Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Cyndi Norwitz writes:

 > This will not work in my situation for more than a certain percentage of my
 > non-member posts.  The details aren't important (to this list anyway).

Sure, but you're being nibbled to death by mice.  Everything that you
can offload onto other people is more time for you to spend on the
service you want to provide.  In my personal experience that "works"
in the sense that a number of people do go to the trouble to save me
time, and some even express gratitude for the chance to help.  YMMV,
of course.

 > False positive means it's legit mail that is in my spam folder.  Using my
 > ISP's defaults.

Well, those defaults are not well-tuned to your list.  (You obviously
know they're not working; my point is that there's a very good chance
that they can be tuned a *lot* better.)  Timing is up to you, but my
advice is to get in touch with your ISP early and often and see if
they'll give you some access to tuning SA (SpamAssassin) scores for
rules that give you a lot of false positives, and to training SA's
adaptive filters against a pile of your list mail.

BTW, I see that you have checked for SA headers in your list mail and
not found them.  If they're using something else, a lot of what has
been said about SA applies to most filter software to some degree.
And if they're not using anything, the sooner they start, the better
for everybody.

Regards,

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Cyndi Norwitz]

   From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
   Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 15:44:29 +0900

> If the spam problem is too great, I may have to disallow non-member posts
> except for people who write me asking to be put on an approved list.  I
> have several regular posters who are not subscribers by their own choice
> (their posts are generally newsletters).

   This kind of poster might best be served by having them subscribe and
   set their subscription to no-mail.  This also is a useful strategy for
   members with multiple addresses.

This will not work in my situation for more than a certain percentage of my
non-member posts.  The details aren't important (to this list anyway).

> No.  I said I don't want my unmoderated members to get their posts
> held due to having keywords that match spam.  Spam filters always
> have false positives.  In my experience, SA has a ton of false
> positives on my list posts.

   Please be more specific about "false positive".  If you mean according
   to the default setting of "5.0 is spam", you might still get rid of a
   *lot* of spam by raising that to 10.0 without false positives.

False positive means it's legit mail that is in my spam folder.  Using my
ISP's defaults.

> Yes, that is acceptable, if I can access them.  But I don't want spam to 
be
> left in my moderation box.

   How does your graymail work?  It sounded to me like it was just
   another moderation box.  Now you have two, as I understand it.  This
   may be a win for you, but I don't see why it would be offhand.

Graymail is a list of from addresses and subject headers of every email
there.  If it's all spam, I scan and ignore.  It goes away forever after 7
days (my setting).

Anything in moderation for MM must be clicked on.  One at a time.  3 clicks
per sender (which means per spam most of the time) if I want to set the
address to auto-discard and ban the spammer from joining the list, in
addition to simply discarding the email.

False positives are far easier to deal with in MM moderation than in
graymail, but my ISP is about to come out with a better version of graymail
that may reduce the workload.

Cyndi

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Cyndi Norwitz writes:

 >Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 21:34:45 -0800
 >From: Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 > 
 >How about rejecting or discarding non-member posts instead of holding
 >them. does that help?
 > 
 > If the spam problem is too great, I may have to disallow non-member posts
 > except for people who write me asking to be put on an approved list.  I
 > have several regular posters who are not subscribers by their own choice
 > (their posts are generally newsletters).

This kind of poster might best be served by having them subscribe and
set their subscription to no-mail.  This also is a useful strategy for
members with multiple addresses.

 > My preference is to allow non-member posts but moderate them
 > (except for the few I put an auto-allow on).

Auto-allow non-members are a good candidate for subscribe-and-no-mail.
It could work for the "other" non-members, depending on how they find
out about your list(s).  If people's posts are urgent (at least to
them), subscribe-and-no-mail is not a great strategy, of course.  My
lists are like that (bug reports on software), but I've found it to be
a tolerable compromise nevertheless.  Even people who very rarely post
are often happy to to have an easy way to get that "free pass" (as
long as it doesn't mean they get unwanted mail from my lists).

 > No.  I said I don't want my unmoderated members to get their posts held due
 > to having keywords that match spam.  Spam filters always have false
 > positives.  In my experience, SA has a ton of false positives on my list
 > posts.

Please be more specific about "false positive".  If you mean according
to the default setting of "5.0 is spam", you might still get rid of a
*lot* of spam by raising that to 10.0 without false positives.

 > Yes, that is acceptable, if I can access them.  But I don't want spam to be
 > left in my moderation box.

How does your graymail work?  It sounded to me like it was just
another moderation box.  Now you have two, as I understand it.  This
may be a win for you, but I don't see why it would be offhand.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Cyndi Norwitz]

   Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 22:19:50 -0800
   From: Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

   So if I understand, you want spam filtering to apply only to
   non-members who aren't in accept_these_nonmembers.

That would be my preference.  But I would accept any form of spam filtering
and then simply work with it to reduce my workload as much as possible.

   You aren't going to be able to do that unless sonic installs the
   SpamAssassin patch referred to earlier in this thread or something
   similar.

   What that patch allows is setting a SpamAssassin 'hold' score and a
   SpamAssassin 'discard' score and a member bonus for being a member or
   in accept_these_nonmembers. If you set the member bonus high enough,
   no member post would ever be held or discarded.

This would work.

   The problem with that is those settings are global, not per-list. The
   patch could always be modified to make the settings per-list, but that
   makes it less likely you'd ever see it installed.

Nodding.  There are pros and cons to not running your own server.  

As for whether or not I actually see false positives...yes, I got several a
week from my list posts alone.  On lists that totalled a couple hundred
legit posts a week.  The spam filter would catch them not just for medical
words but for being from the wrong ISP or setting up their email program
not quite right, using the wrong phrase, and so forth.

Cyndi

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Cyndi Norwitz writes:

 > But this isn't useful to me.  Oh, I'm sure some of the really bad spam
 > would go away, but this is a health list and so there are *a lot* of false
 > positives because we mention a lot of spam-like keywords.  So I'd have to
 > set the spam level pretty high.

Heh.  You're asking a lot of the current technology; if I were you,
I'd take up a collection and hire a consultant.  That said ...

Are you sure you get a lot of false positives?  Spam filtering is more
than just looking for "Viagra" or "Tylenol".  You really ought to look
at a sample of say 100 posts or maybe 1000, and see just how bad it
gets.  You might be pleasantly surprised at how few posts fall into
the only-a-human-can-tell range.

It's also possible to tune SpamAssassin by deemphasizing rules that
give false positives, as well as by using the sa-learn tool to train
its adaptive filters.  (If that's not your cup of tea, take up a
collection and hire a consultant.)

There are alternatives such as SpamBayes which may be easier to
integrate.

 > members will be off moderation.  Their posts will go through in what
 > amounts to a whitelist.  The rest will be moderated.

I assume your list archives are non-public?  Otherwise whitelisting is
dangerous (I've gotten spam claiming to be from Barry Warsaw, for
example).

 > The spam sent to the posting address will be in my moderation window.
 > Mixed with the legit posts.  That is the problem.  Saying "this is spam so
 > I'm sending it to you for moderation" is not helpful.  The stuff is already
 > in moderation.  

Yes, we understand that.  What I'm saying that saying "this is
definitely spam so it goes in the trash" *is* helpful, and I get a
heck of a lot of spam that doesn't anything to do with health: stock
scams, counterfeit watches, and pirated software, for example.  If you
can get rid of all of that, wouldn't it be a big win?

 > Here's what I want:
 > 
 > Subscribers who are unmoderated to be whitelisted.
 > Non-subscribers who I have set to auto-accept to be whitelisted.
 > Potential spam from the moderated box to be sent to my graymail

Reasonable.

 > So, yes, I do want the spam filter to run through Mailman.

Well, maybe you do.  Then again, maybe life would be better if you
handled all whitelisting and spam moderation through SpamAssassin.
SpamAssassin *can* do all of the above without being integrated into
Mailman.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Mark Sapiro]

Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
>
>I agree.  There is no easy way I see of doing what I want.  I guess I need
>to see what all the options are and play with it for a while and see what
>my ISP does.


So if I understand, you want spam filtering to apply only to
non-members who aren't in accept_these_nonmembers.

You aren't going to be able to do that unless sonic installs the
SpamAssassin patch referred to earlier in this thread or something
similar.

What that patch allows is setting a SpamAssassin 'hold' score and a
SpamAssassin 'discard' score and a member bonus for being a member or
in accept_these_nonmembers. If you set the member bonus high enough,
no member post would ever be held or discarded.

The problem with that is those settings are global, not per-list. The
patch could always be modified to make the settings per-list, but that
makes it less likely you'd ever see it installed.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Spyro Polymiadis]

Ive got it working with spamassassin just fine,

It gets spam checked as soon as its received by postfix, then it passes on to 
the mailman software - where non dropped spam gets checked again

I just have X-Spam-Flag: YES = discard (or hold for moderation in some more 
important lists) in my spam settings and for it not to accept mail from non 
list members (unless it's a public list) - ontop of that postfix does rbl 
checks etc and drops most spam now before it even hits spamassassin for 
checking..

Its worked a treat thus far..

Cheers
Spyro

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:mailman-users-
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cyndi
> Norwitz
> Sent: Monday, 10 December 2007 4:19 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; mailman-users@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
>
>Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 21:21:01 -0800
>From: Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
>>There is nothing called spam filters in privacy options.
>
>In the admin interface, there should be four sub-pages under Privacy
>options...
>
> Yeah, duh, somehow I missed that :)
>
>Does list mail (received posts) have any SpamAssassin headers, e.g.
>X-Spam-Status:, X-Spam-Flag:, X-Spam-Level:.
>
> Not taht I can see.  Here's a sample header from a spam attempted post:
>
> Received: from b.mx.sonic.net (b.mx.sonic.net [209.204.159.4])
>   by listman.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP
> id
>   lB56QfhY031208
>   for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Tue, 4 Dec 2007
> 22:26:41
>   -0800
> Received: from fedmail.FEDMAIL (70.43.123.148.nw.nuvox.net
> [70.43.123.148])
>   by b.mx.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id
>   lB56Qchx002626
>   for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:26:41 -0800
> Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Received: from fedmail (70.43.123.67.nw.nuvox.net [70.43.123.67]) by
>   fedmail.FEDMAIL with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail
>   Service Version 5.5.2653.13)
>   id YFVARF1L; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 01:10:37 -0500
> Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:10:36 -0500
> From: Prime Vendor<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Hello JAMES FELDMAN
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> X-Sonic-SB-IP-RBLs: IP RBLs .
>
>
> Thanks,
> Cyndi
>
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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Cyndi Norwitz]

   Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 21:34:45 -0800
   From: Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

   How about rejecting or discarding non-member posts instead of holding
   them. does that help?

If the spam problem is too great, I may have to disallow non-member posts
except for people who write me asking to be put on an approved list.  I
have several regular posters who are not subscribers by their own choice
(their posts are generally newsletters).  My preference is to allow
non-member posts but moderate them (except for the few I put an auto-allow
on). 

   >I also don't want any member's mail that is not moderated to be marked
   >spam and held for moderation.  Given the nature of the list, this could
   >easily be 5-10% of all legit posts.

   So you are basically saying that you don't trust any spam filter other
   than a human, so all this discussion is moot.

No.  I said I don't want my unmoderated members to get their posts held due
to having keywords that match spam.  Spam filters always have false
positives.  In my experience, SA has a ton of false positives on my list
posts.  Spam filters are very useful but I don't want to rely on them
100%. 

   >Here's what I want:
   >
   >Subscribers who are unmoderated to be whitelisted.
   >Non-subscribers who I have set to auto-accept to be whitelisted.

   You already have these.

If the spam filter works on the mail server, then it will screen all the
posts, not just the ones held for moderation.

   >Potential spam from the moderated box to be sent to my graymail (my ISP's
   >  name (or maybe a common name, I don't know) for suspected spam--they send
   >  an email each night with the from and subject headers).

   Mailman sends a summary every morning with the From: and Subject: of
   the held posts waiting moderator action.

Yes, that is acceptable, if I can access them.  But I don't want spam to be
left in my moderation box.

   Here you have a problem because detecting a flagged post based on
   header_filter_rules is not sensitive to whether or not the poster is
   "whitelisted" (you could make rules for this, but it would be too
   cumbersome; you'd basically need to list everyone's address in a rule).

I agree.  There is no easy way I see of doing what I want.  I guess I need
to see what all the options are and play with it for a while and see what
my ISP does.

Thanks,
Cyndi

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Mark Sapiro]

Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
>
>   Does list mail (received posts) have any SpamAssassin headers, e.g.
>   X-Spam-Status:, X-Spam-Flag:, X-Spam-Level:.
>
>Not taht I can see.  Here's a sample header from a spam attempted post:
>
>Received: from b.mx.sonic.net (b.mx.sonic.net [209.204.159.4])
> by listman.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id
> lB56QfhY031208
> for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:26:41
> -0800
>Received: from fedmail.FEDMAIL (70.43.123.148.nw.nuvox.net [70.43.123.148])
> by b.mx.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id
> lB56Qchx002626
> for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:26:41 -0800
>Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Received: from fedmail (70.43.123.67.nw.nuvox.net [70.43.123.67]) by
> fedmail.FEDMAIL with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail
> Service Version 5.5.2653.13)
> id YFVARF1L; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 01:10:37 -0500
>Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:10:36 -0500
>From: Prime Vendor<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Hello JAMES FELDMAN
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>X-Sonic-SB-IP-RBLs: IP RBLs .


Well, that last one seems to say that something at sonic thinks the
sending IP is in a blacklist, or maybe that blacklists were checked
and the IP wasn't found.

You'd probably have to ask sonic what the possible headers are and what
they mean.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Cyndi Norwitz]

   Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 21:21:01 -0800
   From: Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

   Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
   >There is nothing called spam filters in privacy options.

   In the admin interface, there should be four sub-pages under Privacy
   options...

Yeah, duh, somehow I missed that :)

   Does list mail (received posts) have any SpamAssassin headers, e.g.
   X-Spam-Status:, X-Spam-Flag:, X-Spam-Level:.

Not taht I can see.  Here's a sample header from a spam attempted post:

Received: from b.mx.sonic.net (b.mx.sonic.net [209.204.159.4])
  by listman.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id
  lB56QfhY031208
  for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:26:41
  -0800
Received: from fedmail.FEDMAIL (70.43.123.148.nw.nuvox.net [70.43.123.148])
  by b.mx.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id
  lB56Qchx002626
  for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:26:41 -0800
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Received: from fedmail (70.43.123.67.nw.nuvox.net [70.43.123.67]) by
  fedmail.FEDMAIL with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail
  Service Version 5.5.2653.13)
  id YFVARF1L; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 01:10:37 -0500
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:10:36 -0500
From: Prime Vendor<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Hello JAMES FELDMAN
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
X-Sonic-SB-IP-RBLs: IP RBLs .


Thanks,
Cyndi

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Mark Sapiro]

Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
>
>The spam sent to the posting address will be in my moderation window.
>Mixed with the legit posts.  That is the problem.  Saying "this is spam so
>I'm sending it to you for moderation" is not helpful.  The stuff is already
>in moderation.  


How about rejecting or discarding non-member posts instead of holding
them. does that help? Note that there are problems with rejecting spam
although Mailman has limits on the number of autoresponses per day to
a given user to prevent joe-jobbing. There are also problems with
discarding non-member posts if you ever expect to get legitimate
messages from non-members, but these are options to consider
(generic_nonmember_action = reject or discard).


>I also don't want any member's mail that is not moderated to be marked spam
>and held for moderation.  Given the nature of the list, this could easily
>be 5-10% of all legit posts.


So you are basically saying that you don't trust any spam filter other
than a human, so all this discussion is moot.


>I do want the administriva filter on, but
>that's already working okay.
>
>Here's what I want:
>
>Subscribers who are unmoderated to be whitelisted.
>Non-subscribers who I have set to auto-accept to be whitelisted.


You already have these.


>Potential spam from the moderated box to be sent to my graymail (my ISP's
>  name (or maybe a common name, I don't know) for suspected spam--they send
>  an email each night with the from and subject headers).


Mailman sends a summary every morning with the From: and Subject: of
the held posts waiting moderator action.


>So, yes, I do want the spam filter to run through Mailman.  But I will
>accept a spam filter from an earlier server if I can whitelist easily,
>though it won't be very helpful to me.


Here you have a problem because detecting a flagged post based on
header_filter_rules is not sensitive to whether or not the poster is
"whitelisted" (you could make rules for this, but it would be too
cumbersome; you'd basically need to list everyone's address in a rule).

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Mark Sapiro]

Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
>
>   Yes.  Set up your spam filters under "Privacy options..." then "Spam 
> filters".
>
>There is nothing called spam filters in privacy options.


In the admin interface, there should be four sub-pages under Privacy
options...

* Subscription rules
* Sender filters
* Recipient filters
* Spam filters 

If they aren't all there, then this is something sonic.net has done to
their installation.


>My guess is they are different servers, though the posts may pass through
>the email server at some point.  List mail goes to lists.sonic.net, email
>to sonic.net.


Does list mail (received posts) have any SpamAssassin headers, e.g.
X-Spam-Status:, X-Spam-Flag:, X-Spam-Level:.

If so, you can filter on those with header_filter_rules which is under
Spam filters if you have it, but see my reply (to come) to your
subsequent post.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Cyndi Norwitz]

   From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
   Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 08:24:32 +0900

   Almost.  If you worry about false positives, you can ask them to make
   sure that the "spam level header" which gives a "spamminess rating"
   according to the number of stars (eg, X-Spam-Level: ** is a 10)
   is enabled.  Then you can add a discard filter for "^X-Spam-Level:
   \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*" to your Mailman configuration which nukes all
   posts with level 10 spamminess or more, and a hold filter to
   "^X-Spam-Level: \*\*\*\*\*" which holds posts with level 5 or more for
   moderation.  Tune the number of stars to fit your experience.

But this isn't useful to me.  Oh, I'm sure some of the really bad spam
would go away, but this is a health list and so there are *a lot* of false
positives because we mention a lot of spam-like keywords.  So I'd have to
set the spam level pretty high.

A couple of months post-migration, I expect that the majority of my list
members will be off moderation.  Their posts will go through in what
amounts to a whitelist.  The rest will be moderated.

The spam sent to the posting address will be in my moderation window.
Mixed with the legit posts.  That is the problem.  Saying "this is spam so
I'm sending it to you for moderation" is not helpful.  The stuff is already
in moderation.  

I also don't want any member's mail that is not moderated to be marked spam
and held for moderation.  Given the nature of the list, this could easily
be 5-10% of all legit posts.  I do want the administriva filter on, but
that's already working okay.

Here's what I want:

Subscribers who are unmoderated to be whitelisted.
Non-subscribers who I have set to auto-accept to be whitelisted.
Potential spam from the moderated box to be sent to my graymail (my ISP's
  name (or maybe a common name, I don't know) for suspected spam--they send
  an email each night with the from and subject headers).

So, yes, I do want the spam filter to run through Mailman.  But I will
accept a spam filter from an earlier server if I can whitelist easily,
though it won't be very helpful to me.

Cyndi

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Cyndi Norwitz]

   Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 14:11:00 -0600
   From: Brad Knowles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

   >  No, that they haven't taken the steps to integrate it with MM yet and have
   >  no immediate plans to do so.

   They don't need to.  So long as they're running SpamAssassin on their
   machines and using the standard SpamAssassin tagging feature, you can
   take advantage of that.  You don't need any further help from them on
   that subject.

That would rock.

   >  Is there a way *I* can without the ISP doing anything?

   Yes.  Set up your spam filters under "Privacy options..." then "Spam 
filters".

There is nothing called spam filters in privacy options.

I also checked content filtering and there is nothing relevant.

   So long as the e-mail for your mailing lists are passing through the
   same servers, then it doesn't matter.  At that point, e-mail is e-mail
   and it doesn't really matter who the sender is or who the recipient(s)
   is/are.

My guess is they are different servers, though the posts may pass through
the email server at some point.  List mail goes to lists.sonic.net, email
to sonic.net.

Cyndi

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Re: [Mailman-Users] From and Reply-To

[Mark Sapiro]

Mikael Hansen wrote:

>I have noticed if [EMAIL PROTECTED] is not a member of a list and [EMAIL 
>PROTECTED] is, then  
>posting using From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] along with Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>works?


See the default setting for SENDER_HEADERS and the comments preceding
it in Defaults.py. If you want to change it, change it in mm_cfg.py
and restart mailman.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Restoring lists on newer version

[Mark Sapiro]

Ivan Van Laningham wrote:
>
>QMAIL QUESTION, not Mailman:
>Now my big problem is that my qmail is configured with default, very 
>conservative, settings.  When I initially set the server up back in 
>March, I ran across a page on the net showing how to increase the limits 
>and queue sizes (?) to speed up qmail.  I failed to write that site 
>down, and naturally can't find it again.
>
>If anyone can help either track the site down, or fill me in on the 
>settings, to improve performance, I would greatly appreciate it.  I 
>apologize for the off-topic nature of the problem, but this list has 
>always been of the greatest help, and if there are any others out there 
>running Mailman on Plesk, the answers might help them too.


If you haven't seen
,
then look at that.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Brad Knowles writes:

 > On 12/9/07, Cyndi Norwitz wrote:
 > 
 > >>I thought you earlier wrote that SpamAssassin *is* being run by the 
 > >> ISP,
 > >
 > >  Correct.
 > >
 > >>but "can't be used" with Mailman.
 > >
 > >  No, that they haven't taken the steps to integrate it with MM yet and have
 > >  no immediate plans to do so.
 > 
 > They don't need to.

And don't want to (I'm surprised Brad didn't reemphasize this).  If
they are running SpamAssassin, you want them to run it in such a way
that your MTA can refuse to accept the mail at all.  This has the
advantages that (1) you (and your Mailman) never see it, which (2)
saves your ISP the cost of running Mailman, and (3) in case of a
"false positive", a real user will see that their mail was bounced and
complain to you, and have some useful information for diagnosing why.

It's (2) and to some extent (3) that makes this method significantly
better than filtering on SpamAssassin headers at the Mailman stage.

 > So long as they're running SpamAssassin on their 
 > machines and using the standard SpamAssassin tagging feature, you can 
 > take advantage of that.  You don't need any further help from them on 
 > that subject.

Almost.  If you worry about false positives, you can ask them to make
sure that the "spam level header" which gives a "spamminess rating"
according to the number of stars (eg, X-Spam-Level: ** is a
10) is enabled.  Then you can add a discard filter for
"^X-Spam-Level: \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*" to your Mailman configuration
which nukes all posts with level 10 spamminess or more, and a hold
filter to "^X-Spam-Level: \*\*\*\*\*" which holds posts with level 5
or more for moderation.  Tune the number of stars to fit your
experience.

This header is on by default, and you can easily check the headers of
list mail to see if it's there.

 > 
 > >>If SpamAssassin is installed, I don't understand why you can't use it
 > >>with Mailman.
 > >
 > >  Is there a way *I* can without the ISP doing anything?
 > 
 > Yes.  Set up your spam filters under "Privacy options..." then "Spam 
 > filters".
 > 
 > >>Lack of spam filtering is not just another feature that might not be
 > >>provided in today's mail environment; it's a complete loss of service
 > >>waiting to happen.  IMHO YMMV etc, but I strongly advise you be
 > >>proactive on this.
 > >
 > >  I'm working on it.  They do have SA for email.
 > 
 > So long as the e-mail for your mailing lists are passing through the 
 > same servers, then it doesn't matter.  At that point, e-mail is 
 > e-mail and it doesn't really matter who the sender is or who the 
 > recipient(s) is/are.
 > 
 > -- 
 > Brad Knowles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 > LinkedIn Profile: 
 > --
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 > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
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 > Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
 > Unsubscribe: 
 > http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/stephen%40xemacs.org
 > 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman never replies to e-mail

[Sjors Gielen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Sjors Gielen wrote:
>> I've just tried sending myself an e-mail again, and it is delivered to
>> Mailman, but I now don't even see an error message appear in the
>> errorlog, it doesn't even *try* to send a reply.
>> Also, I have Postgrey installed with Postfix, so that might be why the
>> message couldn't be sent. However, since Postfix then sends a 4xx reply,
>> shouldn't Mailman retry sending after ten minutes or so?
> 
> 
> Yes. If Mailman receives the 4xx status during SMTP, it will retry, but
> Postgrey shouldn't be greylisting mail from localhost anyway.
> 
> Is the message held in Mailman? Check the admindb interface for the
> list.
> 
> Also, check all Mailman's logs.
> 
> See
> 
> 
> BTW, your OP indicated that Postfix was delivering via mailman service.
> Are you using postfix-to-mailman2.1.py? Are you sure it's delivering
> to Mailman?
> 

No messages are held in Mailman, at least, I can't see any through
admindb. It seems like Mailman does send mail now, but it's being
blocked by the ISP because it's not able to verify
[EMAIL PROTECTED] due to Postgrey - I added the ISP's
SMTP servers to the whitelist, and now I'll just need to wait for the
ISP to delete its cache. I'll let you know when something happens (No
news is good news).
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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Brad Knowles]

On 12/9/07, Cyndi Norwitz wrote:

>>I thought you earlier wrote that SpamAssassin *is* being run by the ISP,
>
>  Correct.
>
>>but "can't be used" with Mailman.
>
>  No, that they haven't taken the steps to integrate it with MM yet and have
>  no immediate plans to do so.

They don't need to.  So long as they're running SpamAssassin on their 
machines and using the standard SpamAssassin tagging feature, you can 
take advantage of that.  You don't need any further help from them on 
that subject.

>>If SpamAssassin is installed, I don't understand why you can't use it
>>with Mailman.
>
>  Is there a way *I* can without the ISP doing anything?

Yes.  Set up your spam filters under "Privacy options..." then "Spam filters".

>>Lack of spam filtering is not just another feature that might not be
>>provided in today's mail environment; it's a complete loss of service
>>waiting to happen.  IMHO YMMV etc, but I strongly advise you be
>>proactive on this.
>
>  I'm working on it.  They do have SA for email.

So long as the e-mail for your mailing lists are passing through the 
same servers, then it doesn't matter.  At that point, e-mail is 
e-mail and it doesn't really matter who the sender is or who the 
recipient(s) is/are.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Cyndi Norwitz]

   From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
   Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2007 17:57:57 +0900

   I thought you earlier wrote that SpamAssassin *is* being run by the ISP,

Correct.

   but "can't be used" with Mailman. 

No, that they haven't taken the steps to integrate it with MM yet and have
no immediate plans to do so.  

   If SpamAssassin is installed, I don't understand why you can't use it
   with Mailman.

Is there a way *I* can without the ISP doing anything?

   Lack of spam filtering is not just another feature that might not be
   provided in today's mail environment; it's a complete loss of service
   waiting to happen.  IMHO YMMV etc, but I strongly advise you be
   proactive on this.

I'm working on it.  They do have SA for email.

This is a great small local ISP.  They are very responsive to problems and
go out of their way for their customers.  I suspect no one has asked them
yet for this feature.  I expect they'll deal with it soon.

Thanks,
Cyndi

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman never replies to e-mail

[Mark Sapiro]

Sjors Gielen wrote:
>
>I've just tried sending myself an e-mail again, and it is delivered to
>Mailman, but I now don't even see an error message appear in the
>errorlog, it doesn't even *try* to send a reply.
>Also, I have Postgrey installed with Postfix, so that might be why the
>message couldn't be sent. However, since Postfix then sends a 4xx reply,
>shouldn't Mailman retry sending after ten minutes or so?


Yes. If Mailman receives the 4xx status during SMTP, it will retry, but
Postgrey shouldn't be greylisting mail from localhost anyway.

Is the message held in Mailman? Check the admindb interface for the
list.

Also, check all Mailman's logs.

See


BTW, your OP indicated that Postfix was delivering via mailman service.
Are you using postfix-to-mailman2.1.py? Are you sure it's delivering
to Mailman?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman never replies to e-mail

[Sjors Gielen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Sjors Gielen wrote:
>> However, I never see it send a reply, at least not through postfix:
>>
>> Dec 09 14:02:52 2007 (13531) Low level smtp error: (104, 'Connection
>> reset by peer'), msgid:
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Dec 09 14:02:52 2007 (13531) delivery to [EMAIL PROTECTED] failed with
>> code -1: (104, 'Connection reset by peer')
>>
>> (the e-mail address here is the list administrator, which has to allow
>> the subscription before the confirmation, as set up in configuration).
> 
> 
> And the above (from Mailman's smtp-failure log) says mailman is trying
> to send the held message notice to the owner, and there is a problem
> during SMTP (with localhost port 25 assuming you haven't changed
> SMTPHOST or SMTPPORT).
> 
> See
> .
> 

I've just tried sending myself an e-mail again, and it is delivered to
Mailman, but I now don't even see an error message appear in the
errorlog, it doesn't even *try* to send a reply.
Also, I have Postgrey installed with Postfix, so that might be why the
message couldn't be sent. However, since Postfix then sends a 4xx reply,
shouldn't Mailman retry sending after ten minutes or so?

Sjors
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Re: [Mailman-Users] error when I run service mailman restart

[Mark Sapiro]

Vinita Aggarwal wrote:
>
>When I run command-> service mailman restart, it gives following error.
>Please help in sorting this error
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]# service mailman restart
>/etc/init.d/mailman: line 90:  1911 Segmentation fault  rm -f
>/var/lock/subsys/$prog
>/etc/init.d/mailman: line 59:  1913 Segmentation fault  cat
>>$DST_CRON_SCRIPT  <# DO NOT EDIT THIS FILE!
>#
># Contents of this file managed by /etc/init.d/mailman
># Master copy is /usr/lib/mailman/cron/crontab.in
># Consult that file for documentation
>EOF
>
>
>/etc/init.d/mailman: line 76:  1926 Segmentation fault  touch
>/var/lock/subsys/$prog


I tried to tell you a couple of days ago

that you should start new topics by composing a new message to
mailman-users@python.org, not by replying to an unrelated post. I
suggest you go to
 and
look for your posts if you don't understand what I'm saying.

As far as the above error is concerned, and the related 'service httpd'
error in your other post is concerned, these are not things that this
list can help you with. These errors occur in the running of shell
scripts installed with the respective rpm packages. These are scripts
in /etc/init.d (or /etc/rc.d/init.d) named mailman, httpd, etc.

The problem above seems to occur before the script even tries to issue
a mailmanctl command.

If you can't figure out what the problem with this is, you can always
run "~mailman/bin/mailmanctl restart" directly.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman never replies to e-mail

[Mark Sapiro]

Sjors Gielen wrote:
>
>However, I never see it send a reply, at least not through postfix:
>
>Dec 09 14:02:52 2007 (13531) Low level smtp error: (104, 'Connection
>reset by peer'), msgid:
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Dec 09 14:02:52 2007 (13531) delivery to [EMAIL PROTECTED] failed with
>code -1: (104, 'Connection reset by peer')
>
>(the e-mail address here is the list administrator, which has to allow
>the subscription before the confirmation, as set up in configuration).


And the above (from Mailman's smtp-failure log) says mailman is trying
to send the held message notice to the owner, and there is a problem
during SMTP (with localhost port 25 assuming you haven't changed
SMTPHOST or SMTPPORT).

See
.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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[Mailman-Users] Mailman never replies to e-mail

[Sjors Gielen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

After a while of messing with it all, I got Mailman pretty much set up
correctly. I'm using a self-compiled Mailman along with Debians'
postfix. I needed to compile Mailman myself because the Debian version
had 'www-user' compiled-in as the web user, and my setup uses SuEXEC and
SuPHP to get different users and groups for every user. I've got the web
part set up, for the greatest part, now.
Also, when I send an e-mail from my Gmail account for, say,
mailman-subscribe at lists.dazjorz.com, the e-mail does arrive at Mailman:

Dec  9 15:08:24 server postfix/qmgr[20369]: 5F9BB4E005E:
from=<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, size=1149, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
Dec  9 15:08:25 server postfix/pipe[25456]: 5F9BB4E005E:
to=<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, relay=mailman, delay=0.86,
delays=0.22/0.04/0/0.6, dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered via mailman
service)

However, I never see it send a reply, at least not through postfix:

Dec 09 14:02:52 2007 (13531) Low level smtp error: (104, 'Connection
reset by peer'), msgid:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Dec 09 14:02:52 2007 (13531) delivery to [EMAIL PROTECTED] failed with
code -1: (104, 'Connection reset by peer')

(the e-mail address here is the list administrator, which has to allow
the subscription before the confirmation, as set up in configuration).

I don't know if the complete setup is correct. This is the interesting
part of my mm_cfg.py:
MAILMAN_SITE_LIST='mailman';
DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN='http://%s/mailman/'
PRIVATE_ARCHIVE_URL='/mailman/private'
MTA=None
IMAGE_LOGOS='/mmimages/'
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST='lists.dazjorz.com'
DEFAULT_URL_HOST='lists.dazjorz.com'
add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST);
DEB_LISTMASTER='[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHXBDQqfvodGPEGSERAijBAJsEdl6bznxxXS5RMJ8hv79UUkuJzQCaA7BW
hVLh4DQZ4iMIPG02P/qkBrs=
=Z9xG
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: [Mailman-Users] error when i run service httpd restart

[Vinita Aggarwal]

Hi,

When I restart httpd , it gives following error. Please help in solving this
error.

 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]# service httpd restart

Stopping httpd: /etc/rc.d/init.d/functions: line 156:  1099 Segmentation
fault  usleep 10

/etc/rc.d/init.d/functions: line 156:  1101 Segmentation fault  sleep 1

/etc/rc.d/init.d/functions: line 156:  1105 Segmentation fault  rm -f
/var/run/$base.pid

 

Starting httpd: /etc/init.d/httpd: line 40:  1107 Segmentation fault
LANG=C grep -Eiq "^[[:space:]]*($GONE)" $CONFFILE

 

/etc/init.d/httpd: line 59:  1109 Segmentation fault  touch ${lockfile}
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Stephen J. Turnbull
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2007 2:28 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: mailman-users@python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

Cyndi Norwitz writes:

 >Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 08:49:30 -0800
 >From: Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 > 
 >SpamAssassin is much better integrated in the MTA ahead of Mailman,
but
 >if they want to integrate SpamAssassin with Mailman at some point,
 >refer them to
 >

 >and
 >
.
 > 
 > Many thanks.  I have passed this along to my ISP.

I thought you earlier wrote that SpamAssassin *is* being run by the
ISP, but "can't be used" with Mailman.  If SpamAssassin is installed,
I don't understand why you can't use it with Mailman.

Lack of spam filtering is not just another feature that might not be
provided in today's mail environment; it's a complete loss of service
waiting to happen.  IMHO YMMV etc, but I strongly advise you be
proactive on this.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] error when I run service mailman restart

[Vinita Aggarwal]

Hi

When I run command-> service mailman restart, it gives following error.
Please help in sorting this error

[EMAIL PROTECTED] ~]# service mailman restart
/etc/init.d/mailman: line 90:  1911 Segmentation fault  rm -f
/var/lock/subsys/$prog
/etc/init.d/mailman: line 59:  1913 Segmentation fault  cat
>$DST_CRON_SCRIPT  Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 08:49:30 -0800
 >From: Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 > 
 >SpamAssassin is much better integrated in the MTA ahead of Mailman,
but
 >if they want to integrate SpamAssassin with Mailman at some point,
 >refer them to
 >

 >and
 >
.
 > 
 > Many thanks.  I have passed this along to my ISP.

I thought you earlier wrote that SpamAssassin *is* being run by the
ISP, but "can't be used" with Mailman.  If SpamAssassin is installed,
I don't understand why you can't use it with Mailman.

Lack of spam filtering is not just another feature that might not be
provided in today's mail environment; it's a complete loss of service
waiting to happen.  IMHO YMMV etc, but I strongly advise you be
proactive on this.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Cyndi Norwitz writes:

 >Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 08:49:30 -0800
 >From: Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 > 
 >SpamAssassin is much better integrated in the MTA ahead of Mailman, but
 >if they want to integrate SpamAssassin with Mailman at some point,
 >refer them to
 >
 > 
 >and
 >
 > .
 > 
 > Many thanks.  I have passed this along to my ISP.

I thought you earlier wrote that SpamAssassin *is* being run by the
ISP, but "can't be used" with Mailman.  If SpamAssassin is installed,
I don't understand why you can't use it with Mailman.

Lack of spam filtering is not just another feature that might not be
provided in today's mail environment; it's a complete loss of service
waiting to happen.  IMHO YMMV etc, but I strongly advise you be
proactive on this.

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