Re: [Mailman-Users] Installation on Mac OSX
Hmmm, I had the same situation but I noticed it before I tried anything and just chown'd it all. I didn't look any further because I knew how to fix it. I don't _think_ I untarred as root. My only thought (fleeting at that) was that it was an artifact of being a bz2 tarball. Bill W - Original Message - From: "Dan Mick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 4:05 PM Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Installation on Mac OSX > > [smudette:~/mailman-2.0.8] mailman% ls -ld > > drwxrwsr-x 33 4101 4101 1078 Nov 27 17:54 . > > This is bad. How did you get unpacked source that's not owned > by any known user or group? -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Installation on Mac OSX
> > *Why* can't ./configure open conftest.py?
> >
> > To answer that question, obtain the following:
> >
> > 1) ls -ld of the containing directory ('.' in ./configure)
> >
> This bring up the following:
>
> [smudette:~/mailman-2.0.8] mailman% ls -ld
> drwxrwsr-x 33 4101 4101 1078 Nov 27 17:54 .
This is bad. How did you get unpacked source that's not owned
by any known user or group?
Once again, I refer you to INSTALL, section 2. Let me quote and
emphasize this time:
You should not be root while performing the steps in this section.
Do them under your own login, or whatever account you typically
install software as. You do not need to do these steps as user
mailman, but you could.
Make sure that you have write permissions to the target
^^^
installation directory, and permission to create a setgid file in
^
the file system where it resides (NFS and other mounts can be
configured to inhibit setgid settings).
> > 2) output of id *from the same state you're running ./configure*
> > (i.e. run ./configure and see the failure, and then immediately
> > run id at the next shell prompt)
>
> [smudette:~/mailman-2.0.8] mailman% id
> uid=5990(mailman) gid=0(wheel) groups=0(wheel), 5990(mailman)
User 'mailman' and group 'mailman' clearly do not have permission
to write '.'. This is clearly the problem. It has nothing at all
do to with Mailman, configure, or Python; this is strictly
a Unix file-permissions issue. If this still makes no sense
to you, I recommend getting some help from a more-experienced
Unix administrator local to you so you can have the back-and-forth
that will clarify the issue.
> To my non-mailman-expert eyes, it appears as though the user mailman
> with the UID of 5990 is in the groups wheel and mailman. It also
> appears the directory containing the distro is owned by a phantom user
> (4101).
>
> Now, to ask the same question again...
>
> Is there a permissions problem based on the owner:group of 4101 on the
> distro and the owner:group I wish to run/install mailman as? Is there a
> problem with the user 4101 (which doesn't exist on my system) trying to
> run configure or Python? Where do I need to make the changes to get
> this going?
You need to change the ownership and group of the sources before you
start. I always own the mailman sources with my own uid and group;
it's only the installation process that sets the real final
'mailman' and 'gid' permissions.
> Hopefully, this time, the question is clearer and I can get mailman up
> and running some time very soon.
Every line in INSTALL should be treated as important information, all
the more so if you don't fully understand it.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Installation on Mac OSX
On Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 03:07 PM, Dan Mick wrote:
> 1) all the symptoms of any problem are important, in computers,
> medicine,
> automobile repair, or psychology. There are three problems above:
Correct...
> 1) the configure program can't open conftest.py
> 2) the cat program can't open conftest.out
> 3) the configure program can't find the mailman user.
>
> Since conftest.out strongly hints that it comes from conftest.py,
> and since the errors appear in that order, it would be eminently
> reasonable to assume that 1) causes 2) causes 3).
>
I noted this earlier this morning (EST).
> So let's stop talking about 2) and 3) and focus on 1).
>
Finally...
> *Why* can't ./configure open conftest.py?
>
This is the question I posted this morning. I assumed it was a
permissions problem and possibly assumed incorrectly causing me to ask
the wrong question.
> To answer that question, obtain the following:
>
> 1) ls -ld of the containing directory ('.' in ./configure)
>
This bring up the following:
[smudette:~/mailman-2.0.8] mailman% ls -ld
drwxrwsr-x 33 4101 4101 1078 Nov 27 17:54 .
> 2) output of id *from the same state you're running ./configure*
> (i.e. run ./configure and see the failure, and then immediately
> run id at the next shell prompt)
[smudette:~/mailman-2.0.8] mailman% id
uid=5990(mailman) gid=0(wheel) groups=0(wheel), 5990(mailman)
To my non-mailman-expert eyes, it appears as though the user mailman
with the UID of 5990 is in the groups wheel and mailman. It also
appears the directory containing the distro is owned by a phantom user
(4101).
Now, to ask the same question again...
Is there a permissions problem based on the owner:group of 4101 on the
distro and the owner:group I wish to run/install mailman as? Is there a
problem with the user 4101 (which doesn't exist on my system) trying to
run configure or Python? Where do I need to make the changes to get
this going?
Hopefully, this time, the question is clearer and I can get mailman up
and running some time very soon.
-Michael
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Installation on Mac OSX
At 12:07 -0800 3/6/2002, Dan Mick wrote: >*Why* can't ./configure open conftest.py? I just wrote a less-well done version of your message. Fortunately, I didn't send it. I get the feeling that the configure script creates a customized conftest.py and THAT is the step that is going wrong (possibly due to lack of write permission on the containing directory). The configure files I've written are contained in this list [], so I think someone else has a better chance to carry on from here. --John -- John Baxter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Port Ludlow, WA, USA -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Installation on Mac OSX
> On Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 01:49 PM, Thomas Hillson wrote:
>
> > Did you look in the /etc/passd and /etc/group to see if the user and
> > group were actually placed there. OS-X does not put all the users and
> > groups in /etc files as it does not use them for all its functions. It
> > uses the Net-Info files which are different and not all users and
> > groups that I can created on my OS-X computer are in the passwd and
> > group files.
> >
> I just placed them there a moment ago, then re-ran the ./configure
> script and got:
>
> checking for mailman UID... ./configure: permission denied: conftest.py
> [1152]
> /usr/local/bin/python: can't open file 'conftest.py'
> cat: conftest.out: No such file or directory
>
> configure: error:
> * No "mailman" user found!
> * Your system must have a "mailman" user defined
> * (usually in your /etc/passwd file). Please see the INSTALL
> * file for details.
>
> I know there is a mailman user...I added it using niutil and have
> confirmed it's there. I also added the user and groups to the passwd
> and group files.
>
> from passwd:
> mailman:*:5990:5990:Mailman List Server:/Users/mailman:/bin/tcsh
>
> from group:
> mailman:*:5990:mailman
>
> -Michael
1) all the symptoms of any problem are important, in computers, medicine,
automobile repair, or psychology. There are three problems above:
1) the configure program can't open conftest.py
2) the cat program can't open conftest.out
3) the configure program can't find the mailman user.
Since conftest.out strongly hints that it comes from conftest.py,
and since the errors appear in that order, it would be eminently
reasonable to assume that 1) causes 2) causes 3).
So let's stop talking about 2) and 3) and focus on 1).
*Why* can't ./configure open conftest.py?
To answer that question, obtain the following:
1) ls -ld of the containing directory ('.' in ./configure)
2) output of id *from the same state you're running ./configure*
(i.e. run ./configure and see the failure, and then immediately
run id at the next shell prompt)
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Installation on Mac OSX
On Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 01:49 PM, Thomas Hillson wrote: > Did you look in the /etc/passd and /etc/group to see if the user and > group were actually placed there. OS-X does not put all the users and > groups in /etc files as it does not use them for all its functions. It > uses the Net-Info files which are different and not all users and > groups that I can created on my OS-X computer are in the passwd and > group files. > I just placed them there a moment ago, then re-ran the ./configure script and got: checking for mailman UID... ./configure: permission denied: conftest.py [1152] /usr/local/bin/python: can't open file 'conftest.py' cat: conftest.out: No such file or directory configure: error: * No "mailman" user found! * Your system must have a "mailman" user defined * (usually in your /etc/passwd file). Please see the INSTALL * file for details. I know there is a mailman user...I added it using niutil and have confirmed it's there. I also added the user and groups to the passwd and group files. from passwd: mailman:*:5990:5990:Mailman List Server:/Users/mailman:/bin/tcsh from group: mailman:*:5990:mailman -Michael -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Installation on Mac OSX
Michael, Did you look in the /etc/passd and /etc/group to see if the user and group were actually placed there. OS-X does not put all the users and groups in /etc files as it does not use them for all its functions. It uses the Net-Info files which are different and not all users and groups that I can created on my OS-X computer are in the passwd and group files. >On Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 08:10 PM, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: > >The master himself speaks! > >>Did you in fact create user mailman? It's complaining it doesn't exist. >> >I made the user and a group using Server Admin. Then, I tried on >OSX client using --with-groupname=staff and still had a problem. > >>If you've created it, it may be that mailman and/or python needs to be made >>netinfo aware. But I kjnow others have gotten mailman running fine under >>MacOS x. it's something I've got on my plate for Real Soon Now (in fact, >>talked ot my boss about that today) >> >I guess the trick is making one or both of them NetInfo aware. I >looked in the archives and didn't see anything on that specifically. >Know if someone like Scott Anguish has done anything with this? I >didn't see anything on stepwise. > >-Michael > > >-- >Mailman-Users maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users -- --Tom /- | Tom Hillson Computer Services Manager | [EMAIL PROTECTED] College of Agriculture | http://www.ag.iastate.edu Iowa State University | (515) 294-1543 phoneB2 Curtiss Hall | (515) 294-1349 fax Ames, IA 50011 >- |"The only thing I have too much of is too little time" -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Installation on Mac OSX and conftest.py
On Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 10:52 AM, Michael Johnson wrote: > checking for mailman UID... ./configure: permission denied: conftest.py > [1152] > /usr/local/bin/python: can't open file 'conftest.py' > cat: conftest.out: No such file or directory > I think I've been barking up the wrong tree. Looking more closely at the error, I see the above text. I've been trying to figure out why Python and mailman can't find the user "mailman" when that's possibly not the real problem. It would appear the problem lies in the file 'conftest.py'. Where is conftest.py located and what should the permissions be? 02755? mailman:mailman? -Michael -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Installation on Mac OSX
On Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 11:18 PM, David B. O'Donnell wrote: > You might want to take a look at the article I wrote for AFP548.com on > installing Mailman under Mac OS X Server: > http://www.afp548.com/Articles/mail/python-mailman.html> I don't > believe there are any steps to the process that are *specific* to Mac > OS X Server, though you may need to make some adjustments if you're not > also running Postfix as your MTA. Regardless, I've had Mailman 2.0.8 > running under Mac OS X Server for several months now and serve a number > of lists from it without problem. > I've been looking on this page for some time now, and noted one problem. Under the section to create a group, you have the niutil commands almost right. The first one is -create, but the others have to be -createprop. That stumped me for about 5 minutes. *GRIN* Then, I went to do the ./configure using: ./configure --prefix=/Users/mailman --with-mail-gid=6 --with-cgi-gid=www Yes, the mail GID on my machine is 6, but I didn't get that far. Once again, when I get to the part in the configure script where it looks for the users, it can't find the user mailman. Here's the last bit of the output of the script: checking for mailman UID... ./configure: permission denied: conftest.py [1152] /usr/local/bin/python: can't open file 'conftest.py' cat: conftest.out: No such file or directory configure: error: * No "mailman" user found! * Your system must have a "mailman" user defined * (usually in your /etc/passwd file). Please see the INSTALL * file for details. reading the NetInfo database, it shows the following: [smudette:/Developer/mailman-2.0.8] root# niutil -read / /users/mailman name: mailman uid: 5990 home: /Users/mailman shell: /bin/tcsh passwd: HkQS3pxAPyKbA [smudette:/Developer/mailman-2.0.8] root# niutil -read / /groups/mailman name: mailman gid: 5990 passwd: * users: mailman Yes, the GID and UID of 5990 were open so I used them just as the directions on the page described. Now, I'm really stumped. -Michael -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Installation on Mac OSX
On Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 12:19 AM, John W Baxter wrote: > At 20:29 -0500 3/5/2002, Michael Johnson wrote: >> I guess the trick is making one or both of them NetInfo aware. I >> looked >> in the archives and didn't see anything on that specifically. Know if >> someone like Scott Anguish has done anything with this? I didn't see >> anything on stepwise. > > I haven't updated Python on my Mac OS X machine since last Spring: > > This build is NetInfo aware with no special action: > % python > Python 2.1 (#1, 04/22/01, 11:06:25) > [GCC Apple DevKit-based CPP 6.0alpha] on darwin1 > Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. > > Do this (after the modern version of the above): > import pwd > print pwd.getpwall() > > Do you see all your NetInfo users? > I tried first on the OSX (10.1.3) G4/500 and it worked fine. Then I anxiously tried the OSXS (10.1.2) G4/400 and alas, it worked fine as well. All the users showed up perfectly. -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Installation on Mac OSX
At 20:29 -0500 3/5/2002, Michael Johnson wrote: >I guess the trick is making one or both of them NetInfo aware. I looked >in the archives and didn't see anything on that specifically. Know if >someone like Scott Anguish has done anything with this? I didn't see >anything on stepwise. I haven't updated Python on my Mac OS X machine since last Spring: This build is NetInfo aware with no special action: % python Python 2.1 (#1, 04/22/01, 11:06:25) [GCC Apple DevKit-based CPP 6.0alpha] on darwin1 Type "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information. Do this (after the modern version of the above): import pwd print pwd.getpwall() Do you see all your NetInfo users? --John -- John Baxter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Port Ludlow, WA, USA -- Mailman-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py
Re: [Mailman-Users] Installation on Mac OSX
On Tuesday, 05 March 2002 15:18 -0500 Michael Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Then, it happened... > > ./configure --prefix=/Users/mailman > > basic configure file output leading up to... > > checking for mailman UID... ./configure: permission denied: conftest.py > [1152] /usr/local/bin/python: can't open file 'conftest.py' > cat: conftest.out: No such file or directory Michael, You might want to take a look at the article I wrote for AFP548.com on installing Mailman under Mac OS X Server: http://www.afp548.com/Articles/mail/python-mailman.html> I don't believe there are any steps to the process that are *specific* to Mac OS X Server, though you may need to make some adjustments if you're not also running Postfix as your MTA. Regardless, I've had Mailman 2.0.8 running under Mac OS X Server for several months now and serve a number of lists from it without problem. -- David B. O'Donnell - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - www.fates.org Help rescue cats in need: Fancy Cats Rescue Team, www.fancycats.org "Thoughtful consumption is the enemy of marketing." -- Scott Hazen Mueller -- Mailman-Users maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Re: [Mailman-Users] Installation on Mac OSX
On Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 08:10 PM, Chuq Von Rospach wrote: The master himself speaks! > Did you in fact create user mailman? It's complaining it doesn't exist. > I made the user and a group using Server Admin. Then, I tried on OSX client using --with-groupname=staff and still had a problem. > If you've created it, it may be that mailman and/or python needs to be > made > netinfo aware. But I kjnow others have gotten mailman running fine under > MacOS x. it's something I've got on my plate for Real Soon Now (in fact, > talked ot my boss about that today) > I guess the trick is making one or both of them NetInfo aware. I looked in the archives and didn't see anything on that specifically. Know if someone like Scott Anguish has done anything with this? I didn't see anything on stepwise. -Michael -- Mailman-Users maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Re: [Mailman-Users] Installation on Mac OSX
Did you in fact create user mailman? It's complaining it doesn't exist. If you've created it, it may be that mailman and/or python needs to be made netinfo aware. But I kjnow others have gotten mailman running fine under MacOS x. it's something I've got on my plate for Real Soon Now (in fact, talked ot my boss about that today) On 3/5/02 4:26 PM, "Jon Carnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Alas, I havn't played with the Mac OSX (though folks in my LUG say it's > Xtremely cool...), so I don't know how the system sets users/groups. Some > other folks on this list in the past have written treatises about this very > subject. Perhaps a dive into the Archives will part the veils? > > Again, good luck. You've made it a fair distance already! > > Jon Carnes > --- Original Message: Tuesday 05 March 2002 05:22 pm --- > >>File "/Users/mailman/Mailman/Defaults.py", line 502, in ? >> MAILMAN_UID = mailman >> NameError: name 'mailman' is not defined >> >> Somehow, I made it through this in the ./configure portion of the game. >> Now, it appears as though a few of the Python scripts aren't happy. >> This is almost enough to make me want to go back to majordomo (ACK!! He >> said the "m" word!!!) but I think I'll hold off for a bit and see how >> this part of the saga plays out. -- Chuq Von Rospach, Architech [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chuqui.com/ Very funny, Scotty. Now beam my clothes down here, will you? -- Mailman-Users maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Re: [Mailman-Users] Installation on Mac OSX
Alas, I havn't played with the Mac OSX (though folks in my LUG say it's Xtremely cool...), so I don't know how the system sets users/groups. Some other folks on this list in the past have written treatises about this very subject. Perhaps a dive into the Archives will part the veils? Again, good luck. You've made it a fair distance already! Jon Carnes --- Original Message: Tuesday 05 March 2002 05:22 pm --- >File "/Users/mailman/Mailman/Defaults.py", line 502, in ? > MAILMAN_UID = mailman > NameError: name 'mailman' is not defined > > Somehow, I made it through this in the ./configure portion of the game. > Now, it appears as though a few of the Python scripts aren't happy. > This is almost enough to make me want to go back to majordomo (ACK!! He > said the "m" word!!!) but I think I'll hold off for a bit and see how > this part of the saga plays out. > > -Michael > > > -- > Mailman-Users maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users -- Mailman-Users maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Re: [Mailman-Users] Installation on Mac OSX
On Tuesday, March 5, 2002, at 04:29 PM, Jon Carnes wrote: > Whenever I have similar problems - which thankfully is not often - I > open up > the "configure" file and find the part where it died. Usually that is > fairly easy as it flows through the script linearly and you can see the > last > good output, and use that to find where the configure script has > problems. > Reading the file from that point on will indicate exactly what it is > looking > This worked for the most part...however, when I got to the setup portion (/Users/mailman/bin/check_perms), it failed. So I ran it with the -f flag to fix the problems. That's when I got the following output: [smudette:/Users/mailman] root# bin/check_perms -f Traceback (most recent call last): File "bin/check_perms", line 46, in ? from Mailman import mm_cfg File "/Users/mailman/Mailman/mm_cfg.py", line 41, in ? from Defaults import * File "/Users/mailman/Mailman/Defaults.py", line 502, in ? MAILMAN_UID = mailman NameError: name 'mailman' is not defined Somehow, I made it through this in the ./configure portion of the game. Now, it appears as though a few of the Python scripts aren't happy. This is almost enough to make me want to go back to majordomo (ACK!! He said the "m" word!!!) but I think I'll hold off for a bit and see how this part of the saga plays out. -Michael -- Mailman-Users maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Re: [Mailman-Users] Installation on Mac OSX
Whenever I have similar problems - which thankfully is not often - I open up the "configure" file and find the part where it died. Usually that is fairly easy as it flows through the script linearly and you can see the last good output, and use that to find where the configure script has problems. Reading the file from that point on will indicate exactly what it is looking for and what kind of a test it is using to find if it is present. Most times you can be up and running again after a few symlinks assuming you have a POSIX structure (unix like) to work with. Good Luck - Jon Carnes - Original Message - From: "Michael Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 3:18 PM Subject: [Mailman-Users] Installation on Mac OSX > Hi gang > > I've just installed Python and happily found it to be very simple. I > also noted the incredible speed difference between a 500 iceBook, a > G4/400, and a G4/500. > > Then it came time to install the mailman stuff. I downloaded 2.0.8 and > unpacked it. I went to add the user and group of mailman...no problem. > > Then, it happened... > > ./configure --prefix=/Users/mailman > > basic configure file output leading up to... > > checking for mailman UID... ./configure: permission denied: conftest.py > [1152] > /usr/local/bin/python: can't open file 'conftest.py' > cat: conftest.out: No such file or directory > > configure: error: > * No "mailman" user found! > * Your system must have a "mailman" user defined > * (usually in your /etc/passwd file). Please see the INSTALL > * file for details. > > I'm certain I have a user called mailman. I'm also certain there's a > group called mailman, but it doesn't seem to have gotten far enough to > tell if it's there. > > I know many of you have installed mailman...and I hope you can let me > know what I did wrong and lead me to the path of enlightenment. =-) > > -Michael > > > -- > Mailman-Users maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users -- Mailman-Users maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
[Mailman-Users] Installation on Mac OSX
Hi gang I've just installed Python and happily found it to be very simple. I also noted the incredible speed difference between a 500 iceBook, a G4/400, and a G4/500. Then it came time to install the mailman stuff. I downloaded 2.0.8 and unpacked it. I went to add the user and group of mailman...no problem. Then, it happened... ./configure --prefix=/Users/mailman basic configure file output leading up to... checking for mailman UID... ./configure: permission denied: conftest.py [1152] /usr/local/bin/python: can't open file 'conftest.py' cat: conftest.out: No such file or directory configure: error: * No "mailman" user found! * Your system must have a "mailman" user defined * (usually in your /etc/passwd file). Please see the INSTALL * file for details. I'm certain I have a user called mailman. I'm also certain there's a group called mailman, but it doesn't seem to have gotten far enough to tell if it's there. I know many of you have installed mailman...and I hope you can let me know what I did wrong and lead me to the path of enlightenment. =-) -Michael -- Mailman-Users maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
