Re: [Mailman-Users] spam, spamcop and mailman moderation

[stephen]

Brad Knowles writes:

 > At 10:23 AM +0900 11/11/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 > 
 > >  The second is that for a bounded cost[1], you can implement signed mail.
 > 
 > For dozens of years, we've been telling people that once they have 
 > enough RAM and fast enough disk drives, the single biggest bottleneck 
 > in scaling up large mail systems is the filesystem, and overhead with 
 > regards to sychronous meta-data updates.
 > 
 > Signed mail causes the CPU of the mail server to have to do expensive 
 > crypto calculations that are many, many orders of magnitude beyond 
 > anything that had ever been done in the past, on a per-message basis.

If you insist that the server do the signature, yes.  Did you miss the
part where I said you have to educate users for this to work?

I'm not proposing this seriously, because I don't expect the average
user to be willing to learn anything as long as AOL and GMail promise
to do it all for them.  What I'm trying to do is outline what will be
necessary, just in case there's some educator who's more charismatic
than me. :-(

 > At that point, you might as well just shut down all Internet e-mail anyway.

For those who don't sign their messages, yes.  The rest of us will be
back in the friendly-user world because only our friends will be able
to send us mail. :-/

 > Actually, spammers have totally unlimited CPU power available to 
 > them, so they might be the only ones on the planet who are able to 
 > handle doing signed e-mail for all messages.

Because they are using owned machines, you mean.  Well, if those
machines can do crypto for the spammers, they can do crypto for their
nominal owners.  And if email is going to survive, by your
projections, they're going to have to.

 > It doesn't matter that the signed message is actually traceable back 
 > to a particular person, it just matters that it's signed.

Then it's just hashcash, and it can't scale.  We already knew that.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Temporary local problem - please try later

[J.R. Constance]

I am using Exim, and here is the corresponding error from the  
exim_rejecting log for this smtp-failure entry.

2006-11-12 18:33:44 H=localhost (frodo.clshost.com) [127.0.0.1]  
sender verify defer for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: error in  
redirect data: missing or malformed local part (expected word or "<")  
in ":blackhole"
2006-11-12 18:33:44 H=localhost (frodo.clshost.com) [127.0.0.1]  
F=<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> temporarily rejected RCPT  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Could not complete sender verify

I have had a situation with this domain where some spammers seem to  
be using the domain as a return address and getting a lot of  
rejections for emails that we weren't sending, so I set the default  
address folr ascls-lists.org to :blackhole so that I wasn't getting  
all of the rejections. Could that be causing a problem?

The [EMAIL PROTECTED] address is my main email address, and seems to  
work fine. I do receive email from the ascls-lists.org mailing lists  
on a regular basis to that address.

I will look through the FAQ entries, and will also recheck the DNS  
configuration.

Thanks,

J.R.

On Nov 12, 2006, at 8:56 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:

> At 8:43 PM -0700 11/12/06, J.R. Constance wrote:
>
>>  I have something like 18 lines in the failure log either with
>>  this 451 error or with s. Any idea what could be causing this?
>
> I've been using Unix and the Internet for over twenty-two years, a  
> professional Unix system administrator for over seventeen years,  
> and specializing in managing Internet e-mail systems for over  
> fourteen years.
>
> Congratulations, this is a first -- I don't recall having ever seen  
> this particular error message before in my life.  And at this stage  
> in my career, I don't get too many of those.
>
>
> This is almost certainly a problem in your local MTA, where Mailman  
> is unable to hand off messages to the mail server for some reason.
>
> What MTA are you using -- is it Exim?  How is that configured?   
> Have you checked the MTA logs, to see what it says about this  
> issue?  Have you checked to make sure that your DNS is configured  
> correctly?
>
> Have you checked the relevant FAQ entries regarding MTA problems  
> and non-delivery issues?
>
> Have you checked your MTA configuration to make sure that it is  
> turning off all anti-spam/anti-virus checks for all outbound  
> messages, as suggested in the FAQ?  If you can't do that, can you  
> at least confirm that your anti-virus scanning system is working  
> properly?
>
> -- 
> Brad Knowles, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Trend Micro has announced that they will cancel the stop.mail- 
> abuse.org
> mail forwarding service as of 15 November 2006.  If you have an old
> e-mail account for me at this domain, please make sure you correct  
> that
> with the current address.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Temporary local problem - please try later

[Thomas Hochstein]

Brad Knowles schrieb:

> I've been using Unix and the Internet for over twenty-two years, a 
> professional Unix system administrator for over seventeen years, and 
> specializing in managing Internet e-mail systems for over fourteen 
> years.
>
> Congratulations, this is a first -- I don't recall having ever seen 
> this particular error message before in my life.

Your experience does not cover Exim too much, then. :) Exactly that
message is quite common with a misconfiguration.

> What MTA are you using -- is it Exim?  How is that configured?  Have 
> you checked the MTA logs, to see what it says about this issue?

Ack. That should do the trick.

-thh
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Temporary local problem - please try later

[Mark Sapiro]

J.R. Constance wrote:

>I am seeing the following error in my smtp-failure log
>
>Nov 12 18:33:44 2006 (18367) All recipients refused:  
>{'[EMAIL PROTECTED]': (451, 'Temporary local problem - please try  
>later')}, msgid: [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Nov 12 18:33:44 2006 (18367) delivery to [EMAIL PROTECTED] failed with  
>code 451: Temporary local problem - please try later
>
>I have something like 18 lines in the failure log either with  
>this 451 error or with s. Any idea what could be causing this?


Brad has given several good suggestions in his reply. I just want to
add that this is a Mailman generated message (from the message-id). It
is almost certainly an owner notification of some kind sent to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and then being
resent to the list owner.

Is the address [EMAIL PROTECTED] deliverable? What do you see in the
MTA's log. What happens if you try to send to [EMAIL PROTECTED] from
some MUA via the same MTA connection?

Also, the 451 is being returned by the MTA directly to Mailman's
SMTPDirect.py handler during the SMTP delivery, and the message is
queued for retry. Thus, this may be just one or a few messages, each
being retried every 15 minutes.

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Temporary local problem - please try later

[Brad Knowles]

At 8:43 PM -0700 11/12/06, J.R. Constance wrote:

>  I have something like 18 lines in the failure log either with
>  this 451 error or with s. Any idea what could be causing this?

I've been using Unix and the Internet for over twenty-two years, a 
professional Unix system administrator for over seventeen years, and 
specializing in managing Internet e-mail systems for over fourteen 
years.

Congratulations, this is a first -- I don't recall having ever seen 
this particular error message before in my life.  And at this stage 
in my career, I don't get too many of those.


This is almost certainly a problem in your local MTA, where Mailman 
is unable to hand off messages to the mail server for some reason.

What MTA are you using -- is it Exim?  How is that configured?  Have 
you checked the MTA logs, to see what it says about this issue?  Have 
you checked to make sure that your DNS is configured correctly?

Have you checked the relevant FAQ entries regarding MTA problems and 
non-delivery issues?

Have you checked your MTA configuration to make sure that it is 
turning off all anti-spam/anti-virus checks for all outbound 
messages, as suggested in the FAQ?  If you can't do that, can you at 
least confirm that your anti-virus scanning system is working 
properly?

-- 
Brad Knowles, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Trend Micro has announced that they will cancel the stop.mail-abuse.org
mail forwarding service as of 15 November 2006.  If you have an old
e-mail account for me at this domain, please make sure you correct that
with the current address.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] spam, spamcop and mailman moderation

[Brad Knowles]

At 12:11 PM -0500 11/12/06, John A. Martin wrote:

> I
>  suspect you would agree that otherwise action should not be
>  recommended to be taken based upon the data contained in header
>  fields.

I would agree that the RFC guidelines should be followed, and if they 
are met then certain actions could be taken in response.

Where I think we disagree is whether or not SPF is capable of 
actually meeting those requirements.  However, there may be other 
methods which might be capable of meeting those requirements, and 
they might also be reflected in a header which can be matched as a 
regular expression, so I agree that the general point is valid.

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[Mailman-Users] Temporary local problem - please try later

[J.R. Constance]

I am seeing the following error in my smtp-failure log

Nov 12 18:33:44 2006 (18367) All recipients refused:  
{'[EMAIL PROTECTED]': (451, 'Temporary local problem - please try  
later')}, msgid: 
Nov 12 18:33:44 2006 (18367) delivery to [EMAIL PROTECTED] failed with  
code 451: Temporary local problem - please try later

I have something like 18 lines in the failure log either with  
this 451 error or with s. Any idea what could be causing this?

Thanks,

J.R. Constance


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Difficulties with mailman 2.1.5

[Mark Sapiro]

Brad Knowles wrote:

>At 3:47 PM -0500 11/11/06, Alan McConnell wrote:




Brad has covered this pretty well, but here's a bit more.


>>  1.  It often takes two or more repetitions to log on to the
>>  administrative page.  I am always careful about typing my
>>  password.
>
>On first blush, this sounds a lot like the problem discussed in FAQ 
>4.65 at 
>. 
>However, that problem would require you to always re-enter your 
>password, as opposed to something that would always work on the 
>second try.


Does the login page report an "Authorization failed." error, and a
second or third try succeeds? If so, I don't think the FAQ articles
are applicable in this case. If you're sure you are entering the
password correctly with no extra spaces, I don't know what could cause
this on a regular basis. Does the URI in the browser address bar
change after the failure?


>You will also want to read the related FAQ entries 4.45 and 4.71 
>(links included in the entry for FAQ 4.65 mentioned above).
>
>>  2.  When I go to the Membership Management/mass subscription
>>  page to subscribe a new member, this subscription often does
>>  not "take".  I get a nice screen saying "X is successfully
>>  subscribed", and I get E-mail saying that "X has been subscribed",
>>  but when I check it turns out that X is not in the list of
>>  members.  I find it remarkable that confirmation messages are
>>  sent out, without the file of list members having been successfully
>>  written.
>
>My guess is that this is related to issue #1 above, and if you can 
>get that problem fixed then this one seems that it would be likely to 
>also go away.


As Brad suggests, this may be related to the first issue. The only way
I see that this can happen is if the actual write of the confirmation
screen by the CGI encounters an exception. In this case, the updated
list will not have been saved, however, if this were to occur, you
should see the "we hit a bug" screen instead of the confirmation
screen, and the error should be logged in Mailman's 'error' log. Are
there any tracebacks in the 'error' log?


 
>>  3.  Worst of all: I want messages sent by our members to be
>>  sent also to the member that sent them.  This is not at present
>>  occurring.  I have _not_ checked the button in
>>  General Options -- Additional Settings -- Do not send a
>>  copy of a member's own post


This only controls the default of the "not metoo" setting for new
members.


>>  Also, in the Membership list, the entry "not metoo" has _not_
>>  been checked.I can find no other place where this behavior
>>  can be changed.


Other things to check.

Is the poster subscribed to 'messages' and not 'digests' ('digest'
unchecked in the Membership list)?

Is delivery enabled for the poster ('nomail' unchecked in the
Membership list)?

Does the poster have 'nodupes' checked in the Membership list? If so,
AND the poster is included in a To: or Cc: header of the post - e.g.,
the poster Cc's herself - she won't receive a copy from the list.

Does the poster use gmail? Gmail will not save a received message which
duplicates one already in the 'conversation'. I.e., poster sends a
post, and gmail saves it in 'Sent Mail'. Then when gmail receives the
post from the list, it is a duplicate of the message in 'Sent Mail' so
it is not saved. There may be other services or user MUAs that behave
similarly.

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] spam, spamcop and mailman moderation

[John A. Martin]

> "Brad" == Brad Knowles
> "Re: [Mailman-Users] spam, spamcop and mailman moderation"
>  Sat, 11 Nov 2006 19:56:36 -0600

Brad> At 11:17 AM -0500 11/11/06, John A. Martin wrote:
>> Perhaps amend Charles' suggestion to also provide a response
>> when a specified regular expression is found in the message
>> header.

Brad> On first blush, it's hard to see how this would be useful.

In the particular example given one could enforce a policy of
responding only to messages with SPF pass and thereby seen to be
unlikely to create backscatter to falsified envelope sender addresses.
Presumably there may be other header fields used by other schemes with
similar effects.

>> Please consider this amendment to Charles' suggestion without
>> arguing the merits of SPF here.  This is only one example of
>> using a header field to augment Charles' original suggestion.

Brad> Umm, yeah.  I think you know me well enough to know what my
Brad> views on SPF are, but on the other hand this does
Brad> demonstrate the utility of the feature you're asking for.

Brad> I wouldn't have used SPF as the example here, but I take
Brad> your point.

The SPF example was one I did not need to search for or to contrive
because I see many examples that comply with RFC4408 Section 7 and
thereby comply with the ordering requirements of RFC2821 Section 4.4
_et al_ making it relatively easy to determine whether it is
reasonable to act upon the data in a particular header field.  I
suspect you would agree that otherwise action should not be
recommended to be taken based upon the data contained in header
fields.

jam



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Re: [Mailman-Users] New Mailman Installation - Can't Send Email toaNew List (reformatted)

[Mark Sapiro]

McJathan wrote:
>
>Here are the entries from our mm_cfg.py file:
>
> from Defaults import
>
> POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS=['domain1.net', 'domain2.net']
> MTA='Postfix'
> add_virtualhost('mail.domain1.net', 'domain1.net')
> MAILMAN_SITE_LIST='mailman'*



Are the values for DEFAULT_URL_HOST and DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST from
Defaults.py those for the domain2.net domain? If not, you need to set
them in mm_cfg.py and clear the VIRTUAL_HOSTS dictionary of the entry
from Defaults.py and have add_virtualhost() lines for the default
domain and each additional domain. See, e.g., the beginning of
.

Also, it looks like 

 add_virtualhost('mail.domain1.net', 'domain1.net')

may be backwards - the web domain is first and the email domain is
second.

If you need to make changes to these in mm_cfg.py, you probably also
need to run fix_url as described later in FAQ 4.29 or in
.


The fact that you have nothing in virtual-mailman after running
bin/genaliases and/or creating lists indicates you have no lists whose
host_name attribute is in the POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS list.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Getting notified for subscription bounce

[Mark Sapiro]

Tsai Li Ming wrote:
>
>Lastly, can the list owner simply receives all bounces? If I remember 
>correctly, setting the bounce processing to No simply ignore all bounces?


Yes, setting bounce_processing to No ignores all bounces for the list.

You can forward all bounces to the list owner or anywhere else, by
changing the MTA aliases or whatever configuration definitions it uses
to deliver the -bounces address. You can't do it with Mailman settings.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] New Mailman Installation - Can't Send Email to aNew List (reformatted)

[McJathan]

Brad Knowles wrote:
> I've read through your entire message, and your questions seem to be 
> more related to how to get virtual domains working correctly in 
> postfix using MySQL, and don't seem to have much to do with using 
> Mailman in that context.
>
> Have you tried asking your questions on the postfix-users list?

Hi Brad,  The virtual domains in Postfix seem to be working just fine.
We don't have any problems at all both sending and receiving regular
email.  I set out all our Postscript configuration mainly as background. 
  Our problem is with Mailman.  We can setup a Mailman list, add
subscribers, but when we send a message to the list we encounter an
error.  Please review again my very first message in this thread...

Regards,  Jeff

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