[Mailman-Users] Re: Help with Topics

[Mark Sapiro]

On 10/15/20 1:41 PM, Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users wrote:
> On 10/13/20 3:51 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> For example, if topic1 has regexp \WMailman\W and topic2 has regexp
>> \Wlist\W, any message containing a Subject: or Topics: header or
>> pseudo header containing the word Mailman ...
> 
> What is a "pseudo header" in this context?
> 
> Are you referring to the first line of the message body being abused and
> treated like a header?


Not exactly. In order to support MUAs that make it difficult to add a
custom header such as Keywords: There is a topics_bodylines_limit
setting, described as:

topics_bodylines_limit (topics): How many body lines should the topic
matcher scan?

The topic matcher will scan this many lines of the message body looking
for topic keyword matches. Body scanning stops when either this many
lines have been looked at, or a non-header-like body line is
encountered. By setting this value to zero, no body lines will be
scanned (i.e. only the Keywords: and Subject: headers will be scanned).
By setting this value to a negative number, then all body lines will be
scanned until a non-header-like line is encountered.


In another post in this thread, I referred to a Topics: header, I meant
Keywords:, not Topics. As far as searching the message body for what I
referred to as pseudo-headers it will only look at an outer text/plain
part or a text/plain part within an outer multipart/alternative part,
and it will look at any lines up to topics_bodylines_limit or the first
non-header like line for Subject: or Keywords: matches.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: Help with Topics

[Grant Taylor via Mailman-Users]

On 10/13/20 3:51 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
For example, if topic1 has regexp \WMailman\W and topic2 has regexp 
\Wlist\W, any message containing a Subject: or Topics: header or pseudo 
header containing the word Mailman ...


What is a "pseudo header" in this context?

Are you referring to the first line of the message body being abused and 
treated like a header?




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[Mailman-Users] Re: Help with Topics

[Chip Davis]

Thank you, Gentlemen!

That was quite enlightening and _very_ helpful.

I'm very grateful for your extensive explanations and examples and am 
going to give Topics a try and see if the subscribers take to them.


-Chip-

On 10/13/2020 5:51 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

On 10/13/20 1:56 PM, Chip Davis wrote:

Thanks for the suggestion, Richard.

The only downside to that is that your 'Subject:' line now has least
three identifiers: the list-id, the admin-id, and the topic-id.

     Subject: [FlyGuys] [Admin] [B-26] Re: cockpit vent repair

I was hoping to avoid the Subject bloat, and it crossed my mind that the
list-id itself could be considered the common "topic".  I wasn't sure if
the string "[FlyGuys]" in the Subject would be recognized as a "topic",
or if it would be ignored because it was the list-id.  Or if it
mattered, since its primary purpose is to enable the "no-match filter"
option in the first place.


As noted in another reply, matching on subject_prefix won't work.

Also, I don't understand 'subject bloat'

Consider defining a topic named Get_only_nonmatchind with a regexp ov say

^This_is_a_bogus_topic_that_I_hope_will_never_match_a_real_message_ig35yth3hg3ot4ohj430$

And a description of say

Subscribe to this topic and enable receiving messages that don't match
any topic to receive only messages that don't match any other topic.



Any insights would be appreciated.

Question 2: If a 'Subject:' line has multiple topic-ids, will a copy of
the posting will be sent to the union set of members of the topics?

Short answer - Yes

What you call multiple topic IDs are actually just things that match a
topic regexp.

For example, if topic1 has regexp \WMailman\W and topic2 has regexp
\Wlist\W, any message containing a Subject: or Topics: header or pseudo
header containing the word Mailman (matched case insensitively) will be
delivered to every regular member subscribed to topic1 plus those
subscribed to no topics. Any message containing a Subject: or Topics:
header or pseudo header containing the word list (matched case
insensitively) will be delivered to every regular member subscribed to
topic2 plus those subscribed to no topics. Any message containing a
Subject: or Topics: header or pseudo header containing both the words
Mailman and list (matched case insensitively) will be delivered to every
regular member subscribed to topic1 plus those subscribed to topic2 plus
those subscribed to no topics.



IOW, if a member is subscribed to those topics will he get multiple
copies in that case?

No.


Question 3: What effect do Topics have on subscribers receiving the
Digest?  Are they effectively subscribed to all Topics?


Digests contain all messages without any regard to topics.



I see great potential for the use of Topics in our group, but I don't
know where to find the answers besides here.




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[Mailman-Users] Re: Help with Topics

[Mark Sapiro]

On 10/13/20 1:56 PM, Chip Davis wrote:
> Thanks for the suggestion, Richard.
> 
> The only downside to that is that your 'Subject:' line now has least
> three identifiers: the list-id, the admin-id, and the topic-id.
> 
>     Subject: [FlyGuys] [Admin] [B-26] Re: cockpit vent repair
> 
> I was hoping to avoid the Subject bloat, and it crossed my mind that the
> list-id itself could be considered the common "topic".  I wasn't sure if
> the string "[FlyGuys]" in the Subject would be recognized as a "topic",
> or if it would be ignored because it was the list-id.  Or if it
> mattered, since its primary purpose is to enable the "no-match filter"
> option in the first place.


As noted in another reply, matching on subject_prefix won't work.

Also, I don't understand 'subject bloat'

Consider defining a topic named Get_only_nonmatchind with a regexp ov say

^This_is_a_bogus_topic_that_I_hope_will_never_match_a_real_message_ig35yth3hg3ot4ohj430$

And a description of say

Subscribe to this topic and enable receiving messages that don't match
any topic to receive only messages that don't match any other topic.


> Any insights would be appreciated.
> 
> Question 2: If a 'Subject:' line has multiple topic-ids, will a copy of
> the posting will be sent to the union set of members of the topics? 

Short answer - Yes

What you call multiple topic IDs are actually just things that match a
topic regexp.

For example, if topic1 has regexp \WMailman\W and topic2 has regexp
\Wlist\W, any message containing a Subject: or Topics: header or pseudo
header containing the word Mailman (matched case insensitively) will be
delivered to every regular member subscribed to topic1 plus those
subscribed to no topics. Any message containing a Subject: or Topics:
header or pseudo header containing the word list (matched case
insensitively) will be delivered to every regular member subscribed to
topic2 plus those subscribed to no topics. Any message containing a
Subject: or Topics: header or pseudo header containing both the words
Mailman and list (matched case insensitively) will be delivered to every
regular member subscribed to topic1 plus those subscribed to topic2 plus
those subscribed to no topics.


> IOW, if a member is subscribed to those topics will he get multiple
> copies in that case?

No.

> Question 3: What effect do Topics have on subscribers receiving the
> Digest?  Are they effectively subscribed to all Topics?


Digests contain all messages without any regard to topics.


> I see great potential for the use of Topics in our group, but I don't
> know where to find the answers besides here.


-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Help with Topics

[Richard Damon]

I wouldn't have an message tag [Admin] that is also with a normal topic.
[Admin] is for broad notices, like reporting that the hosting company
needs to hold the list for a bit to do an update. Thus only two tags on
the message.

You only get 1 copy of the message, as long as it matches at least one
of your selected topic ids. (I'm pretty sure that is how it works)

Digests totally ignore topics, all digest users get the same digest.


On 10/13/20 4:56 PM, Chip Davis wrote:
> Thanks for the suggestion, Richard.
>
> The only downside to that is that your 'Subject:' line now has least
> three identifiers: the list-id, the admin-id, and the topic-id.
>
>     Subject: [FlyGuys] [Admin] [B-26] Re: cockpit vent repair
>
> I was hoping to avoid the Subject bloat, and it crossed my mind that
> the list-id itself could be considered the common "topic".  I wasn't
> sure if the string "[FlyGuys]" in the Subject would be recognized as a
> "topic", or if it would be ignored because it was the list-id.  Or if
> it mattered, since its primary purpose is to enable the "no-match
> filter" option in the first place.
>
> Any insights would be appreciated.
>
> Question 2: If a 'Subject:' line has multiple topic-ids, will a copy
> of the posting will be sent to the union set of members of the
> topics?  IOW, if a member is subscribed to those topics will he get
> multiple copies in that case?
>
> Question 3: What effect do Topics have on subscribers receiving the
> Digest?  Are they effectively subscribed to all Topics?
>
> I see great potential for the use of Topics in our group, but I don't
> know where to find the answers besides here.
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Chip-
>
> On 10/13/2020 3:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:
>> I create one topic that I request everyone using topic to select for
>> important administrative messages from the moderator of the list. That
>> gives them something to select if they don't want any of the normal
>> topics.
>>
>> On 10/13/20 3:21 PM, Chip Davis wrote:
>>> I'm trying to set up Topics for a Mailman 2.1.33 list I administer,
>>> and I'm a tad confused.
>>>
>>> There appears to be no combination of options to allow a member of a
>>> list to see _only_ non-topic-specific postings.
>>>
>>> If you select one or more topics of interest, you will receive the
>>> postings under those topics.  You will not receive any
>>> _topic-specific_ postings that do not match your selections.
>>> Furthermore, if you have also set "Do you want to receive messages
>>> that do not match any topic filter?" to 'Yes', you will also receive
>>> all messages that are _not_ associated with a topic.  Otherwise, you
>>> will receive _only_ the postings associated with your selected
>>> topics.  (This appears to function as expected.)
>>>
>>> However, if you have not selected any topics, you will receive all
>>> postings, whether topic-specific or not, regardless the setting of "Do
>>> you want to receive messages that do not match any topic filter?".
>>>
>>> I would like to offer the members of my lists the option of receiving:
>>>    1. All of the postings to the list [All topic categories selected +
>>> no-match filter=Yes]
>>>    2. Specific topics and all non-topic postings [At least one topic
>>> category selected + no-match filter=Yes]
>>>    3. Specific topics only [At least one topic category selected +
>>> no-match filter=No]
>>>    4. Only _non-topic_ postings [No topic categories selected +
>>> no-match filter=No]
>>>
>>> Apparently that is not the heuristic being applied.  If no topic
>>> categories are selected, the no-match filter setting is ignored (i.e.
>>> defaults to 'Yes') effectively delivering all listserver traffic to
>>> that user, and eliminating option 4.  This is "as documented" and
>>> embarrassingly empirically demonstrated.  :-/
>>>
>>> There seems to be no obvious way to say "I want to see only those
>>> postings that are not topic-specific".
>>>
>>> If I put the list's subject_prefix in as the Topic1 regexp (escaped as
>>> necessary), would the member be able to select it and specify
>>> 'no-match filter=No' to receive _only_ the non-topic-specific
>>> postings?  (I would test this question myself, but see "embarrassingly
>>> empirically demonstrated", above.)
>>>
>>> If this question has already been addressed in a document somewhere,
>>> please point me to it.
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> -Chip-
>
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-- 
Richard Damon
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To 

[Mailman-Users] Re: Help with Topics

[Mark Sapiro]

On 10/13/20 12:21 PM, Chip Davis wrote:
> 
> There appears to be no combination of options to allow a member of a
> list to see _only_ non-topic-specific postings.


Correct, but as Richard Damon notes, you can define an otherwise unused
(with a regexp that will probably never match) or a special announcement
topic and then users who want only posts which match no other topic can
subscribe to that one and also select Yes for "Do you want to receive
messages that do not match any topic filter".


> If you select one or more topics of interest, you will receive the
> postings under those topics.  You will not receive any _topic-specific_
> postings that do not match your selections.  Furthermore, if you have
> also set "Do you want to receive messages that do not match any topic
> filter?" to 'Yes', you will also receive all messages that are _not_
> associated with a topic.  Otherwise, you will receive _only_ the
> postings associated with your selected topics.  (This appears to
> function as expected.)


Correct.


> However, if you have not selected any topics, you will receive all
> postings, whether topic-specific or not, regardless the setting of "Do
> you want to receive messages that do not match any topic filter?".


Also correct.


> I would like to offer the members of my lists the option of receiving:
>   1. All of the postings to the list [All topic categories selected +
> no-match filter=Yes]

Or just don't select any topics.


>   2. Specific topics and all non-topic postings [At least one topic
> category selected + no-match filter=Yes]
>   3. Specific topics only [At least one topic category selected +
> no-match filter=No]
>   4. Only _non-topic_ postings [No topic categories selected + no-match
> filter=No]
> 
> Apparently that is not the heuristic being applied.  If no topic
> categories are selected, the no-match filter setting is ignored (i.e.
> defaults to 'Yes') effectively delivering all listserver traffic to that
> user, and eliminating option 4.  This is "as documented" and
> embarrassingly empirically demonstrated.  :-/


Correct again. If you don't subscribe to any topics, you receive all
posts regardless of topic.

So you have everything but item 4 in the current situation.


> There seems to be no obvious way to say "I want to see only those
> postings that are not topic-specific".


That is correct, but there are ways (see above).


> If I put the list's subject_prefix in as the Topic1 regexp (escaped as
> necessary), would the member be able to select it and specify 'no-match
> filter=No' to receive _only_ the non-topic-specific postings?  (I would
> test this question myself, but see "embarrassingly empirically
> demonstrated", above.)


No, this won't work because the topic matches and recipients are
computed before the subject_prefix is added.


There is also a now quite old branch at
 that implements 4.
The actual implementation is at


Please note that there are no plans to make any changes to MM 2.1 topics
as currently implemented.

An implementation of Mailman 2.1 topics is not in Mailman 3, and
probably won't ever be. The thought for Mailman 3 is to enable 'dynamic
sublists' which would allow users to (un)subscribe to specific threads
on the fly, but no one is currently working on this See
https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-us...@mailman3.org/thread/3K3UHHS3CMR5QE5PWN3RLWIWJC7G27YI/>.

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Help with Topics

[Chip Davis]

Thanks for the suggestion, Richard.

The only downside to that is that your 'Subject:' line now has least 
three identifiers: the list-id, the admin-id, and the topic-id.


    Subject: [FlyGuys] [Admin] [B-26] Re: cockpit vent repair

I was hoping to avoid the Subject bloat, and it crossed my mind that 
the list-id itself could be considered the common "topic".  I wasn't 
sure if the string "[FlyGuys]" in the Subject would be recognized as a 
"topic", or if it would be ignored because it was the list-id.  Or if 
it mattered, since its primary purpose is to enable the "no-match 
filter" option in the first place.


Any insights would be appreciated.

Question 2: If a 'Subject:' line has multiple topic-ids, will a copy 
of the posting will be sent to the union set of members of the 
topics?  IOW, if a member is subscribed to those topics will he get 
multiple copies in that case?


Question 3: What effect do Topics have on subscribers receiving the 
Digest?  Are they effectively subscribed to all Topics?


I see great potential for the use of Topics in our group, but I don't 
know where to find the answers besides here.


Thanks!

-Chip-

On 10/13/2020 3:57 PM, Richard Damon wrote:

I create one topic that I request everyone using topic to select for
important administrative messages from the moderator of the list. That
gives them something to select if they don't want any of the normal topics.

On 10/13/20 3:21 PM, Chip Davis wrote:

I'm trying to set up Topics for a Mailman 2.1.33 list I administer,
and I'm a tad confused.

There appears to be no combination of options to allow a member of a
list to see _only_ non-topic-specific postings.

If you select one or more topics of interest, you will receive the
postings under those topics.  You will not receive any
_topic-specific_ postings that do not match your selections.
Furthermore, if you have also set "Do you want to receive messages
that do not match any topic filter?" to 'Yes', you will also receive
all messages that are _not_ associated with a topic.  Otherwise, you
will receive _only_ the postings associated with your selected
topics.  (This appears to function as expected.)

However, if you have not selected any topics, you will receive all
postings, whether topic-specific or not, regardless the setting of "Do
you want to receive messages that do not match any topic filter?".

I would like to offer the members of my lists the option of receiving:
   1. All of the postings to the list [All topic categories selected +
no-match filter=Yes]
   2. Specific topics and all non-topic postings [At least one topic
category selected + no-match filter=Yes]
   3. Specific topics only [At least one topic category selected +
no-match filter=No]
   4. Only _non-topic_ postings [No topic categories selected +
no-match filter=No]

Apparently that is not the heuristic being applied.  If no topic
categories are selected, the no-match filter setting is ignored (i.e.
defaults to 'Yes') effectively delivering all listserver traffic to
that user, and eliminating option 4.  This is "as documented" and
embarrassingly empirically demonstrated.  :-/

There seems to be no obvious way to say "I want to see only those
postings that are not topic-specific".

If I put the list's subject_prefix in as the Topic1 regexp (escaped as
necessary), would the member be able to select it and specify
'no-match filter=No' to receive _only_ the non-topic-specific
postings?  (I would test this question myself, but see "embarrassingly
empirically demonstrated", above.)

If this question has already been addressed in a document somewhere,
please point me to it.

Thanks!

-Chip-


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[Mailman-Users] Re: Help with Topics

[Mark Sapiro]

On 10/13/20 12:21 PM, Chip Davis wrote:
> [Re-sent after not getting my copy back from the listserver after five
> hours.]


It's been delivered now. The issue is greylisting combined with the fact
that different servers with significantly different IP addresses at
relay.mailchannels.net are doing the retries.


-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Help with Topics

[Richard Damon]

I create one topic that I request everyone using topic to select for
important administrative messages from the moderator of the list. That
gives them something to select if they don't want any of the normal topics.

On 10/13/20 3:21 PM, Chip Davis wrote:
> [Re-sent after not getting my copy back from the listserver after five
> hours.]
>
> I'm trying to set up Topics for a Mailman 2.1.33 list I administer,
> and I'm a tad confused.
>
> There appears to be no combination of options to allow a member of a
> list to see _only_ non-topic-specific postings.
>
> If you select one or more topics of interest, you will receive the
> postings under those topics.  You will not receive any
> _topic-specific_ postings that do not match your selections. 
> Furthermore, if you have also set "Do you want to receive messages
> that do not match any topic filter?" to 'Yes', you will also receive
> all messages that are _not_ associated with a topic.  Otherwise, you
> will receive _only_ the postings associated with your selected
> topics.  (This appears to function as expected.)
>
> However, if you have not selected any topics, you will receive all
> postings, whether topic-specific or not, regardless the setting of "Do
> you want to receive messages that do not match any topic filter?".
>
> I would like to offer the members of my lists the option of receiving:
>   1. All of the postings to the list [All topic categories selected +
> no-match filter=Yes]
>   2. Specific topics and all non-topic postings [At least one topic
> category selected + no-match filter=Yes]
>   3. Specific topics only [At least one topic category selected +
> no-match filter=No]
>   4. Only _non-topic_ postings [No topic categories selected +
> no-match filter=No]
>
> Apparently that is not the heuristic being applied.  If no topic
> categories are selected, the no-match filter setting is ignored (i.e.
> defaults to 'Yes') effectively delivering all listserver traffic to
> that user, and eliminating option 4.  This is "as documented" and
> embarrassingly empirically demonstrated.  :-/
>
> There seems to be no obvious way to say "I want to see only those
> postings that are not topic-specific".
>
> If I put the list's subject_prefix in as the Topic1 regexp (escaped as
> necessary), would the member be able to select it and specify
> 'no-match filter=No' to receive _only_ the non-topic-specific
> postings?  (I would test this question myself, but see "embarrassingly
> empirically demonstrated", above.)
>
> If this question has already been addressed in a document somewhere,
> please point me to it.
>
> Thanks!
>
> -Chip-
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-- 
Richard Damon
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