Re: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.18 internal documentation suggestions

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Larry Stone writes:

 > Seems to me saying “Try to ensure that 'From:' is “aligned” with …”
 > does it.

No.  The problem is the author's email provider (ie, the mail domain
of the person whose address is in the original From).  For most lists,
Mailman does *not* want "From" to be aligned with any particular
domain, it wants to just pass "From" through.  RFC 5322 quite clear
that this is the correct behavior (as are all of its predecessors).

 > I’d prefer to put the header field name in quotes or otherwise
 > distinguish it. Otherwise, it can be difficult to parse - is “from”
 > the header or a preposition.

Sure.

 > But, I don’t like “author’s domain”. Who or what is the author?

"The author" is the person responsible for the content of the message,
per RFC 5322 (and all of its predecessors).  You could substitute "the
original 'From' address" if that seems more intelligible to
non-technical admins.

 > Why not just say “the Mailman server’s domain” since that’s what
 > it’s going to be aligned with.

That may or may not be true, depending on how the host is set up.  For
example, it may not participate in SPF or DKIM at all.  DMARC
alignment is a rather complex concept.  I do not think it's a good
idea to have sloppy wording here.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.18 internal documentation suggestions

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/30/2014 09:06 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> On Wed, 2014-04-30 at 17:42 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> If this is set to Wrap Message, just wrap the message in an outer
>> message From: the list with Content-Type: message/rfc822.
>>
> Since this is the _outer_ wrapper, shouldn't this be multipart/mixed?
> The inner _real_ list post is Content-Type: message/rfc822.


Actually, initially, an outer message with Content-Type: message/rfc822
is created with body equal to the original message. I.e. as described.

But, by the time the user receives it, it will have been decorated with
msg_header and/or msg_footer assuming at least one is non empty, and it
then becomes some subset of

multipart/mixed
text/plain  <- the msg_header
message/rfc822  <- the original message
text/plain  <- msg_footer

but initially, it is just a single part message/rfc822 message
containing the original message, analogous to a single part text/plain
message containing a plain text body.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.18 internal documentation suggestions

[Lindsay Haisley]

On Thu, 2014-05-01 at 11:57 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> from_alignment:  Try to ensure that From is not "misaligned" with
> the author's domain, to conform with protocols like DMARC.
> [FIXME: I don't see how to avoid the double negative.  Help?!]

from_alignment:  Try to ensure that From is "aligned" with
the author's domain, to conform with protocols like DMARC.
 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.18 internal documentation suggestions

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/30/2014 07:57 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
> May as well rewrite the doc ... here goes:
> 
> from_alignment:  Try to ensure that From is not "misaligned" with
> the author's domain, to conform with protocols like DMARC.
> [FIXME: I don't see how to avoid the double negative.  Help?!]


I'm not sure what to change at this point. I really don't want another
change in the attribute name, but maybe.

I'm also not sure about alignment as that is a technical term in the
DMARC spec and may be more technical than we want here.

If I understand the double negative remark, what about 'From is
"aligned" ...', but that really is not the issue. The issue is that if
the From: domain publishes a DMARC p=reject policy, that domain must
align with that of a valid DKIM signature or a valid SPF envelope
sender/server. The SPF won't align because the envelope is from the
list's domain for bounce processing, and the DKIM sig from the author's
domain won't validate because of list transformations on the message.

We are really rewriting the From: header (I need to remove the 'sender'
wording) to avoid it's containing the author's address because that
address won't pass DMARC.


> This setting replaces the from_is_list setting, which is now
> deprecated.  Existing from_is_list settings will be respected.
> 
> Several protocols now in wide use attempt to ensure that use of
> the domain in the author's address (ie, in the From header field)
> is authorized by that domain.  These protocols may be incompatible
> with common list features such as footers, causing participating
> email services to bounce list traffic merely because of the
> address in the From field.  *This has resulted in members being
> unsubscribed despite being perfectly able to receive mail.*
> 
> The following actions are applied to messages where use of such a
> protocol is detected by Mailman.  [FIXME: Is that correct?]


The current from_is_list applies to all list messages.
dmarc_moderation_action applies only to messages From: a domain "where
use of such a protocol is detected by Mailman."


> Valid values:
> 
> 'no': Do nothing special.  This is appropriate for anonymous lists.
> It is appropriate for dedicated announcement lists, unless the
> "From" address is not within the Mailman host's domain.  [FIXME:
> Maybe None is a better value here.  Of course that's not backward
> compatible, but with the name change it would be possible to check
> the old from_is_list.]
> 
> 'shift author': Shift the address(es) in From to Reply-To
> (preserving existing addresses in Reply-To), and insert the list's
> [posting?] address in From.
>
> 'wrap message': Treat the message as a MIME forward with list in
> From and the original message encapsulated in a MIME message/rfc822
> part.  Subscribers will perceive this as a "one message digest".
> [FIXME: Should this respect the MIME vs. legacy encapsulation
> ('digest') setting?  If 'yes', that setting should move to General
> or so?]


I don't want to go the FIXME route. It's too hard for this release.
Also, are you suggesting doing this for all messages based on what is
now Digest options-> mime_is_default_digest or doing it per user based
on the user's "Get MIME or Plain Text Digests?" (which has a value for
everyone even if they don't get digests). Of course, we are only
concerned with non-digest members here and their value is probably the
list default anyway.

Also, this (legacy encapsulation) really only differs from the Munge
>From option in that a few headers are copied to the body of the message
and non-text/plain part are scrubbed, and I don't know how valuable it
would be.


>  > These settings play as expected with the anonymous_list and Reply-To:
> 
> What does "as expected" mean?  (If *I* have to ask :-)


Point taken.


>  > header munging settings below with the exception of adding "via
>  > real_name" to the display name in the From: for an anonymous list and
> 
> ??  Adding real name to From in an *anonymous* list?


real_name refers the the list attribute which is the list name with
possibly different capitalization, but I see it should be changed.


>  > adding the poster's address to Reply-To: in almost all cases.
>  > 
>  > If anonymous_list is Yes, there is no reason to set from_is_list to
>  > anything other than No.
> 
> Unnecessary with my wording above.
> 
>  > If dmarc_moderation_action applies to this message with an action other
>  > than Accept, that action rather than this is applied
> 
> This doesn't seem correct.  True, if Reject (aka "emit backscatter")
> or Discard, the message will never reach this point.  But if it's
> Hold, this processing will be applied if the message is accepted by
> the moderator.  How about


Hold is not an option for dmarc_moderation_action. it is the action
which applies to messages From: a domain with DMARC policy p=reject an
o

Re: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.18 internal documentation suggestions

[Lindsay Haisley]

On Wed, 2014-04-30 at 17:42 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Note I also removed the bit about SPF and DKIM signing. They actually
> may help with acceptance of your list mail by some ESPs, but not because
> of DMARC, and the note could discourage people from using this when it
> shouldn't.

DKIM signing isn't readily available for many MTAs, so this is good.  My
server uses courier-MTA for which DKIM signing isn't well developed.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.18 internal documentation suggestions

[Lindsay Haisley]

On Wed, 2014-04-30 at 17:42 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> If this is set to Wrap Message, just wrap the message in an outer
> message From: the list with Content-Type: message/rfc822.
> 
Since this is the _outer_ wrapper, shouldn't this be multipart/mixed?
The inner _real_ list post is Content-Type: message/rfc822.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.18 internal documentation suggestions

[Larry Stone]

On Apr 30, 2014, at 9:57 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull  wrote:

> May as well rewrite the doc ... here goes:
> 
>from_alignment:  Try to ensure that From is not "misaligned" with
>the author's domain, to conform with protocols like DMARC.
>[FIXME: I don't see how to avoid the double negative.  Help?!]

Seems to me saying “Try to ensure that 'From:' is “aligned” with …” does it. 
I’d prefer to put the header field name in quotes or otherwise distinguish it. 
Otherwise, it can be difficult to parse - is “from” the header or a preposition.

But, I don’t like “author’s domain”. Who or what is the author? Why not just 
say “the Mailman server’s domain” since that’s what it’s going to be aligned 
with. 

>'no': Do nothing special.  This is appropriate for anonymous lists.
>It is appropriate for dedicated announcement lists, unless the
>"From" address is not within the Mailman host's domain.  [FIXME:
>Maybe None is a better value here.  Of course that's not backward
>compatible, but with the name change it would be possible to check
>the old from_is_list.]

None is better. No would only be appropriate if ‘yes’ was the other option. But 
backwards compatibility is important too (even if it’s not to most large 
computer companies :-( ).


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Re: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.18 internal documentation suggestions

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > I changed it. In the 2.1.18 final it will say:
 > 
 > -
 > from_is_list (general): Replace the sender with the list address to
 > conform with policies like DMARC.
 > 
 > Replace the sender with the list address to conform with policies like
 > ADSP and DMARC. It replaces the poster's address in the From: header
 > with the list address and adds the poster to the Reply-To: header.
 > 
 > If this is set to Wrap Message, just wrap the message in an outer
 > message From: the list with Content-Type: message/rfc822.

Ouch!  I'd really like to change this variable's name!  (It's not very
easy to understand anyway; grammatically the semantics are "whatever
you see in From is {a, the} list", not "replace whatever is in From
with the list's address".)

Something like "from_alignment", with values None (don't try to align
domains in From), 'shift author' (From into Reply-To,  into
From), or 'wrap message'.

May as well rewrite the doc ... here goes:

from_alignment:  Try to ensure that From is not "misaligned" with
the author's domain, to conform with protocols like DMARC.
[FIXME: I don't see how to avoid the double negative.  Help?!]

This setting replaces the from_is_list setting, which is now
deprecated.  Existing from_is_list settings will be respected.

Several protocols now in wide use attempt to ensure that use of
the domain in the author's address (ie, in the From header field)
is authorized by that domain.  These protocols may be incompatible
with common list features such as footers, causing participating
email services to bounce list traffic merely because of the
address in the From field.  *This has resulted in members being
unsubscribed despite being perfectly able to receive mail.*

The following actions are applied to messages where use of such a
protocol is detected by Mailman.  [FIXME: Is that correct?]

Valid values:

'no': Do nothing special.  This is appropriate for anonymous lists.
It is appropriate for dedicated announcement lists, unless the
"From" address is not within the Mailman host's domain.  [FIXME:
Maybe None is a better value here.  Of course that's not backward
compatible, but with the name change it would be possible to check
the old from_is_list.]

'shift author': Shift the address(es) in From to Reply-To
(preserving existing addresses in Reply-To), and insert the list's
[posting?] address in From.

'wrap message': Treat the message as a MIME forward with list in
From and the original message encapsulated in a MIME message/rfc822
part.  Subscribers will perceive this as a "one message digest".
[FIXME: Should this respect the MIME vs. legacy encapsulation
('digest') setting?  If 'yes', that setting should move to General
or so?]

 > These settings play as expected with the anonymous_list and Reply-To:

What does "as expected" mean?  (If *I* have to ask :-)

 > header munging settings below with the exception of adding "via
 > real_name" to the display name in the From: for an anonymous list and

??  Adding real name to From in an *anonymous* list?

 > adding the poster's address to Reply-To: in almost all cases.
 > 
 > If anonymous_list is Yes, there is no reason to set from_is_list to
 > anything other than No.

Unnecessary with my wording above.

 > If dmarc_moderation_action applies to this message with an action other
 > than Accept, that action rather than this is applied

This doesn't seem correct.  True, if Reject (aka "emit backscatter")
or Discard, the message will never reach this point.  But if it's
Hold, this processing will be applied if the message is accepted by
the moderator.  How about

See also dmarc_moderation_action (which will be applied earlier in
processing than this feature).
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Excessive bounces to list members on my list

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Peter Shute writes:

 > Another question is what happens if yahoo groups receive aol
 > bounces. They might not use them to disable or unsubscribe members,
 > which would limit the damage to just non delivery.

Yahoo! is a proprietary service, not in the habit of telling anybody
what they're doing or why.  You'll have to ask them.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.18 internal documentation suggestions

[Lindsay Haisley]

On Wed, 2014-04-30 at 15:18 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> I hear you. It is badly explained and I need to fix it. Thanks for
> raising this.
> 
Mailman is open source software and I use it.  It's my job :)

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Re: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.18 internal documentation suggestions

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/30/2014 03:18 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 04/30/2014 12:56 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> 
>> I can probably figure this out, but it might be good to explain this a
>> bit more completely in the Mailman internal docs.  It's not really clear
>> exactly how these options relate, and how the precedence of settings is
>> organized.  These may be stupid questions, but I can just about
>> guarantee you that all my list admins will trip on them :(
> 
> 
> I hear you. It is badly explained and I need to fix it. Thanks for
> raising this.


I changed it. In the 2.1.18 final it will say:

-
from_is_list (general): Replace the sender with the list address to
conform with policies like DMARC.

Replace the sender with the list address to conform with policies like
ADSP and DMARC. It replaces the poster's address in the From: header
with the list address and adds the poster to the Reply-To: header.

If this is set to Wrap Message, just wrap the message in an outer
message From: the list with Content-Type: message/rfc822.

These settings play as expected with the anonymous_list and Reply-To:
header munging settings below with the exception of adding "via
real_name" to the display name in the From: for an anonymous list and
adding the poster's address to Reply-To: in almost all cases.

If anonymous_list is Yes, there is no reason to set from_is_list to
anything other than No.

If dmarc_moderation_action applies to this message with an action other
than Accept, that action rather than this is applied
-

Note I also removed the bit about SPF and DKIM signing. They actually
may help with acceptance of your list mail by some ESPs, but not because
of DMARC, and the note could discourage people from using this when it
shouldn't.

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Issue approving subscription requests

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/30/2014 11:58 AM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Mark Sapiro  > wrote:
> 
> 
> See the script at .
> 
> 
> Tried that, got this:
> 
> ./list_requests -H -l 
>(name) 
> (S)kip, (A)ccept, (R)eject, (D)iscard [sard] A
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "./list_requests", line 216, in 
> main()
>   File "./list_requests", line 128, in main
> changed += handle_req(mlist, id)
>   File "./list_requests", line 204, in handle_req
> mlist.HandleRequest(id, mm_cfg.APPROVE)
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/ListAdmin.py", line 172, in HandleRequest
> status = self.__handlesubscription(data, value, comment)
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/ListAdmin.py", line 428, in
> __handlesubscription
> assert value == mm_cfg.SUBSCRIBE


The script never worked to approve (un)subscriptions. Sorry about that.
It's fixed now. get the version with

# Copyright (C) 1998-2014 by the Free Software Foundation, Inc.

from  or
, and it will work.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Private mailing list reply watcher

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/30/2014 07:33 AM, Tomas Babej wrote:
> 
> I plan to write a script that will handle such cases in a generic way,
> however, I don't like reinventing the wheel. Does anybody know if this
> problem has already been solved?


What problem are you trying to solve? Remailing the reply from the list
archive to the original sender, or something else?

>From your Subject:, it seems you're looking for something that monitors
list traffic and in case of a message determined to be a reply to the
list with no Cc: to someone else, sends that message to the someone
else, but identifying to whom might be tricky. I'd be interested in what
you come up with.

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[Mailman-Users] Private mailing list reply watcher

[Tomas Babej]

Hi,

for our organization, we do host several mailing lists that serve two
purposes:

* for our internal communication
* for people outside our organization to contact us

However, it sometimes happens that a person that is not a member (and
thus not subscribed to the list) writes us an email and we do reply, but
to the list only (by mistake), not delivering the message to the
intended participant.

I plan to write a script that will handle such cases in a generic way,
however, I don't like reinventing the wheel. Does anybody know if this
problem has already been solved?

Thanks,

Tomas
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Re: [Mailman-Users] 2.1.18 internal documentation suggestions

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/30/2014 12:56 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> The internal documentation in the admin screens for 2.1.18 is a bit
> confusing with regard to Reply-To munging.
> 
> In the doc for the from_is_list option we have "It replaces the poster's
> address in the From: header with the list address and adds the poster to
> the Reply-To: header, but the anonymous_list and Reply-To: header
> munging settings below take priority."
> 
> Which Reply-To: header munging settings take priority, and how should
> one set them so that they don't override from_is_list?


If you set anonymous_list = Yes the post will be fully anonymized as
before which includes setting the From: to the list address. Thus,
setting anonymous_list = Yes obviates the need for From: header munging
because you're already doing it.

However, the statment "the anonymous_list and Reply-To: header munging
settings below take priority." is probably not correct. It comes from
2.1.16 which was a bit different with respect to Reply-To:.

In 2.1.18, with anonymous_list - Yes and from_is_list = No, From: will
be "List's description " and there will be no
Reply-To:. If from_is list is Munge (or Wrap) the (outer) From: will be
"List's description via list's real_name " and the
(outer) Reply-To will be "List's description "

So the from_is_list options add 'via real_name' to the From: and add a
redundant Reply-To: the list.

from_is_list interacts with first_strip_reply_to and reply_goes_to_list
in the way one intuitively expects. I.e. first_strip_reply_to and
reply_goes_to_list behave as always and from_is_list just adds the
posters From: to Reply-To: if it isn't there already (and in the case of
an anonymous list, the poster's From: has already been set to the list.

That text should probably be changed. I don't like to change strings
that have already been translated and this one was for 2.1.16 for a few
languages, but I should fix it.


> If dmarc_moderation_action overrides from_is_list, as the doc for it
> says it does, is it also overridden by Reply-To: header munging
> settings?


As I explained above, from_is_list works in all cases. And, the same is
true for dmarc_moderation_action if it applies.


> Also, in the doc for reply_goes_to_list, we see "When set to Poster [the
> default], no Reply-To: header is added by Mailman".  Does this mean that
> this overrides from_is_list, which if set says that it causes the
> original From header to be inserted into the Reply-To header?


No. The poster's address will be added to Reply-To: in all cases where
from_is_list or dmarc_moderation_action rewriting or wrapping is done.


> I can probably figure this out, but it might be good to explain this a
> bit more completely in the Mailman internal docs.  It's not really clear
> exactly how these options relate, and how the precedence of settings is
> organized.  These may be stupid questions, but I can just about
> guarantee you that all my list admins will trip on them :(


I hear you. It is badly explained and I need to fix it. Thanks for
raising this.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Issue approving subscription requests

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/30/2014 11:58 AM, Murray S. Kucherawy wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Mark Sapiro  > wrote:
> 
> 
> See the script at .
> 
> 
> Tried that, got this:
> 
> ./list_requests -H -l 
>(name) 
> (S)kip, (A)ccept, (R)eject, (D)iscard [sard] A
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>   File "./list_requests", line 216, in 
> main()
>   File "./list_requests", line 128, in main
> changed += handle_req(mlist, id)
>   File "./list_requests", line 204, in handle_req
> mlist.HandleRequest(id, mm_cfg.APPROVE)
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/ListAdmin.py", line 172, in HandleRequest
> status = self.__handlesubscription(data, value, comment)
>   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/ListAdmin.py", line 428, in
> __handlesubscription
> assert value == mm_cfg.SUBSCRIBE


I guess I never tested accepting a subscription :(

I have the same issue. I'll fix and post when I have.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman error (2.1.16): "low level unrecoverable exception"

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/30/2014 11:30 AM, Robert Heller wrote:
> What does this error message mean? "low level unrecoverable exception"


It means something really bad happened. One of the Mailman web CGIs
threw an exception and the CGI driver script encountered another
exception while trying to log a traceback and the environment info.


> I just installed my own build of mailman 2.1.16 (built under CentOS 5 x84_64)
> as an upgrade over the stock 2.1.9 that comes with CentOS 5 and I am getting
> this error. What should I be looking for? 


Did you restart Mailman or stop before, start after?

Did you totally remove the Centos package or try to 'upgrade' it. The
latter is not at all straightforward. See the FAQ at
.

There was an issue a while back, see
,
but this was due to a SuSE patch that referenced a Python xml library
that wasn't installed. The specifics aren't relevant to your issue, but
it could indicate there's something missing in your python. Have you
installed the python-dev package?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.16: where is the from_is_list option?

[Brian Carpenter]

> -Original Message-
> From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-
> bounces+brian=emwd@python.org] On Behalf Of Robert Heller
> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 3:40 PM
> To: Mailman Users
> Subject: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.16: where is the from_is_list option?
> 
> I can't seem to find this option!
> 
> I have mailman 2.1.16 setup on a test server, but I cannot find the
> from_is_list option.  Is there some special config magic that is needed
for
> this?
> 
> --
> Robert Heller -- 978-544-6933 / hel...@deepsoft.com
> Deepwoods Software-- http://www.deepsoft.com/
> ()  ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail
> /\  www.asciiribbon.org   -- against proprietary attachments
> 
> 

Put the following at the bottom of your mm_cfg.py file and then restart
mailman:

ALLOW_FROM_IS_LIST = Yes

Please see:

http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=17891458

Brian Carpenter
EMWD.com

Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com

 


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[Mailman-Users] 2.1.18 internal documentation suggestions

[Lindsay Haisley]

The internal documentation in the admin screens for 2.1.18 is a bit
confusing with regard to Reply-To munging.

In the doc for the from_is_list option we have "It replaces the poster's
address in the From: header with the list address and adds the poster to
the Reply-To: header, but the anonymous_list and Reply-To: header
munging settings below take priority."

Which Reply-To: header munging settings take priority, and how should
one set them so that they don't override from_is_list?

If dmarc_moderation_action overrides from_is_list, as the doc for it
says it does, is it also overridden by Reply-To: header munging
settings?

Also, in the doc for reply_goes_to_list, we see "When set to Poster [the
default], no Reply-To: header is added by Mailman".  Does this mean that
this overrides from_is_list, which if set says that it causes the
original From header to be inserted into the Reply-To header?

I can probably figure this out, but it might be good to explain this a
bit more completely in the Mailman internal docs.  It's not really clear
exactly how these options relate, and how the precedence of settings is
organized.  These may be stupid questions, but I can just about
guarantee you that all my list admins will trip on them :(

-- 
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FMP Computer Services |
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Excessive bounces to list members on my list

[Peter Shute]

> On 1 May 2014, at 12:47 am, "Mark Sapiro"  wrote:
> 
>> On 04/30/2014 06:20 AM, Larry Finch wrote:
>> 
>>> On Apr 30, 2014, at 5:11 AM, Peter Shute  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Is yahoo doing the same thing for yahoo groups?
>> 
>> Yahoo doesn’t have to. Mail from a Yahoo group already has a Yahoo domain in 
>> the From field - the group address.
> 
> 
> To be more precise, mail from yahoo groups has an envelope sender
> @returns.groups.yahoo.com so it passes SPF with a domain aligned with a
> yahoo.com From:.
> 
> I don't know what Yahoo groups is doing with mail From: aol.com or
> others with p=reject. A subject for further testing ...

Another question is what happens if yahoo groups receive aol  bounces. They 
might not use them to disable or unsubscribe members, which would limit the 
damage to just non delivery.

Peter Shute
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[Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.16: where is the from_is_list option?

[Robert Heller]

I can't seem to find this option! 

I have mailman 2.1.16 setup on a test server, but I cannot find the 
from_is_list option.  Is there some special config magic that is needed for 
this?

-- 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Issue approving subscription requests

[Murray S. Kucherawy]

On Tue, Apr 29, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Mark Sapiro  wrote:

>
> See the script at .
>
>
Tried that, got this:

./list_requests -H -l 
   (name) 
(S)kip, (A)ccept, (R)eject, (D)iscard [sard] A
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "./list_requests", line 216, in 
main()
  File "./list_requests", line 128, in main
changed += handle_req(mlist, id)
  File "./list_requests", line 204, in handle_req
mlist.HandleRequest(id, mm_cfg.APPROVE)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/ListAdmin.py", line 172, in HandleRequest
status = self.__handlesubscription(data, value, comment)
  File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/ListAdmin.py", line 428, in
__handlesubscription
assert value == mm_cfg.SUBSCRIBE
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[Mailman-Users] Mailman error (2.1.16): "low level unrecoverable exception"

[Robert Heller]

What does this error message mean? "low level unrecoverable exception"

I just installed my own build of mailman 2.1.16 (built under CentOS 5 x84_64)
as an upgrade over the stock 2.1.9 that comes with CentOS 5 and I am getting
this error. What should I be looking for? 

-- 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Disappearing messages

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/30/2014 09:10 AM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> 
> And just to be clear here, I don't believe that it's possible for a
> cooperating ESP to make rejection a per-user choice either.  Consider an
> email with multiple recipients served by the same SMTP server.  Because
> of the way SMTP works, all recipients have to be approved or rejected
> _before_ the From body header is received, so instead of rejecting a
> post during the initial transaction with the list server, the post must
> be accepted and then a NDR sent back from the MDA or some other
> component.


Only partially correct.

You can reject based on RCPT TO not being an acceptable address, but as
you say, for DMARC you have to wait until the end of DATA because you
have to have the entire message before you can check the DKIM sig and
the From: alignment.

But you do not have to accept at this point. You can still reject in
response to end of DATA, but if there were multiple RCPT TO addresses,
you can't now go back and just reject some of them.


> I'm not sure how Mailman handles this - if it counts a bounce if the
> initial SMTP transaction is successful but subsequently receives a NDR
> for a recipient address from some other component of the recipient's
> mail system.


Mailman scores bounces both for recipients rejected at SMTP time and for
recognized DSNs (NDRs) later received. That's why the posts from Maiman
have envelope from LISTNAME-bounces (+ possible VERP).

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Disappearing messages

[Lindsay Haisley]

On Wed, 2014-04-30 at 07:22 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 04/30/2014 05:53 AM, Robert P. Schwartz wrote:
> >>From some mailing list, the yahoo user's are getting the messages.
> > Obviously, there are some setting that they did that other's not have.  What
> > could it be?
> 
> 
> It is not a Yahoo user's setting. They can't control it.

And just to be clear here, I don't believe that it's possible for a
cooperating ESP to make rejection a per-user choice either.  Consider an
email with multiple recipients served by the same SMTP server.  Because
of the way SMTP works, all recipients have to be approved or rejected
_before_ the From body header is received, so instead of rejecting a
post during the initial transaction with the list server, the post must
be accepted and then a NDR sent back from the MDA or some other
component.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on this.  I know that this is an issue
with our mail server here when any kind of per-user content filtering is
applied to inbound email.

I'm not sure how Mailman handles this - if it counts a bounce if the
initial SMTP transaction is successful but subsequently receives a NDR
for a recipient address from some other component of the recipient's
mail system.
> 
-- 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] 'Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender' error when using an e-mail from a domain co-hosted with the one used for Mailman lists

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/30/2014 04:08 AM, Jacques Setton wrote:
> 
> To illustrate this, here is the related case set-up :
> - domain.net and domain.org are co-resident on the same host VPS12345,
> - domain.org is the one we use for mailman lists - link :
> http://lists.domain.org/mailman/listinfo,
> - we get no mail rejection when using the account na...@domain.net with a
> list created on 'lists.domain.org' (after the previous fix), 
> - we get an 'Unknown User' mail rejection when using the na...@domain.org
> with a list created on 'lists.domain.org' (new problem observed).
> 
> The kind of rejection error notification we then get is depicted thereafter
> :


What you posted doesn't help. What is needed is the relevant Postfix log
messages, but based on your prior issue, I'm sure that *this* massage is
being relayed via the 'dovecot LDA rather than Postfix's 'local' LDA.


> Is there another Postfix parameter which govern the behavior of local
> 'unix:passwd.byname' versus 'virtual-mailman' type email accounts defined on
> the SAME DOMAIN as the one specifically used for Mailman ?


So the issue appears to be that na...@domain.org is not a real address,
but only a virtual one. I.e. mane2 is not in the unix passwd file.


> If it turns out that there is a restriction on such particular usage, we
> could live with it by not using same domain-based email addresses as the one
> devoted to Mailman.


Do you know why your Postfix configuration has

virtual_transport = dovecot

If you don't need that, I think removing it will solve this, but it is
likely required for dome other functionality having to do with your
virtual_mailbox_domains.

In any case, this is a Postfix issue. The only Mailman involvement is
that for mail to a Mailman list from *some* addresses, the 'dovecot'
relay is used rather than the 'local'

You could try appending $virtual_mailbox_maps to local_recipient_maps,
but that would probably have the same effect as removing
virtual_transport = dovecot.


> Many thanks for any hint regarding such reported behavior...


I'm sure there are people much more knowledgeable about Postfix than I,
and those people probably are reachable through Postfix support resources.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Q : Is there a possibility to localize / customize the standard Mailman lists home page / UI look ?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/30/2014 04:35 AM, Jacques Setton wrote:
> Currently, when choosing a specific local language (French in our case) for
> Mailman' lists user interface, I have noticed that the standard home page
> (for example the one depicted by 'lists.domain.org/mailman/listinfo')
> remains in the English language. Would there be a possibility to localize
> that page as well ? 


Set

DEFAULT_SERVER_LANGUAGE = 'fr'

in mm_cfg.py.


> While being on this topic, I'd like also to know if it is possible to
> customize the general look & feel of the display UI say, at the minimum,
> eventually replace or add a custom logo at the level of the Mailman/Python
> logos appearing at the bottom of each page ?


See Mailman/htmlformat.py, in particular the section beginning with

# Logo constants

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Excessive bounces to list members on my list

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/30/2014 07:20 AM, Larry Kuenning wrote:
> 
> I think the reason Yahoo groups don't have to rewrite the From line is
> that even if the original sender uses an @yahoo address, passing the
> message through a Yahoo groups server won't break the DMARC tests
> because it's still a yahoo server and therefore "aligns" with the
> original From address.  Or so I understand it:  Mark or somebody correct
> me if I'm wrong?


More or less correct. Yahoo groups DKIM signs with d=yahoogroups.com, so
that doesn't align with the sender's From: @yahoo.com, but as I noted in
another reply, they set the envelope sender to
...@returns.groups.yahoo.com and that passes SPF and does align.


> But now I wonder what happens if a user with an @aol address posts to a
> Yahoo group.  Will it run afoul of AOL's p=reject policy?  If I still
> had an AOL address I'd be tempted to try this just to see what happens.


I will test this when I get time.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Excessive bounces to list members on my list

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/30/2014 06:20 AM, Larry Finch wrote:
> 
> On Apr 30, 2014, at 5:11 AM, Peter Shute  wrote:
>>
>> Is yahoo doing the same thing for yahoo groups?
>>
> 
> Yahoo doesn’t have to. Mail from a Yahoo group already has a Yahoo domain in 
> the From field - the group address.


To be more precise, mail from yahoo groups has an envelope sender
@returns.groups.yahoo.com so it passes SPF with a domain aligned with a
yahoo.com From:.

I don't know what Yahoo groups is doing with mail From: aol.com or
others with p=reject. A subject for further testing ...

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Excessive bounces to list members on my list

[Larry Kuenning]

On 4/30/2014 9:20 AM, Larry Finch wrote:


They are also rewriting From: headers in outgoing googlegroups posts
whose original From: address is in a domain with DMARC p=reject.


Is yahoo doing the same thing for yahoo groups?


Yahoo doesn’t have to. Mail from a Yahoo group already has a Yahoo domain in 
the From field - the group address.


Yahoo doesn't have to, but not for that reason.  Yahoo groups don't put 
the Yahoo domain into the From line.  They leave the original sender's 
address there (whether it's a Yahoo address or not).  Or at least that's 
how they were handling it the last time anyone posted to a Yahoo group 
I'm subscribed to, though that was before this DMARC p=reject business 
started.


I think the reason Yahoo groups don't have to rewrite the From line is 
that even if the original sender uses an @yahoo address, passing the 
message through a Yahoo groups server won't break the DMARC tests 
because it's still a yahoo server and therefore "aligns" with the 
original From address.  Or so I understand it:  Mark or somebody correct 
me if I'm wrong?


But now I wonder what happens if a user with an @aol address posts to a 
Yahoo group.  Will it run afoul of AOL's p=reject policy?  If I still 
had an AOL address I'd be tempted to try this just to see what happens.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Disappearing messages

[Larry Finch]

On Apr 30, 2014, at 8:53 AM, Robert P. Schwartz  wrote:

> From some mailing list, the yahoo user's are getting the messages.
> Obviously, there are some setting that they did that other's not have.  What
> could it be?
> 

You need to clarify here. Yahoo users will get email posted from non-Yahoo and 
non-AOL addresses unless the sender’s domain has DMARC p=reject set. Most ISPs 
do not. Yahoo users will NOT get mail from other Yahoo users or AOL users, 
unless the list software rewrites the From field to reflect the domain of the 
list server (rather than the original sender). L-Soft has just released a patch 
for listserv that does this for v16.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Disappearing messages

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/30/2014 05:50 AM, Robert P. Schwartz wrote:
> I am having a same problem with Yahoo messages.  If I send a message from my
> Yahoo account and have "ack" set for the users, I get the acknowledgment
> that the message was sent but not the actual message.  This has been
> happening for about the last month.


See the FAQ at .

If you have a lot of time go to

and read threads with DMARC, yahoo or Excessive bounces in the subject.

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Disappearing messages

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/30/2014 05:53 AM, Robert P. Schwartz wrote:
>>From some mailing list, the yahoo user's are getting the messages.
> Obviously, there are some setting that they did that other's not have.  What
> could it be?


It is not a Yahoo user's setting. They can't control it.

Yahoo users will receive posts From: users with addresses not at
(currently) yahoo.com or aol.com. Many users in domains which honor
Yahoo's and AOL's DMARC p=reject, which is more than just Yahoo and AOL,
will not receive posts From: yahoo.com or aol.com.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Excessive bounces to list members on my list

[Larry Finch]

On Apr 29, 2014, at 4:17 PM, Craig Gaevert  wrote:

> It has been my experience that Yahoo is handling email for pacbell.net, 
> sbcglobal.net, hotmail, and yes even Comcast, as well as a business domain 
> hosted through sbcglobal - all based on a review of the bounce notices I’ve 
> received for the lists I manage. Other info - my lists are hosted at 
> Sonic.net which is still running 2.1.11. I’m a newb here, mostly trying to 
> track what’s going on with the DMARC issues.
> 
> 
You need to be a little careful here. Yahoo does manage mail for other domains, 
but I don’t think the ones you listed are among them. However, those domains DO 
respect the “reject” status in Yahoo’s DMARC record. This means that messages 
from Yahoo (and now AOL) will be blocked by those domains, but mail from those 
domains will not be blocked.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Disappearing messages

[Robert P. Schwartz]

>From some mailing list, the yahoo user's are getting the messages.
Obviously, there are some setting that they did that other's not have.  What
could it be?



-Original Message-
From: Mailman-Users
[mailto:mailman-users-bounces+rpschwar=knology@python.org] On Behalf Of
Stephen J. Turnbull
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 3:50 AM
To: sherwin
Cc: mailman-users@python.org
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Disappearing messages

sherwin writes:

 > I run a forum on Ibiblio and am seeing a strange phenomenon
 > lately.

It's not a phenomenon, it's a policy of Yahoo! and AOL.  The other
services' users are "collateral damage", as the US DoD likes to say.

 > I would like to know what is happening to these missing messages that do 
 > not show up

For pointers to the full dope:

http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/msg64211.html

 > in Inbox's, Spam Folders, or Trash Folders.  Do I tell our AOL users to 
 > stop sending messages to our forum?

I can't *recommend* that as it's not really the users' fault (BTW, you'd
also need to censor the Yahoo! users), but I'd love to see you do it. :-|

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Version: 2013.0.3469 / Virus Database: 3722/7414 - Release Date: 04/29/14

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[Mailman-Users] email to specific account

[Robert P. Schwartz]

I am a member of multiple email lists from different sources and I have
multiple email addresses set up.  It appears that emails from my yahoo.com
account are not receiving messages.  I have checked with other and it
appears that if they use yahoo, they are not getting the email either.  It
happens with multiple email lists from totally different sources.  There is
one source I know of the their yahoo users are getting the emails.  It there
a setting I can check or somewhere else I can look at?

 

Robert P. Schwartz

206 Cedar Pond Drive

Madison, AL 35757

 

Phone: 256.830.2933

Cell:  256.509.2981

 

E-mail:  rpsch...@knology.net

 

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Excessive bounces to list members on my list

[Robert Heller]

At Tue, 29 Apr 2014 16:32:18 -0700 Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> 
> On 04/29/2014 01:25 PM, Joseph Brennan wrote:
> > 
> > I think Gmail is doing the same.  It's a touch evil to make mail from
> > aol and yahoo less deliverable than your own... but it's what they asked
> > for.
> 
> 
> Gmail is honoring DMARC p=reject, but they have some magic for not
> applying it to mail from some lists. How they recognize list mail is
> probably a trade secret.

Actually probably not.  I think the giveaway is the presense of the various 
list specific headers (X-Mailman-Version:, List-Id:, List-Unsubscribe:, 
List-Archive:, List-Post:, List-Help:, and List-Subscribe:).  In other words, 
they are using a *smart* filtering program, and not some dumb clueless test.

> 
> They are also rewriting From: headers in outgoing googlegroups posts
> whose original From: address is in a domain with DMARC p=reject.
> 

-- 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Disappearing messages

[Robert P. Schwartz]

I am having a same problem with Yahoo messages.  If I send a message from my
Yahoo account and have "ack" set for the users, I get the acknowledgment
that the message was sent but not the actual message.  This has been
happening for about the last month.


-Original Message-
From: Mailman-Users
[mailto:mailman-users-bounces+rpschwar=knology@python.org] On Behalf Of
sherwin
Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 1:57 AM
To: mailman-users@python.org
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Disappearing messages

Hi,

I run a forum on Ibiblio and am seeing a strange phenomenon lately. Messages
are dropping off for certain users like AT&T, sbcglobal, etc. Gmail 
users are seeing
these messages as Spam, but others are seeing nothing.  Strangely, these 
messages
do appear in the Archives of Ibiblio.  Many of these messages are sent 
from AOL
subscribers and Yahoo.  I am being told that AOL and Yahoo are appending 
certain
things to their headers which makes them incompatible with standard 
practices.
Whatever, Ibiblio seems to accept these messages and attempts to send 
them out.
They either wind up in Spam folders or never appear, at all.

Unfortunately, if these messages are being filtered by some server, some 
of our users
are not aware that they were even sent and no error messages are generated.

I would like to know what is happening to these missing messages that do 
not show up
in Inbox's, Spam Folders, or Trash Folders.  Do I tell our AOL users to 
stop sending
messages to our forum?

 Sherwin Dubren
 Administrator of Midfex Forum on Ibiblio
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Excessive bounces to list members on my list

[Robert Heller]

At Mon, 28 Apr 2014 16:09:43 -0400 (EDT) "Gregori Kurtzman, DDS" 
 wrote:

> 
> Need some insight and help. I have recently taken over a list that is using
> mailman v 2.1.14. And we are getting a lot of bounce notices regarding
> members and de-activation's of their subscriptions due to this. In the
> bounce notices I get as list manager I see the following 'This message
> failed DMARC Evaluation" Also members are complaining they see no messages
> coming from the list or even their own posts.

I too have recently been having this problem with mailman 2.1.9 (stock version 
under CentOS 5).  I belive it is due to the sort of measures AOL, Yahoo, and 
Hotmail have undertaken to deal with spam and phishing E-Mails.  I *think* you 
need to upgrade to mailman 2.1.16 or later and then make use of DKIM and the 
the from_as_list feature of mailman 2.1.16.

> 
> 
> Can any one guide me on this?
> Greg
> 
> 
> Gregori M. Kurtzman, DDS, MAGD, FPFA, FACD, FADI, DICOI, DADIA 
> General Practitioner 
> Leisure World Plaza Professional Building 
> 3801 International Drive, Suite 102 
> Silver Spring, MD 20906 
> 301-598-3500 
> 301-598-9046 (fax)
> email: drimpla...@aol.com
> www.maryland-implants.com
> 
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>   
>   

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Excessive bounces to list members on my list

[Robert Heller]

At Tue, 29 Apr 2014 15:55:21 -0400 Conrad G T Yoder  
wrote:

> 
> On Apr 29, 2014, at 1:04 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull  wrote:
> 
> > Large services
> > like Yahoo, AOL, and Hotmail seem to be respecting the policy despite
> > the adverse effect on their users (ie, getting unsubscribed).
> 
> Pretty sure Hotmail has not set their dmarc record to reject. Where are you
> seeing this?


When a @yahoo.com or @aol.com user posts something, @yahoo.com, @aol.com, 
@netscape.net, @hotmail.com and @live.com users get bounces and eventually get 
their subscriptions disabled.  I don't think when someone *from* @hotmail.com 
causes problems.  In the case of my list, there are *many* people with Yahoo 
addresses, so there are often *multiple* people posting from Yahoo addresses 
and they accumulate.



> 
> -Conrad
> 
> --
> Be safe - be suspicious.
> 
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>   
> 

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Excessive bounces to list members on my list

[Larry Finch]

On Apr 30, 2014, at 5:11 AM, Peter Shute  wrote:

>> On 30 Apr 2014, at 9:32 am, "Mark Sapiro"  wrote:
>> 
>> They are also rewriting From: headers in outgoing googlegroups posts
>> whose original From: address is in a domain with DMARC p=reject.
> 
> Is yahoo doing the same thing for yahoo groups?
> 

Yahoo doesn’t have to. Mail from a Yahoo group already has a Yahoo domain in 
the From field - the group address.

best regards,
Larry

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Excessive bounces to list members on my list

[Craig Gaevert]

It has been my experience that Yahoo is handling email for pacbell.net, 
sbcglobal.net, hotmail, and yes even Comcast, as well as a business domain 
hosted through sbcglobal - all based on a review of the bounce notices I’ve 
received for the lists I manage. Other info - my lists are hosted at Sonic.net 
which is still running 2.1.11. I’m a newb here, mostly trying to track what’s 
going on with the DMARC issues.


Craig Gaevert
srcc-c-ow...@lists.sonic.net



On 29 Apr 2014, at 12:55 , Conrad G T Yoder  wrote:

> On Apr 29, 2014, at 1:04 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull  wrote:
> 
>> Large services
>> like Yahoo, AOL, and Hotmail seem to be respecting the policy despite
>> the adverse effect on their users (ie, getting unsubscribed).
> 
> Pretty sure Hotmail has not set their dmarc record to reject.  Where are you 
> seeing this?
> 
> -Conrad
> 
> --
> Be safe - be suspicious.
> 
> --
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> 

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[Mailman-Users] Q : Is there a possibility to localize / customize the standard Mailman lists home page / UI look ?

[Jacques Setton]

Currently, when choosing a specific local language (French in our case) for
Mailman' lists user interface, I have noticed that the standard home page
(for example the one depicted by 'lists.domain.org/mailman/listinfo')
remains in the English language. Would there be a possibility to localize
that page as well ? 

 

While being on this topic, I'd like also to know if it is possible to
customize the general look & feel of the display UI say, at the minimum,
eventually replace or add a custom logo at the level of the Mailman/Python
logos appearing at the bottom of each page ?

 

Many thanks for any guidance on such localization/customization aspect of
the UI.

 

- - - 

 

Jacques Setton

jset...@wacyast.com 

 

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Re: [Mailman-Users] 'Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender' error when using an e-mail from a domain co-hosted with the one used for Mailman lists

[Jacques Setton]

Following on my last below post, I'd wish to report a small additional
problem that I encountered after applying the '$alias_maps' fix to the
'local_recipient_maps' parameter.

Whereas it effectively solved the 'Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender'
issue when using a mail account from say  virtual 'domain.net' co-hosted
with say virtual 'domain.org' on the same physical VPS, it didn't resolve it
when using a mail account from the same domain attributed to Mailman (as
declared in the 'mm_cf.py' file)...

To illustrate this, here is the related case set-up :
- domain.net and domain.org are co-resident on the same host VPS12345,
- domain.org is the one we use for mailman lists - link :
http://lists.domain.org/mailman/listinfo,
- we get no mail rejection when using the account na...@domain.net with a
list created on 'lists.domain.org' (after the previous fix), 
- we get an 'Unknown User' mail rejection when using the na...@domain.org
with a list created on 'lists.domain.org' (new problem observed).

The kind of rejection error notification we then get is depicted thereafter
:

*** POST SUBMISSION TO TESTLIST ***
From : Admin Lists DomainORG [mailto:admin-li...@domain.org] 
Sent : tuesday 29 april 2014 20:11
To : testl...@domain.org 
Subject : < Some topic line... >
< Some content to publication on the TestList list... >

*** UNDELIVERED MAIL NOTIFICATION RESPONSE ***
From : MAILER-DAEMON (Mail Delivery System) [mailto:MAILER-DAEMON
(Mail Delivery System)] 
Sent : tuesday 29 april 2014 20:11
To : admin-li...@domain.org
Subject : Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender
This is the mail system at host vps12345.ovh.net.
I'm sorry to have to inform you that your message could not be
delivered to one or more recipients. It's attached below.
For further assistance, please send mail to postmaster.
If you do so, please include this problem report. You can delete
your own text from the attached returned message.
The mail system
< testl...@domain.org > : user unknown
_

Is there another Postfix parameter which govern the behavior of local
'unix:passwd.byname' versus 'virtual-mailman' type email accounts defined on
the SAME DOMAIN as the one specifically used for Mailman ?

If it turns out that there is a restriction on such particular usage, we
could live with it by not using same domain-based email addresses as the one
devoted to Mailman.

Many thanks for any hint regarding such reported behavior...

- - - 

 Jacques Setton
 jset...@waycast.com 


-Message d'origine-
De : Jacques Setton [mailto:jset...@waycast.com] 
Envoyé : dimanche 27 avril 2014 21:05
À : 'Mark Sapiro'
Cc : 'mailman-users@python.org'
Objet : RE: [Mailman-Users] 'Undelivered Mail Returned to Sender' error when
using an e-mail from a domain co-hosted with the one used for Mailman lists

>> By default, local_recipient_maps includes $alias_maps, and I *think* it
should in your case. 
>> Why this lack would cause Postfix to use the virtual_transport rather 
>> than local in just this one case is really a question for 
>> postfix-us...@postfix.org or some other Postfix resource, but you 
>> might try  local_recipient_maps = unix:passwd.byname $alias_maps

Very well spotted ! This is indeed the source of the mail rejection behavior
that I have reported on when using a locally-hosted mail accounts on the
same VPS which also hosts Mailman.

The 'postconf -d' command output shows the following default setting :  
 alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases, nis:mail.aliases
 local_recipient_maps = proxy:unix:passwd.byname $alias_maps

The 'postconf -n' command output shows the following (re)specified setting :

 alias_maps = hash:/etc/aliases, hash:/etc/mailman/aliases
 local_recipient_maps = unix:passwd.byname

For some unclear reason, in the distribution we are using the '$allias_maps'
parameter had been removed from the 'local_recipient_maps' setting in the
Postfix 'main.cf' configuration file.

After redefining the line as "local_recipient_maps = unix:passwd.byname
$alias_maps" and doing a few test, it appears that we can now successfully
use local mail accounts in relation with Mailman.

>> or  simply removing that line from main.cf and see if that helps.

No need to do that as the above corrective action did fully resolve the
problem. 
Many thanks, Mark, for your very effective guidance on this issue ! 

- - - 

 Jacques Setton
 jset...@waycast.com 

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Excessive bounces to list members on my list

[Peter Shute]

> On 30 Apr 2014, at 9:32 am, "Mark Sapiro"  wrote:
> 
> They are also rewriting From: headers in outgoing googlegroups posts
> whose original From: address is in a domain with DMARC p=reject.

Is yahoo doing the same thing for yahoo groups?

Peter Shute
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[Mailman-Users] Disappearing messages

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

sherwin writes:

 > I run a forum on Ibiblio and am seeing a strange phenomenon
 > lately.

It's not a phenomenon, it's a policy of Yahoo! and AOL.  The other
services' users are "collateral damage", as the US DoD likes to say.

 > I would like to know what is happening to these missing messages that do 
 > not show up

For pointers to the full dope:

http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/msg64211.html

 > in Inbox's, Spam Folders, or Trash Folders.  Do I tell our AOL users to 
 > stop sending messages to our forum?

I can't *recommend* that as it's not really the users' fault (BTW, you'd
also need to censor the Yahoo! users), but I'd love to see you do it. :-|

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[Mailman-Users] Disappearing messages

[sherwin]

Hi,

I run a forum on Ibiblio and am seeing a strange phenomenon lately. Messages
are dropping off for certain users like AT&T, sbcglobal, etc. Gmail 
users are seeing
these messages as Spam, but others are seeing nothing.  Strangely, these 
messages
do appear in the Archives of Ibiblio.  Many of these messages are sent 
from AOL
subscribers and Yahoo.  I am being told that AOL and Yahoo are appending 
certain
things to their headers which makes them incompatible with standard 
practices.
Whatever, Ibiblio seems to accept these messages and attempts to send 
them out.

They either wind up in Spam folders or never appear, at all.

Unfortunately, if these messages are being filtered by some server, some 
of our users

are not aware that they were even sent and no error messages are generated.

I would like to know what is happening to these missing messages that do 
not show up
in Inbox's, Spam Folders, or Trash Folders.  Do I tell our AOL users to 
stop sending

messages to our forum?

Sherwin Dubren
Administrator of Midfex Forum on Ibiblio
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