Re: [Mailman-Users] Replying to the List

2017-12-07 Thread Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users 

On 12/07/2017 07:19 PM, Chip Davis wrote:
And I have no problem with that (except that editorial advice probably 
doesn't belong on a settings page) because it refers to a "mailing 
list".  I have no statistics, but my exposure to Mailman has been almost 
exclusively as a "discussion list".  Therefore, all of the Mailman 
instances that I admin ignore this "strong recommendation" and set 
'reply_goes_to_list' to 'This list'.  Yes, that does open the DMARC/DKIM 
can-o-worms, but just about everything useful does... :-/


I came to the conclusion long ago that there are effectively two types 
of mailing lists, 1) broadcast lists where replies go somewhere other 
than the list and 2) discussion lists where replies go back to the 
mailing list.


Which should be used is an often debated topic.  In some ways, it's as 
religious as vi vs emacs.


Ultimately, it comes down to what you, as a mailing list administrator 
want to do.  Sure, you can take some influence from your subscribers. 
But it is /your/ choice as the administrator.


I think that Mailman (et al) should inform administrators of the 
potential caveats of their decision, not try to persuade them one way or 
the other.


I personally feel like discussion mailing lists are their own entity. 
Thus they are the author of the message (with content heavily based on 
incoming emails) and as such all aspects of the message should reflect 
the discussion mailing list.  (I'm also a vim user.)




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Grant. . . .
unix || die

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Replying to the List

2017-12-07 Thread Chip Davis 

On 12/7/2017 2:29 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

On 12/07/2017 09:15 AM, Phil Stracchino wrote:


Short version for free:  Edit /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py and add the
following line anywhere AFTER 'from Defaults import *':

DEFAULT_REPLY_GOES_TO_LIST = 1



It is not necessary and probably not effective in this case to edit
mm_cfg.py. That only sets the default for new lists.

What is wanted in this case is the settings on the web admin UI General
Options page under Reply-To: header munging. In particular:

Where are replies to list messages directed? Poster is strongly
recommended for most mailing lists.
(Details for reply_goes_to_list)


And I have no problem with that (except that editorial advice probably 
doesn't belong on a settings page) because it refers to a "mailing 
list".  I have no statistics, but my exposure to Mailman has been 
almost exclusively as a "discussion list".  Therefore, all of the 
Mailman instances that I admin ignore this "strong recommendation" and 
set 'reply_goes_to_list' to 'This list'.  Yes, that does open the 
DMARC/DKIM can-o-worms, but just about everything useful does... :-/


Perhaps it would be useful to new Mailman admins if there were some 
sort of Quick Start Tutorial that covered appropriate initial settings 
for using Mailman as a:

 - Mailing List
 - Discussion List
 - Suggestion Box
 - IRC bot
 - etc.

-Chip-
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Replying to the List

2017-12-07 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 12/07/2017 09:15 AM, Phil Stracchino wrote:
> 
> Short version for free:  Edit /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py and add the
> following line anywhere AFTER 'from Defaults import *':
> 
> DEFAULT_REPLY_GOES_TO_LIST = 1


It is not necessary and probably not effective in this case to edit
mm_cfg.py. That only sets the default for new lists.

What is wanted in this case is the settings on the web admin UI General
Options page under Reply-To: header munging. In particular:

Where are replies to list messages directed? Poster is strongly
recommended for most mailing lists.
(Details for reply_goes_to_list)

And do follow the Details link and read the articles linked therefrom
and also 

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Replying to the List

2017-12-07 Thread Jordan Brown 
On 12/7/2017 9:15 AM, Phil Stracchino wrote:
> On 12/07/17 00:43, Ron Beatteay via Mailman-Users wrote:
>> Hi all, 
>> I’m new to mailman.  My previous Listserv platform ( LSoft ) made it easy to 
>> reply to discussions by automatically sending replies to the list.  With 
>> mailman, replies go to the person, not the list,, so we have to make the 
>> extra step of correcting the outgoing to: address.   Is there a way to make 
>> that default in settings?
> Yes.  The documentation explains how.
>
> Short version for free:  Edit /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py and add the
> following line anywhere AFTER 'from Defaults import *':
>
> DEFAULT_REPLY_GOES_TO_LIST = 1

But don't do it.  Teach your users to use "Reply All" when they want to
talk to everybody and "Reply" when they want to talk to the author of
the particular message.

Mailing list mechanisms that set "Reply-To" to point to the mailing list
inevitably lead to messages that are intended to be private being
accidentally sent to the entire list.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Replying to the List

2017-12-07 Thread Dimitri Maziuk 
On 12/07/2017 12:25 PM, Jordan Brown wrote:
> On 12/7/2017 10:21 AM, Phil Stracchino wrote:
>> This is a religious dispute.
> 
> Yep.

Only FVO religion = "belief that computer can read your mind".

Presumably there exist some lists and/or users out there for which
replying to one or the other (or both) is *always* The Right Thing(tm).
I don't remember ever running into one myself.

-- 
Dimitri Maziuk
Programmer/sysadmin
BioMagResBank, UW-Madison -- http://www.bmrb.wisc.edu



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Replying to the List

2017-12-07 Thread Jordan Brown 
On 12/7/2017 10:21 AM, Phil Stracchino wrote:
> This is a religious dispute.

Yep.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Replying to the List

2017-12-07 Thread Phil Stracchino 
On 12/07/17 13:17, Jordan Brown wrote:
> On 12/7/2017 9:15 AM, Phil Stracchino wrote:
>> On 12/07/17 00:43, Ron Beatteay via Mailman-Users wrote:
>>> Hi all, 
>>> I’m new to mailman.  My previous Listserv platform ( LSoft ) made it easy 
>>> to reply to discussions by automatically sending replies to the list.  With 
>>> mailman, replies go to the person, not the list,, so we have to make the 
>>> extra step of correcting the outgoing to: address.   Is there a way to make 
>>> that default in settings?
>> Yes.  The documentation explains how.
>>
>> Short version for free:  Edit /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py and add the
>> following line anywhere AFTER 'from Defaults import *':
>>
>> DEFAULT_REPLY_GOES_TO_LIST = 1
> 
> But don't do it.  Teach your users to use "Reply All" when they want to
> talk to everybody and "Reply" when they want to talk to the author of
> the particular message.
> 
> Mailing list mechanisms that set "Reply-To" to point to the mailing list
> inevitably lead to messages that are intended to be private being
> accidentally sent to the entire list.


This is a religious dispute.  Both schools of thought have their
adherents and their vehement opponents, and some mailers still do not
provide separate options for reply-to-sender and reply-to-list.

The smart-money choice is to carefully consider on a list-by-list basis
which policy is appropriate for the list in question.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Replying to the List

2017-12-07 Thread Phil Stracchino 
On 12/07/17 00:43, Ron Beatteay via Mailman-Users wrote:
> Hi all, 
> I’m new to mailman.  My previous Listserv platform ( LSoft ) made it easy to 
> reply to discussions by automatically sending replies to the list.  With 
> mailman, replies go to the person, not the list,, so we have to make the 
> extra step of correcting the outgoing to: address.   Is there a way to make 
> that default in settings?

Yes.  The documentation explains how.

Short version for free:  Edit /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py and add the
following line anywhere AFTER 'from Defaults import *':

DEFAULT_REPLY_GOES_TO_LIST = 1



-- 
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[Mailman-Users] Replying to the List

2017-12-07 Thread Ron Beatteay via Mailman-Users 
Hi all, 
I’m new to mailman.  My previous Listserv platform ( LSoft ) made it easy to 
reply to discussions by automatically sending replies to the list.  With 
mailman, replies go to the person, not the list,, so we have to make the extra 
step of correcting the outgoing to: address.   Is there a way to make that 
default in settings?
Ron

Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad


On Tuesday, December 5, 2017, 3:38 PM, List Manager  
wrote:

Yesterday, I asked: Is there a way, with mailman 2.1.24 to sort the
Pending Moderator
Requests list in something other than alphabetically? Chronologically
would be especially helpful. 

And Mark answered:
> Yes.
> First of all, the "Discard messages marked Defer" selection will not
> discard any messages which aren't listed and marked Defer on the page
> when you submit it, so you don't need to worry about discarding messages
>that arrived after you loaded the page. 

VERY good to know... HOWEVER, since my moderator list of deferrals has
both SPAM and a few members set to moderate, and I check these moderated
members' messages as I encounter them on the list, that means the list
is being reloaded after each moderated message I handle, so my fear is
justified (though I wish it were not)... 

> As far as sorting is concerned, if you can update the server config or
> influence those that can 

I can do both/either 

# Shall the admindb held message summary display the grouping and
sorting
# option radio buttons? Set this in mm_cfg.py to one of the following:
# SSENDER -> Default to grouped and sorted by sender.
# SSENDERTIME -> Default to grouped by sender and sorted by time.
# STIME -> Default to ungrouped and sorted by time.
DISPLAY_HELD_SUMMARY_SORT_BUTTONS = No 

Key question here: does this impact ALL lists on the server, or just my
list? I have not mucked about with configuration settings for the list,
save those on the Admin web page(s), and we have several lists managed
by other people, whose toes I'd like to avoid trampling upon...
--
Jack Hill, W4KH - BoatAnchors Listowner/Archiver
"Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose"
"Il n'y a que les idiots qui ne changent jamais d'idee"
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