Re: [Mageia-dev] Qt-based software unusable under XFCE since almost 2 days
Le dimanche 19 février 2012 à 12:19 +, Païou a écrit : Oliver Burger oliver.bgr@... writes: I don't see the reason for this answer. Michael is just trying to make sure, we don't have a unmaintained major DE. Now, some maybe a bit harsh words on the developer mailing list - this is no user support list or forum or whatever - are far better, then having something like xfce unmaintained. After all, what makes users run away: some not all that courteous mails on the -dev ml, whose existence they may or may not be aware of or a perhaps buggy, not updated, unmaintained desktop? And if we keep a whole DE unmaintained in the repos, what does that say about overall package quality? Oliver OK, you are right. Sorry. I wish ardently that Xfce remains maintained. I guess lots of people do. But history shown this is not enough. Let's suppose we keep xfce, despites being unmaintained. When people report bugs, they will have no or few answers. They will not like and complain. Maybe more than with a maintainer, maybe they will not care. When there will be bugs, no one will step to fix them. So people who try this will either say this DE is buggy, or this distribution is buggy. Then, likely sooner or later, someone will say the DE work fine on AnotherDistribution, so people will think the distribution is buggy and switch to AnotherDistribution. While the outcome look the same ( ie, people leaving because there is no package, or leaving because it is not working ), in one case, they will switch by thinking the distribution is not having what I want, but the rest was working and will not badmouth us. In the other case, they will think the distribution is buggy, and complain. So how ending like this would help us in the long run ? Maybe that's just me, but each time I mentioned I am doing package for Mandriva in the past 5 years, people kept explaining me that they faced some bug dating back to mandrake 7.0 time, and that they switched distributions and how they now live in a world filled with pink pony giving them candy, yadayadayada. Besides being demotivating for me ( cause my time travel machine is still not working ), this was hurting the promotion of Mandriva. Did someone ever heard fedora is bad because they didn't ship Xfce at the start. I never did, and I think everybody forgot it. I could surely give several example on all distribution of missing packages and people forgetting once the issue is fixed. So people are likely quicker to forget lack of packages than lack of quality. And if we do not have the ressources to achieve quality packages, then it is much more saner for us to choose the least damaging solution in the long term, ie removing packages. There was enough complains about Mandriva shipping buggy softwares, and if as a community, we cannot increase work done to fix this ( we tried, we even put 2 developers together to see if they mate and produce a 3rd one to help us ), we do not have much others choice. For my part I participate in it as tester, where from my a little bit virulent reaction. This place is also, I think, the only place where it is possible to have a dialogue with developers. (except bugzilla, but bugzilla is more specific) There is lots of place to have a dialogue, be it on irc, in real life and so on. And if some of us ( and me the first ) do not go on forums on a frequent basis, there is various reasons that were already explained in the past ( http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.mandrake.cooker.devel/305365 ), so I can only direct you to my previous answers as it is likely still valid ( at least for me ). -- Michael Scherer
Re: [Mageia-dev] Qt-based software unusable under XFCE since almost 2 days
2012/2/20 Michael Scherer m...@zarb.org: Le dimanche 19 février 2012 à 12:19 +, Païou a écrit : Oliver Burger oliver.bgr@... writes: I don't see the reason for this answer. Michael is just trying to make sure, we don't have a unmaintained major DE. Now, some maybe a bit harsh words on the developer mailing list - this is no user support list or forum or whatever - are far better, then having something like xfce unmaintained. After all, what makes users run away: some not all that courteous mails on the -dev ml, whose existence they may or may not be aware of or a perhaps buggy, not updated, unmaintained desktop? And if we keep a whole DE unmaintained in the repos, what does that say about overall package quality? Oliver OK, you are right. Sorry. I wish ardently that Xfce remains maintained. I guess lots of people do. But history shown this is not enough. Let's suppose we keep xfce, despites being unmaintained. When people report bugs, they will have no or few answers. They will not like and complain. Maybe more than with a maintainer, maybe they will not care. When there will be bugs, no one will step to fix them. So people who try this will either say this DE is buggy, or this distribution is buggy. Then, likely sooner or later, someone will say the DE work fine on AnotherDistribution, so people will think the distribution is buggy and switch to AnotherDistribution. While the outcome look the same ( ie, people leaving because there is no package, or leaving because it is not working ), in one case, they will switch by thinking the distribution is not having what I want, but the rest was working and will not badmouth us. In the other case, they will think the distribution is buggy, and complain. So how ending like this would help us in the long run ? Maybe that's just me, but each time I mentioned I am doing package for Mandriva in the past 5 years, people kept explaining me that they faced some bug dating back to mandrake 7.0 time, and that they switched distributions and how they now live in a world filled with pink pony giving them candy, yadayadayada. Besides being demotivating for me ( cause my time travel machine is still not working ), this was hurting the promotion of Mandriva. Did someone ever heard fedora is bad because they didn't ship Xfce at the start. I never did, and I think everybody forgot it. I could surely give several example on all distribution of missing packages and people forgetting once the issue is fixed. So people are likely quicker to forget lack of packages than lack of quality. And if we do not have the ressources to achieve quality packages, then it is much more saner for us to choose the least damaging solution in the long term, ie removing packages. There was enough complains about Mandriva shipping buggy softwares, and if as a community, we cannot increase work done to fix this ( we tried, we even put 2 developers together to see if they mate and produce a 3rd one to help us ), we do not have much others choice. For my part I participate in it as tester, where from my a little bit virulent reaction. This place is also, I think, the only place where it is possible to have a dialogue with developers. (except bugzilla, but bugzilla is more specific) There is lots of place to have a dialogue, be it on irc, in real life and so on. And if some of us ( and me the first ) do not go on forums on a frequent basis, there is various reasons that were already explained in the past ( http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.linux.mandrake.cooker.devel/305365 ), so I can only direct you to my previous answers as it is likely still valid ( at least for me ). From time to time we do have different opinions especially wrt user's POV vs. devel's POV, but this time I agree in full to all points you made. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Qt-based software unusable under XFCE since almost 2 days
On 18/02/12 11:55, Michael Scherer wrote: Le samedi 18 février 2012 à 10:33 +0100, Olivier Thauvin a écrit : * Michael Scherer (m...@zarb.org) wrote: Le vendredi 17 février 2012 à 19:18 +0100, Claire Revillet a écrit : Hi, As a second point : there is still no xfce-* maintainer and as many people are using it on cauldron and as we have bug on Could we have xfce directly from dvd/dual/live installation please : it will be great that someone grab those packages. The candidat will have all our gratitude :) (and bug report :p ) If there is so much users, why is there no volunteer for taking just one package ? Being user does not mean having knowledge to maintain it. I know at least 2 people in the packagers group who use xfce. So if they have no knowledge for maintaining rpms ( and a dm doesn't require more knowledge than anything else ), that would be shocking. Anyway, if a major DE is unmaintained, maybe we should start to think removing it until there is enough volunteer, since we do not want to have a popular application to be crappy due to lack of maintainer. This would be lying to user, and giving them false expectations. Here are the xfce bugs we have (fast search for xfce or xfce4 in RPM Package field, without enhancement requests), the oldest one dates from July 18th: https://bugs.mageia.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advancedfield0-0-0=cf_rpmpkgbug_severity=criticalbug_severity=majorbug_severity=normalbug_severity=minorbug_status=NEWbug_status=ASSIGNEDbug_status=REOPENEDtype0-0-0=anywordsvalue0-0-0=xfce%20xfce4
Re: [Mageia-dev] Qt-based software unusable under XFCE since almost 2 days
Michael Scherer misc@... writes: I know at least 2 people in the packagers group who use xfce. So if they have no knowledge for maintaining rpms ( and a dm doesn't require more knowledge than anything else ), that would be shocking. Anyway, if a major DE is unmaintained, maybe we should start to think removing it until there is enough volunteer, since we do not want to have a popular application to be crappy due to lack of maintainer. This would be lying to user, and giving them false expectations. @Michael If you want to make the users of Mageia run away, continue on this tone! I left Mandriva for the same reason
Re: [Mageia-dev] Qt-based software unusable under XFCE since almost 2 days
Am 19.02.2012 10:35, schrieb Païou: Michael Scherermisc@... writes: I know at least 2 people in the packagers group who use xfce. So if they have no knowledge for maintaining rpms ( and a dm doesn't require more knowledge than anything else ), that would be shocking. Anyway, if a major DE is unmaintained, maybe we should start to think removing it until there is enough volunteer, since we do not want to have a popular application to be crappy due to lack of maintainer. This would be lying to user, and giving them false expectations. @Michael If you want to make the users of Mageia run away, continue on this tone! I left Mandriva for the same reason I don't see the reason for this answer. Michael is just trying to make sure, we don't have a unmaintained major DE. Now, some maybe a bit harsh words on the developer mailing list - this is no user support list or forum or whatever - are far better, then having something like xfce unmaintained. After all, what makes users run away: some not all that courteous mails on the -dev ml, whose existence they may or may not be aware of or a perhaps buggy, not updated, unmaintained desktop? And if we keep a whole DE unmaintained in the repos, what does that say about overall package quality? Oliver
Re: [Mageia-dev] Qt-based software unusable under XFCE since almost 2 days
Oliver Burger oliver.bgr@... writes: I don't see the reason for this answer. Michael is just trying to make sure, we don't have a unmaintained major DE. Now, some maybe a bit harsh words on the developer mailing list - this is no user support list or forum or whatever - are far better, then having something like xfce unmaintained. After all, what makes users run away: some not all that courteous mails on the -dev ml, whose existence they may or may not be aware of or a perhaps buggy, not updated, unmaintained desktop? And if we keep a whole DE unmaintained in the repos, what does that say about overall package quality? Oliver OK, you are right. Sorry. I wish ardently that Xfce remains maintained. For my part I participate in it as tester, where from my a little bit virulent reaction. This place is also, I think, the only place where it is possible to have a dialogue with developers. (except bugzilla, but bugzilla is more specific)
Re: [Mageia-dev] Qt-based software unusable under XFCE since almost 2 days
* Michael Scherer (m...@zarb.org) wrote: Le vendredi 17 février 2012 à 19:18 +0100, Claire Revillet a écrit : Hi, As a second point : there is still no xfce-* maintainer and as many people are using it on cauldron and as we have bug on Could we have xfce directly from dvd/dual/live installation please : it will be great that someone grab those packages. The candidat will have all our gratitude :) (and bug report :p ) If there is so much users, why is there no volunteer for taking just one package ? Being user does not mean having knowledge to maintain it. -- Michael Scherer -- Olivier Thauvin CNRS - LATMOS ♖ ♘ ♗ ♕ ♔ ♗ ♘ ♖ pgpYGmNSryz0k.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Mageia-dev] Qt-based software unusable under XFCE since almost 2 days
Le samedi 18 février 2012 à 10:33 +0100, Olivier Thauvin a écrit : * Michael Scherer (m...@zarb.org) wrote: Le vendredi 17 février 2012 à 19:18 +0100, Claire Revillet a écrit : Hi, As a second point : there is still no xfce-* maintainer and as many people are using it on cauldron and as we have bug on Could we have xfce directly from dvd/dual/live installation please : it will be great that someone grab those packages. The candidat will have all our gratitude :) (and bug report :p ) If there is so much users, why is there no volunteer for taking just one package ? Being user does not mean having knowledge to maintain it. I know at least 2 people in the packagers group who use xfce. So if they have no knowledge for maintaining rpms ( and a dm doesn't require more knowledge than anything else ), that would be shocking. Anyway, if a major DE is unmaintained, maybe we should start to think removing it until there is enough volunteer, since we do not want to have a popular application to be crappy due to lack of maintainer. This would be lying to user, and giving them false expectations. -- Michael Scherer
Re: [Mageia-dev] Qt-based software unusable under XFCE since almost 2 days
On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 19:18:56 +0100, Claire Revillet wrote about [Mageia-dev] Qt-based software unusable under XFCE since almost 2 days: Since 2 days (or more maybe), under XFCE, all qt-based soft are breaking our cauldrons : I suspect it is more like 2 weeks. Ciao, =Dick Gevers=
Re: [Mageia-dev] Qt-based software unusable under XFCE since almost 2 days
Le vendredi 17 février 2012 à 19:18 +0100, Claire Revillet a écrit : Hi, As a second point : there is still no xfce-* maintainer and as many people are using it on cauldron and as we have bug on Could we have xfce directly from dvd/dual/live installation please : it will be great that someone grab those packages. The candidat will have all our gratitude :) (and bug report :p ) If there is so much users, why is there no volunteer for taking just one package ? -- Michael Scherer
