Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Richard Damon writes:

 > Thunderbird isn't quite like that, but when I reply to a message from 
 > the list I am given 3 options:
 > 
 > Reply
 > Reply All
 > Reply to List
 > 
 > The Reply to List option is made available by the List-Post header I 
 > believe.

I don't understand why they do it this way.  If I were writing an MUA,
I'd make each addressee a button which replies to them only.[1]  For the
explicit reply button, I'd automatically put the list-post and author
in To:, provide an obvious delete button on each (as Gmail does), and
provide an "add other addressees" button in Cc:.

As it happens, on XEmacs lists about half the people who are most
likely to end up in "reply-all" cc lists *want* to be cc'd because
their filters put general list traffic in a folder they read much less
frequently, but replies to their own posts they want to read
immediately, so I've never coded it.

It's a very difficult UI/UX problem, I think.


Footnotes: 
[1]  The alternative use for active regions over an addressee would be
to provide contact list information, but I would do that in a tooltip.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Lindsay Haisley writes:

 > I never quite understood all the fuss about top posting.

Usenet over UUCP via 300 baud modems on backbone servers with 5MB
disks.[1]

 > The reason behind quoting in the first place is to provide context
 > for a reply, but some MUAs make it very difficult to not top post.

Friends don't let friends 

Footnotes: 
[1]  I think I'm exaggerating here, but not by more than two orders of
magnitude.  It really did matter then.



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[Mailman-Users] CC pruning: does it work?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > There is one case with Mailman lists where [to vs. cc] matters, at
 > least in MM 2.1, but I think MM 3 too.
 > 
 > If a list member has 'avoid dups' set and that member is a Cc: addressee
 > of a post, that member will not receive the post from the list AND that
 > member's address will be removed from the Cc: list of the post delivered
 > to the other list members.
 > 
 > The removal is to prevent Cc: lists from growing too large in threads
 > with many participants.

Does this actually work?  In practice, I get the feeling that a large
minority at least unsets "nodupes".  XEmacs lists default to nodupes,
but about 1/3 of users have them unset, and a quick eyeball suggests
that over 95% of the ones with nodupes set have never posted or been
cc'd on the list.

I would say that the effect that such members get many fewer automatic
CCs from reply-all would be the main reason for the removal.  Even if
it doesn't work this is the right thing to do.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

jdd writes:
 > Le 20/03/2015 01:45, Mark Sapiro a écrit :
 > 
 > > This is a major hot-button issue for me, The above is only scratching
 > > the surface.
 > >
 > smartphones makes things horrible, on android, selecting text for 
 > deletion is nearly impossible :-((

This is true.

On many lists I frequent, people have changed their .sig in their
smartphone to "Sent from my , very sorry about the rude
quoting." :-)  But the people I respect (eg, Guido van Rossum) often
write the apology explicitly in a large minority of their smartphone
posts when they fail to trim.

OTOH, I ditched AppleMail for the Gmail app very quickly.  That makes
it very easy to nuke the quotes (just delete the ellipsis).  I write
one sentence to summarize the point I'm replying to and then what I
have to say.  (I don't do list mail from my smartphone much, though.)

I think the best solution for most replies (unless you're in Guido's
position of leadership) is to bite the bullet and wait until you're at
a terminal to post.

Steve

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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Richard Damon]

On 3/20/15 9:52 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:

On 3/19/2015 6:47 PM, Lindsay Haisley  wrote:

In many mail user agents, when you press the "Reply" button the program
will analyze the headers, determine that the post being replied to came
from a list and offer a "Reply to List" option in addition to a simple
reply, which generally goes privately to the original poster.

I'd really like to know which email user agents really do this.

In my experience, none of the ones used by 99+% of the worlds population
actually use do this.

Thunderbird isn't quite like that, but when I reply to a message from 
the list I am given 3 options:


Reply
Reply All
Reply to List

The Reply to List option is made available by the List-Post header I 
believe.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Lindsay Haisley]

On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 14:37 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> > Only superficially.  The point is that both of these MUAs are
> list-aware
> > and offer options appropriately.
> 
> No, the point is you apparently can't simply acknowledge that you
> mis-spoke/made a mistake.

Tanstaafl, it it will make you happy, I _officially_ acknowledge that I
made a mistake/mis-spoke, and I apologize to you, and to anyone else who
was confused or annoyed by what I said!

I still think you pretty much missed my point.

Can we move on now?
> 
-- 
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FMP Computer Services |is the certainty of change"
512-259-1190  |
http://www.fmp.com| - Ancient wisdom, all cultures

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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Tanstaafl]

On 3/20/2015 11:09 AM, Lindsay Haisley  wrote:
> On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 10:49 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
>> You said "In many mail user agents, when you press the "Reply" button
>> the program will analyze the headers, determine that the post being
>> replied to came from a list and offer a "Reply to List" option..."

> This is the way Evolution works.

Ok, but my point is, one MUA with a tiny user base is very far from
'many mail user agents'. So, again - looks like you mis-spoke. Not a
crime, I do it sometimes, but it is annoying when someone argues nits
just to avoid simply acknowledging a mistake.

> In T-bird there's a pane with message headers and action buttons below
> the index and above the preview pane.  If a list message is highlighted
> in the index, there's a "Reply List" button presented right next to the
> "Reply" button.  If a post isn't a list post, this button is absent.
> This is even simpler than what Evolution does.

The Reply List button is only there if you put it there, unless recent
updates have started putting it there by default (it never was before).

> If T-bird and Evolution are NOT looking at headers and offering an
> appropriate list reply option, then how are they determining when to
> display this button, and when not to?

Again, my point is this doesn't happen *when you click the REPLY button*
- you said (not implied, not hinted, you said it outright) that clicking
'the Reply button' (only the 'normal' Reply button can be inferred in
this context) initiated some kind of testing of the headers to try to
guess what kind of Reply would be most appropriate.

Are you saying that this is indeed what Evolution does? It only has one
'Reply' button  that is similar to Thunderbird 'Smart Reply' button?

> Only superficially.  The point is that both of these MUAs are list-aware
> and offer options appropriately.

No, the point is you apparently can't simply acknowledge that you
mis-spoke/made a mistake.

And in Thunderbird, nothing is 'offered' unless you take some kind of
affirmative action (like adding the 'Reply List' button to the toolbar
and understanding how it works), then, the only thing that happens is
the Reply List button is either available or not, depending on the List
headers (and it doesn't work with all lists either)...
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Re: [Mailman-Users] duplicates

[Marco Stoecker]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 03/20/2015 05:12 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 03/20/2015 08:42 AM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Mar 18 22:16:43 hostname postfix/smtpd[9815]: 6D42445B: 
>> client=localhost[::1] Mar 18 22:16:43 hostname
>> postfix/cleanup[9818]: 6D42445B: 
>> message-id=<5509eb1c.8050...@stoecker-family.de>
> 
> 
> OK. This message was received from something on localhost (IPv6
> [::1] at 22:16:43 and delivered to all the Mailman list
> recipients.
> 
> 

[snipped]

>> Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/qmgr[3081]: 6D42445B: removed
>> 
>> and for grep 4ACCAD07:
>> 
>> Mar 18 22:16:46 hostname postfix/smtpd[9815]: 4ACCAD07: 
>> client=localhost[::1] Mar 18 22:16:46 hostname
>> postfix/cleanup[9818]: 4ACCAD07: 
>> message-id=<5509eb1c.8050...@stoecker-family.de>
> 
> 
> And then 3 seconds later something on the same host delivered a
> second copy to Postfix which delivered that to the lists also.

[snipped]

> 
> So this duplication occurred before Mailman and even before
> Postfix delivering to Mailman. It could be anything. You could try
> grepping the log for the Message-ID and see if that gives a clue.
> 
> Look for an original arrival being passed to some process that
> returns two copies.

I also use clamav-milter and spamassassin-milter together with
postfix, maybe ones of these is the root cause. Thx for your detailed
help. I think for Mailman this is solved, cause it has nothing to do
with it.

BR
Marco
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Re: [Mailman-Users] reject notice to non-member

[Mark Sapiro]

On 03/20/2015 07:55 AM, Danil Smirnov wrote:
> 
> Probably it would be better to add feature request to add filed for
> custom rejecting reason
> on Admindb page than consider this as a bug?...


If you go to the detail of a message in the admindb interface (click the
[n] link or the 'view all messages from ...' link in the summary view),
you can put in any reject reason you like in the 'If you reject this
post, please explain (optional):' box.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] duplicates

[Mark Sapiro]

On 03/20/2015 08:42 AM, Marco Stoecker wrote:

> 
>> What are the rest of the postfix log messages from 'grep 6D42445B'
>> and 'grep 4ACCAD07' of the log file?
> 
> and here it comes...
> 
> for grep 6D42445B:
> 
> Mar 18 22:16:43 hostname postfix/smtpd[9815]: 6D42445B:
> client=localhost[::1]
> Mar 18 22:16:43 hostname postfix/cleanup[9818]: 6D42445B:
> message-id=<5509eb1c.8050...@stoecker-family.de>


OK. This message was received from something on localhost (IPv6 [::1] at
22:16:43 and delivered to all the Mailman list recipients.


> Mar 18 22:16:46 hostname postfix/qmgr[3081]: 6D42445B:
> from=, size=6653, nrcpt=5 (queue active)
> Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9821]: 6D42445B:
> to=, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.13/0/0.98,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listA)
> Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9825]: 6D42445B:
> to=, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.19/0/0.93,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listB)
> Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9827]: 6D42445B:
> to=, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.33/0/0.81,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listC)
> Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9820]: 6D42445B:
> to=, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.11/0/1,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listD)
> Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9823]: 6D42445B:
> to=, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.17/0/0.98,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listE)
> Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/qmgr[3081]: 6D42445B: removed
> 
> and for grep 4ACCAD07:
> 
> Mar 18 22:16:46 hostname postfix/smtpd[9815]: 4ACCAD07:
> client=localhost[::1]
> Mar 18 22:16:46 hostname postfix/cleanup[9818]: 4ACCAD07:
> message-id=<5509eb1c.8050...@stoecker-family.de>


And then 3 seconds later something on the same host delivered a second
copy to Postfix which delivered that to the lists also.


> Mar 18 22:16:48 hostname postfix/qmgr[3081]: 4ACCAD07:
> from=, size=6652, nrcpt=5 (queue active)
> Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9827]: 4ACCAD07:
> to=, relay=local, delay=2.9, delays=1.9/0.01/0/1,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listB)
> Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9825]: 4ACCAD07:
> to=, relay=local, delay=2.9, delays=1.9/0.01/0/1,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listC)
> Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9821]: 4ACCAD07:
> to=, relay=local, delay=3, delays=1.9/0/0/1,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listD)
> Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9820]: 4ACCAD07:
> to=, relay=local, delay=3, delays=1.9/0.01/0/1,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listE)
> Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9823]: 4ACCAD07:
> to=, relay=local, delay=3, delays=1.9/0/0/1,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listA)
> Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/qmgr[3081]: 4ACCAD07: removed


So this duplication occurred before Mailman and even before Postfix
delivering to Mailman. It could be anything. You could try grepping the
log for the Message-ID and see if that gives a clue.

Look for an original arrival being passed to some process that returns
two copies.

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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Re: [Mailman-Users] duplicates

[Marco Stoecker]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

> It is somewhere between your mail client and Postfix on the
> Mailman server. It's not Mailman. Are you certain you didn't just
> send the message twice?

I'm very sure because in the outbox it appears only ones. And I copied
the headers again, just to make sure I do not made a mistake the first
time. But again no difference with commandline comannd 'diff'. That is
very curious :-(

> 
> What are the rest of the postfix log messages from 'grep 6D42445B'
> and 'grep 4ACCAD07' of the log file?

and here it comes...

for grep 6D42445B:

Mar 18 22:16:43 hostname postfix/smtpd[9815]: 6D42445B:
client=localhost[::1]
Mar 18 22:16:43 hostname postfix/cleanup[9818]: 6D42445B:
message-id=<5509eb1c.8050...@stoecker-family.de>
Mar 18 22:16:46 hostname postfix/qmgr[3081]: 6D42445B:
from=, size=6653, nrcpt=5 (queue active)
Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9821]: 6D42445B:
to=, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.13/0/0.98,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listA)
Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9825]: 6D42445B:
to=, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.19/0/0.93,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listB)
Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9827]: 6D42445B:
to=, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.33/0/0.81,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listC)
Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9820]: 6D42445B:
to=, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.11/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listD)
Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9823]: 6D42445B:
to=, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.17/0/0.98,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listE)
Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/qmgr[3081]: 6D42445B: removed

and for grep 4ACCAD07:

Mar 18 22:16:46 hostname postfix/smtpd[9815]: 4ACCAD07:
client=localhost[::1]
Mar 18 22:16:46 hostname postfix/cleanup[9818]: 4ACCAD07:
message-id=<5509eb1c.8050...@stoecker-family.de>
Mar 18 22:16:48 hostname postfix/qmgr[3081]: 4ACCAD07:
from=, size=6652, nrcpt=5 (queue active)
Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9827]: 4ACCAD07:
to=, relay=local, delay=2.9, delays=1.9/0.01/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listB)
Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9825]: 4ACCAD07:
to=, relay=local, delay=2.9, delays=1.9/0.01/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listC)
Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9821]: 4ACCAD07:
to=, relay=local, delay=3, delays=1.9/0/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listD)
Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9820]: 4ACCAD07:
to=, relay=local, delay=3, delays=1.9/0.01/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listE)
Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9823]: 4ACCAD07:
to=, relay=local, delay=3, delays=1.9/0/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listA)
Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/qmgr[3081]: 4ACCAD07: removed

BR
Marco
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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Lindsay Haisley]

On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 10:49 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> Ummm... this is not what you said initially.
> 
> You said "In many mail user agents, when you press the "Reply" button
> the program will analyze the headers, determine that the post being
> replied to came from a list and offer a "Reply to List" option..."

This is the way Evolution works.
> 
> The 'Reply-To-List' button in Thunderbird is a completely separate
> button. Also, when you click the normal 'Reply' button, it simply
> replies, it doesn't 'analyze any headers' or present you with any
> other
> options or choices... same for every other MUA I know of.
> 

In T-bird there's a pane with message headers and action buttons below
the index and above the preview pane.  If a list message is highlighted
in the index, there's a "Reply List" button presented right next to the
"Reply" button.  If a post isn't a list post, this button is absent.
This is even simpler than what Evolution does.

If T-bird and Evolution are NOT looking at headers and offering an
appropriate list reply option, then how are they determining when to
display this button, and when not to?

I think is the "out of the box" behavior of T-bird for Linux, but I may
be misspoken on this ;)

> So, it sounds like you just sortof misspoke... ;)

Only superficially.  The point is that both of these MUAs are list-aware
and offer options appropriately.

> I don't get to use it much since I can't put it on the
> main toolbar (I do have a bug open for this)...
> 
I don't use T-bird much at all, except as a MUA to distribute FMP's
monthly invoices and statements, and it has issues which make it
problematic for this purpose unless one is careful.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] duplicates

[Mark Sapiro]

On 03/20/2015 07:32 AM, Marco Stoecker wrote:
> On 03/19/2015 11:55 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> Yes, but if the post was sent twice to each list, the Received:
>> headers of the two posts you received must differ in detail.
> 
> I copied the "View->Message Source" information in two text files and
> compared them with diff, but no difference. What does this mean?


This is very difficult to understand. At the very least, Postfix's
Received: headers should include time stamps and queue IDs which would
be different for the two messages.


> Here is the logfile mail.info (I guess its written by postfix)
> 
> Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9821]: 6D42445B:
> to=, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.13/0/0.98,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listA)
...
> Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9823]: 4ACCAD07:
> to=, relay=local, delay=3, delays=1.9/0/0/1,
> dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
> /var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listA)
> 
> So what is it, a Postfix or a Mailman issue?


It is somewhere between your mail client and Postfix on the Mailman
server. It's not Mailman. Are you certain you didn't just send the
message twice?

What are the rest of the postfix log messages from 'grep 6D42445B' and
'grep 4ACCAD07' of the log file?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] reject notice to non-member

[Danil Smirnov]

2015-03-20 16:46 GMT+02:00 Mark Sapiro :
> You can consider that it's a bug if you wish and report it at
> , but it is the intentional
> behavior.

Okay I see Mark. But there is no any other way to include reason of
rejecting to notice.

Probably it would be better to add feature request to add filed for
custom rejecting reason
on Admindb page than consider this as a bug?...

Danil
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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Tanstaafl]

On 3/20/2015 10:27 AM, Lindsay Haisley  wrote:
> My MUA of choice is Evolution, formerly from Ximian but now a gnome GPL
> project.  It has this feature, as does Thunderbird, which is fairly
> popular.  I was under the impression that Outlook and/or Outlook Express
> had it too, but I'm not sure about this.

Ummm... this is not what you said initially.

You said "In many mail user agents, when you press the "Reply" button
the program will analyze the headers, determine that the post being
replied to came from a list and offer a "Reply to List" option..."

The 'Reply-To-List' button in Thunderbird is a completely separate
button. Also, when you click the normal 'Reply' button, it simply
replies, it doesn't 'analyze any headers' or present you with any other
options or choices... same for every other MUA I know of.

So, it sounds like you just sortof misspoke... ;)

Admittedly - the 'Smart Reply' button in Thunderbird *does* actually
actively change behavior depending on whether or not the message has
list headers (and also whether or not there are multiple recipients),
but as I said, I don't get to use it much since I can't put it on the
main toolbar (I do have a bug open for this)...
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Re: [Mailman-Users] reject notice to non-member

[Mark Sapiro]

On 03/20/2015 07:08 AM, Danil Smirnov wrote:
> 
> I've set
> generic_nonmember_action to Hold
> and
> nonmember_rejection_notice to my reject notice.
> 
> But when I reject message from admindb page,
> I get general message with not mine but standard reason:
...
> Is this a bug?


You can consider that it's a bug if you wish and report it at
, but it is the intentional
behavior. nonmember_rejection_notice is intended to be sent only with an
automatic rejection due to reject_these_nonmembers or
generic_nonmember_action = Reject. It is not intended to be the default
reason for a message rejected by a moderator.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Matthew Needham]

> On Mar 20, 2015, at 03:23 AM, Peter Shute  wrote:
> 
> If you're referring to the problem of getting the selection boundaries in 
> exactly the right spot, I'm well familiar with that. So easy to get them 
> within one or two characters, but requires excessive concentration and effort 
> to get them closer. Don't know why they don't add cursor keys to help with it.

NextApp Keyboard does have arrow keys, as well as a key to switch from cursor 
movement to selection movement and other useful things missing from most soft 
keyboards. It's not nearly as easy as with a real keyboard, but it does at 
least provide the functionality.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Subject Prefixing

[A.K. Eyma]

Thanks, Richard and Mark, for responses.

Richard wrote:

I suspect that it isn't that the list added the name after the

>Re:, but that the MUA left it there and added the Re: first,
>and the list saw that the tag was already in the message and
>left it there. This keeps the subject tidy.

**I have a moderated list, so such occassions do not occur
(I would edit out any 'old' [listname] and whatever stacking
of prefixes that could happen). It is simply so that if you
post a subject line "re: topic", Mailman changes that to
"re: [listname] topic" (instead of just treating the "re:" as
part of the subject line / topic, .i.e. change it to
"[listname] re: topic" ). I now understand from Mark's
response that this is a host server setting beyond listowner
control, i.e. that the software dóes allow changing (just not
by listowners). The [Listname %d] is present in my case, but
I do not think it would be an improvement (just add confusion).
Ah well.

Off-topic: are there by chance people present who run a
Mailman list at Yale University? Who could drop me a note
offlist (it's about that horrid Targeted Attack Protection
system -- although perhaps it plagues lists at other
universities as well).

Aayko


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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Lindsay Haisley]

On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 10:07 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> > I'm sure I'm proudly in the minority, but I use Claws Mail almost 
> > exclusively
> > and it has very good reply-to-list support.
> 
> Sounds like Thunderbird's 'Smart Reply' button, which I really like, but
> don't use much because I can't place it on the regular toolbar, it is
> only available to the message preview-pane toolbar, and I rarely use those.

I don't use T-bird much, but my version here (31.5.0 for Linux) presents
a "Reply List" button when a list post is highlighted in the index.
 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] duplicates

[Marco Stoecker]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 03/19/2015 11:55 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Yes, but if the post was sent twice to each list, the Received:
> headers of the two posts you received must differ in detail.

I copied the "View->Message Source" information in two text files and
compared them with diff, but no difference. What does this mean?

> 
> Anyway, look at the MTA log and see if there were two deliveries of
> the post to each Mailman list at around 22:17.

Thx Mark

Here is the logfile mail.info (I guess its written by postfix)

Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9821]: 6D42445B:
to=, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.13/0/0.98,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listA)
Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9825]: 6D42445B:
to=, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.19/0/0.93,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listB)
Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9827]: 6D42445B:
to=, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.33/0/0.81,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listC)
Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9820]: 6D42445B:
to=, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.11/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listD)
Mar 18 22:16:47 hostname postfix/local[9823]: 6D42445B:
to=, relay=local, delay=4, delays=2.8/0.17/0/0.98,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listE)

... and a bit later

Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9827]: 4ACCAD07:
to=, relay=local, delay=2.9, delays=1.9/0.01/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listB)
Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9825]: 4ACCAD07:
to=, relay=local, delay=2.9, delays=1.9/0.01/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listC)
Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9821]: 4ACCAD07:
to=, relay=local, delay=3, delays=1.9/0/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listD)
Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9820]: 4ACCAD07:
to=, relay=local, delay=3, delays=1.9/0.01/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listE)
Mar 18 22:16:49 hostname postfix/local[9823]: 4ACCAD07:
to=, relay=local, delay=3, delays=1.9/0/0/1,
dsn=2.0.0, status=sent (delivered to command:
/var/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listA)

So what is it, a Postfix or a Mailman issue?

BR
Marco
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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Lindsay Haisley]

On Fri, 2015-03-20 at 09:52 -0400, Tanstaafl wrote:
> > In many mail user agents, when you press the "Reply" button the program
> > will analyze the headers, determine that the post being replied to came
> > from a list and offer a "Reply to List" option in addition to a simple
> > reply, which generally goes privately to the original poster.
> 
> I'd really like to know which email user agents really do this.
> 
> In my experience, none of the ones used by 99+% of the worlds population
> actually use do this.

My MUA of choice is Evolution, formerly from Ximian but now a gnome GPL
project.  It has this feature, as does Thunderbird, which is fairly
popular.  I was under the impression that Outlook and/or Outlook Express
had it too, but I'm not sure about this.

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[Mailman-Users] reject notice to non-member

[Danil Smirnov]

Hello!

I've set
generic_nonmember_action to Hold
and
nonmember_rejection_notice to my reject notice.

But when I reject message from admindb page,
I get general message with not mine but standard reason:

---
The moderator gave the
following reason for rejecting your request:

"Your message was deemed inappropriate by the moderator."
---

Is this a bug?

I'm using Mailman 2.1.18-1

Thanks,
Danil Smirnov
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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Tanstaafl]

On 3/20/2015 10:03 AM, Mark Sapiro  wrote:
> On 03/20/2015 06:52 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
>> On 3/19/2015 6:47 PM, Lindsay Haisley  wrote:
>>> In many mail user agents, when you press the "Reply" button the program
>>> will analyze the headers, determine that the post being replied to came
>>> from a list and offer a "Reply to List" option in addition to a simple
>>> reply, which generally goes privately to the original poster.

>> I'd really like to know which email user agents really do this.

> Actually, it doesn't work that way in any of the MUAs I know.

Which was my point... ;)

> But many offer a Reply List choice if the message has a List-Post:
> header. Thunderbird is one. Mutt offers an 'L' command to reply to
> the list.

Yep, use CTRL-SHIFT+L all the time on lists - but then get irritated
when someone CC's me individually, because it never fails that it is the
one sent directly that I end of trying to reply to, for which
Reply-To-List doesn't work, so I have to delete it and try again on the
duplicate from the list...
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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Tanstaafl]

On 3/20/2015 9:58 AM, Barry Warsaw  wrote:
> On Mar 20, 2015, at 09:52 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> 
>> I'd really like to know which email user agents really do this.
>>
>> In my experience, none of the ones used by 99+% of the worlds population
>> actually use do this.
> 
> I'm sure I'm proudly in the minority, but I use Claws Mail almost exclusively
> and it has very good reply-to-list support.

Sounds like Thunderbird's 'Smart Reply' button, which I really like, but
don't use much because I can't place it on the regular toolbar, it is
only available to the message preview-pane toolbar, and I rarely use those.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Mark Sapiro]

On 03/20/2015 06:52 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:
> On 3/19/2015 6:47 PM, Lindsay Haisley  wrote:
>> In many mail user agents, when you press the "Reply" button the program
>> will analyze the headers, determine that the post being replied to came
>> from a list and offer a "Reply to List" option in addition to a simple
>> reply, which generally goes privately to the original poster.
> 
> I'd really like to know which email user agents really do this.


Actually, it doesn't work that way in any of the MUAs I know. But many
offer a Reply List choice if the message has a List-Post: header.
Thunderbird is one. Mutt offers an 'L' command to reply to the list.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Barry Warsaw]

On Mar 20, 2015, at 09:52 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:

>I'd really like to know which email user agents really do this.
>
>In my experience, none of the ones used by 99+% of the worlds population
>actually use do this.

I'm sure I'm proudly in the minority, but I use Claws Mail almost exclusively
and it has very good reply-to-list support.

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Lindsay Haisley]

Sent from the Dehut/Haisley iPad
email 

> On Mar 20, 2015, at 12:29 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull  wrote:
> 
> Lindsay Haisley writes:
> 
>> As far as editing, top posting, bottom posting, etc. it's just a matter
>> of using good sense.
> 
> This list strongly prefers interlinear posting (posting
> below the relevant paragraph) if you reply to more than one point at a
> time.

Which generally makes the best sense of all, to me at least.  I do have one 
friend who finds this to be confusing, however.

I never quite understood all the fuss about top posting.  The reason behind 
quoting in the first place is to provide context for a reply, but some MUAs 
make it very difficult to not top post.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Tanstaafl]

On 3/19/2015 6:47 PM, Lindsay Haisley  wrote:
> In many mail user agents, when you press the "Reply" button the program
> will analyze the headers, determine that the post being replied to came
> from a list and offer a "Reply to List" option in addition to a simple
> reply, which generally goes privately to the original poster.

I'd really like to know which email user agents really do this.

In my experience, none of the ones used by 99+% of the worlds population
actually use do this.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Tanstaafl]

On 3/20/2015 1:29 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull  wrote:
> I don't know of anybody who prefers "bottom-posting" (and it's a bad
> idea to use that term as I've seen newbies instructed to "bottom-post"
> do exactly that, leaving 50 lines of original text and adding two
> lines at the bottom).

And I've seen many people use this exact example of 'bottom or inline
posting' in support of their argument in favor of top-posting, ignoring
arguments about trimming all irrelevant quoted text, implying that
anyone and everyone who supports bottom/inline posting wants you to
quote everything, untrimmed, and put your response below it.

It irks me no end...
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Subject Prefixing - was: The "right" way to reply to a mailing list / Re:

[Mark Sapiro]

On 03/20/2015 05:27 AM, A.K. Eyma wrote:
> While in the topic of replying, why does mailman put the
> "Re:" before the [listname]? Or rather inserts the list
> name after the Re: ? (For you send it out as "Re: The right way")
> 
>> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing
>> list


Actually, this is not Mailman in many cases. Consider that you receive a
list post. Mailman has prepended the subject_prefix so it come to you with

Subject: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

You reply and your mail client adds Re: to the beginning of the Subject:
so your reply is sent to Mailman with

Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

Now Mailman sees the Subject: already contains the prefix and does no
further modification.

Actually, that's a simplification of what Mailman does, but the result
is the same.

However, since Mailman 2.1.6 there is a site option to manipulate the
prefix so it always comes first and optionally contains a sequence
number. The site can set OLD_STYLE_PREFIXING to No in mm_cfg.py and
subject prefixes will always be added/moved to at the beginning of the
subject.

Additionally, and regardless of the site option, a list admin can
include a %d replacement in subject_prefix, e.g., set it to

[Listname %d]

and this will both force the prefix to the beginning and add a sequence
number to the prefix.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list / Re:

[Richard Damon]

On 3/20/15 8:27 AM, A.K. Eyma wrote:

Having all mail of a list come in with [listname] first in
each subject line is more tidy. In that way you would
differentiate at one glance in your inbox between

Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way

for responses that have been sent offlist to you

and

[Mailman-Users] Re: The "right" way

for responses that have been sent onlist, i.e. via the list.

[] is the list's 'stamp' on mails, why insert it after Re:?

I am making sense, really! ;))


kind regards,
Aayko Eyma

I suspect that it isn't that the list added the name after the Re:, but 
that the MUA left it there and added the Re: first, and the list saw 
that the tag was already in the message and left it there. This keeps 
the subject tidy.


If the list added a new one in front, you would get multiple list tags 
in the subject.


If the list also removed the old one, you are apt to get multiple Re: 
unless the list also removed those (which makes it harder to see which 
are replies) You will get the multiple Re: as the normal rule is add Re 
unless the message already begins with one, and your moved tag makes the 
re no longer in front, so it won't suppress adding it again.


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Richard Damon

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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list / Re:

[A.K. Eyma]

While in the topic of replying, why does mailman put the
"Re:" before the [listname]? Or rather inserts the list
name after the Re: ? (For you send it out as "Re: The right way")


Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing
list


It likely is my odd taste, and perhaps most software does it
thusly, but IMHO it looks bad optically and makes no sense. ;)

Having all mail of a list come in with [listname] first in
each subject line is more tidy. In that way you would
differentiate at one glance in your inbox between

Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way

for responses that have been sent offlist to you

and

[Mailman-Users] Re: The "right" way

for responses that have been sent onlist, i.e. via the list.

[] is the list's 'stamp' on mails, why insert it after Re:?

I am making sense, really! ;))


kind regards,
Aayko Eyma


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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Mark Sapiro]

On 03/19/2015 10:39 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Andrew Stuart writes:
> 
>  > and does it matter what other addresses go into to and cc fields.
> 
> It doesn't matter for mechanical purposes.  To, CC, and BCC are all
> routed the same way (using RCPT TO aka "envelope recipient" at the
> SMTP level), and To and CC are handled the same way by almost all
> receiving MUAs (BCC is, of course, as invisible to the receiving MUA
> as it is to the human).


There is one case with Mailman lists where it matters, at least in MM
2.1, but I think MM 3 too.

If a list member has 'avoid dups' set and that member is a Cc: addressee
of a post, that member will not receive the post from the list AND that
member's address will be removed from the Cc: list of the post delivered
to the other list members. This is not the case if the member is a To:
adressee; the member's list copy is still suppressed by 'avoid dups',
but her addresds is not removed from the To: of the post from the list.

The removal is to prevent Cc: lists from growing too large in threads
with many participants.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Duplicate message

[Mark Sapiro]

On 03/20/2015 02:59 AM, len ward wrote:
> Hi
> Every time I send a message, or anyone for that matter, a duplicate message
> is received.  The avoid duplicate button is off.  Can you help please?


If avoid duplicates is Off, you will receive duplicates if you are a
direct recipient of the message. E.g., if the message is sent To: the
list with Cc: to you, you will receive both the list copy and the direct
Cc:.

Also, duplication is sometimes due to filtering rules in your MUA
creating the duplicates.

If neither of the above explains it, we'd need to see at a minimum the
full headers from both copies to be able to say more.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Lucio Chiappetti]

On Fri, 20 Mar 2015, Andrew Stuart wrote:

When I reply to a message on a mailing list, what is the ???right??? way 
to do it?


Not sure if there is a right way for everybody. Definitely there is a way 
I like it to happen and ways which I find extremely annoying.



Should I be deleting previous thread text from my response?


For me, yes please do.


Should I be adding anything in?


Your contribution, unless it is "me too" :-)

Talking seriously. I think there are two separate matters. Knowledgeable 
users may "program" their MUA (or Mail Delivery Agent) to follow their 
preferences almost in any case. It is more difficult for a list 
administrator or a poster to force all correspondents to follow a given 
policy.


- One matter is : to whom shall the reply go ?

  Here the list administrator has the power to set a preference for the
  list (reply goes to poster, reply goes to list or eventually even
  redirect the reply or block it ... the same can occur for a single
  circular mail with appropriate header tweaking), and the user with a
  proper MUA should have the capability to reset the preference to what he
  likes.

  In most cases lists are DISCUSSION lists, so in this case MY preference
  is that the reply shall go to the list ONLY and not ALSO to the poster,
  Clever list managers properly configured will avoid sending duplicate
  replyes if sent to the list and to one list member.

  I am annoyed when this does not work and I receive two copies, but I
  just check the message id and remove one redundant copy.

  If the list is not configured for reply to list, if it is a list I use
  rarely I just do Reply All, this will compose the header to send to
  poster and list, and I remove the poster address.

  (and of course there are case in which I WANT to respond privately so
  I remove the list address)

  For lists I use regularly I have configured my Alpine MUA to use a
  role which replies just to the list.

  There are cases of lists for which a reply to the list is unwanted.
  I remember a technical list on which replies to the posts (which were
  sort of help requests) were FORBIDDEN, Replies went to the OP, which
  had the commitment at the end to post a summary.
  It worked quite nicely because members were disciplined people.

  Other cases when a reply is unwanted are circular messages, like
  conference announcements. This applies also to messages sent to
  a distribution list (not an exploder). Proper usage of headers like
  Bcc: or better Lcc: (supported by Alpine) and Reply-To should automatize
  the fact replies go only to the poster.

- The other matter is : top posting, bottom posting, no quoting,
  trimmed quoting

  Here I definitely hate top posting, but I am also annoyed by the fact
  that people quote entire messages, and so by the fact I will save to
  a folder many copies of redundant text I already had in the previous
  message.

  In this case I have instructed my mail delivery agent (procmail) to
  filter out the unwanted stuff (since I could not educate my
  correspondents)
  http://sax.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/Procmail/noquotenohtml.html

  So my preference is to either reply with my contribution, or trim the
  original text to the parts I want to reply, and interleave my answers.
  This very message is an example

  (to do multiply interleaving, i.e. reply to more posters, I have to pass
  via an external clipboard)

On Thu, 19 Mar 2015, Mark Sapiro wrote:

I do understand that in some business situations (contract negotiations, 
attorney/client communication and the like), it is useful and pretty 
much demanded that each message contain the full transcript of what went 
before, but this has no place on an email discussion list.


  I do agree that sending copy of a full correspondence is rarely a case
  for a mailing list, unless perhaps one wants to inform a new subscriber
  of past correspondence

  If the mailing list supports archiving, the easiest way to do it is to
  refer the new subscriber to the archives.

  If one wants instead to inform a new team member of past correspondence
  exchanged with other recipients outside of a mailing list, a nice way
  is to forward him a MIME digest of all past messages (with Alpine one
  can easily select a block of messages and Apply Forward ... one can also
  unpack a digest into a folder, but that's more tricky)

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[Mailman-Users] Duplicate message

[len ward]

Hi
Every time I send a message, or anyone for that matter, a duplicate message
is received.  The avoid duplicate button is off.  Can you help please?
Regards Len
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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Peter Shute]

> On 20 Mar 2015, at 6:20 pm, jdd  wrote:
> 
> Le 20/03/2015 08:16, Peter Shute a écrit :
> 
>> Getting off the subject, do you mean selecting quoted text, or any
>> text? I've never used an Android device, and I assumed that this kind
>> of basic task would be easier than on an iPhone. Perhaps not.
> 
> selecting old text to trim it. May be I have too large fingers :-(

If you're referring to the problem of getting the selection boundaries in 
exactly the right spot, I'm well familiar with that. So easy to get them within 
one or two characters, but requires excessive concentration and effort to get 
them closer. Don't know why they don't add cursor keys to help with it.

Peter Shute 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[jdd]

Le 20/03/2015 08:16, Peter Shute a écrit :


Getting off the subject, do you mean selecting quoted text, or any
text? I've never used an Android device, and I assumed that this kind
of basic task would be easier than on an iPhone. Perhaps not.


selecting old text to trim it. May be I have too large fingers :-(

jdd
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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[Peter Shute]

> On 20 Mar 2015, at 6:05 pm, jdd  wrote:
> 
> Le 20/03/2015 01:45, Mark Sapiro a écrit :
> 
>> This is a major hot-button issue for me, The above is only scratching
>> the surface.
> smartphones makes things horrible, on android, selecting text for 
> deletion is nearly impossible :-((

Getting off the subject, do you mean selecting quoted text, or any text? I've 
never used an Android device, and I assumed that this kind of basic task would 
be easier than on an iPhone. Perhaps not.

Peter Shute
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Re: [Mailman-Users] The "right" way to reply to a mailing list

[jdd]

Le 20/03/2015 01:45, Mark Sapiro a écrit :


This is a major hot-button issue for me, The above is only scratching
the surface.

smartphones makes things horrible, on android, selecting text for 
deletion is nearly impossible :-((


jdd
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