Re: [Mailman-Users] what effect does mm_cfg.py settingVERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES have if personalize (nondigest) is set to NO?

2012-06-16 Thread David 
On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 1:25 AM, Mark Sapiro  wrote:

>
> David wrote:
>
> >In mm_cfg.py I have these settings:
> >
> >OWNERS_CAN_ENABLE_PERSONALIZATION=Yes
> >VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES=Yes
> >VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes
> >VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes
> >
> >
> > If I set VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1 in mm_cfg.py, does that override any
> >list-specific settings, or any of the other settings above?
>
>
> It means that every post and every message to a LIST-owner will be
> verped regardless of other settings.
>


And, conversely, if  VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 0 (the default value), but
Full Personalization is enabled, then every post will also be verped.
Correct?

And thanks for your other answers in the above reply.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled

2012-06-16 Thread Lindsay Haisley 
I have no idea why AOL wants to make it difficult for list
administrators to unsubscribe people who don't want to be subscribed and
who complain to AOL about list posts being spam.  The only explanations
that come to mind are very sinister ones, but given the way things are
going these days, it may indeed be that AOL is truly trying to break the
Internet mail system so that they and their ilk can try to rebuild it
according to their own (for profit) model.

As of April 4, I was still receiving AOL's Email Feedback Reports with
the sender and return-path addresses improperly redacted in included
subject emails so that I could parse out the complaining subscriber.
e.g.:

Return-Path: 

These reports are fairly rare these days, and I haven't received any of
them from AOL since then, although I'm subscribed to their reports for
both of my servers.  If AOL is now fully redacting subscriber
information then indeed perhaps the only way to identify the complaining
subscriber is by tracing the Message ID through the mail log files.
Another alternative might be to add a header to outgoing messages to
include the subscriber address as a hash in an X-something header.
Assuming the management of AOL complaining subscribers via their Email
Feedback Reports is automated at the list server (as it is here) it
should be relatively fast and simple to extract the salt chars from the
hash and run a crypt on each subscriber address to see if it matches.

Is there anyone with the Mailman project with sufficiently informed
inside contacts at AOL who could find out exactly what's going on with
AOL (and Earthlink, which I believe uses the same system) and why
they're doing this?

It might be worth noting that one of the several lists I host will not
accept subscriptions from AOL addresses because of their problem
policies.  What with gmail accounts being free and easy to get, AOL is
simply cutting themselves out of the loop in the long run with their
policies.  No loss there!

On Sat, 2012-06-16 at 20:14 -0600, Terry Earley wrote:
> We are getting pretty frustrated with AOL. Their feedback report redacts
> addresses, so we enabled VERP and full personalization so the "envelope"
> can send us the actual address. No good:
> 
> Return-Path: 
> 
> To: redac...@aol.com
> Errors-To: all-bounces+redacted=aol@discuss.fiteyes.com
> Sender: all-bounces+redacted=aol@discuss.fiteyes.com
> 
> Terry
> fiteyes.com
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Re: [Mailman-Users] what effect does mm_cfg.py settingVERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES have if personalize (nondigest) is set to NO?

2012-06-16 Thread Mark Sapiro 
David wrote:

>In mm_cfg.py I have these settings:
>
>OWNERS_CAN_ENABLE_PERSONALIZATION=Yes
>VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES=Yes
>VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes
>VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes
>
>In a list with personalize (nondigest) set to NO, does that mean that all
>personalization options, including those above are not in effect?


It means that posts from the lis to members are not personalized so the

VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES=Yes

setting has no effect on this list. It has no effect/relation to the
other 3 settings.


>Next question:
>
> If I set VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1 in mm_cfg.py, does that override any
>list-specific settings, or any of the other settings above?


It means that every post and every message to a LIST-owner will be
verped regardless of other settings.


>Last question:
>
># Set this Yes to activate VERP probe for disabling by bounce
>VERP_PROBES = No
>
>It sounds like VERP_PROBES enhances automatic disabling by bounce. I assume
>I should enable it if I have VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES=Yes. Is that
>correct?


It has nothing to do with VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES. It means that
when a user's bounce score reaches the threshold, the score will be
reset and a VERPed probe message will be sent and the user's delivery
will be disabled only if the probe bounces.  If you set this to Yes
and there is some MTA issue preventing correct delivery of VERPed
bounces, users will never be disabled by bounce which is why the
default is No.

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.15 final released.

2012-06-16 Thread David 
On Sun, Jun 17, 2012 at 1:00 AM, Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> David wrote:
> >
> >How would I update from the version of Mailman 2.1.14 from Ubuntu's
> >repository (on Ubuntu 12.04)?
>
>
> If you are really interested in keeping up with GNU Mailman project
> releases as they are released,
>

This particular release has a bug fix that is of interest to us. But in
general, we are probably still too inexperienced with Mailman to try to
keep up with new releases as they are released. Maybe we'll be ready in the
Mailman 3.0 timeframe.



> However, see .
>

Very timely. Thank you!
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Re: [Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled

2012-06-16 Thread Lindsay Haisley 
I have no idea why AOL wants to make it difficult for list
administrators to unsubscribe people who don't want to be subscribed and
who complain to AOL about list posts being spam.  The only explanations
that come to mind are very sinister ones, but given the way things are
going these days, it may indeed be that AOL is truly trying to break the
Internet mail system so that they and their ilk can try to rebuild it
according to their own (for profit) model.

As of April 4, I was still receiving AOL's Email Feedback Reports with
the sender and return-path addresses improperly redacted in included
subject emails so that I could parse out the complaining subscriber.
e.g.:

Return-Path: 

These reports are fairly rare these days, and I haven't received any of
them from AOL since then, although I'm subscribed to their reports for
both of my servers.  If AOL is now fully redacting subscriber
information then indeed perhaps the only way to identify the complaining
subscriber is by tracing the Message ID through the mail log files.
Another alternative might be to add a header to outgoing messages to
include the subscriber address as a hash in an X-something header.
Assuming the management of AOL complaining subscribers via their Email
Feedback Reports is automated at the list server (as it is here) it
should be relatively fast and simple to extract the salt chars from the
hash and run a crypt on each subscriber address to see if it matches.

Is there anyone with the Mailman project with sufficiently informed
inside contacts at AOL who could find out exactly what's going on with
AOL (and Earthlink, which I believe uses the same system) and why
they're doing this?

It might be worth noting that one of the several lists I host will not
accept subscriptions from AOL addresses because of their problem
policies.  What with gmail accounts being free and easy to get, AOL is
simply cutting themselves out of the loop in the long run with their
policies.  No loss there!

On Sat, 2012-06-16 at 20:14 -0600, Terry Earley wrote:
> We are getting pretty frustrated with AOL. Their feedback report redacts
> addresses, so we enabled VERP and full personalization so the "envelope"
> can send us the actual address. No good:
> 
> Return-Path: 
> 
> To: redac...@aol.com
> Errors-To: all-bounces+redacted=aol@discuss.fiteyes.com
> Sender: all-bounces+redacted=aol@discuss.fiteyes.com
> 
> Terry
> fiteyes.com
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.15 final released.

2012-06-16 Thread Mark Sapiro 
David wrote:
>
>How would I update from the version of Mailman 2.1.14 from Ubuntu's
>repository (on Ubuntu 12.04)?


If you are really interested in keeping up with GNU Mailman project
releases as they are released, I suggest you back up your Mailman
lists/ and archives/ directories, remove your package and install from
source. See .

However, see .

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and abuse complaints

2012-06-16 Thread Brad Knowles 
On Jun 16, 2012, at 3:20 PM, David wrote:

> Thanks, but I'm not sure how to do that. The message ID we get from AOL is
> something like "snt0-p5-eas297e02bc8f051ef1aab0bfd3...@phx.gbl" and it is
> related to the sender. This same ID will show up in the postfix log for
> every outgoing copy of that message from that sender.
> 
> Could you explain how you trace from the message ID to your Postfix logs?
> (Maybe you use a different message ID?)

When you enable Full Personalization on Mailman, it will generate a unique 
message for each and every recipient, with a unique message-id.  If that 
message-id is not obscured by the Feedback Loop, then you can tell which user 
is at fault.  For a while, they did not redact the footers that were included 
in the message sent back, so you could personalize the footers and that would 
give you an alternate place to look.

I was the first Internet Mail Operations person ever hired by AOL and I was 
responsible for implementing the anti-spam measures that we had in place to 
prevent spam from getting onto the system, but regretfully the group that 
handles spam reports from AOL users is done by a different department.  Back 
when David O'Donnell was running that shop, they did a really good job.  But 
things have gone way down hill ever since.

I have long since gone past the point where I consider them to be a complete 
write-off, despite the fact that even my own wife still uses AOL.

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[Mailman-Users] AOL redacts user addresses even with VERP and full personalization enabled

2012-06-16 Thread Terry Earley 
We are getting pretty frustrated with AOL. Their feedback report redacts
addresses, so we enabled VERP and full personalization so the "envelope"
can send us the actual address. No good:

Return-Path: 

To: redac...@aol.com
Errors-To: all-bounces+redacted=aol@discuss.fiteyes.com
Sender: all-bounces+redacted=aol@discuss.fiteyes.com

Terry
fiteyes.com
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Re: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and abuse complaints

2012-06-16 Thread Lindsay Haisley 
If you look carefully at the full headers in the AOL notice you'll see that not 
all the VERP addresses are redacted. I believe the Sender header isn't 
redacted. I haven't visited the issue recently since I have a script on my 
servers which extracts the subscriber address from these AOL notices and 
automatically unsubscribes it. 

Lindsay Haisley
(512) 259-1190 (land line)
(512) 496-7118 (mobile)
Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 16, 2012, at 4:00 PM, Larry Stone  wrote:

> 
> 
> On Jun 16, 2012, at 3:15 PM, Ralf Hildebrandt  
> wrote:
> 
>> * David :
>> 
>>> Is there any method to identify the user from the AOL feedback loop? 
>> 
>> Of course, just use verp :)
>> -- 
>> 
> 
> The last I knew, AOL redacts the user name in their notice. In other words, a 
> something sent to this list marked as spam will show it as sent from 
> mailman-users+redac...@python.org.
> 
> I trace then from message ID and matching to my Postfix logs.
> 
> -- Larry Stone
>   lston...@stonejongleux.com
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Re: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and abuse complaints

2012-06-16 Thread Larry Stone 




On Jun 16, 2012, at 5:20 PM, David  wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Larry Stone  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> On Jun 16, 2012, at 3:15 PM, Ralf Hildebrandt  
> wrote:
> 
> > * David :
> >
> >> Is there any method to identify the user from the AOL feedback loop?
> 
> 
> I trace from message ID and matching to my Postfix logs.
> 
> Thanks, but I'm not sure how to do that. The message ID we get from AOL is 
> something like "snt0-p5-eas297e02bc8f051ef1aab0bfd3...@phx.gbl" and it is 
> related to the sender. This same ID will show up in the postfix log for every 
> outgoing copy of that message from that sender.
> 
> Could you explain how you trace from the message ID to your Postfix logs? 
> (Maybe you use a different message ID?)-

It's been a while so I must be misremembering. If not the message ID, then the 
postfix queue ID which IIRC is in the Received headers sent back by AOL. But 
looking back at my saved AOL spam reports, it's been over three years since a 
list subscriber did that to me so things may well have changed.

> Larry Stone
   la...@stonejongleux.com (and others)
   Sent from my iPad
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Re: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and abuse complaints

2012-06-16 Thread David 
On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Larry Stone wrote:

>
>
> On Jun 16, 2012, at 3:15 PM, Ralf Hildebrandt 
> wrote:
>
> > * David :
> >
> >> Is there any method to identify the user from the AOL feedback loop?
>
>
> I trace from message ID and matching to my Postfix logs.
>

Thanks, but I'm not sure how to do that. The message ID we get from AOL is
something like "snt0-p5-eas297e02bc8f051ef1aab0bfd3...@phx.gbl" and it is
related to the sender. This same ID will show up in the postfix log for
every outgoing copy of that message from that sender.

Could you explain how you trace from the message ID to your Postfix logs?
(Maybe you use a different message ID?)
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[Mailman-Users] what effect does mm_cfg.py setting VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES have if personalize (nondigest) is set to NO?

2012-06-16 Thread David 
In mm_cfg.py I have these settings:

OWNERS_CAN_ENABLE_PERSONALIZATION=Yes
VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES=Yes
VERP_PASSWORD_REMINDERS = Yes
VERP_CONFIRMATIONS = Yes

In a list with personalize (nondigest) set to NO, does that mean that all
personalization options, including those above are not in effect?

Next question:

 If I set VERP_DELIVERY_INTERVAL = 1 in mm_cfg.py, does that override any
list-specific settings, or any of the other settings above?

Last question:

# Set this Yes to activate VERP probe for disabling by bounce
VERP_PROBES = No

It sounds like VERP_PROBES enhances automatic disabling by bounce. I assume
I should enable it if I have VERP_PERSONALIZED_DELIVERIES=Yes. Is that
correct?

Thanks
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Re: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and abuse complaints

2012-06-16 Thread Larry Stone 


On Jun 16, 2012, at 3:15 PM, Ralf Hildebrandt  
wrote:

> * David :
> 
>> Is there any method to identify the user from the AOL feedback loop? 
> 
> Of course, just use verp :)
> -- 
> 

The last I knew, AOL redacts the user name in their notice. In other words, a 
something sent to this list marked as spam will show it as sent from 
mailman-users+redac...@python.org.

I trace then from message ID and matching to my Postfix logs.

-- Larry Stone
   lston...@stonejongleux.com
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Re: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and abuse complaints

2012-06-16 Thread Ralf Hildebrandt 
* David :

> Is there any method to identify the user from the AOL feedback loop? 

Of course, just use verp :)
-- 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.15 final released.

2012-06-16 Thread Andrew Hodgson 
David wrote:

>On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Mark Sapiro  wrote:

>> I am happy to announce the final release of Mailman 2.1.15.

>How would I update from the version of Mailman 2.1.14 from Ubuntu's repository 
>(on Ubuntu 12.04)?

Ubuntu won't update this package by the normal route until the next version of 
Ubuntu is released (probably 12.10).  There are a couple of options:

1.  Build Mailman from source and run the version you want with the patches you 
want.

2.  Look at using packages from the testing/unstable Debian archives.

I have done option 1, build my own Mailman from source with the Htdig search 
engine patches.

Andrew. 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and abuse complaints

2012-06-16 Thread Ralf Hildebrandt 
* Terry Earley :

> Maybe VERP is the best solution for AOL and her evil step-sisters if you
> can stand the overhead?

Yep.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.15 final released.

2012-06-16 Thread David 
On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 1:04 PM, Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> I am happy to announce the final release of Mailman 2.1.15.



How would I update from the version of Mailman 2.1.14 from Ubuntu's
repository (on Ubuntu 12.04)?
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Re: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and abuse complaints

2012-06-16 Thread Geoff Shang 

On Sat, 16 Jun 2012, Larry Stone wrote:

Sad to say, that does appear to be how AOL thinks. Their customers never 
make mistakes, etc. If a customer clicked "Mark as spam", then it's spam 
and that point is not open to discussion.


They're not the only one.  Roadrunner blocked all the mail from the server 
I used to administer because of one user on one list.


Fortunately, subscribing to their feedback loop fixed that.  But they 
weren't willing to give the user's address either.  I managed to figure it 
out but that's not the point.


Geoff.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and abuse complaints

2012-06-16 Thread Terry Earley 
>
> I can usually figure out who did it my some sleuthing through the mail
> server logs.
>
I would be very interested to know how you track these down from the logs.
Have you or anyone used VERP so AOL cannot mung that email address?

Terry

On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 10:20 AM, Larry Stone wrote:

>
> On Jun 16, 2012, at 11:02 AM, Richard Damon wrote:
>
> > On 6/15/12 8:51 PM, David wrote:
> >> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt <
> >> ralf.hildebra...@charite.de> wrote:
> >>
> >>> * Thomas Hochstein :
>  Ralf Hildebrandt schrieb:
> 
> > Yahoo! users are truly special.
>  AOL users are, too. (They also have a feedback loop.)
> >>> Yeah, and it's even worse, since it tries to weed out all info one
> >>> needs to identify the user :(
> >>>
> >> Is there any method to identify the user from the AOL feedback loop? If
> >> not, how does AOL expect us to unsubscribe the user who complained?
> >>
> > They DON'T expect you to unsubscribe the user who marked you as spam,
> > but to stop the "spammer" who is sending out the email marked as spam.
> > The whole system is based on the premise that the recipient (their
> > customer) is totally innocent, and the send (your list) is the guilty
> > party. They are telling you, as an ISP, to stop your customer (your
> > list) from sending "SPAM". They are totally missing that their customer
> > at a previous point ASKED for the email (at least I am presuming you
> > haven't bypassed the safeguards built into Mailman to avoid abuse) and
> > now has used the "Mark as spam" button as a attempt to unsubscribe
> > because they can't (or won't) figure out the proper way to do it.
>
>
> Sad to say, that does appear to be how AOL thinks. Their customers never
> make mistakes, etc. If a customer clicked "Mark as spam", then it's spam
> and that point is not open to discussion.
>
> It's been a long while since I've received an AOL spam report but despite
> their redacting, I can usually figure out who did it my some sleuthing
> through the mail server logs. My policy for AOL users is straightforward
> and ruthless: do it once and you get banned from my lists and my server. I
> banned my cousin once (and in typical AOLuser fashion, denied clicking the
> button - and he used to work for AOL!).
>
> --
> Larry Stone
> lston...@stonejongleux.com
> http://www.stonejongleux.com/
>
>
>
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Re: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and abuse complaints

2012-06-16 Thread Larry Stone 

On Jun 16, 2012, at 11:02 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

> On 6/15/12 8:51 PM, David wrote:
>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt <
>> ralf.hildebra...@charite.de> wrote:
>> 
>>> * Thomas Hochstein :
 Ralf Hildebrandt schrieb:
 
> Yahoo! users are truly special.
 AOL users are, too. (They also have a feedback loop.)
>>> Yeah, and it's even worse, since it tries to weed out all info one
>>> needs to identify the user :(
>>> 
>> Is there any method to identify the user from the AOL feedback loop? If
>> not, how does AOL expect us to unsubscribe the user who complained?
>> 
> They DON'T expect you to unsubscribe the user who marked you as spam,
> but to stop the "spammer" who is sending out the email marked as spam.
> The whole system is based on the premise that the recipient (their
> customer) is totally innocent, and the send (your list) is the guilty
> party. They are telling you, as an ISP, to stop your customer (your
> list) from sending "SPAM". They are totally missing that their customer
> at a previous point ASKED for the email (at least I am presuming you
> haven't bypassed the safeguards built into Mailman to avoid abuse) and
> now has used the "Mark as spam" button as a attempt to unsubscribe
> because they can't (or won't) figure out the proper way to do it.


Sad to say, that does appear to be how AOL thinks. Their customers never make 
mistakes, etc. If a customer clicked "Mark as spam", then it's spam and that 
point is not open to discussion.

It's been a long while since I've received an AOL spam report but despite their 
redacting, I can usually figure out who did it my some sleuthing through the 
mail server logs. My policy for AOL users is straightforward and ruthless: do 
it once and you get banned from my lists and my server. I banned my cousin once 
(and in typical AOLuser fashion, denied clicking the button - and he used to 
work for AOL!).

-- 
Larry Stone
lston...@stonejongleux.com
http://www.stonejongleux.com/



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Re: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and abuse complaints

2012-06-16 Thread Richard Damon 
On 6/15/12 8:51 PM, David wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt <
> ralf.hildebra...@charite.de> wrote:
>
>> * Thomas Hochstein :
>>> Ralf Hildebrandt schrieb:
>>>
 Yahoo! users are truly special.
>>> AOL users are, too. (They also have a feedback loop.)
>> Yeah, and it's even worse, since it tries to weed out all info one
>> needs to identify the user :(
>>
> Is there any method to identify the user from the AOL feedback loop? If
> not, how does AOL expect us to unsubscribe the user who complained?
>
They DON'T expect you to unsubscribe the user who marked you as spam,
but to stop the "spammer" who is sending out the email marked as spam.
The whole system is based on the premise that the recipient (their
customer) is totally innocent, and the send (your list) is the guilty
party. They are telling you, as an ISP, to stop your customer (your
list) from sending "SPAM". They are totally missing that their customer
at a previous point ASKED for the email (at least I am presuming you
haven't bypassed the safeguards built into Mailman to avoid abuse) and
now has used the "Mark as spam" button as a attempt to unsubscribe
because they can't (or won't) figure out the proper way to do it.

-- 
Richard Damon

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Re: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 2.1.15 final released.

2012-06-16 Thread Odhiambo Washington 
On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 8:04 PM, Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> I am happy to announce the final release of Mailman 2.1.15. This
> release is identical to the 2.1.15rc1 release except for the version
> number and the inclusion of a missing part of the HTML installation
> manual.
>
> Python 2.4 is the minimum supported, but Python 2.6 is recommended.
> This release should work with Python 2.7, but has not been tested with
> that version.
>
>
I have tested it with Python 2.7 and I have not encountered any problems.
I have been running a live site on Python 2.7 with 2.1.14, 2.1.15rc and now
I am installing 2.1.15.



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Nairobi,KE
+254733744121/+254722743223
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
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Re: [Mailman-Users] more questions about Yahoo feedback loop and abuse complaints

2012-06-16 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull 
David writes:

 > Is there any method to identify the user from the AOL feedback loop?

Not for sure.  Over time, they seem redact ever more information from
the report.

 > If not, how does AOL expect us to unsubscribe the user who complained?

Why would they care?  Customers rarely remember accidently hitting the
spam button (or rarely admit it -- even your user who wants your mail
doesn't remember doing so), although *we* can be pretty sure they do
so frequently.  So it's easy for them to blame the lists, saying that
the lists have passed spam, and the lists are just trying to shift
blame to the users.  So the big ISPs for "nontechnical users" maintain
a position of "fix your spam problem and you'll be OK" to some degree.
And the complaining user doesn't have a problem any more (not with
your list) since it's blocked.  Few non-technical users consider such
severe reaction to spam inappropriate, as far as I can tell.  And
blocking mail costs them nothing in terms of real resources, since
there's so much genuine spam out there.

OTOH, as far as I can tell, the big ISPs consider lists competition,
not complements (and I think they're correct[1] -- they want users
using their web fora).  So they have little incentive to allocate
resources to making lists work smoothly.


Footnotes: 
[1]  Barry is only half-joking when he says he hopes Mailman 3 will
kill web fora.  That's not going to happen, for a variety of reasons,
but Mailman 3 will put lists on a much more even footing with the web
fora.

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