Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
'Twas brillig, and Richard Couture at 04/06/12 19:06 did gyre and gimble: I value(d) this option and think that replacing it with whatever mechanism is necessary would be an asset to Mageia, whereas I now view it's lack of function as a loss. Did you check what I wrote tho'? Did you try configuring /etc/sysconfig/init to set the SINGLE= value as per your desires? As I said, it didn't work that great for me when I tested a while ago, but it may work better now. This then gives control to the various tools that use it to set the desired behaviour. So the features is not gone, it is still there as before - I'm just not 100% convinced it's working perfectly - but please do test and let me know. Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
On Sunday, 3 June 2012 17:52:47 Colin Guthrie wrote: On the whole, this kind of security is basically bullshit anyway. You can't make that assessment without understanding the rest of the security environment. It might make things a tiny bit harder, but if you can get into the bootloader to append a 1 on the command line, Maybe you *can't* append anything you like to the command-line. Maybe the bootloader configuration has a 'boot single' option, which should require entry of the root password to access the system. you can also append init=/bin/bash too which totally bypasses everything too. Not if the bootloader configuration is password protected (IOW, you can boot any configured option, but if you want to modify anything, you need to provide a password, different from the root password). So while it's maybe a nice idea, for all practical purposes, it's not any kind of real security anyway, so don't rely on it! No security implementation relies on a single control being in place. A numebr of modern security best practices have thousands of controls, and the requirement for a password to be entered to boot single is almost always one of them, and a requirement for a bootloader password is usually another. Regards, Buchan
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
I'm in full agreement, however the point of my initial post was not to obtain an evaluation of the merits of being able to, as part of the install as was the case in versions previous to system D, but to ask if a mechanism, providing the same function as was previously available, through msec or whatever, is in the plans... I value(d) this option and think that replacing it with whatever mechanism is necessary would be an asset to Mageia, whereas I now view it's lack of function as a loss. Perceptions are really important as can be seen in the various reviews which condemn for seemingly irrelevant details... Thanks Richard On 06/04/2012 06:10 AM, Buchan Milne wrote: On Sunday, 3 June 2012 17:52:47 Colin Guthrie wrote: On the whole, this kind of security is basically bullshit anyway. You can't make that assessment without understanding the rest of the security environment. It might make things a tiny bit harder, but if you can get into the bootloader to append a 1 on the command line, Maybe you *can't* append anything you like to the command-line. Maybe the bootloader configuration has a 'boot single' option, which should require entry of the root password to access the system. you can also append init=/bin/bash too which totally bypasses everything too. Not if the bootloader configuration is password protected (IOW, you can boot any configured option, but if you want to modify anything, you need to provide a password, different from the root password). So while it's maybe a nice idea, for all practical purposes, it's not any kind of real security anyway, so don't rely on it! No security implementation relies on a single control being in place. A numebr of modern security best practices have thousands of controls, and the requirement for a password to be entered to boot single is almost always one of them, and a requirement for a bootloader password is usually another. Regards, Buchan -- LinuxCabal Asociación Civil Ing. Richard Couture Novell CNE, ECNE, MCNE HP/Compaq ASE Tel.: (+52) (333) 145-2638 Cel.: (+52) (044) 333 377-7505 Cel.: (+52) (044) 333 377-7506 Web: http://www.LinuxCabal.org E-Mail: r...@linuxcabal.org Hosted en la nube Cloud Sigma - www.CloudSigma.com AVISO DE CONFIDENCIALIDAD: Este correo electrónico, incluyendo en su caso, los archivos adjuntos al mismo, pueden contener información de carácter confidencial y/o privilegiada, y se envían a la atención única y exclusivamente de la persona y/o entidad a quien va dirigido. La copia, revisión, uso, revelación y/o distribución de dicha información confidencial sin la autorización por escrito de LinuxCabal está prohibida. Si usted no es el destinatario a quien se dirige el presente correo, favor de contactar al remitente respondiendo al presente correo y eliminar el correo original incluyendo sus archivos, así como cualesquiera copia del mismo. Mediante la recepción del presente correo usted reconoce y acepta que en caso de incumplimiento de su parte y/o de sus representantes a los términos antes mencionados, LinuxCabal tendrá derecho a los daños y perjuicios que esto le cause.
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
On 03.06.2012 14:27, Richard Couture wrote: I notice that when, at the end of the installation of MGA2, I select the level of security as HIGH, that I am permitted entry into the system in Linux Single mode without a challenge password, which is a new, and IMHO undesirable, behavior from previous versions. Is this a new feature, or have I stumbled upon a bug? The /etc/inittab does have ~~:S:wait:/sbin/sulogin in it but I can get in without a password... Must be something new in system D This is a bit off topic, but please don't hijack threads.
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
I am a bit confused by your message... I sent my message with a new and unique Subject, How is that considered hijacking a thread? Am I missing the point? Richard On 06/03/2012 06:30 AM, Jani Välimaa wrote: On 03.06.2012 14:27, Richard Couture wrote: I notice that when, at the end of the installation of MGA2, I select the level of security as HIGH, that I am permitted entry into the system in Linux Single mode without a challenge password, which is a new, and IMHO undesirable, behavior from previous versions. Is this a new feature, or have I stumbled upon a bug? The /etc/inittab does have ~~:S:wait:/sbin/sulogin in it but I can get in without a password... Must be something new in system D This is a bit off topic, but please don't hijack threads. -- LinuxCabal Asociación Civil Ing. Richard Couture Novell CNE, ECNE, MCNE HP/Compaq ASE Tel.: (+52) (333) 145-2638 Cel.: (+52) (044) 333 377-7505 Cel.: (+52) (044) 333 377-7506 Web: http://www.LinuxCabal.org E-Mail: r...@linuxcabal.org Hosted en la nube Cloud Sigma - www.CloudSigma.com AVISO DE CONFIDENCIALIDAD: Este correo electrónico, incluyendo en su caso, los archivos adjuntos al mismo, pueden contener información de carácter confidencial y/o privilegiada, y se envían a la atención única y exclusivamente de la persona y/o entidad a quien va dirigido. La copia, revisión, uso, revelación y/o distribución de dicha información confidencial sin la autorización por escrito de LinuxCabal está prohibida. Si usted no es el destinatario a quien se dirige el presente correo, favor de contactar al remitente respondiendo al presente correo y eliminar el correo original incluyendo sus archivos, así como cualesquiera copia del mismo. Mediante la recepción del presente correo usted reconoce y acepta que en caso de incumplimiento de su parte y/o de sus representantes a los términos antes mencionados, LinuxCabal tendrá derecho a los daños y perjuicios que esto le cause.
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
2012/6/3 Richard Couture r...@linuxcabal.org: I am a bit confused by your message... I sent my message with a new and unique Subject, How is that considered hijacking a thread? Am I missing the point? I don't see a hijacked thread either. -- wobo Richard On 06/03/2012 06:30 AM, Jani Välimaa wrote: On 03.06.2012 14:27, Richard Couture wrote: I notice that when, at the end of the installation of MGA2, I select the level of security as HIGH, that I am permitted entry into the system in Linux Single mode without a challenge password, which is a new, and IMHO undesirable, behavior from previous versions. Is this a new feature, or have I stumbled upon a bug? The /etc/inittab does have ~~:S:wait:/sbin/sulogin in it but I can get in without a password... Must be something new in system D This is a bit off topic, but please don't hijack threads. -- LinuxCabal Asociación Civil Ing. Richard Couture Novell CNE, ECNE, MCNE HP/Compaq ASE Tel.: (+52) (333) 145-2638 Cel.: (+52) (044) 333 377-7505 Cel.: (+52) (044) 333 377-7506 Web: http://www.LinuxCabal.org E-Mail: r...@linuxcabal.org Hosted en la nube Cloud Sigma - www.CloudSigma.com AVISO DE CONFIDENCIALIDAD: Este correo electrónico, incluyendo en su caso, los archivos adjuntos al mismo, pueden contener información de carácter confidencial y/o privilegiada, y se envían a la atención única y exclusivamente de la persona y/o entidad a quien va dirigido. La copia, revisión, uso, revelación y/o distribución de dicha información confidencial sin la autorización por escrito de LinuxCabal está prohibida. Si usted no es el destinatario a quien se dirige el presente correo, favor de contactar al remitente respondiendo al presente correo y eliminar el correo original incluyendo sus archivos, así como cualesquiera copia del mismo. Mediante la recepción del presente correo usted reconoce y acepta que en caso de incumplimiento de su parte y/o de sus representantes a los términos antes mencionados, LinuxCabal tendrá derecho a los daños y perjuicios que esto le cause.
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
Le 03/06/2012 13:40, Wolfgang Bornath a écrit : How is that considered hijacking a thread? Am I missing the point? I don't see a hijacked thread either. Replaying on a different thread instead of creating a new one.
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
On 03.06.2012 14:35, Richard Couture wrote: I am a bit confused by your message... I sent my message with a new and unique Subject, How is that considered hijacking a thread? Am I missing the point? New and unique subject isn't always enough. There's still some headers from message which you presumably used with Reply button to get mailing list address and then erased the message box. To: Mageia development mailing-list mageia-dev@mageia.org References: 4fcb1da9.1070...@gmail.com In-Reply-To: 4fcb1da9.1070...@gmail.com On 06/03/2012 06:30 AM, Jani Välimaa wrote: On 03.06.2012 14:27, Richard Couture wrote: I notice that when, at the end of the installation of MGA2, I select the level of security as HIGH, that I am permitted entry into the system in Linux Single mode without a challenge password, which is a new, and IMHO undesirable, behavior from previous versions. Is this a new feature, or have I stumbled upon a bug? The /etc/inittab does have ~~:S:wait:/sbin/sulogin in it but I can get in without a password... Must be something new in system D This is a bit off topic, but please don't hijack threads.
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
2012/6/3 Jani Välimaa jani.vali...@gmail.com: On 03.06.2012 14:35, Richard Couture wrote: I am a bit confused by your message... I sent my message with a new and unique Subject, How is that considered hijacking a thread? Am I missing the point? New and unique subject isn't always enough. There's still some headers from message which you presumably used with Reply button to get mailing list address and then erased the message box. To: Mageia development mailing-list mageia-dev@mageia.org References: 4fcb1da9.1070...@gmail.com In-Reply-To: 4fcb1da9.1070...@gmail.com Well, normally I do not look at the extended header. In my mailer the message by Richard came in as new message, not within an older thread. That's why I also replied that I do not see any hijacked Thread. Looking at the references show 2 references but i never received the mails with these references. -- wobo On 06/03/2012 06:30 AM, Jani Välimaa wrote: On 03.06.2012 14:27, Richard Couture wrote: I notice that when, at the end of the installation of MGA2, I select the level of security as HIGH, that I am permitted entry into the system in Linux Single mode without a challenge password, which is a new, and IMHO undesirable, behavior from previous versions. Is this a new feature, or have I stumbled upon a bug? The /etc/inittab does have ~~:S:wait:/sbin/sulogin in it but I can get in without a password... Must be something new in system D This is a bit off topic, but please don't hijack threads.
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
Op zondag 3 juni 2012 14:04:07 schreef Wolfgang Bornath: 2012/6/3 Jani Välimaa jani.vali...@gmail.com: On 03.06.2012 14:35, Richard Couture wrote: I am a bit confused by your message... I sent my message with a new and unique Subject, How is that considered hijacking a thread? Am I missing the point? New and unique subject isn't always enough. There's still some headers from message which you presumably used with Reply button to get mailing list address and then erased the message box. To: Mageia development mailing-list mageia-dev@mageia.org References: 4fcb1da9.1070...@gmail.com In-Reply-To: 4fcb1da9.1070...@gmail.com Well, normally I do not look at the extended header. In my mailer the message by Richard came in as new message, not within an older thread. That's why I also replied that I do not see any hijacked Thread. Looking at the references show 2 references but i never received the mails with these references. [...] it's Anne's mail with subject: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 2 and Cauldron updated with proper design also, OP, we like that in mailing list, no top posting is going on. iow: if you reply, put your reply under the quoted part. for regular messages topposting is fine, but in mailing lists it reads alot better. tia
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
2012/6/3 AL13N al...@rmail.be: Op zondag 3 juni 2012 14:04:07 schreef Wolfgang Bornath: 2012/6/3 Jani Välimaa jani.vali...@gmail.com: On 03.06.2012 14:35, Richard Couture wrote: I am a bit confused by your message... I sent my message with a new and unique Subject, How is that considered hijacking a thread? Am I missing the point? New and unique subject isn't always enough. There's still some headers from message which you presumably used with Reply button to get mailing list address and then erased the message box. To: Mageia development mailing-list mageia-dev@mageia.org References: 4fcb1da9.1070...@gmail.com In-Reply-To: 4fcb1da9.1070...@gmail.com Well, normally I do not look at the extended header. In my mailer the message by Richard came in as new message, not within an older thread. That's why I also replied that I do not see any hijacked Thread. Looking at the references show 2 references but i never received the mails with these references. [...] it's Anne's mail with subject: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 2 and Cauldron updated with proper design Ok, I received that. Conclusion: My mail client (Googlemail online) does not honor references, splits threads by subject only. New experience. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
Op zondag 3 juni 2012 15:17:28 schreef Wolfgang Bornath: [...] it's Anne's mail with subject: [Mageia-dev] Mageia 2 and Cauldron updated with proper design Ok, I received that. Conclusion: My mail client (Googlemail online) does not honor references, splits threads by subject only. New experience. That's not what i expected of google, to be sure... but it's one more bug they are likely not willing to fix
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
'Twas brillig, and Richard Couture at 03/06/12 12:27 did gyre and gimble:
I notice that when, at the end of the installation of MGA2, I select the
level of security as HIGH, that I am permitted entry into the system in
Linux Single mode without a challenge password, which is a new, and IMHO
undesirable, behavior from previous versions.
Is this a new feature, or have I stumbled upon a bug?
The /etc/inittab does have ~~:S:wait:/sbin/sulogin in it but I can get
in without a password... Must be something new in system D
/etc/inittab is no longer used or read.
For single user mode now-a-days we boot to rescue.target (this is done
automatically if you just put a 1 at the end of the kernel command line
to support runlevel 1).
Ultimately this pulls in rescue.service
This file should source the contents of /etc/sysconfig/init and then
execute:
/bin/bash -c exec ${SINGLE}
So please check /etc/sysconfig/init and make sure SINGLE is set to
/sbin/sulogin rather than /sbin/sushell.
However you will see from previous threads that I'm not convinced
sulogin is actually working all that well just now and it some
pre-release testing it didn't run properly for me.
On the whole, this kind of security is basically bullshit anyway. It
might make things a tiny bit harder, but if you can get into the
bootloader to append a 1 on the command line, you can also append
init=/bin/bash too which totally bypasses everything too. So while it's
maybe a nice idea, for all practical purposes, it's not any kind of real
security anyway, so don't rely on it!
Col
--
Colin Guthrie
colin(at)mageia.org
http://colin.guthr.ie/
Day Job:
Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/
Open Source:
Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/
PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/
Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
2012/6/3 Colin Guthrie mag...@colin.guthr.ie: 'Twas brillig, and Richard Couture at 03/06/12 12:27 did gyre and gimble: I notice that when, at the end of the installation of MGA2, I select the level of security as HIGH, that I am permitted entry into the system in Linux Single mode without a challenge password, which is a new, and IMHO undesirable, behavior from previous versions. Is this a new feature, or have I stumbled upon a bug? The /etc/inittab does have ~~:S:wait:/sbin/sulogin in it but I can get in without a password... Must be something new in system D /etc/inittab is no longer used or read. For single user mode now-a-days we boot to rescue.target (this is done automatically if you just put a 1 at the end of the kernel command line to support runlevel 1). Ok, convinced. But if /etc/inittab is not used any more, where do I change initial runlevel not for one boot but for a while? With inittab it was easy to change the default runlevel. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
'Twas brillig, and Wolfgang Bornath at 03/06/12 17:12 did gyre and gimble: 2012/6/3 Colin Guthrie mag...@colin.guthr.ie: 'Twas brillig, and Richard Couture at 03/06/12 12:27 did gyre and gimble: I notice that when, at the end of the installation of MGA2, I select the level of security as HIGH, that I am permitted entry into the system in Linux Single mode without a challenge password, which is a new, and IMHO undesirable, behavior from previous versions. Is this a new feature, or have I stumbled upon a bug? The /etc/inittab does have ~~:S:wait:/sbin/sulogin in it but I can get in without a password... Must be something new in system D /etc/inittab is no longer used or read. For single user mode now-a-days we boot to rescue.target (this is done automatically if you just put a 1 at the end of the kernel command line to support runlevel 1). Ok, convinced. But if /etc/inittab is not used any more, where do I change initial runlevel not for one boot but for a while? With inittab it was easy to change the default runlevel. The tools in drak* still let you configure this, so that's the easy way. For real men (and women), we just change the /etc/systemd/system/default.target symlink to point at whatever target we want to use by default. For ad-hoc changes you can pass systemd.unit=foo.target on the kernel command line or just append a runlevel number or the words single or failsafe as before. Cheers Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
2012/6/3 Colin Guthrie mag...@colin.guthr.ie: 'Twas brillig, and Wolfgang Bornath at 03/06/12 17:12 did gyre and gimble: 2012/6/3 Colin Guthrie mag...@colin.guthr.ie: 'Twas brillig, and Richard Couture at 03/06/12 12:27 did gyre and gimble: I notice that when, at the end of the installation of MGA2, I select the level of security as HIGH, that I am permitted entry into the system in Linux Single mode without a challenge password, which is a new, and IMHO undesirable, behavior from previous versions. Is this a new feature, or have I stumbled upon a bug? The /etc/inittab does have ~~:S:wait:/sbin/sulogin in it but I can get in without a password... Must be something new in system D /etc/inittab is no longer used or read. For single user mode now-a-days we boot to rescue.target (this is done automatically if you just put a 1 at the end of the kernel command line to support runlevel 1). Ok, convinced. But if /etc/inittab is not used any more, where do I change initial runlevel not for one boot but for a while? With inittab it was easy to change the default runlevel. The tools in drak* still let you configure this, so that's the easy way. For real men (and women), we just change the /etc/systemd/system/default.target symlink to point at whatever target we want to use by default. For ad-hoc changes you can pass systemd.unit=foo.target on the kernel command line or just append a runlevel number or the words single or failsafe as before. I knew there will be regressions in usage. No more easy change with sed! :) Or: I feel educated to use the GUIs! Thx -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
On 2012/06/03 17:46 (GMT+0100) Colin Guthrie composed: /etc/inittab is no longer used or read. For single user mode now-a-days we boot to rescue.target (this is done automatically if you just put a 1 at the end of the kernel command line to support runlevel 1). where do I change initial runlevel not for one boot but for a while? With inittab it was easy to change the default runlevel. The tools in drak* still let you configure this, so that's the easy way. Not when X is broken. For real men (and women), we just change the /etc/systemd/system/default.target symlink to point at whatever target we want to use by default. So instead of changing one character in a file that has been standard for decades, one must figure out the name of the desired target file, then type a lot so as to get the required symlink. For ad-hoc changes you can pass systemd.unit=foo.target on the kernel command line Ditto. or just append a runlevel number or the words single or failsafe as before. Thank God everything that used to make good sense hasn't been replaced by something more complicated. I've taken to including a digit on every Grub kernel line quite some time ago. -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
On Sunday 03 June 2012 19:09, Felix Miata wrote: On 2012/06/03 17:46 (GMT+0100) Colin Guthrie composed: /etc/inittab is no longer used or read. For real men (and women), we just change the /etc/systemd/system/default.target symlink to point at whatever target we want to use by default. So instead of changing one character in a file that has been standard for decades, one must figure out the name of the desired target file, then type a lot so as to get the required symlink. I agree with Felix, this is not a good change. I'm sure there is a perfectly valid ans sound reason for changig it, but there's a difference in changing it for the better and changing it for the worse. This is a bad change. Besides, the best thing about the inittab is that it is self-explanatory even to novices. A symlink is Not obvious. Thank God everything that used to make good sense hasn't been replaced by something more complicated. Don't give them any ideas. ;-)= I've taken to including a digit on every Grub kernel line quite some time ago. I've done the same for more than 10 years. Editing a text file to change a number, eg. from 5 to 3, is much easier to remember than changing a symlink to /lib/systemd/system/runlevel3.target, especially when explaning this to a not so advanced user over the phone, who doesn't have a working X at the moment. (Yes, I actually do have such support calls.) The support departments are just going to love this. ;-)= -- Johnny A. Solbu PGP key ID: 0xFA687324 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
Op zondag 3 juni 2012 18:49:04 schreef Johnny A. Solbu: [...] I agree with Felix, this is not a good change. I'm sure there is a perfectly valid ans sound reason for changig it, but there's a difference in changing it for the better and changing it for the worse. This is a bad change. [...] I don't agree, it's not even a change, it's systemd vs sysvinit. if you don't like it, you can still switch back to sysvinit, This is the way linux is moving forward and i would say: be a man and at least try it for a bit, there are no constants in this world anyway... For some of you, stuff you've known for ages is worthless now and you go back to being a noob (for this sort of thing) and will have to relearn a different way. So be it. after all, kernel changes to 2.6.X to 3.X, grub will change to grub2 (different configuration, like no more 0-based numbers, it'll start from 1 instead..), there's now dracut instead of mkinitrd. truth of the matter is that old stuff inevitably gets historical baggage and different is not necessarily bad. so, bear with it, know that this mga2 release is a bit of a mix between sysvinit and systemd, and that next release will be systemd only, and thus can cut down on historical baggage which will solve some issues we're having now. try to relearn all this new stuff first, and see if it's better or worse from a standpoint of knowing nothing.
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
On Sunday 03 June 2012 20:16, AL13N wrote: it's not even a change, it's systemd vs sysvinit. That may be so, but it is still a change. if you don't like it, you can still switch back to sysvinit, I don't have to like it to use it. :-)= -- Johnny A. Solbu PGP key ID: 0xFA687324 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
03.06.2012 20:49, Johnny A. Solbu kirjutas: Editing a text file to change a number, eg. from 5 to 3, is much easier to remember than changing a symlink to /lib/systemd/system/runlevel3.target, especially when explaning this to a not so advanced user over the phone, who doesn't have a working X at the moment. (Yes, I actually do have such support calls.) The support departments are just going to love this. ;-)= Is there anyone who stops you to contribute a script that does this for the user? -- Sander
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
AL13N wrote earlier: For some of you, stuff you've known for ages is worthless now and you go back to being a noob (for this sort of thing) and will have to relearn a different way. The change here is new and needs a different way, yes. Nothing against that. But the same result has been reached before in a far easier way, it's not only a new way, it's a more complicated way. That's the point. 2012/6/3 Sander Lepik sander.le...@eesti.ee: 03.06.2012 20:49, Johnny A. Solbu kirjutas: Editing a text file to change a number, eg. from 5 to 3, is much easier to remember than changing a symlink to /lib/systemd/system/runlevel3.target, especially when explaning this to a not so advanced user over the phone, who doesn't have a working X at the moment. (Yes, I actually do have such support calls.) The support departments are just going to love this. ;-)= Is there anyone who stops you to contribute a script that does this for the user? Yes, you see that correctly: a script which is needed because the proper way is a regression in usability :) Don't misunderstand me - if this change is needed because of another change then it's ok by me. But that does not mean I have to be over enthousisastic about something which makes things not easier but quite the contrary. -- wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
Op zondag 3 juni 2012 20:57:41 schreef Wolfgang Bornath: AL13N wrote earlier: For some of you, stuff you've known for ages is worthless now and you go back to being a noob (for this sort of thing) and will have to relearn a different way. The change here is new and needs a different way, yes. Nothing against that. But the same result has been reached before in a far easier way, it's not only a new way, it's a more complicated way. That's the point. [...] I think that it's not more complicated, it's just different, for someone not knowing about runlevels changing something from 5 to 3 doesn't make much sense, having a symlink point to another file sounds better at least. i think that if i ever understand how systemd works, i'll be likely a simple change that's trivial
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
Sander Lepik wrote: 03.06.2012 20:49, Johnny A. Solbu kirjutas: Editing a text file to change a number, eg. from 5 to 3, is much easier to remember than changing a symlink to /lib/systemd/system/runlevel3.target, especially when explaning this to a not so advanced user over the phone, who doesn't have a working X at the moment. (Yes, I actually do have such support calls.) The support departments are just going to love this. ;-)= Is there anyone who stops you to contribute a script that does this for the user? Like a lot of things in UNIX/Linux, it's easy to do it (just one ln command) once you know how to do it. Fedora actually installs an /etc/inittab file that just has a comment in it that tells you how to do it with ln. That's helpful.
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
'Twas brillig, and Johnny A. Solbu at 03/06/12 18:49 did gyre and gimble: On Sunday 03 June 2012 19:09, Felix Miata wrote: On 2012/06/03 17:46 (GMT+0100) Colin Guthrie composed: /etc/inittab is no longer used or read. For real men (and women), we just change the /etc/systemd/system/default.target symlink to point at whatever target we want to use by default. So instead of changing one character in a file that has been standard for decades, one must figure out the name of the desired target file, then type a lot so as to get the required symlink. I agree with Felix, this is not a good change. I'm sure there is a perfectly valid ans sound reason for changig it, but there's a difference in changing it for the better and changing it for the worse. This is a bad change. Well, if you think about inittab it's pretty crazy... it's a single file that contains no dependency information but allows you to create a watchable service (i.e. one that can be automatically restarted). Then there are sysvinit scripts which allow you to write a non-watchable service (unless you fork off your own watching service). That's two ways to do some pretty similar things. Why? Why do I have to learn which way is best and why it's appropriate to start some services via initscripts and some from inittab? Truth be told this is just a classic example of how features grow an mould over time. Thinking logically it's fundamentally broken to have packages install themselves and modify your initab file so that they are started automatically. That's one of the reasons the initscripts themselves came about, but inittab still supports this, even if we don't actively use it so much these days. systemd at very least provides a single, unified method of how units are started (with the exception that it still supports sysvinit scripts for compatibility although this has now been modularised such that a generator will actually generate native units in /run tree for sysvinit scripts and thus they are converted dynamically every boot). All units can contain complex dependency information and vastly improved logging and documentation. If you work with it for a while and follow what it does, I genuinely hope that you'd agree. With newer systemd's you could likely write a generator that would take the information from inittab and convert it to native units. This is pretty difficult due to the lack of dependency information, but it should work for the most part. You could certainly write a generator that parsed the default target easily enough, tho' I'd prefer to just leave it behind personally. Besides, the best thing about the inittab is that it is self-explanatory even to novices. A symlink is Not obvious. I completely disagree - I'd say both are equally confusing to novices. I mean what the hell is /etc/inittab? It has no meaning unless I know what it means - just like the symlink. Thank God everything that used to make good sense hasn't been replaced by something more complicated. Don't give them any ideas. ;-)= I've taken to including a digit on every Grub kernel line quite some time ago. I've done the same for more than 10 years. Editing a text file to change a number, eg. from 5 to 3, is much easier to remember than changing a symlink to /lib/systemd/system/runlevel3.target, especially when explaning this to a not so advanced user over the phone, who doesn't have a working X at the moment. (Yes, I actually do have such support calls.) The support departments are just going to love this. ;-)= If you have to support a user to change their default runlevel then explaining to them how to use vi is your problem anyway! Now you don't need to school them in how to use a shell editor, you just need to tell them one command that support tab completion!. I'd personally say this is easier. There are also patches to turn this into an easy command: http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.sysutils.systemd.devel/4911 Not sure if it's upstream yet, but the principle IMO makes sense. Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
Re: [Mageia-dev] bug, omission or feature
'Twas brillig, and David Walser at 03/06/12 21:54 did gyre and gimble: Sander Lepik wrote: 03.06.2012 20:49, Johnny A. Solbu kirjutas: Editing a text file to change a number, eg. from 5 to 3, is much easier to remember than changing a symlink to /lib/systemd/system/runlevel3.target, especially when explaning this to a not so advanced user over the phone, who doesn't have a working X at the moment. (Yes, I actually do have such support calls.) The support departments are just going to love this. ;-)= Is there anyone who stops you to contribute a script that does this for the user? Like a lot of things in UNIX/Linux, it's easy to do it (just one ln command) once you know how to do it. Fedora actually installs an /etc/inittab file that just has a comment in it that tells you how to do it with ln. That's helpful. Yup we can do that in mga3 where we won't use inittab at all. Col -- Colin Guthrie colin(at)mageia.org http://colin.guthr.ie/ Day Job: Tribalogic Limited http://www.tribalogic.net/ Open Source: Mageia Contributor http://www.mageia.org/ PulseAudio Hacker http://www.pulseaudio.org/ Trac Hacker http://trac.edgewall.org/
