Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Hosting

2016-12-21 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull 
Mark Dale writes:

 > We haven't brushed Odhiambo off, but rather have worked with him on this 
 > problem trying to fix it. However,

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that you did, everything Odhiambo
wrote indicates that you have been very helpful, and I took that for
granted.  By support staff, I meant at Verizon, and I meant that the
large services (all of them, not just Verizon) often do brush off
issues presented by mailing lists, claiming that the mailing lists do
not conform to accepted practice (when it's the large services who
came in late and helped wreck the party :-( ).

Steve



--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Configure options not known

2016-12-21 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 12/21/2016 07:14 PM, Matt Morgan wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Matt Morgan 
> wrote:
>>
>> Unfortunately, local delivery is failing for all (as far as I can tell)
>> list addresses. What have I done? Any advice welcome.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Matt
>>
> 
> Looks like I need --with-mail-gid=mail. Working on that now.


I'm guessing from these that you determined that delivery to list
addresses was failing because of group mismatch error from the mail
wrapper and you are addressing that.

Let us know if you need further help.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Hosting

2016-12-21 Thread Jim Popovitch 
On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 11:42 PM, Mark Dale  wrote:
> Hi Odhiambo and Steve,
>
> I'm one of the co-owners of MailmanLists.net that is mentioned in this post.
>
> As Odhiambo said, we've recently moved one of the servers that hosted
> Odhiambo's list. This involved a change of IP address, and at the same time
> the problem with Verizon kicked into play.
>
> All the DNS records (inc SPF, DKIM) are in place, the server is on no RBLs,
> con-current connections to the recieving mail servers is set at 2 in
> Postfix. In short, all the right boxes are ticked as far as we can see.
>
> Point noted about the time needed to build a good IP reputation. In light of
> that, we moved the list to our old established server in Europe. It has a
> SenderScore of 99, and of course all the same boxes are ticked. Verizon
> still rejected list mail.
>
> As they have been somewhat resistant to address the issue in any real way, I
> do agree with Steven that they may listen to loud complaints from their own
> customers. However, that doesn't help Odhiambo right now.
>
> We haven't brushed Odhiambo off, but rather have worked with him on this
> problem trying to fix it. However, right now all our best intents are not
> helping - so any suggestions for a workaround on this would be truly
> appreciated.
>

A good place to start is on the mailop list, explain your company and
sign-up practices/filtering, etc.  Be open and ask for specific reps
to contact you offline if necessary.  You may get some awesome help,
although this close to the holidays your message may not hit the right
people until next year.

https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop

-Jim P.
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Hosting

2016-12-21 Thread Mark Dale 

Hi Odhiambo and Steve,

I'm one of the co-owners of MailmanLists.net that is mentioned in this post.

As Odhiambo said, we've recently moved one of the servers that hosted 
Odhiambo's list. This involved a change of IP address, and at the same 
time the problem with Verizon kicked into play.


All the DNS records (inc SPF, DKIM) are in place, the server is on no 
RBLs, con-current connections to the recieving mail servers is set at 2 
in Postfix. In short, all the right boxes are ticked as far as we can see.


Point noted about the time needed to build a good IP reputation. In 
light of that, we moved the list to our old established server in 
Europe. It has a SenderScore of 99, and of course all the same boxes are 
ticked. Verizon still rejected list mail.


As they have been somewhat resistant to address the issue in any real 
way, I do agree with Steven that they may listen to loud complaints from 
their own customers. However, that doesn't help Odhiambo right now.


We haven't brushed Odhiambo off, but rather have worked with him on this 
problem trying to fix it. However, right now all our best intents are 
not helping - so any suggestions for a workaround on this would be truly 
appreciated.


His list has around 400 members, with 70 or so being Verizon customers.


Regards,
Mark


 MailmanLists - hosted discussion lists
 Canberra, Australia
 Tel: +61 .2 61003121
 http://www.mailmanlists.net
===

On 22/12/16 15:18, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

Odhiambo Washington writes:

 > mails, but majority of the subscribers are with Verizon/ATT and that has
 > really affected one list that I have so I need to change.

Do you have a reason to think a change will help?  As you say, they're
notorious for blocking list emails.  I doubt their criteria are so
heavily weighted toward which hosting service you use as to make a big
difference here.  Rather (as others have suggested) probably any
change that involves significant flows of duplicate message-ids from a
new source will get blocked.  Other than that negative effect,
reputation is something that you build over time.  Trying to buy it in
an instant is not a good bet.

The first thing would be to check that your IPs aren't on any of the
RBLs.  Seems unlikely since you don't have problems with other
providers, but Verizon may have poor taste in RBLs (as they do in so
many other ways).  If you're on one, you'll be better off if you can
get off rather than moving.

Do you know and conform to their acceptable use policies?  Have you
talked to their support staff?  They're the only ones who know what
criteria they actually use to decide what to block.  I wouldn't be
surprised if they just brush you off, but that's the second thing you
should try.

Can you get your subscribers to complain?  That often has more effect
than complaints from a third party.

Steve

--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/mark%40mailmanlists.net



--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

[Mailman-Users] Mailman Hosting

2016-12-21 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull 
Odhiambo Washington writes:

 > mails, but majority of the subscribers are with Verizon/ATT and that has
 > really affected one list that I have so I need to change.

Do you have a reason to think a change will help?  As you say, they're
notorious for blocking list emails.  I doubt their criteria are so
heavily weighted toward which hosting service you use as to make a big
difference here.  Rather (as others have suggested) probably any
change that involves significant flows of duplicate message-ids from a
new source will get blocked.  Other than that negative effect,
reputation is something that you build over time.  Trying to buy it in
an instant is not a good bet.

The first thing would be to check that your IPs aren't on any of the
RBLs.  Seems unlikely since you don't have problems with other
providers, but Verizon may have poor taste in RBLs (as they do in so
many other ways).  If you're on one, you'll be better off if you can
get off rather than moving.

Do you know and conform to their acceptable use policies?  Have you
talked to their support staff?  They're the only ones who know what
criteria they actually use to decide what to block.  I wouldn't be
surprised if they just brush you off, but that's the second thing you
should try.

Can you get your subscribers to complain?  That often has more effect
than complaints from a third party.

Steve

--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Configure options not known

2016-12-21 Thread Matt Morgan 
On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 10:02 PM, Matt Morgan 
wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 6:41 PM, Mark Sapiro  wrote:
>
>> On 12/09/2016 02:27 PM, Matt Morgan wrote:
>> >
>> > Thanks. --prefix is the standard, but there's nothing in /var apart from
>> > mailman's crontab. What's an example of a file that I could 'locate' to
>> > figure out what mailman is using instead of /var? Or is there another
>> > way to determine what it is?
>>
>>
>> Where are the archives/, data/, lists/, locks/, logs/, qfiles/ and
>> spam/ directories. If they are in the same directory as the bin/, cron/,
>> icons/, mail/,  Mailman/,  messages/, pythonlib/, scripts/ and tests/
>> directories, then you don't need --with-var-prefix at all because it is
>> the same as $prefix. If different, then the containing directory is what
>> you need for --with-var-prefix.
>>
>> If the bin/, cron/, icons/, mail/,  Mailman/,  messages/, pythonlib/,
>> scripts/ and tests/ directories are all in /usr/local/mailman, you don't
>> need --prefix because that's the default.
>>
>> Finally, if the cgi-bin/ directory is in $prefix, you don't need
>> --exec-prefix. Otherwise, --exec-prefix is the path that contains the
>> cgi-bin/ directory.
>
>
> (snipping a lot of that)
>
> configure and make install seemed to work. I got a CGI error and corrected
> it, just like you said would happen.
>
> Unfortunately, local delivery is failing for all (as far as I can tell)
> list addresses. What have I done? Any advice welcome.
>
> Thanks,
> Matt
>

Looks like I need --with-mail-gid=mail. Working on that now.
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Configure options not known

2016-12-21 Thread Matt Morgan 
On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 6:41 PM, Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> On 12/09/2016 02:27 PM, Matt Morgan wrote:
> >
> > Thanks. --prefix is the standard, but there's nothing in /var apart from
> > mailman's crontab. What's an example of a file that I could 'locate' to
> > figure out what mailman is using instead of /var? Or is there another
> > way to determine what it is?
>
>
> Where are the archives/, data/, lists/, locks/, logs/, qfiles/ and
> spam/ directories. If they are in the same directory as the bin/, cron/,
> icons/, mail/,  Mailman/,  messages/, pythonlib/, scripts/ and tests/
> directories, then you don't need --with-var-prefix at all because it is
> the same as $prefix. If different, then the containing directory is what
> you need for --with-var-prefix.
>
> If the bin/, cron/, icons/, mail/,  Mailman/,  messages/, pythonlib/,
> scripts/ and tests/ directories are all in /usr/local/mailman, you don't
> need --prefix because that's the default.
>
> Finally, if the cgi-bin/ directory is in $prefix, you don't need
> --exec-prefix. Otherwise, --exec-prefix is the path that contains the
> cgi-bin/ directory.


(snipping a lot of that)

configure and make install seemed to work. I got a CGI error and corrected
it, just like you said would happen.

Unfortunately, local delivery is failing for all (as far as I can tell)
list addresses. What have I done? Any advice welcome.

Thanks,
Matt
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Hosting

2016-12-21 Thread Adam McGreggor 
On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 08:45:35PM +0300, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> True. We then migrated the list to another of their servers that already
> existed, but the rejections
> became even more.

I'd still do a gradual ramp-up to N recipients with the 'standard' type of
messages/headers/patterns for each new sending pattern, nowadays, rather than
just "these IPs have been used before…".


-- 
"I would nationalise Elizabeth Hurley and allow each of us to claim
 our share."
— JG Ballard ('lost' NS interview, mid 1990s)
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Hosting

2016-12-21 Thread Odhiambo Washington 
On 21 December 2016 at 20:09, Adam McGreggor 
wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 07:11:16PM +0300, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> > one of their co-lo facilities in the US closed down and they had to move
> to
> > another co-lo. This obviously involved migration of servers/ change of IP
> > addresses and this has not gone well for one of my mailing lists which
> has
>
> An influx of mail from a new host, rather than a increase over time
> probably
> didn't/doesn't help either.
>

True. We then migrated the list to another of their servers that already
existed, but the rejections
became even more.


>
> (I've not seen any feature in Mailman that does
> limiting based on destination, and wouldn't expect that to be a feature of
> Mailman 2; I might even advocate it should not be a feature in MM3,
> either.)
>
>
In Exim (MTA) we have a way of doing that. Postfix probably has too. But
hey, I digressed just a little.


-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223
"Oh, the cruft."
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Hosting

2016-12-21 Thread ddewey 
Quoting Adam McGreggor (adam-mail...@amyl.org.uk):

> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 07:11:16PM +0300, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> > one of their co-lo facilities in the US closed down and they had to move to
> > another co-lo. This obviously involved migration of servers/ change of IP
> > addresses and this has not gone well for one of my mailing lists which has
> 
> An influx of mail from a new host, rather than a increase over time probably
> didn't/doesn't help either.
> 
> (I've not seen any feature in Mailman that does
> limiting based on destination, and wouldn't expect that to be a feature of
> Mailman 2; I might even advocate it should not be a feature in MM3, either.)

You can do this in the MTA, postfix for example. Doesn't need to be in
mailman. I have ridculously low rate limits for a couple of providers
(hello Time-Warner).
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Hosting

2016-12-21 Thread Adam McGreggor 
On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 07:11:16PM +0300, Odhiambo Washington wrote:
> one of their co-lo facilities in the US closed down and they had to move to
> another co-lo. This obviously involved migration of servers/ change of IP
> addresses and this has not gone well for one of my mailing lists which has

An influx of mail from a new host, rather than a increase over time probably
didn't/doesn't help either.

(I've not seen any feature in Mailman that does
limiting based on destination, and wouldn't expect that to be a feature of
Mailman 2; I might even advocate it should not be a feature in MM3, either.)


-- 
Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often,
and for the same reason.
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Hosting

2016-12-21 Thread Odhiambo Washington 
Just for the record, I have been hosting with mailmanlists.net for the last
three or so years and I am very happy with them. The only problem is that
one of their co-lo facilities in the US closed down and they had to move to
another co-lo. This obviously involved migration of servers/ change of IP
addresses and this has not gone well for one of my mailing lists which has
so many subscribers on Verizon/ATT. It's the only reason I am looking for a
well-known hosting provider which has an already "good reputation" - that
Verizon/ATT accepts lists mail from their servers...

On 21 December 2016 at 18:56, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users <
mailman-users@python.org> wrote:

> Hi  to East Africa
>
> I do not have any information about their "reputation" with Verizon and
> AT&T, but our organization uses digimouse.eu for mail, mailing lists and
> web.
>
> You may want to mention my name when contacting them (no,  I do not get
> any compensation for my "advertising").
>
> Christian
>
>
> --
> Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)
> Hilfe für Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org
>
>
> > Odhiambo Washington 
> > 21. Dezember 2016 um 16:46
> > Hi,
> >
> > Does anyone know of a provider who hosts Mailman and who has a good
> > reputation with American ISPs - Verizon and ATT, etc? These providers
> > somehow have notoriety blocking mailing list emails. I'm currently
> hosting
> > with a provider based in Oz, but having some difficulties when it comes
> to
> > Verizon and ATT. AOL, Gmail, Hotmail, Outlook, Yahoo etc are all
> accepting
> > mails, but majority of the subscribers are with Verizon/ATT and that has
> > really affected one list that I have so I need to change.
> >
> >
> > Please recommend one.
> >
>
> --
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/ma
> ilman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/odhiam
> bo%40gmail.com
>



-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223
"Oh, the cruft."
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Hosting

2016-12-21 Thread Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users 
Hi  to East Africa

I do not have any information about their "reputation" with Verizon and
AT&T, but our organization uses digimouse.eu for mail, mailing lists and
web.

You may want to mention my name when contacting them (no,  I do not get
any compensation for my "advertising").

Christian

 
-- 
Christian F. Buser, Hohle Gasse 6, CH-5507 Mellingen (Switzerland)  
Hilfe für Strassenkinder in Ghana: http://www.chance-for-children.org


> Odhiambo Washington 
> 21. Dezember 2016 um 16:46
> Hi,
>
> Does anyone know of a provider who hosts Mailman and who has a good
> reputation with American ISPs - Verizon and ATT, etc? These providers
> somehow have notoriety blocking mailing list emails. I'm currently hosting
> with a provider based in Oz, but having some difficulties when it comes to
> Verizon and ATT. AOL, Gmail, Hotmail, Outlook, Yahoo etc are all accepting
> mails, but majority of the subscribers are with Verizon/ATT and that has
> really affected one list that I have so I need to change.
>
>
> Please recommend one.
>

--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

[Mailman-Users] Mailman Hosting

2016-12-21 Thread Odhiambo Washington 
Hi,

Does anyone know of a provider who hosts Mailman and who has a good
reputation with American ISPs - Verizon and ATT, etc? These providers
somehow have notoriety blocking mailing list emails. I'm currently hosting
with a provider based in Oz, but having some difficulties when it comes to
Verizon and ATT. AOL, Gmail, Hotmail, Outlook, Yahoo etc are all accepting
mails, but majority of the subscribers are with Verizon/ATT and that has
really affected one list that I have so I need to change.


Please recommend one.

-- 
Best regards,
Odhiambo WASHINGTON,
Nairobi,KE
+254 7 3200 0004/+254 7 2274 3223
"Oh, the cruft."
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org