Re: [Mailman-Developers] Signaling One-Click Functionality for List Email Headers

[John R Levine]

On Sun, 21 May 2017, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

> >Is that something mailman(2|3) should support? To me it looks
> >useful.

Personally I am +1 on "patches welcome" until users start asking for
it (including via list and site managers).  Until I see evidence of
intent to use, I'm not excited about putting the effort into
developing and maintaining it myself.


I wouldn't disagree.  It's nice, but I wouldn't put it at the top of the 
list of things to add.


One-click is much more important for commercial mailers who tend to add 
people to lists who don't want to be there (e.g., everyone who ever 
provides an e-mail address with an order) and need to make unsubscribes as 
easy as possible.  If a recipient ends up on a Mailman list without 
wanting to be there, something's wrong.


Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Signaling One-Click Functionality for List Email Headers

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

John Levine writes:
> Patrick wrote:

 > >Is that something mailman(2|3) should support? To me it looks
 > >useful.

Personally I am +1 on "patches welcome" until users start asking for
it (including via list and site managers).  Until I see evidence of
intent to use, I'm not excited about putting the effort into
developing and maintaining it myself.

 > It would certainly make it easier to deal with grumpy gmail users,
 > since gmail does not provide junk button feedback.
 > 
 > The disadvantage is that every recipient needs to get a separate copy
 > of each message, because the list and user info has to be encoded in
 > the list-unsubscribe URL.  That's been standard in commercial e-mail
 > for a decade, but a lot of discussion list operators still imagine
 > that it's too slow.

I wouldn't have a problem with experimenting with enabling
personalization by default in Mailman 3 to get experience with it.

I would oppose it in Mailman 2 at this point in its lifecycle because
throttling of hosted lists is still a FAQ, and (at least
theoretically) multiple recipient transactions can alleviate those
limits.

Steve
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Signaling One-Click Functionality for List Email Headers

[John Levine]

In article  you write:
>On 05/10/2017 12:18 PM, John Levine wrote:
>> In article <20170510133609.61fba...@subdivisions.wooz.org> you write:
>>> I probably need more convincing that it would actually be used out in the
>>> field, ...
>> 
>> Gmail's already implemented it.  I'm pretty sure Yahoo is also planning to.
>
>Are you saying Google Groups and maybe Yahoo Groups are adding the
>headers or their web mail clients are/will be supporting it?

The latter.  If you mark something as junk in the gmail client and it
has the appropriate headers, Gmail will offer the option to
unsubscribe, and that'll be one-click.  Remember that this is mostly
intended for bulk advertising mail which gets reported as spam all the
time.

>I agree with Barry that personalization is not the big performance hit
>it once was, but there are admins that don't want to enable Mailman's
>VERP or allow personalization because they think it is.

Then they can't use one-click, either.  Their loss.

Speaking of Gmail, they tell me they're now adding ARC headers on
mail forwarded through Google Groups and looking at ARC when making
spam filtering decisions.

>I'm still concerned that mainstream MUAs including web mail clients
>won't support it for some time if ever.

Like I said, Gmail supports it now.

R's,
John
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Signaling One-Click Functionality for List Email Headers

[Mark Sapiro]

On 05/10/2017 12:18 PM, John Levine wrote:
> In article <20170510133609.61fba...@subdivisions.wooz.org> you write:
>> I probably need more convincing that it would actually be used out in the
>> field, ...
> 
> Gmail's already implemented it.  I'm pretty sure Yahoo is also planning to.


Are you saying Google Groups and maybe Yahoo Groups are adding the
headers or their web mail clients are/will be supporting it?

Given that Gmail's web mail client doesn't seem to offer "reply to list"
when there's a List-Post: header, the latter seems unlikely.

I have tried one-click unsubscribe in message footers, and this is
generally not a good idea because of people unwittingly
replying/forwarding a post with their personal link to others and then
others unsubscribing the first person thinking they are unsubscribing
themselves.

This is a header, so it normally won't be included in a forward or
reply, so that issue is moot and makes the RFC 8058 method attractive.

I agree with Barry that personalization is not the big performance hit
it once was, but there are admins that don't want to enable Mailman's
VERP or allow personalization because they think it is. In MM 2.1 at
least, we could avoid that issue by only adding the personalized
unsubscribe link if the delivery were already personalized or VERPed.

I'm still concerned that mainstream MUAs including web mail clients
won't support it for some time if ever.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Signaling One-Click Functionality for List Email Headers

[John Levine]

In article <20170510133609.61fba...@subdivisions.wooz.org> you write:
>I probably need more convincing that it would actually be used out in the
>field, ...

Gmail's already implemented it.  I'm pretty sure Yahoo is also planning to.

>  But OTOH, if it's of some utility it doesn't look
>like it would be difficult in core to support the extra header.  We'd need a
>small bit of REST and db schema/style setting work so that the list itself
>could be configured for one-click or not, depending on the web u/i being
>used.  (E.g. maybe one-click unsub is supported in Postorius, but other sites
>might not support it.)

Keep in mind that the list and user info have to be encoded in the
existing List-Unsubscribe header, and one-click just adds a fixed
List-Unsubscribe-Post header to tell the recipient that it can do a
POST for one click.  The encoded header makes regular unsub work
better too, since it knows what address to remove and needn't ask the
user.

R's,
John

>>It would certainly make it easier to deal with grumpy gmail users,
>>since gmail does not provide junk button feedback.
>
>Let's call that the Grumpy 800lb Gorilla principle. :)

Yes indeed.
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Signaling One-Click Functionality for List Email Headers

[Barry Warsaw]

On May 10, 2017, at 05:05 PM, John Levine wrote:

>>I'm not sure if anyone has followed development of RFC 8058 "Signaling
>>One-Click Functionality for List Email Headers" located at
>> and brought this topic up on this
>>list.
>>
>>Is that something mailman(2|3) should support? To me it looks useful.

I probably need more convincing that it would actually be used out in the
field, since there are a lot of email standards that have been ignored (by
some tools) for decades.  But OTOH, if it's of some utility it doesn't look
like it would be difficult in core to support the extra header.  We'd need a
small bit of REST and db schema/style setting work so that the list itself
could be configured for one-click or not, depending on the web u/i being
used.  (E.g. maybe one-click unsub is supported in Postorius, but other sites
might not support it.)

>It would certainly make it easier to deal with grumpy gmail users,
>since gmail does not provide junk button feedback.

Let's call that the Grumpy 800lb Gorilla principle. :)

>The disadvantage is that every recipient needs to get a separate copy
>of each message, because the list and user info has to be encoded in
>the list-unsubscribe URL.  That's been standard in commercial e-mail
>for a decade, but a lot of discussion list operators still imagine
>that it's too slow.

For a while now I've thought about changing the defaults to individual
personalization (i.e. everyone gets a unique copy, but we don't modify the
headers).  I think the constraints leading us to no personalization may not
be all that prevalent any more, and there's no question that personalization
improves the user experience.

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Signaling One-Click Functionality for List Email Headers

[John Levine]

In article <20170510120723.xgg3apmj65cmv...@sys4.de> you write:
>Greetings,
>
>I'm not sure if anyone has followed development of RFC 8058 "Signaling
>One-Click Functionality for List Email Headers" located at
> and brought this topic up on this
>list.
>
>Is that something mailman(2|3) should support? To me it looks useful.

It would certainly make it easier to deal with grumpy gmail users,
since gmail does not provide junk button feedback.

The disadvantage is that every recipient needs to get a separate copy
of each message, because the list and user info has to be encoded in
the list-unsubscribe URL.  That's been standard in commercial e-mail
for a decade, but a lot of discussion list operators still imagine
that it's too slow.

R's,
John
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[Mailman-Developers] Signaling One-Click Functionality for List Email Headers

[Patrick Ben Koetter]

Greetings,

I'm not sure if anyone has followed development of RFC 8058 "Signaling
One-Click Functionality for List Email Headers" located at
 and brought this topic up on this
list.

Is that something mailman(2|3) should support? To me it looks useful.

p@rick


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