Re: [Mailman-Developers] Hi! I'll be your intern for the summer :)

[Barry Warsaw]

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On Jun 19, 2006, at 3:31 AM, Ian Eiloart wrote:

> Well, in our case, the styles would be site-wide and set up only  
> once. We don't need a UI to set up the styles, because we've  
> already created them. Our current workflow is
>1. Create a list through the UI
>2. Shell in to the list server
>3. Run a script which applies the style to the list.
>
> I'd just like to avoid 2. and 3. by having some UI to apply the  
> style on creation  - like the subethaedit example. I guess it would  
> be nice for the CGI to look for a style file at -say- /mailman/ 
> styles/foo.style and a text description at /mailman/styles/ 
> foo.description - or to extract the description from the style file.

This is definitely possible, and not at all difficult.  I had some  
working examples in the mm3 branch.  It might be possible to get  
something like this into 2.2.

- -Barry

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Hi! I'll be your intern for the summer :)

[Barry Warsaw]

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On Jun 21, 2006, at 1:47 AM, David Lee wrote:

> One of the things on the TODO list:
>http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/todo.html
> is:
> Allow lists of the same name in two different virtual domains
>
> (i.e. "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" and "[EMAIL PROTECTED]", where  
> "thislist"
> and "thislist" are the same name).

I've started working on this in my 2.2 branch, but haven't ironed out  
all the details yet.  It's a top priority for me, but there are some  
gotchas.  I still think it's doable.

- -Barry

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Hi! I'll be your intern for the summer :)

[Barry Warsaw]

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On Jun 21, 2006, at 10:37 AM, emf wrote:

>> How about this for extra:
>>
>> 1) Display a list of ALL members - just their names and addresses.
>> 2) Delete ALL the list members with one click - OK, and maybe a  
>> confirm
>> dialog!
>
> Hm. This comes slightly in opposition to the desire to have a more
> user-centered mailman interface; what happens if a user changes their
> preferences and you re-build the entire list?
>
> An associated problem is what happens to users that are subbed to  
> >1 list?
>
> I recognize this may not be an issue in your specific case, I just  
> think
> that issues like these will be more of a deal when we don't keep
> "members" in per-list silos.

Definitely, and what about when list memberships come from external  
rosters (e.g. external systems or generated on demand)?

- -Barry

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Hi! I'll be your intern for the summer :)

[Barry Warsaw]

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On Jun 21, 2006, at 3:45 PM, Matthew Newton wrote:

> One thing that happens each year here for some lists is that all
> list members of "course-year2" get moved to "course-year3",
> "course-year1" to "course-year2", and new members added to
> "course-year1". I can do this easily from the command line with a
> "list_members | sync_members", but I'd really prefer the owners to
> be able to do it themselves.
>
> Which reminds me, another thing I've been wanting to add is
> "download members as text file" (basically the same as 1 above),
> which would go together with the sync_members option.

What if we built a framework for site owners to add their own canned  
actions, or a per list or per domain basis?  A list owner wouldn't be  
able to do much more than click a button to invoke the action, but it  
would probably allow you to do both things.

- -Barry

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Hi! I'll be your intern for the summer :)

[Barry Warsaw]

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On Jun 22, 2006, at 3:33 AM, Ian Eiloart wrote:

> Well, our MTA won't accept more than 250 recipients per email, so when
> people need to email several thousand recipients, they have to  
> split their
> recipient lists into blocks. It would be much better to simply  
> paste them
> into a Mailman web UI, and let Mailman handle the details.
>
> Why 250? Well, actually that's because our LDAP server barfs if you  
> make
> more than about 300 queries on one connection. Those queries might be
> validating local email addresses.

Is that per email or per smtp transaction?  If the latter,  
SMTP_MAX_RCPTS handles that.

- -Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Hi! I'll be your intern for the summer :)

[Barry Warsaw]

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On Jun 28, 2006, at 7:34 PM, Terri Oda wrote:

> Oh, goodness, Ethan... I was excited when Barry told me we were  
> getting
> a SoC student to do this, and you sound *exactly* what we need.  I'll
> try to restrain myself from declaring everlasting love until I've seen
> some finished work, but I will say that I'm very happy to have you on
> the project.  (Even if I'll probably have to rewrite all the docs once
> you're done... ;)  )

Can't add much except +1 to everything you said Terri! :)

- -Barry

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Hi! I'll be your intern for the summer :)

[David Lee]

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006, Barry Warsaw wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Jun 21, 2006, at 1:47 AM, David Lee wrote:
>
> > One of the things on the TODO list:
> >http://www.gnu.org/software/mailman/todo.html
> > is:
> > Allow lists of the same name in two different virtual domains
> >
> > (i.e. "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" and "[EMAIL PROTECTED]", where
> > "thislist"
> > and "thislist" are the same name).
>
> I've started working on this in my 2.2 branch, but haven't ironed out
> all the details yet.  It's a top priority for me, but there are some
> gotchas.  I still think it's doable.

Many thanks.  That would be greatly appreciated.  We are a multiple-domain
site (one main, about thirty much smaller), making the transition from
majordomo to Mailman.  In general, Mailman is a huge improvement, but this
lack of true multiple-domain support is a significant retrograde aspect in
our transition.

Is there an estimate of likely timescale for 2.2 ?  (Yes, I know these
things slip!  But approximate: two months?  six months?  a year?)  When
you get to the beta stage, I would hope we could offer to try it.

Thanks.

-- 

:  David LeeI.T. Service  :
:  Senior Systems ProgrammerComputer Centre   :
:   Durham University :
:  http://www.dur.ac.uk/t.d.lee/South Road:
:   Durham DH1 3LE:
:  Phone: +44 191 334 2752  U.K.  :
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Hi! I'll be your intern for the summer :)

[Barry Warsaw]

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On Jun 29, 2006, at 2:46 AM, David Lee wrote:

> Is there an estimate of likely timescale for 2.2 ?  (Yes, I know these
> things slip!  But approximate: two months?  six months?  a year?)   
> When
> you get to the beta stage, I would hope we could offer to try it.

I'd really like to see a 2.2 in 2006, but I haven't worked backward  
to think about what an alpha/beta schedule would look like to  
accomplish that.

- -Barry

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Hi! I'll be your intern for the summer :)

[Ian Eiloart]

--On 29 June 2006 02:40:44 -0700 Barry Warsaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Jun 22, 2006, at 3:33 AM, Ian Eiloart wrote:
>
>> Well, our MTA won't accept more than 250 recipients per email, so when
>> people need to email several thousand recipients, they have to
>> split their
>> recipient lists into blocks. It would be much better to simply
>> paste them
>> into a Mailman web UI, and let Mailman handle the details.
>>
>> Why 250? Well, actually that's because our LDAP server barfs if you
>> make
>> more than about 300 queries on one connection. Those queries might be
>> validating local email addresses.
>
> Is that per email or per smtp transaction?  If the latter,
> SMTP_MAX_RCPTS handles that.
>

Yes, we were forced to set SMTP_MAX_RCPTS to a lowish value, because our 
MTA->LDAP connection breaks after handling a certain number of queries - 
generating hard failures instead of soft. It might be more clever to set a 
number closer to the real limit (360, iirc), and to actually count the 
number of queries made, but it's much simpler to tell people 250 is the 
limit than to tell them they can have as many as the like, as long as there 
are no more than 359 local recipients. Especially as we host some 
apparently remote domains.


-- 
Ian Eiloart
IT Services, University of Sussex
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Hi! I'll be your intern for the summer :)

[Ian Eiloart]

--On 29 June 2006 02:36:10 -0700 Barry Warsaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On Jun 21, 2006, at 10:37 AM, emf wrote:
>
>>> How about this for extra:
>>>
>>> 1) Display a list of ALL members - just their names and addresses.
>>> 2) Delete ALL the list members with one click - OK, and maybe a
>>> confirm
>>> dialog!
>>
>> Hm. This comes slightly in opposition to the desire to have a more
>> user-centered mailman interface; what happens if a user changes their
>> preferences and you re-build the entire list?
>>
>> An associated problem is what happens to users that are subbed to
>> > 1 list?
>>
>> I recognize this may not be an issue in your specific case, I just
>> think
>> that issues like these will be more of a deal when we don't keep
>> "members" in per-list silos.
>
> Definitely, and what about when list memberships come from external
> rosters (e.g. external systems or generated on demand)?
>

Well, then I'd want an interface to delete all the members of a roster. In 
the case of the lists that I'm concerned with, those lists would would only 
have one roster anyway.


-- 
Ian Eiloart
IT Services, University of Sussex
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[Mailman-Developers] bulk subscriber changes

[emf]

Ian Eiloart wrote:

> Well, for some of our lists it's simply inappropriate for users to set 
> preferences. 

OK, I can see this. My query/issue is this: as I understand it, 
completely re-setting the list membership will also reset mailman's 
memory of who bounces, etc. So if any of the new members were old 
members with subscription issues, mailman goes through the same rigamarole.

It still seems to me like "set the active membership of the list to this 
list of email addresses", with existing addresses being retained, 
non-existent addresses dropped/set nomail, and new ones added, would 
address your needs without breaking things in the case that other admins 
use the feature.

Does that sound right/ok?

> So, I could implement this another way, but Mailman also offers me 
> authentication and authorisation, and allows me to ensure proper footers 
> on the emails, and probably some other useful stuff too.

What I hear you saying is you would like "one-off" lists; is it 
important that the list persists? It seems odd, but perhaps what you 
want, to have lists whose membership entirely changes every n mailings 
but retains the same email address.

Are there any regularities to the emails you add? e.g. might the set of 
emails you add after a delete be equivalent to some past set of emails?

I'm just thinking that the example you gave - sending all enquiring 
students a registration-change notice - is a case where you might want 
to keep some knowledge of past email addresses to which you had sent 
notices.

Not that I'm necessarily signing up to implement some "remember past 
emails" kind of thing, but the feature you want could be implemented by, 
for example, setting all the emails that don't occur in the most recent 
set to nomail, rather than just throwing them away.

~ethan

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] bulk subscriber changes

[Ian Eiloart]

--On 29 June 2006 09:39:28 -0400 emf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ian Eiloart wrote:
>
>> Well, for some of our lists it's simply inappropriate for users to set
>> preferences.
>
> OK, I can see this. My query/issue is this: as I understand it,
> completely re-setting the list membership will also reset mailman's
> memory of who bounces, etc. So if any of the new members were old
> members with subscription issues, mailman goes through the same
> rigamarole.
>
> It still seems to me like "set the active membership of the list to this
> list of email addresses", with existing addresses being retained,
> non-existent addresses dropped/set nomail, and new ones added, would
> address your needs without breaking things in the case that other admins
> use the feature.
>
> Does that sound right/ok?

Yes, that sounds good. I'd be uploading a list of addresses to be synced 
with the current membership.

>> So, I could implement this another way, but Mailman also offers me
>> authentication and authorisation, and allows me to ensure proper footers
>> on the emails, and probably some other useful stuff too.
>
> What I hear you saying is you would like "one-off" lists; is it
> important that the list persists? It seems odd, but perhaps what you
> want, to have lists whose membership entirely changes every n mailings
> but retains the same email address.

Well, the list still retains knowledge of who is allowed to post. And - 
importantly - it handles the grunt work of actually getting the emails sent.

> Are there any regularities to the emails you add? e.g. might the set of
> emails you add after a delete be equivalent to some past set of emails?
>
> I'm just thinking that the example you gave - sending all enquiring
> students a registration-change notice - is a case where you might want
> to keep some knowledge of past email addresses to which you had sent
> notices.
>
> Not that I'm necessarily signing up to implement some "remember past
> emails" kind of thing, but the feature you want could be implemented by,
> for example, setting all the emails that don't occur in the most recent
> set to nomail, rather than just throwing them away.
>
> ~ethan

Erm, perhaps. It would still be nice to be able to delete all the members, 
though. For example, I can bulk subscribe a list of people. If I then 
notice that I've subscribed them to the wrong list, it's a pain to get them 
unsubscribed.

-- 
Ian Eiloart
IT Services, University of Sussex
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] bulk subscriber changes

[emf]

Ian Eiloart wrote:

> Yes, that sounds good. I'd be uploading a list of addresses to be synced 
> with the current membership.

Great! I'll go this route.

> Erm, perhaps. It would still be nice to be able to delete all the 
> members, though. For example, I can bulk subscribe a list of people. If 
> I then notice that I've subscribed them to the wrong list, it's a pain 
> to get them unsubscribed.

Yes, I very much want mass-manipulation :) as well. In addition to bulk 
unsub, I'm extending the membership management thingy to allow for 
iterative searches (preserving existing results) so that you can quickly 
get to a set of email addresses you'd like to perform some operation on.

~ethan
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Acessibility Testing Tools (was Re: Hi! I'll be your intern for the summer :))

[emf]

Laura Carlson wrote:

> David Andrews already mentioned the demo versions of JAWS and 
> Window-Eyes [1].

I'll use the firefox jawsy thing and see what I can do past that point 
once I get windows on this box.

> Home Page Reader [3] is also a good tool for web developers and 
> designers who are looking to try out a speaking browser.

I think I can make OS X read pages, too, so I'll poke into that.

> One of the tools that I have my students use is to test forms is the 
> WAVE. [5]  It will spot violations like missing labels, labels not 
> associated with inputs, empty labels, etc. and notify you with icons. 
> [6]

Great! I will use that and Cynthia.

> There's a great little Colour Contrast Analyser Firefox Extension [8] 

OOh, neat! I heart firefox's extensibility. I already use color-scheme 
generators (and stay away from shade-changes only), but this will be a 
help, as I happen to be a boy blessed with a fully functioning X 
chromosome and have no colour blindness.

~ethan
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] SoC: status update

[emf]

Tokio Kikuchi wrote:
> Hi Ethan,
> 
> Since you are working on Web Interface, I have an important 
> suggestion/request on the charset we use.

We will use UTF-8 exclusively on WUI, with the caveat that I will be 
sniffing any charset information contained in emails and attempt 
displaying (individual) emails with the charset referenced.

Pretty please, I need to set up a copy of someone's translation 
toolchain; can someone using OS X or Linux as their work operating 
system work with me to get an *exact* replica of their toolset?

I want to make translating as painless as possible but from what I can 
tell so far gettext is very low level and I suspect that people use more 
than just it to translate... am I right?

~ethan
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[Mailman-Developers] ids, javascript, and Forms Acessibility

[emf]

Laura Carlson wrote:


> I would caution against using implicit labels.

I think your advice is correct. Here is the conundrum that had me using 
implicit labels in the first place:

a.) All mailman page-elements need to be embeddable into other pages; 
this means that I can't collide with unknown id's elsewhere on the page. 
Not too much of a problem; I can have a Mm- prefix to denote mailman ids.

b.) Many form elements will repeat. One example is a user looking at the 
options for >1 list at a time. Also, a.) means I can't know how many of 
"me" (where I'm a form-chunk) a site administrator has imbedded into the 
page.

Of course, "talking it out" has presented a potential solution; let me 
know if it seems off.

I'm thinking of using Kid to generate pseudo-random numbers for ids. 
This works great, except when someone wants to use an id selector in CSS 
or getElementById() in JavaScript.

If I do this, I'll have to use class attributes (which happily can 
contain many values) to disambiguate form elements for JavaScript, and 
JavaScript will have to add/remove class attributes to change display 
for CSS. This is fine save that View Source becomes more opaque for 
someone who just knows CSS and HTML.

> - Keep the number of accesskeys to a minimum.

The only accesskeys I want to provide would be for speeding moderation.
I'm filing the rest of your advice in the wiki, so that I may keep it in 
mind.

> TABINDEX
> 
> having a sensible natural order to start 
> with, meets WCAG requirements for HTML documents.

I think this is a good idea, but I'm not going to control the global 
order of the pages the controls sit in, which is probably an argument 
for forgoing tabindex all together.

> If the tabindex attribute is not assigned to all fields, JAWS first 
> moves through the items with a tabindex assigned, then moves through 
> the other form fields and links in the order they appear on the page.

This is interesting. I have some "global" controls I was going to have 
sit "on top" of the content, and float it right. Now it sounds like I 
should put the global controls after the content, and use absolute 
positioning to put them on the right. Constrains the page-flow a bit 
more than I would like, but it is probably worth it.

On the other hand, the first form element in the global control set is 
"turn global controls on/off" so perhaps that won't be that much of a 
bother.

~ethan
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Accessibility Testing Tools (was Re: Hi! I'll be your intern for the summer :))

[David Andrews]

If you have OSX10.4 Tiger there is a built-in screen reader called Voice Over.  
I believe it is command-F5 to bring it up, but could be wrong there.  I have 
only used it briefly, and not at all with the web, but could probably get 
access to a machine at work.

Dave

At 11:54 AM 6/29/2006, emf wrote:
>Laura Carlson wrote:
>
>> David Andrews already mentioned the demo versions of JAWS and 
>> Window-Eyes [1].
>
>I'll use the firefox jawsy thing and see what I can do past that point 
>once I get windows on this box.
>
>> Home Page Reader [3] is also a good tool for web developers and 
>> designers who are looking to try out a speaking browser.
>
>I think I can make OS X read pages, too, so I'll poke into that.
>
>> One of the tools that I have my students use is to test forms is the 
>> WAVE. [5]  It will spot violations like missing labels, labels not 
>> associated with inputs, empty labels, etc. and notify you with icons. 
>> [6]
>
>Great! I will use that and Cynthia.
>
>> There's a great little Colour Contrast Analyser Firefox Extension [8] 
>
>OOh, neat! I heart firefox's extensibility. I already use color-scheme 
>generators (and stay away from shade-changes only), but this will be a 
>help, as I happen to be a boy blessed with a fully functioning X 
>chromosome and have no colour blindness.
>
>~ethan
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Accessibility Testing Tools (was Re: Hi! I'll be your intern for the summer :))

[Brad Knowles]

David Andrews said:

> If you have OSX10.4 Tiger there is a built-in screen reader called Voice
> Over.  I believe it is command-F5 to bring it up, but could be wrong
> there.  I have only used it briefly, and not at all with the web, but
> could probably get access to a machine at work.

Correct, this works with MacOS X 10.4 Tiger.  I've tried VoiceOver just to
play around with it a bit, and I didn't like it.  I turned it back off
soon thereafter.  I wouldn't want to be dependant on a program like this
for all my web access.

But if someone wants me to do some specific testing, please let me know. 
This is now my main machine, and I have both Safari and Firefox, and I can
install a number of other browsers for testing purposes (including Opera,
Camino, etc...).

-- 
Brad Knowles, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

 -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
 Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

  LOPSA member since December 2005.  See .
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