for software enabled radio, so Communications/Development Amateur Radio is needed as a group for packages like grig and xlog, so maybe: Communications/Amateur Radio cutecw is a Morse Code trainer aimed at radio amateurs so: Communications/Amateur Radio/Education zoneminder is currently in Video which is rather cluttered. I think Video needs sub-groups like:- Video/Players Video/Editors Video/Security Video/Format converters Video/Plug-ins Also, why has gpg got it's own top level 'Public Keys' group which clutters rpmdrake - surely this should be somewhere down the System/.. hierarchy? My 2 cents ;) Barry I'll stick my 2p in as a user How about the package groups relate to the menu entries in Gnome and KDE.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Update of the rpm group policy
Le 10/09/12 11:53,Barry Jackson nous adresse ces quelques mots : On 08/09/12 19:07, Pierre-Malo Deniélou wrote: Any other suggestions for the groups? gnuradio is development software for software enabled radio, so Communications/Development Amateur Radio is needed as a group for packages like grig and xlog, so maybe: Communications/Amateur Radio cutecw is a Morse Code trainer aimed at radio amateurs so: Communications/Amateur Radio/Education zoneminder is currently in Video which is rather cluttered. I think Video needs sub-groups like:- Video/Players Video/Editors Video/Security Video/Format converters Video/Plug-ins Doing changes like this would mean to go towards a more Suse-like system, with hundreds of rpm package groups that each contain a few packages. That is one option, but it requires to updates the specs of several thousands packages. My proposal is more limited: - let's split the groups that have obviously too many different packages (Development/Other is an example) to the point that it is unpractical to browse. - let's create a handful of categories that (1) make sense for packages that are currently in unrelated groups (motivated by security software for example); and (2) complete existing subdivisions (so as not to have to change the spec of too many packages) Only creating a few groups also lessens the burden for icons and translations. With that in mind, I'm not sure this is a good idea to get so fine-grained categories in Video, or communications, especially if it's just for one package. Maybe if we create a Security group, things like zoneminder can go there. For amateur radio, in communication it's fine IMHO. Communications has 138 packages, so it's reasonable. Also, why has gpg got it's own top level 'Public Keys' group which clutters rpmdrake - surely this should be somewhere down the System/.. hierarchy? The public key thing does not correspond to a rpm group. It's a rpmdrake GUI choice of how to display keys AFAICT. Feel free to suggest to tv another choice for the display :-). Cheers, -- Malo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Update of the rpm group policy
On Sat, Sep 08, 2012 at 01:13:22AM +0100, Pierre-Malo wrote in 504a8da2.5030...@rhul.ac.uk: Hi all, I'm writing about the current rpm group policy: http://wiki.mageia.org/en/RPM_groups_policy In this list, there are some groups that contain only a handful of packages while some others are in the hundreds. It sometimes makes it very hard to use rpmdrake (or other tools) to browse the packages. It is not a bug per se, but rather an interface issue, particularly with inexperienced users. My interest lies in particular in the Development/Other group. It is currently a mess, mixing up programming tools with libraries and compilers for the non-major programming languages. Among them, there are now 300 packages for OCaml-related packages. I propose we create a Development/OCaml group for them. I also noticed that despite our policy not having a Development/Tools rpm group, some packages started using it (I guess because Fedora and Suse have a Development/Tools group). I think this is a good idea and we could move there various tools currently in Development/Other like cvs, subversion (and all vcs), valgrind, make, autoconf, etc. If you agree, I will amend our http://wiki.mageia.org/en/RPM_groups_policy with these two changes and get in touch with the appropriate packagers/maintainers to do the group change (which is a trivial spec change). Hi Malo, I am in agreement with your proposal above, but I think the RPM groups policy need a wider overhaul. For examples, I miss categories for scheduling and productivity, as well as a category for personal finances, etc. As these changes also mean an update to our rpmlint package, I think it is best if someone drafts up a list of the needed changes and presents that in an upcoming dev team meeting for sanctioning. Remmy pgp1OMINK2KRn.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Mageia-dev] Update of the rpm group policy
On 8 September 2012 14:29, Remco Rijnders re...@webconquest.com wrote: I'm writing about the current rpm group policy: http://wiki.mageia.org/en/RPM_groups_policy In this list, there are some groups that contain only a handful of packages while some others are in the hundreds. It sometimes makes it very hard to use rpmdrake (or other tools) to browse the packages. It is not a bug per se, but rather an interface issue, particularly with inexperienced users. My interest lies in particular in the Development/Other group. It is currently a mess, mixing up programming tools with libraries and compilers for the non-major programming languages. Among them, there are now 300 packages for OCaml-related packages. I propose we create a Development/OCaml group for them. I also noticed that despite our policy not having a Development/Tools rpm group, some packages started using it (I guess because Fedora and Suse have a Development/Tools group). I think this is a good idea and we could move there various tools currently in Development/Other like cvs, subversion (and all vcs), valgrind, make, autoconf, etc. If you agree, I will amend our http://wiki.mageia.org/en/RPM_groups_policy with these two changes and get in touch with the appropriate packagers/maintainers to do the group change (which is a trivial spec change). Hi Malo, I am in agreement with your proposal above, but I think the RPM groups policy need a wider overhaul. For examples, I miss categories for scheduling and productivity, as well as a category for personal finances, etc. As these changes also mean an update to our rpmlint package, I think it is best if someone drafts up a list of the needed changes and presents that in an upcoming dev team meeting for sanctioning. Yes it may be better. _Then_, we'll need to update http://svnweb.mageia.org/soft/rpmdrake/trunk/Rpmdrake/icon.pm?view=markup
Re: [Mageia-dev] Update of the rpm group policy
On Saturday 08 September 2012 20:07, Pierre-Malo Deniélou wrote: * Games/First Person Shooters (or simply Games/Shoot) Why not simply Games/Action ? That will also include all kinds of action games, both shooters and none shooters alike. -- Johnny A. Solbu PGP key ID: 0xFA687324 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Update of the rpm group policy
On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 8:58 PM, Johnny A. Solbu coo...@solbu.net wrote: On Saturday 08 September 2012 20:07, Pierre-Malo Deniélou wrote: * Games/First Person Shooters (or simply Games/Shoot) Why not simply Games/Action ? That will also include all kinds of action games, both shooters and none shooters alike. Well then in that case put them all in Games/Other that already exist and that's it. The idea is to be able to find First Person Shooter like games, and we have already a lot of them (10+), IMO they deserve their own category. -- Juancho
Re: [Mageia-dev] Update of the rpm group policy
On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 7:10 PM, Juan Luis Baptiste juan...@mageia.org wrote: On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 8:58 PM, Johnny A. Solbu coo...@solbu.net wrote: On Saturday 08 September 2012 20:07, Pierre-Malo Deniélou wrote: * Games/First Person Shooters (or simply Games/Shoot) Why not simply Games/Action ? That will also include all kinds of action games, both shooters and none shooters alike. Well then in that case put them all in Games/Other that already exist and that's it. The idea is to be able to find First Person Shooter like games, and we have already a lot of them (10+), IMO they deserve their own category. Some data about Other groups that may need new categories: $ urpmf --qf '%group' . | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr | grep Other 2345 Development/Other 716 Networking/Other 366 Graphical desktop/Other 318 Books/Other 214 System/Configuration/Other 158 Games/Other 72 Sciences/Other 20 Archiving/Other And more generally: $ urpmf --qf '%group' . | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr 5994 Development/Perl 5469 System/Libraries 5412 Development/Java 2345 Development/Other 2214 Development/C 1354 System/Internationalization 1064 Development/PHP 1018 Development/Ruby 1016 System/Servers 896 Development/Python 716 Networking/Other 698 Sound 696 Graphical desktop/KDE 653 Networking/WWW 579 Video 560 Databases 552 System/Kernel and hardware 546 Development/X11 522 Development/KDE and Qt 446 Text tools 430 Graphics 424 Office 410 Development/C++ 366 Graphical desktop/Other 338 Networking/Mail 324 Networking/Instant messaging 322 Development/GNOME and GTK+ 318 Books/Other 313 System/X11 313 Games/Arcade 284 Monitoring 258 System/Base 230 Publishing 223 File tools 222 Graphical desktop/GNOME 214 System/Configuration/Other 160 Books/Computer books 158 Games/Other 158 Education 150 System/Fonts/True type 148 Graphical desktop/Xfce 138 Communications 136 Editors 134 System/Configuration/Packaging 128 System/Printing 128 Networking/Remote access 114 Networking/File transfer 114 Games/Strategy 108 Networking/IRC 100 Archiving/Backup 94 Sciences/Mathematics 74 Sciences/Geosciences 72 Sciences/Other 71 System/Configuration/Hardware 70 Games/Boards 64 System/Configuration/Networking 64 Sciences/Computer science 62 Development/Kernel 57 Emulators 52 Graphical desktop/WindowMaker 48 Graphical desktop/Enlightenment 48 Games/Puzzles 48 Development/Databases 46 Documentation 44 Archiving/Compression 44 Accessibility 40 System/Cluster 38 Terminals 38 Sciences/Chemistry 36 Shells 32 Toys 30 Networking/News 30 Archiving/Cd burning 26 System/Configuration/Boot and Init 26 Games/Cards 24 Games/Adventure 20 Sciences/Physics 20 Archiving/Other 18 Development/Libraries 14 Sciences/Astronomy 14 Books/Howtos 10 System/Fonts/X11 bitmap 10 Sciences/Biology 10 Networking/Chat 10 Graphical desktop/Icewm 10 Development/Tools 8 System/Fonts/Type1 6 Games/Sports 4 System/Configuration/Printing 2 Graphical desktop/FVWM based 2 Development/Debug 2 Development Looking at Development/Other: $ urpmf --group Development/Other | cut -d: -f1 | cut -d- -f1 | sort | uniq -c | sort -nr | head 558 ocaml 120 gambas3 120 erlang 50 mono 26 harbour 24 lua 22 php 20 perl 20 juffed 20 eclipse So, ocaml, erlang and basic seem to need a category
Re: [Mageia-dev] Update of the rpm group policy
On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 7:25 PM, Pascal Terjan pter...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 7:10 PM, Juan Luis Baptiste juan...@mageia.org wrote: On Sat, Sep 8, 2012 at 8:58 PM, Johnny A. Solbu coo...@solbu.net wrote: On Saturday 08 September 2012 20:07, Pierre-Malo Deniélou wrote: * Games/First Person Shooters (or simply Games/Shoot) Why not simply Games/Action ? That will also include all kinds of action games, both shooters and none shooters alike. Well then in that case put them all in Games/Other that already exist and that's it. The idea is to be able to find First Person Shooter like games, and we have already a lot of them (10+), IMO they deserve their own category. Some data about Other groups that may need new categories: Also, the list of empty groups: Books/Faqs Books/Literature Graphical desktop/Sawfish System/Fonts/Console
[Mageia-dev] Update of the rpm group policy
Hi all, I'm writing about the current rpm group policy: http://wiki.mageia.org/en/RPM_groups_policy In this list, there are some groups that contain only a handful of packages while some others are in the hundreds. It sometimes makes it very hard to use rpmdrake (or other tools) to browse the packages. It is not a bug per se, but rather an interface issue, particularly with inexperienced users. My interest lies in particular in the Development/Other group. It is currently a mess, mixing up programming tools with libraries and compilers for the non-major programming languages. Among them, there are now 300 packages for OCaml-related packages. I propose we create a Development/OCaml group for them. I also noticed that despite our policy not having a Development/Tools rpm group, some packages started using it (I guess because Fedora and Suse have a Development/Tools group). I think this is a good idea and we could move there various tools currently in Development/Other like cvs, subversion (and all vcs), valgrind, make, autoconf, etc. If you agree, I will amend our http://wiki.mageia.org/en/RPM_groups_policy with these two changes and get in touch with the appropriate packagers/maintainers to do the group change (which is a trivial spec change). Thanks, -- Malo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Update of the rpm group policy
On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 7:13 PM, Pierre-Malo Deniélou pierre-malo.denie...@rhul.ac.uk wrote: If you agree, I will amend our http://wiki.mageia.org/en/RPM_groups_policy with these two changes and get in touch with the appropriate packagers/maintainers to do the group change (which is a trivial spec change). Could you also add a group Games/First Person Shooters ? currently that kind of games are on Games/Arcade, and they aren't really arcade. Thanks. -- Juancho
Re: [Mageia-dev] Update of the rpm group policy
On Fri, 7 Sep 2012 19:32:53 -0500 Juan Luis Baptiste wrote: Could you also add a group Games/First Person Shooters ? currently that kind of games are on Games/Arcade, and they aren't really arcade. There is at least one, alienarena, that is in Games/Other Charles -- This fortune is dedicated to your mother, without whose invaluable assistance last night would never have been possible. -- Mageia release 3 (Cauldron) for x86_64$ On SuperSizehttp://www.eslrahc.com Registered Linux user #182463 3.5.3-tmb-server-1.mga3 x86_64 -- signature.asc Description: PGP signature
