[Mailman-Users] Re: Addressing of list messages by the server

[Mark Sapiro]

On 2/10/21 9:26 AM, Christian Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> I have been asked by one of our list members about why the addressing of list 
> messages he receives varies and he likes to know why. 
> 
> Some messages come with the following headers: 
> 
> From: Sender Name via Listname 
> To: listn...@domain.com
> Cc: Recepient Name 


This is a message which has had the DMARC mitigation `Munge From` applied.

If the Cc: is actually a recipient, it was put there by the sender, but
I suspect it is actually the sender's address and not the recipient's.
In the case of Munge From, the sender's address is put either in Cc: or
Reply-To: depending on other list settings. See

for more detail on this.


> Other messages (on the same list, same recipient): 
> 
> From: Sender Name  <>
> To: Listname 
> (and no Cc: header)


This is a message to which DMARC mitigation has not been applied.


> My questions - just to understand it, since the list seems to work perfectly:
> 
> 1) What does cause this different addressing

The list is applying DMARC Munge From mitigations based on the DMARC
policy of the original From: domain. See
 for more about this.


> 2) How does the receiving mail server know where to deliver the message when 
> there is no Cc: field in the headers and the list address in the To: field? 


The recipients of the message are specified as recipients by Mailman in
its SMTP transaction with the outgoing MTA. These are known as envelope
recipients and are the addresses to which the message will be sent. They
have nothing to do with any To: or Cc: headers in the message itself.

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Addressing of list messages by the server

[Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users]

On 2/10/21 10:26 AM, Christian Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:

Hi all


Hi,

My questions - just to understand it, since the list seems to work 
perfectly:


1) What does cause this different addressing


I'm guessing this is related to DMARC.

2) How does the receiving mail server know where to deliver the message 
when there is no Cc: field in the headers and the list address in 
the To: field?


Email is delivered based on the SMTP envelope addresses, which are 
completely disconnected (but often similar) to the email header addresses.



Thank you, Christian


You're welcome.



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[Mailman-Users] Addressing of list messages by the server

[Christian Buser via Mailman-Users]

Hi all 

I have been asked by one of our list members about why the addressing of list 
messages he receives varies and he likes to know why. 

Some messages come with the following headers: 

From: Sender Name via Listname 
To: listn...@domain.com
Cc: Recepient Name 

Other messages (on the same list, same recipient): 

From: Sender Name  <>
To: Listname 
(and no Cc: header)

My questions - just to understand it, since the list seems to work perfectly:

1) What does cause this different addressing
2) How does the receiving mail server know where to deliver the message when 
there is no Cc: field in the headers and the list address in the To: field? 

In case it is important: Mailman 2.1.33 on cPanel. 

Thank you, Christian 

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[Mailman-Users] Re: Strange DKIM failure

[Mark Sapiro]

On 2/10/21 6:42 AM, nikos wrote:
> 
> On 9/2/2021 7:00 ΞΌ.ΞΌ., mailman-users-requ...@python.org wrote:
>> On 2/8/21 1:46 AM, nikos wrote:
>>> Hello list.
>>>
>>> I'm running a Centos 7 mailserver with multiple domains. I create a list
>>> for one of them and found at code 2 lines of DKIM:
>>>
>>> dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=...
>>>
>>> dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key)
>>> header.d=...
>>>
>>> I guess that was the reason that many recipients didn't receive any
>>> email, especially yahoo users.
>>>
>>> Why there are 2 lines of Dkim and why the second is fail? SPF and DMARC
>>> are pass.
>> Please post all of the headers from the received message, not just these
>> two partial ones out of context. If you want to munge user and domain
>> names, you can, but do so in a way that we can tell what's what.
> 
> Hello. The full headers of DKIM are:
> 
> dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eratospe.org header.i=@eratospe.org
> header.b="svQ52cQj";
> dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key)
> header.d=eratospe.org header.i=@eratospe.org header.b="XUaar9fG"


I asked for ALL the headers, not just the two you show, but in any case,
what I think is happening is there is more than one DKIM signature in
the mail. The first is before list transformations such as prefixing the
Subject: or adding a footer and the second is after. The first fails
because of the list transformations and the second passes.


> I set REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS = Yes

This may make a difference, but it shouldn't. According to
 a message with
a good signature should verify even if there are also bad signatures
present.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: MM3 - nested list - munge_from - Reply-To not persistent

[Mark Sapiro]

Please use the mailman-us...@mailman3.org list

for Mailman 3 questions.


On 2/9/21 10:12 PM, Stefan Bauer via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> is there a way to keep the real sender information in the Reply-To when 
> nested lists are used?
> 
> We use munge_from and dmarc_mitigate_unconditionally true.
> 
> We have following lists:
> 
> 
> ALL (RND,IT,SALES)
> 
> 
> When Joe sends a mail to RND-list, Joe's Sender-Address is referenced in 
> Reply-To.
> 
> When Joe sends a mail to ALL, ALL's list-address is referenced in Reply-To 
> and not the one from the real sender - Joe.


I assume you mean ALL's address is in Reply-To of messages from the sub
lists. If you set the sub list's `first strip reply-to` to No, then both
Joe and the ALL list should be in the Reply-To for a message to ALL.

There is no way to have only Joe in the sub list Reply-To.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: Strange DKIM failure

[nikos]

On 9/2/2021 7:00 ΞΌ.ΞΌ., mailman-users-requ...@python.org wrote:

On 2/8/21 1:46 AM, nikos wrote:

Hello list.

I'm running a Centos 7 mailserver with multiple domains. I create a list
for one of them and found at code 2 lines of DKIM:

dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=...

dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key)
header.d=...

I guess that was the reason that many recipients didn't receive any
email, especially yahoo users.

Why there are 2 lines of Dkim and why the second is fail? SPF and DMARC
are pass.

Please post all of the headers from the received message, not just these
two partial ones out of context. If you want to munge user and domain
names, you can, but do so in a way that we can tell what's what.


Hello. The full headers of DKIM are:

dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=eratospe.org header.i=@eratospe.org 
header.b="svQ52cQj";
dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key) 
header.d=eratospe.org header.i=@eratospe.org header.b="XUaar9fG"


I set REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS = Yes

to mm_cfg.py and I tried send a small list of 10 email of several domain 
(hotmail, yahoo, gmail, etc) and delivered with no problem.


We didnt find the chance to try a biggest list...

Thank you, Nikos.



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[Mailman-Users] Re: Tracking email

[Sam Kuper]

On Wed, Feb 10, 2021 at 01:51:39PM +, Sam Kuper wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 09, 2021 at 09:55:54PM -0600, Jesus Rivas wrote:
>> for example the pixel image to track who open the email, i need for
>> knows how many user open the email.
> 
> No, you don't.
> 
> Privacy is literally a human right:
> 
> "Article 8 protects your right to respect for your private life,
> your family life, your home and your correspondence (letters,
> telephone calls and emails, for example)."
> 
> Source:
> https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/human-rights-act/article-8-respect-your-private-and-family-life

N.B. The above is European law.  For the global version, see instead:

Article 12.  No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference
with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks
upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the
protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Source: https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

See also RFC 7258:

Pervasive Monitoring (PM) is widespread (and often covert)
surveillance through intrusive gathering of protocol artefacts,
including application content, or protocol metadata such as headers.
...  The IETF community's technical assessment is that PM is an
attack on the privacy of Internet users and organisations.

Source: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7258

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[Mailman-Users] Re: Tracking email

[Sam Kuper]

On Tue, Feb 09, 2021 at 09:55:54PM -0600, Jesus Rivas wrote:
> for example the pixel image to track who open the email, i need for
> knows how many user open the email.

No, you don't.

Privacy is literally a human right:

"Article 8 protects your right to respect for your private life,
your family life, your home and your correspondence (letters,
telephone calls and emails, for example)."

Source: 
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/human-rights-act/article-8-respect-your-private-and-family-life

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()  ASCII ribbon campaign. Please avoid HTML emails & proprietary
/\  file formats. (Why? See e.g. https://v.gd/jrmGbS ). Thank you.
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