Re: [Mailman-Developers] UI for Mailman 3.0 update
On Sun, Jun 06, 2010 at 11:44:07PM +0200, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: >* Geoff Shang : >> Note that people who use magnification (i.e. who have low vision) >> are going to have differing requirements from those who use speech >> or Braille output via screen readers. Ideally the UI would work >> well for both groups but I'm not qualified to talk about the former, >> only the latter. > >Yes, thank you. I was aware of that and I have to admit I don't know yet what >qualities exactly will be required to create an interface that works equally >well for both groups. Unless someone has a better idea I guess we will just >have to do 'a best guess', then measure and improve in an iterative manner. I know some people that use magnification. I can ask them to test also the new MM WUI or ask them for their needs regarding a new user interface. >> Disclaimer: I am not deaf. A deaf person should be consulted about >> the requirements that deaf people may have. > >Yes, good idea. Are there any deaf people on this list who might be able to >shed some light on this? I also can help out on this point maybe, because I also have friends that are deaf or work for a big German organization for deaf people. @p...@trick: Maybe I can also arrange a meeting with these people, they also live in Munich. Regards, Schoepp -- Christian Schoepplein signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] UI for Mailman 3.0 update
* Christian Schoepplein : > >* Geoff Shang : > >> Note that people who use magnification (i.e. who have low vision) > >> are going to have differing requirements from those who use speech > >> or Braille output via screen readers. Ideally the UI would work > >> well for both groups but I'm not qualified to talk about the former, > >> only the latter. > > > >Yes, thank you. I was aware of that and I have to admit I don't know yet what > >qualities exactly will be required to create an interface that works equally > >well for both groups. Unless someone has a better idea I guess we will just > >have to do 'a best guess', then measure and improve in an iterative manner. > > I know some people that use magnification. I can ask them to test also the > new MM WUI or ask them for their needs regarding a new user interface. Great. > >> Disclaimer: I am not deaf. A deaf person should be consulted about > >> the requirements that deaf people may have. > > > >Yes, good idea. Are there any deaf people on this list who might be able to > >shed some light on this? > > I also can help out on this point maybe, because I also have friends > that are deaf or work for a big German organization for deaf people. Even better. > @p...@trick: Maybe I can also arrange a meeting with these people, they also > live in Munich. That would be perfect. Should we all meet before we start working on the new WUI so we can take the input into consideration right from the start? p...@rick -- state of mind Digitale Kommunikation http://www.state-of-mind.de Franziskanerstraße 15 Telefon +49 89 3090 4664 81669 München Telefax +49 89 3090 4666 Amtsgericht MünchenPartnerschaftsregister PR 563 signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] UI for Mailman 3.0 update
On Mon, Jun 07, 2010 at 09:16:58AM +0200, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: >* Christian Schoepplein : >> >* Geoff Shang : >> >> Note that people who use magnification (i.e. who have low vision) >> >> are going to have differing requirements from those who use speech >> >> or Braille output via screen readers. Ideally the UI would work >> >> well for both groups but I'm not qualified to talk about the former, >> >> only the latter. >> > >> >Yes, thank you. I was aware of that and I have to admit I don't know yet >> >what >> >qualities exactly will be required to create an interface that works equally >> >well for both groups. Unless someone has a better idea I guess we will just >> >have to do 'a best guess', then measure and improve in an iterative manner. >> >> I know some people that use magnification. I can ask them to test also the >> new MM WUI or ask them for their needs regarding a new user interface. > >Great. > >> >> Disclaimer: I am not deaf. A deaf person should be consulted about >> >> the requirements that deaf people may have. >> > >> >Yes, good idea. Are there any deaf people on this list who might be able to >> >shed some light on this? >> >> I also can help out on this point maybe, because I also have friends >> that are deaf or work for a big German organization for deaf people. > >Even better. > >> @p...@trick: Maybe I can also arrange a meeting with these people, they also >> live in Munich. > >That would be perfect. Should we all meet before we start working on the new >WUI so we can take the input into consideration right from the start? IMHO it is easier to talk / discuss about real things than about things that should be done theoreticaly :). So I'd suggest to meet if a early draft of the new WUI is available. Regards, Schoepp -- Christian Schoepplein signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] UI for Mailman 3.0 update
On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 12:00 PM, wrote: > ... >That would be perfect. Should we all meet before we start working on the > new >WUI so we can take the input into consideration right from the start? > IMHO it is easier to talk / discuss about real things than about things > that should be done theoreticaly :). So I'd suggest to meet if a early > draft of the new WUI is available. > Please keep the rest of us, or at least myself and Florian, posted about your discussions when meeting IRL. I believe you Patrick work together with Florian so I guess that should be easy enough. :) In German or English doesn't really matter unless you want to post it to this list... Thanks, Anna ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] spammers harvesting email'ids [was] UI for Mailman 3.0 update
On Jun 05, 2010, at 04:21 PM, स्वक्ष wrote: >On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 22:43, Mark Sapiro wrote: >> Ian Eiloart wrote: >>> >>>Well, maybe, but I've had to switch on approval for various lists because >>>of subscribing spammers. >> >> >> As Barry suggests, setting moderation of new members as the default can >> also thwart the subscribing spammers. > >A smart spammer would hardly post to the mailing list --atleast on >linux lists its asking to be moderated or kicked out, depending on the >admins. At the very least, we want to make it has hard as possible for spammers to spam people *through* a mailing list. >I've checked out spammers who mass subscribe to the lists at Debian, >Ubuntu, Fedora and RH, to access the email id's of all the subscribers >(if this is set as available only to the list members). If the >settings are "membership list is available only to the *-owner", the >spammer can still subscribe, and lurk on the list to silently harvest >the email id's of all the folks who post mails to any list they lurk >on. The latter can be identified by checking their TLD when they sub >to the list but if they use *-free-email-provider like a gmail or >yahoo address to sub and lurk, its hard to tell. We can try to make it more difficult to harvest email address from mailing list archives and posts, but some of that is fairly difficult without disrupting the usability of the mailing list. -Barry signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] UI for Mailman 3.0 update
On Jun 06, 2010, at 04:29 PM, Cristóbal Palmer wrote: >On Fri, Jun 04, 2010 at 09:58:12AM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote: >> >> As Barry suggests, setting moderation of new members as the default can >> also thwart the subscribing spammers. > >The ability to use reCAPTCHA or other CAPTCHA systems as part of the >web signup would also significantly reduce spammy signups, so if we >could have MM3 ship with a CAPTCHA system and/or support for a class >of CAPTCHA systems in the default web UI, that would be super. I personally hate captcha systems because I think they all have horrible usability issues. But I understand the appeal so I think I would vote against enabling such things by default, but would support allowing it to be added fairly easily. >Is there a good place in the wiki for me to stick this suggestion, or >will somebody who knows where it should go do that? Probably start here: http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Web+Interface but I think with the ramp up of work on the wui, these pages could use some gardening and reorganization. Any volunteers? -Barry signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] UI for Mailman 3.0 update
On Jun 05, 2010, at 07:52 PM, Geoff Shang wrote: >I realise that Mailman 3.x will make it possible to create multiple UIs, >as the functionality will be separated from the UI. However, it is also >my experience that alternate/specialised UIs can and do go unmaintained, >and as such it is my hope that the (or at least a) standard UI shipped by >default with Mailman will provide the needed accessibility. > >So this is one of the reasons why I'm on this list, to keep an eye on >developments and hopefully provide some feedback when a test server >becomes available. That's great Geoff, we appreciate all your help in understanding the issues and driving toward a ui that's at least as usable as the MM 2.1 interface is. I have a general question though: given that Mailman 3 will be scriptable, is that a better long term solution than screen scraping? We still need to work out the security model for public access (i.e. OAuth, a proxy to the internal admin interface, etc), but I think it'll be very cool to write the scripts you want and actually interact with Mailman without using a wui. >1. At least one UI with no *necessary* javascript. Maybe this won't be >the main UI, but as a person who uses the Linux console with a text-mode >browser, I like the fact that I can quickly fire up my browser to deal >with a moderator request with no fuss. Given that a package like >Squirrelmail can operate completely without Javascript if the user >chooses, this should surely be possible. +1. We want links/lynx users to be able to use the site. >2. Proper use of the label tag in association with form elements. This >was (or seemed to be done) fairly well for the most part, with the >exception of those checkboxes I mentioned, but I'd hate to see this lost. >What this means in practice is that screen readers will read the >appropriate label text when focusing upon a form element. > >There's probably other important stuff, but this is all that comes to mind >right now. > >Other non-accessibility-related things which I think are worth considering >are: > >1. More useful archives with search capability. I'm sure this is on a >dozen wishlists. Indeed. :) You know that song by the Bare Naked Ladies? Well, if *I* had a million dollars, I'd write a killer new open source mail archiver. :) >2. A friendlier front page per list. Surely having 3 forms on the front >page (or is it 4?) is a bit intimidating to some. Definitely. >I've got some other feature requests based on 2.1.x functionality but I'll >post that somewhere else more appropriate. Looking forward to it! -Barry signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] UI for Mailman 3.0 update
On Jun 06, 2010, at 09:50 PM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: >For this summer (of code) Anna has joined the team and I believe if Barry >manages to do more work on the REST server and IMAP backend - *HINT* *HINT* - >we will soon be able to present an early version of MM3 to test and play with >while we bring it to a stable state. Hint taken. :) -Barry signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] UI for Mailman 3.0 update
I could look into reorganizing the pages since I'll be working with the UI anyways but I'm not sure how to "gard" them (might be that I don't have the rights to do so though)? Anyone else willing to help out is of course welcome to do so. Anna On Mon, Jun 7, 2010 at 8:41 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: > ... > Probably start here: > > http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Web+Interface > > but I think with the ramp up of work on the wui, these pages could use some > gardening and reorganization. Any volunteers? > > -Barry > > ___ > Mailman-Developers mailing list > Mailman-Developers@python.org > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers > Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 > Searchable Archives: > http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ > Unsubscribe: > http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/anna.granudd%40gmail.com > > Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 > ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] UI for Mailman 3.0 update
On Jun 07, 2010, at 09:16 AM, Patrick Ben Koetter wrote: >That would be perfect. Should we all meet before we start working on the new >WUI so we can take the input into consideration right from the start? Although I wouldn't be able to make that in person, please do use the bug tracker to request any new features of the REST interface. You can always tag them with 'mailman3' to get my attention. -Barry signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
