Re: [Mailman-Users] NNTP server for "local" newsgroups ?

[Adam McGreggor]

On Thu, Dec 24, 2009 at 09:10:28AM +1100, John Fitzsimons wrote:
> No idea why someone wanting a mailing list manager would NOT like to
> have additional functionality. If it were an option.

Function-creep/bloatware, things getting too big for their own boots?

I like small things. If I want extra packages/software, I install
them. I don't want them to be bundled in. Especially not
automatically.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] NNTP server for "local" newsgroups ?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Dec 23, 2009, at 02:57 PM, Grant Taylor wrote:

>Making the leap to requiring the use of a Mailman 
>rolled NNTP server is (IMHO) extremely arrogant.  Offering an optional 
>program that has been "tested to work with" (tm) is something completely 
>different and acceptable.

No, Mailman will not /require/ the use of its NNTP server, just like today it
does not require the use of Pipermail.  It'll be available for anybody who
wants an easy, turnkey solution, which actually is probably the majority of
users.  But if you don't want it, or want to roll you're own, you will of
course be welcome to.

-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] NNTP server for "local" newsgroups ?

[John Fitzsimons]

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:57:49 -0600, Grant Taylor wrote:
 
>On 12/22/09 22:24, John Fitzsimons wrote:

>> Okay, IF an NNTP setup were part of Mailman then that would IMO 
>> encourage a huge number of hosters, that currently install Mailman, 
>> to consider opening that port. Particularly as you could put in the 
>> installation documents that the Mailman NNTP facility requires it.

>I'm sure that hosts would consider running an NNTP server for a few 
>moments before considering the ramifications (to Mailman) of not doing 
>so before ultimately considering a different mailing list manager.

No idea why someone wanting a mailing list manager would NOT like to
have additional functionality. If it were an option.

I was, of course, assuming that during Mailman's installation a
question would be asked such as "Do you wish to enable an NNTP 
server for use with Mailman ? Y/N ?"

>I think Mailman (as a mailing list manager) should remain separate from 
>a NNTP daemon. 

If people had an option during installation then they could decide
that question for themselves.

>Having Mailman take advantage of an NNTP server that 
>exists is wonderful.  Making the leap to requiring the use of a Mailman 
>rolled NNTP server is (IMHO) extremely arrogant.  

I wasn't recommending that. I was suggesting that if people chose,
during installation, to add an NNTP capability then they would be
reminded that they need to open the relevant port to get everything
working properly.

>Offering an optional 
>program that has been "tested to work with" (tm) is something completely 
>different and acceptable.

>Further, you have some sites that are running Mailman on a server that 
>is already running a different NNTP server.  Are you going to tell these 
>sites that they have to switch from their current NNTP server to the one 
>that ships with Mailman?  What if they refuse to switch?  Does that mean 
>that they have chosen to abandon Mailman and go with another product?

No, as these people wouldn't choose the added NNTP functionality while
installing Mailman.

>Requiring a Mailman included NNTP server is a *VERY* big and (IMHO) bad 
>thing to do.

I wasn't suggesting that. The NNTP part would be optional.

>At most, I think there should be an optional component that is tested 
>and supported.  Any thing beyond that should be what we currently have, 
>best effort support to work with an alternative part NNTP server.

>> You would be doing a gigantic service to newsgroup fans around the 
>> world. I sure hope you can manage this venture.

>Is adding multiple additional news servers (that only carry groups for 
>the mailing lists hosted on the server) really such a good service?  

Well, as Gmane has 11,972 mailing list ported to NNTP I guess quite a
lot of people would say "yes". IMO the only reason more people don't
use Gmane is because they haven't heard of it and/or don't understand
how it works.

That certainly applies to me. Had I known about Gmane, and how it
works, in 2002 then I would have considered using their service then.
IF Mailman had a similar thing as an "option" then IMO many would jump
at the opportunity to have this added functionality.

>Or 
>would it be better to (do what we currently do) gateway from Mailman and 
>an existing NNTP server.

No it wouldn't. A very high percentage of "hosted" sites install
Mailman. IF an NNTP "optional" component existed then more sites would
offer their clients that option. 

At the moment the number of "hosted" sites that offer an NNTP option
is pretty close to 0%. Almost all the very very few sites that offer
NNTP do so as a newsgroup provider only. It isn't part of the "hosting
package" that many companies offer. 

>> Well, if you pull this off, then IMO Mailman will blow competing 
>> products out of the water. Both freeware and payware.   :-)

>There are already packages that provide web form / mailing list / 
>newsgroup / news server integration all in one.  Synchronet comes to mind.

Almost all of which need root access and/or Linux skills. Not much use
to people who don't have root access, or Linux skills.

With Synchronet for example ..

"Step-by-step Instructions
=

Note: These instructions assume you are already logged in as 'root'.

Q. Where do I get Synchronet for Unix?

A. There are no binary distributions at this time, so you must get the
source code from"


Not everyone is a "Unix geek". Some of us simply want to be able to
send/receive email and newsgroup posts. Preferably as a synchronised
setup.

This sort of thing is absurdly simple in windows. It is amazingly
difficult in Linux.


Regards, John.
 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] NNTP server for "local" newsgroups ?

[Grant Taylor]

On 12/22/09 22:24, John Fitzsimons wrote:
Okay, IF an NNTP setup were part of Mailman then that would IMO 
encourage a huge number of hosters, that currently install Mailman, 
to consider opening that port. Particularly as you could put in the 
installation documents that the Mailman NNTP facility requires it.


I'm sure that hosts would consider running an NNTP server for a few 
moments before considering the ramifications (to Mailman) of not doing 
so before ultimately considering a different mailing list manager.


I think Mailman (as a mailing list manager) should remain separate from 
a NNTP daemon.  Having Mailman take advantage of an NNTP server that 
exists is wonderful.  Making the leap to requiring the use of a Mailman 
rolled NNTP server is (IMHO) extremely arrogant.  Offering an optional 
program that has been "tested to work with" (tm) is something completely 
different and acceptable.


Further, you have some sites that are running Mailman on a server that 
is already running a different NNTP server.  Are you going to tell these 
sites that they have to switch from their current NNTP server to the one 
that ships with Mailman?  What if they refuse to switch?  Does that mean 
that they have chosen to abandon Mailman and go with another product?


Requiring a Mailman included NNTP server is a *VERY* big and (IMHO) bad 
thing to do.


At most, I think there should be an optional component that is tested 
and supported.  Any thing beyond that should be what we currently have, 
best effort support to work with an alternative part NNTP server.


You would be doing a gigantic service to newsgroup fans around the 
world. I sure hope you can manage this venture.


Is adding multiple additional news servers (that only carry groups for 
the mailing lists hosted on the server) really such a good service?  Or 
would it be better to (do what we currently do) gateway from Mailman and 
an existing NNTP server.


Well, if you pull this off, then IMO Mailman will blow competing 
products out of the water. Both freeware and payware.   :-)


There are already packages that provide web form / mailing list / 
newsgroup / news server integration all in one.  Synchronet comes to mind.




Grant. . . .
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

[Brad Knowles]

On Dec 23, 2009, at 1:12 PM, Derrick Wooden wrote:

> I'm well aware that SMTP doesn't mean instant.

Regretfully, you are the exception.  Most people don't seem to get this concept 
-- even people like my wife, and I've been trying to pound this one into her 
brain for ten years.

> I'm just looking at a solution that can cut 1E6 emails being delivered in 12
> hours down to say 4 hours.  With a fast server, correct MTA optimization and
> proper Mailman setup could this be attainable?

I believe so, yes.  However, optimization would have to be done at all levels, 
not just the MTA.

If you've got that many recipients, then you're probably seeing a lot of Python 
pickle contention during initial list delivery, and you'd want to break that 
down into a number of sub-lists.  If you have a million recipients, then a 
thousand sublists with a thousand subscribers each would probably be overkill, 
but a hundred sublists with ten thousand subscribers each probably would not be 
enough.

Using postfix, you can tune things for maximum parallelization, and eliminate 
things like unnecessary DNS queries and blacklist checks on outbound (because 
you've already done them on inbound, or it's an announce-only list and they 
don't need to be done at all).  You can also tune things so that any messages 
which don't get delivered right away can get pushed off onto another "slow 
delivery" server, thus keeping the primary server pumping as fast as possible.  
For an announce-only list, you might also want to consider putting the primary 
mail queues on solid-state disk -- you shouldn't need a particularly large SSD 
for the primary server if the "slow delivery" server has sufficient storage.

Your primary bottlenecks are going to be disk latency and locking contention.  
If you can eliminate or minimize those, everything else should flow as fast as 
your Internet connection allows.

> The Barack Obama email campaign used Postfix for their MTA and PHP Mailer to
> deliver their newsletters.  

How many people did they deliver to?  How many machines did they have doing 
delivery?  How often did they send out messages?  How large were those 
messages?  Did they do DKIM signing on each message?  There's lots of variables 
here that could affect their numbers relative to what you might be able to 
achieve.

> I'm using a package install of Mailman along with Exim through cPanel.  I
> now know that this setup is not optimal and needs lots of tweaking.  I'm
> looking into VERP also based on helpful information in the FAQs.

I've done the best I can to encode as much of my knowledge as possible into the 
FAQs.  Pretty much everything is there, or I point to references where the rest 
of the information can be found.  The key is knowing what you're looking for 
and when you've found it.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

[Derrick Wooden]

I'm well aware that SMTP doesn't mean instant.

I'm just looking at a solution that can cut 1E6 emails being delivered in 12
hours down to say 4 hours.  With a fast server, correct MTA optimization and
proper Mailman setup could this be attainable?
  
The Barack Obama email campaign used Postfix for their MTA and PHP Mailer to
deliver their newsletters.  

I'm using a package install of Mailman along with Exim through cPanel.  I
now know that this setup is not optimal and needs lots of tweaking.  I'm
looking into VERP also based on helpful information in the FAQs.


Bernd Petrovitsch-2 wrote:
> 
> On Don, 2009-12-17 at 17:04 -0800, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
>> Lots of it depends on the MTA (general opinion is that postfix seems to
>> be 
>> the fastest), connectivity, and list settings (personalized email will
>> take 
> Do I take the flame bait?;-)
> 
> Whatever you understand in detail under a "fast MTA" (and even if it
> would be the case), it doesn't really matter IMHO because
> a) Email/SMTP never was anywhere near "realtime" (though many people
>expect mails to be delivered in seconds),
> b) if your local Internet connection is too small, it doesn't help to
>have the fastest MTA[0],
> c) the local MTA resolves various hostnames and that could be "slow" and
>will involved timeouts (where every MTA out there just can wait)[0],
> d) if your hardware (RAM, disks) are too small or slow, the MTA really
>can't do anything (and I expect all widespread MTAS to reasonably
>minimize the I/O and memory anyways). That may be irrelevant on the
>usual small mailserver with average nowadays hardware but if you have
>e.g. a small ISP with >25K mailboxes and (on the average) 1E6 mails
>per day ("after" using DNSBLs blocking lots of spam/viruses before
>even sending "EHLO"), it
>looks quite different,
> e) b) for the remote MTA - but you have absolutely no influence on the 
>remote side[0],
> f) c) for the remote MTA - but you have absolutely no influence on the 
>remote side[0],
> g) the remote MTA may do extensive spam/virus checking, grey-listing,
>... - taking time - causing "slow" mail delivery you have absolutely
>no influence on the remote side[0].
> Of course the timeouts and waiting from above cost next to no
> resources/performance locally (so the MTA(s) usually deliver several
> emails in parallel without any problems as long as the box(es) do not
> trash) but it costs total time (which makes email delivery "slow").
> 
> So I don't think that saving 10% (or even 50%) local "speed" will make a
> significant difference (perhaps if you have a *really* large setup - but
> even then deploying one more box is cheaper than investing a day to
> improve the local performance. OK, saving a box is better for the world
> as such ).
> 
>   Bernd
> 
> [0]: And changing the local MTA won't solve that.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

[Brad Knowles]

On Dec 23, 2009, at 11:24 AM, Derrick Wooden wrote:

> Brad, upon reading this thread again you are correct.  It was NOT implied
> that MySQL would speed up email delivery, but rather MySQL would be a better
> database solution.

As a database, yes -- MySQL is better at that job than using Python "pickles", 
which is what Mailman does today.  Unfortunately, there are no official 
interfaces between the current version of Mailman and MySQL.  There is the 
MySQL Member Adapter, but it's not officially supported (so far as I know), so 
the best you can get with the current version is to run a script which 
periodically extracts the information from MySQL and then puts that into 
Mailman, and vice-versa.

Mailman3 will have a much improved database interface that will include MySQL, 
but it's not here yet.

> Brad, I would be interested in contracting your services.  Please email me
> off the forum.  derrickwooden AT gmail

Unfortunately, I am not in a position to do this kind of consulting anymore.  
I'll give advice for free, but that's the best I can do at the moment.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

[Derrick Wooden]

Brad Knowles-3 wrote:
> I don't know of any way that MySQL would factor into this discussion.  Can
> you provide a reference?
Brad, upon reading this thread again you are correct.  It was NOT implied
that MySQL would speed up email delivery, but rather MySQL would be a better
database solution.

Reference:
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/msg02401.html

Brad, I would be interested in contracting your services.  Please email me
off the forum.  derrickwooden AT gmail

I have a dedicated server that will solely be used for Mailman.  6GB of RAM,
Intel 2.6 GHz quad core.  Am interested in delivering email as fast as
possible.



Brad Knowles-3 wrote:
> 
> On Dec 18, 2009, at 12:15 AM, Derrick Wooden wrote:
> 
>> I have been doing a lot of reading along that wise.  As a result I'm
>> setting
>> up the new server with no cPanel and will use Postfix as my MTA.  I will
>> do
>> a clean install of Mailman 2.13 so that I can be on the same page as most
>> users.
> 
> It's not just the MTA.  It's also the configuration.  I could build a
> Sendmail configuration that could beat the pants off an out-of-the-box
> postfix configuration, if the list was large enough and I had enough
> hardware to do the job right.  I'm sure that we could find people who
> could do the same with Exim.
> 
> IMO, using postfix will give you a good initial default configuration and
> it won't take as much tweaking to improve the mail delivery performance,
> but that's just a personal opinion.
> 
>> I read in a 2004 (or earlier thread) where using MySQL db tables would
>> also
>> increase the speed.  I will also utilize this option.
> 
> I don't know of any way that MySQL would factor into this discussion.  Can
> you provide a reference?
> 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Dec 23, 2009, at 11:47 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

> Barry Warsaw writes:
> 
>> Mailman 3 is already more flexibly w.r.t. archivers, in the sense
>> that we define an interface between Mailman and generic archiver,
>> and then implement a number of modules to support everything from
>> Pipermail to mail-archive.com to MHonArc.  We should take the same
>> approach with forum integration.
> 
> Sure.  My point is that forum and archivers are likely to step on each
> others' toes.  Isn't that the case?  I would think you want one or the
> other, but not both.  Or am I just seeing bogies?

I don't know about bogies, but maybe overly festive elves? :)

I agree they overlap, but I think they're different media, and I think they 
serve different purposes.  They have to work together, but they can coexist.

-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Barry Warsaw writes:

 > Mailman 3 is already more flexibly w.r.t. archivers, in the sense
 > that we define an interface between Mailman and generic archiver,
 > and then implement a number of modules to support everything from
 > Pipermail to mail-archive.com to MHonArc.  We should take the same
 > approach with forum integration.

Sure.  My point is that forum and archivers are likely to step on each
others' toes.  Isn't that the case?  I would think you want one or the
other, but not both.  Or am I just seeing bogies?



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Dec 23, 2009, at 5:50 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

> Barry Warsaw writes:
>> On Dec 22, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
>> 
>>> Please - not to start a 'distro' war, but if work is going to be done, I
>>> hope it will be done in a modular fashion so that other forum software
>>> (with a plugin architecture) will be able to work with it.
>> 
>> Absolutely, just like we support multiple MTAs, web servers, etc.
> 
> Sounds non-trivial.  ISTM that this would conflict with pluggable
> archivers at least, and quite likely with other features of Mailman,
> since the functionality of Mailman, archivers, and forums all overlap
> substantially.

Mailman 3 is already more flexibly w.r.t. archivers, in the sense that we 
define an interface between Mailman and generic archiver, and then implement a 
number of modules to support everything from Pipermail to mail-archive.com to 
MHonArc.  We should take the same approach with forum integration.

-Barry

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Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman moderation

[Mark Sapiro]

Lucafr wrote:

>I have a mailing list with mailman 2.1.5: the list is moderate and I would
>like that the alert sent by mailman were not every day but in real time (I
>would like the admin will receive the alert everytime somebody send a
>message to the list).


Go to the web admin interface General Options page and set

Should the list moderators get immediate notice of new requests, as
well as daily notices about collected ones?
(Details for admin_immed_notify)

to Yes.

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[Mailman-Users] mailman moderation

[Lucafr]

Hi all
I have a mailing list with mailman 2.1.5: the list is moderate and I would
like that the alert sent by mailman were not every day but in real time (I
would like the admin will receive the alert everytime somebody send a
message to the list).
Someone know if it is possinle and how?
Thanks in advanced
Luca
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Bernd Petrovitsch writes:
 > On Don, 2009-12-17 at 17:04 -0800, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
 > > Lots of it depends on the MTA (general opinion is that postfix seems to be 
 > > the fastest), connectivity, and list settings (personalized email will 
 > > take 
 > Do I take the flame bait?;-)
 > 
 > Whatever you understand in detail under a "fast MTA" (and even if it
 > would be the case), it doesn't really matter IMHO because

"Fast MTA" does have a meaningful definition in list management.  For
Mailman purposes, a "fast MTA" is one whose default settings keep the
pipe full and reduce the backlog quickly, and (secondarily) uses few
host resources in doing so.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

[Luigi Rosa]

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Bernd Petrovitsch said the following on 23/12/09 11:20:

> a) Email/SMTP never was anywhere near "realtime" (though many people
>expect mails to be delivered in seconds),

Unfortunately, too much users tend to forget this basic concept: SMTP is not
designed to be an instant message service.


Ciao,
luigi

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman < > forum ?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Barry Warsaw writes:
 > On Dec 22, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
 > 
 > > Please - not to start a 'distro' war, but if work is going to be done, I
 > > hope it will be done in a modular fashion so that other forum software
 > > (with a plugin architecture) will be able to work with it.
 > 
 > Absolutely, just like we support multiple MTAs, web servers, etc.

Sounds non-trivial.  ISTM that this would conflict with pluggable
archivers at least, and quite likely with other features of Mailman,
since the functionality of Mailman, archivers, and forums all overlap
substantially.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Increasing the Speed of Email Delivery

[Bernd Petrovitsch]

On Don, 2009-12-17 at 17:04 -0800, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> Lots of it depends on the MTA (general opinion is that postfix seems to be 
> the fastest), connectivity, and list settings (personalized email will take 
Do I take the flame bait?;-)

Whatever you understand in detail under a "fast MTA" (and even if it
would be the case), it doesn't really matter IMHO because
a) Email/SMTP never was anywhere near "realtime" (though many people
   expect mails to be delivered in seconds),
b) if your local Internet connection is too small, it doesn't help to
   have the fastest MTA[0],
c) the local MTA resolves various hostnames and that could be "slow" and
   will involved timeouts (where every MTA out there just can wait)[0],
d) if your hardware (RAM, disks) are too small or slow, the MTA really
   can't do anything (and I expect all widespread MTAS to reasonably
   minimize the I/O and memory anyways). That may be irrelevant on the
   usual small mailserver with average nowadays hardware but if you have
   e.g. a small ISP with >25K mailboxes and (on the average) 1E6 mails
   per day ("after" using DNSBLs blocking lots of spam/viruses before
   even sending "EHLO"), it
   looks quite different,
e) b) for the remote MTA - but you have absolutely no influence on the 
   remote side[0],
f) c) for the remote MTA - but you have absolutely no influence on the 
   remote side[0],
g) the remote MTA may do extensive spam/virus checking, grey-listing,
   ... - taking time - causing "slow" mail delivery you have absolutely
   no influence on the remote side[0].
Of course the timeouts and waiting from above cost next to no
resources/performance locally (so the MTA(s) usually deliver several
emails in parallel without any problems as long as the box(es) do not
trash) but it costs total time (which makes email delivery "slow").

So I don't think that saving 10% (or even 50%) local "speed" will make a
significant difference (perhaps if you have a *really* large setup - but
even then deploying one more box is cheaper than investing a day to
improve the local performance. OK, saving a box is better for the world
as such ).

Bernd

[0]: And changing the local MTA won't solve that.
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