Re: [Mailman-Users] Digests and HTML-enhanced email
On Oct 21, 2011, at 11:21 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote: The list is configured with mime_is_default_digest set to MIME, which I assume sends digests with each post as a separate attachment (I've never subscribed to the digest for this list, so I don't really know). I had assumed that this might address this problem, but apparently not. It's not done as a separate attachment, it's done as separate MIME bodyparts, which some MUAs might render as an attachment -- particularly, the more brain-dead ones. One of two things needs to happen. Either the list server should refuse and bounce posts with no MIME text/plain part, or some more intelligent configuration of Mailman needs to be available so that posts within a digest will render properly under these circumstances. Maybe a more recent version of Mailman can do this, I don't know. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Mailman can flatten HTML to plain text on ingest, and when the MIME format digest is generated, that should look mostly kinda semi-sorta correct -- at least, on the majority of less brain-dead MUAs. For MUAs that don't generate text that can be flattened, that should result in what would appear to Mailman to be an empty message, which should be silently dropped. Some users might wonder what is happening to their messages, if they're submitting with a really brain-dead MUA. Of course, there is still the issue of what to do with any real attachments that might have been included. Mailman can silently strip those, or it can scrub them and put them in the archives, replacing the actual attachment content with a link to the scrubbed attachment in the archives. All of this can be done on the version of Mailman that you have today, but more recent versions of Mailman might have other advantages that you might also appreciate. I rather dislike HTML-enhanced email (to put it gently). There's no fixed standard for it, and what renders one way in one mail reader renders some other way in another mail reader, and it confuses the hell out of list servers. But people will use it, increasingly it seems, and insist on doing so, so somehow this kind of problem needs to be dealt with. I think that the tools are already there for the bulk of list admins to deal with the bulk of problems. The only outstanding major issue that I know of that we can't fix right now is the handling of appending footers to MIME-formatted messages which can be rendered by some brain-dead MUAs as separate attachments. So far, the consensus has been that we won't kowtow to those brain-dead MUAs, and if the users in question can't deal with these separate attachments, then the list admins are going to have to forgo putting footers on messages as they are being passed through the system. -- Brad Knowles b...@shub-internet.org LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Digests and HTML-enhanced email
Lindsay Haisley writes: One of two things needs to happen. Either the list server should refuse and bounce posts with no MIME text/plain part, Refuse, maybe, but bouncing is a problem (spam-by-backscatter). But refusing such mail is only going to confuse the kind of subscriber who is as non-techie as the ones you describe. You can already do refuse such mail, I believe, but the configuration is probably rather arcane. or some more intelligent configuration of Mailman needs to be available so that posts within a digest will render properly under these circumstances. Unfortunately, that's an awful lot of intelligence. Maybe a more recent version of Mailman can do this, I don't know. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Disable digests. If that's unacceptable, the list in question might be happier as a web forum, much as I hate to say it. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Digests and HTML-enhanced email
Lindsay Haisley wrote: [...] Message: 25 Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 08:42:29 -0700 From: foo bar ... To: cyberpluck...@autoharp.org Subject: Re: [CP] Intro Message-ID: a0ffed34-525e-40a5-88c6-4b78dbef2df8@blur Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.autoharp.org/mailman/blah/blah//attachment.html ... snip ... other examples I took a look at the list archive and indeed the email appears in the archives also with only a link to the attachment, which is the HTML-enhanced message, visible as HTML code. There's no plain text version in the archive. Stephen and Brad have already replied, and I'm not going to repeat what they said. I'm only going to reply to a few specific technical issues. The above message excerpt is from a plain format digest. This CAN be avoided in the digest by subscribing to the MIME digest, but it cannot be avoided in the archive. All non-plain text parts of a message will generally be scrubbed for the archive. There is some control over how scrubbed HTML is rendered in the archive. See the documentation for ARCHIVE_HTML_SANITIZER in Defaults.py. I explained to the subscriber, and to the list admins, that this (and similar) posts were probably HTML-only posts, and that, absent a plain text rendering in a multipart email, the list server had no way to generate a plain text version, and that including multiple HTML-enhanced emails in a digest was problematic and not going to work very well, if at all. The list admins are aware that plain text is the appropriate format for posting to a mailing list, but subscribers come and go from this list, and as I said, many don't understand such things, and it seems that there are a number of mail programs out there which will generate an HTML-enhanced email without an accompanying MIME text/plain version. Content filtering can convert HTML to plain text using lynx, elinks or a similar program. The list is configured with mime_is_default_digest set to MIME, which I assume sends digests with each post as a separate attachment (I've never subscribed to the digest for this list, so I don't really know). I had assumed that this might address this problem, but apparently not. It only sets the default for new subscribers. The subscriber above is receiving plain digests. One of two things needs to happen. Either the list server should refuse and bounce posts with no MIME text/plain part, or some more intelligent configuration of Mailman needs to be available so that posts within a digest will render properly under these circumstances. Maybe a more recent version of Mailman can do this, I don't know. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Content filtering can remove HTML or convert it to plain text and Discard, Reject (problematic as Stephen notes) or Forward to Owner posts which are empty after filtering. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Digests and HTML-enhanced email
Dear Lindsay, perhaps I can make an input to this thread since I was about to post something similar. If my comments are incorrect, please advise since I have no desire to mislead any one. We, too, have a load of old dinosaurs on one list who always manage to post to wrong addresses and whose posts are of often rejected. Getting the plain-text gospel across is hard. Outside of digests, of which I know nothing, I see two approaches. One aimed at getting plain text conformity from member input and the other at getting plain text readability from Mailman output. The first is reflected in the users FAQ 3.10 How to enforce a text-plain policy. The answer being with difficulty because this option probably (as I read it) ensures that any message with non-plain-text content is completely, utterly, and totally, rejected, even if plain-text is present, rejecting all non-conformist messages and requiring you to drill your recipients into plain-text submission. The second is Content Filtering. I understand that this is to remove objectionable content types, and steamroller the rest into conformity as plain-text. It appears not to be 'on' by default. With a number of lists running I had played about with these items, but we have a residual core of trouble. I have just (read last night) reverted to switching Content Filtering 'on' with the default settings and will monitor results closely. The lists are now set identically in this regard. Text-plain enforcement policies are not in place at present. Anne On Fri, 21 Oct 2011 23:21:09 -0500 Lindsay Haisley fmouse-mail...@fmp.com wrote: I host a list for about 700 autoharp musical enthusiasts on Mailman 2.1.12. The subscribers are by and large somewhat elderly and non techie, and to most of them an explanation of the difference between HTML-enhanced email and plain text email would be unintelligible geek-speak. I recently received the following email from one of the subscribers: Scrubbed messages as they appear in my cyberpluckers DIGESTS: This type of problem is perhaps a bit over 6 months old, and evidently is caused by the manner in which some people have tried to attach their message to their cyberplucker posting. How can this problem be resolved?THANKS ... Drew Smith *** Message: 25 Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 08:42:29 -0700 From: foo bar ... To: cyberpluck...@autoharp.org Subject: Re: [CP] Intro Message-ID: a0ffed34-525e-40a5-88c6-4b78dbef2df8@blur Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.autoharp.org/mailman/blah/blah//attachment.html ... snip ... other examples I took a look at the list archive and indeed the email appears in the archives also with only a link to the attachment, which is the HTML-enhanced message, visible as HTML code. There's no plain text version in the archive. I explained to the subscriber, and to the list admins, that this (and similar) posts were probably HTML-only posts, and that, absent a plain text rendering in a multipart email, the list server had no way to generate a plain text version, and that including multiple HTML-enhanced emails in a digest was problematic and not going to work very well, if at all. The list admins are aware that plain text is the appropriate format for posting to a mailing list, but subscribers come and go from this list, and as I said, many don't understand such things, and it seems that there are a number of mail programs out there which will generate an HTML-enhanced email without an accompanying MIME text/plain version. The list is configured with mime_is_default_digest set to MIME, which I assume sends digests with each post as a separate attachment (I've never subscribed to the digest for this list, so I don't really know). I had assumed that this might address this problem, but apparently not. One of two things needs to happen. Either the list server should refuse and bounce posts with no MIME text/plain part, or some more intelligent configuration of Mailman needs to be available so that posts within a digest will render properly under these circumstances. Maybe a more recent version of Mailman can do this, I don't know. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I rather dislike HTML-enhanced email (to put it gently). There's no fixed standard for it, and what renders one way in one mail reader renders some other way in another mail reader, and it confuses the hell out of list servers. But people will use it, increasingly it seems, and insist on doing so, so somehow this kind of problem needs to be dealt with. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives:
Re: [Mailman-Users] Digests and HTML-enhanced email
Anne Wainwright writes: The first is reflected in the users FAQ 3.10 How to enforce a text-plain policy. The answer being with difficulty because this option probably (as I read it) ensures that any message with non-plain-text content is completely, utterly, and totally, rejected, even if plain-text is present, That's true for Mailman 2.0, which I hope nobody who doesn't have a very good idea of what they're doing is using anymore. For Mailman 2.1, almost all of the time the presence of a text/plain part means the message will get through in tolerable shape given the recommended settings. And assuming you have one of the non-GUI web browsers (usually lynx) available to generate text/plain from text/html, most of the time you should get something usable from text/html, but that is only as good as the conversion tool is. The second is Content Filtering. I understand that this is to remove objectionable content types, and steamroller the rest into conformity as plain-text. It appears not to be 'on' by default. AFAIK it actually only knows how to steamroller text/html, although a modest amount of programming (== Somebody on this list can post a patch with a few minutes thought) should allow pretty much any text/* type to be converted. Other non-objectable content types will be passed through unmolested, on the assumption that the list admin believe the MUAs in use can handle them. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Digests and HTML-enhanced email
I host a list for about 700 autoharp musical enthusiasts on Mailman 2.1.12. The subscribers are by and large somewhat elderly and non techie, and to most of them an explanation of the difference between HTML-enhanced email and plain text email would be unintelligible geek-speak. I recently received the following email from one of the subscribers: Scrubbed messages as they appear in my cyberpluckers DIGESTS: This type of problem is perhaps a bit over 6 months old, and evidently is caused by the manner in which some people have tried to attach their message to their cyberplucker posting. How can this problem be resolved?THANKS ... Drew Smith *** Message: 25 Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 08:42:29 -0700 From: foo bar ... To: cyberpluck...@autoharp.org Subject: Re: [CP] Intro Message-ID: a0ffed34-525e-40a5-88c6-4b78dbef2df8@blur Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://www.autoharp.org/mailman/blah/blah//attachment.html ... snip ... other examples I took a look at the list archive and indeed the email appears in the archives also with only a link to the attachment, which is the HTML-enhanced message, visible as HTML code. There's no plain text version in the archive. I explained to the subscriber, and to the list admins, that this (and similar) posts were probably HTML-only posts, and that, absent a plain text rendering in a multipart email, the list server had no way to generate a plain text version, and that including multiple HTML-enhanced emails in a digest was problematic and not going to work very well, if at all. The list admins are aware that plain text is the appropriate format for posting to a mailing list, but subscribers come and go from this list, and as I said, many don't understand such things, and it seems that there are a number of mail programs out there which will generate an HTML-enhanced email without an accompanying MIME text/plain version. The list is configured with mime_is_default_digest set to MIME, which I assume sends digests with each post as a separate attachment (I've never subscribed to the digest for this list, so I don't really know). I had assumed that this might address this problem, but apparently not. One of two things needs to happen. Either the list server should refuse and bounce posts with no MIME text/plain part, or some more intelligent configuration of Mailman needs to be available so that posts within a digest will render properly under these circumstances. Maybe a more recent version of Mailman can do this, I don't know. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I rather dislike HTML-enhanced email (to put it gently). There's no fixed standard for it, and what renders one way in one mail reader renders some other way in another mail reader, and it confuses the hell out of list servers. But people will use it, increasingly it seems, and insist on doing so, so somehow this kind of problem needs to be dealt with. -- Lindsay Haisley | Real programmers use butterflies FMP Computer Services | 512-259-1190 | - xkcd http://www.fmp.com| -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
