[Mailman-Users] Re: Hevy resource footprint forces backdrop to mailman 2.1

[Mark Sapiro]

On 10/14/22 16:42, Martin Lorenz wrote:

everything is nice and silky again ...



And your site looks good to me.

If you have further questions about this, please join the 
mailman-us...@mailman3.org list at 
https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-us...@mailman3.org/ 
and post there. Mailman3 issues are really off topic for the 
mailman-users@python.org list.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: Hevy resource footprint forces backdrop to mailman 2.1

[Martin Lorenz]

everything is nice and silky again ...

that's what I finally did to the database:
```
sudo -u postgres psql
postgres=# \connect mailmanweb 
mailmanweb=# insert into django_site(id, domain, name) values (1, 
'example.com', '');
INSERT 0 1
mailmanweb=# insert into django_mailman3_maildomain(id, mail_domain, site_id) 
values (0, 'example.com', 1);
INSERT 0 1
```
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Hevy resource footprint forces backdrop to mailman 2.1

[Martin Lorenz]

i think, I hit a bug 

I had mailman up and running, sent testmails to a testlist, used the 
webinterface ...
but than I played around with the domains.
I had added one of my domains for the test list but in the archive interface I 
still had "example.com" as a header. so I switched over to the domain admin 
panel and deleted example.com

and now everything is broken ...

I only get errors from django and the mailman process runs amok whenever it 
gets work to do.
very strange 
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Hevy resource footprint forces backdrop to mailman 2.1

[Martin Lorenz]

heureka!

added two lines to the nginx config and now it seems up and running ...

_location_ now looks like this:
```
location / {
   proxy_pass http://127.0.0.1:8000;
   proxy_set_header Host $host;
   proxy_set_header X-Forwarded-For $remote_addr;

   proxy_set_header X-Forwarded-Proto $scheme;
   proxy_set_header X-Forwarded-Host $host;
   }

```

will test nor and try to import my old lists tomorrow (it's already way past 
midnight here)
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Hevy resource footprint forces backdrop to mailman 2.1

[Martin Lorenz]

thanks, that one did the trick

I think I kint of got ist up and running now.
this ist how the site looks:
https://list.poc.im/mailman3/lists/

I don't think, it should be like that.
I already added 
```
location /static/ {
 alias /opt/mailman/web/static;
}
```
to my nginx config, but without a change ...
what am I missing?
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Hevy resource footprint forces backdrop to mailman 2.1

[Mark Sapiro]

On 10/14/22 13:59, Martin Lorenz wrote:

OK
thanks for the advice.

I started installing following the path ...

the first error I hit is:
```

...

   File "/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/hyperkitty/lib/renderer.py", 
line 6, in 
 from mistune.plugins.extra import plugin_url
ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'mistune.plugins.extra'



Sorry, that's https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/-/issues/437

It is also not clear if you will also encounter 
https://gitlab.com/mailman/hyperkitty/-/issues/431


If your HyperKitty is version 1.3.5 installed from PyPI, the simplest 
solution is to downgrade mistune to 2.0.0rc1 in your venv

```
pip install mistune==2.0.0rc1
```

Alternatively you can downgrade to mistune<3.0
```
pip install mistune<3.0
```
But then you also need to ensure that line 7 in 
/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/hyperkitty/lib/renderer.py is

```
from mistune.util import escape_html, escape_url
```
and not
```
from mistune.scanner import escape_html, escape_url
```

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[Mailman-Users] Re: Hevy resource footprint forces backdrop to mailman 2.1

[Martin Lorenz]

OK 
thanks for the advice.

I started installing following the path ...

the first error I hit is:
```
(venv) mailman@arda:/etc/mailman3$ mailman-web migrate
Traceback (most recent call last):
  File 
"/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/django/template/utils.py", line 
66, in __getitem__
return self._engines[alias]
KeyError: 'django'

During handling of the above exception, another exception occurred:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File 
"/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/django/template/backends/django.py",
 line 121, in get_package_libraries
module = import_module(entry[1])
  File "/usr/lib/python3.9/importlib/__init__.py", line 127, in import_module
return _bootstrap._gcd_import(name[level:], package, level)
  File "", line 1030, in _gcd_import
  File "", line 1007, in _find_and_load
  File "", line 986, in _find_and_load_unlocked
  File "", line 680, in _load_unlocked
  File "", line 790, in exec_module
  File "", line 228, in _call_with_frames_removed
  File 
"/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/hyperkitty/templatetags/decorate.py",
 line 4, in 
from hyperkitty.lib.renderer import markdown_renderer, text_renderer
  File 
"/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/hyperkitty/lib/renderer.py", 
line 6, in 
from mistune.plugins.extra import plugin_url
ModuleNotFoundError: No module named 'mistune.plugins.extra'

During handling of the above exception, another exception occurred:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "/opt/mailman/venv/bin/mailman-web", line 8, in 
sys.exit(main())
  File "/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/mailman_web/manage.py", 
line 30, in main
execute_from_command_line(sys.argv)
  File 
"/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/django/core/management/__init__.py",
 line 401, in execute_from_command_line
utility.execute()
  File 
"/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/django/core/management/__init__.py",
 line 395, in execute
self.fetch_command(subcommand).run_from_argv(self.argv)
  File 
"/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/django/core/management/base.py", 
line 328, in run_from_argv
self.execute(*args, **cmd_options)
  File 
"/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/django/core/management/base.py", 
line 366, in execute
self.check()
  File 
"/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/django/core/management/base.py", 
line 392, in check
all_issues = self._run_checks(
  File 
"/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/django/core/management/commands/migrate.py",
 line 64, in _run_checks
issues.extend(super()._run_checks(**kwargs))
  File 
"/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/django/core/management/base.py", 
line 382, in _run_checks
return checks.run_checks(**kwargs)
  File 
"/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/django/core/checks/registry.py", 
line 72, in run_checks
new_errors = check(app_configs=app_configs)
  File 
"/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/django/contrib/admin/checks.py", 
line 76, in check_dependencies
for engine in engines.all():
  File 
"/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/django/template/utils.py", line 
90, in all
return [self[alias] for alias in self]
  File 
"/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/django/template/utils.py", line 
90, in 
return [self[alias] for alias in self]
  File 
"/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/django/template/utils.py", line 
81, in __getitem__
engine = engine_cls(params)
  File 
"/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/django/template/backends/django.py",
 line 25, in __init__
options['libraries'] = self.get_templatetag_libraries(libraries)
  File 
"/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/django/template/backends/django.py",
 line 43, in get_templatetag_libraries
libraries = get_installed_libraries()
  File 
"/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/django/template/backends/django.py",
 line 108, in get_installed_libraries
for name in get_package_libraries(pkg):
  File 
"/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages/django/template/backends/django.py",
 line 123, in get_package_libraries
raise InvalidTemplateLibrary(
django.template.library.InvalidTemplateLibrary: Invalid template library 
specified. ImportError raised when trying to load 
'hyperkitty.templatetags.decorate': No module named 'mistune.plugins.extra'
```
```
(venv) mailman@arda:/etc/mailman3$ pip install mistune
Requirement already satisfied: mistune in 
/opt/mailman/venv/lib/python3.9/site-packages (3.0.0rc1)
```
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Hevy resource footprint forces backdrop to mailman 2.1

[Mark Sapiro]

On 10/14/22 09:56, Martin Lorenz wrote:

Now I will start over ...

First of all: do you recommend the debian package install or the manual one?

```
Package mailman3:
p   3.3.3-1 
   stable   
  
Package mailman3-doc:
p   3.3.3-1 
   stable   
  
Package mailman3-full:
p   3.3.3-1 
   stable
Package mailman3-web:
p   0+20200530-2
   stable
Package python3-django-mailman3:
i   1.3.5-2 
   stable
Package python3-mailman-hyperkitty:
p   1.1.0-10
   stable
Package python3-mailmanclient:
i   3.3.2-1 
   stable

# cat /etc/os-release
PRETTY_NAME="Debian GNU/Linux 11 (bullseye)"
```



Those Debian packages are mostly quite out of date. If you are willing 
to tolerate that, installation of the packages should be easier, but 
judging from posts on the mailman-us...@mailman3.org list, not everyone 
finds it so.


I definitely suggest installing following 
https://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/install/virtualenv.html, not only 
because you will get the benefit of bug fixes that aren't in the Debian 
packages, but people who might offer help via the 
mailman-us...@mailman3.org list are usually more familiar with the 
virtualenv install than with the Debian packages.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: Hevy resource footprint forces backdrop to mailman 2.1

[Martin Lorenz]

Now I will start over ...

First of all: do you recommend the debian package install or the manual one?

```
Package mailman3:
p   3.3.3-1 
   stable   
  
Package mailman3-doc:
p   3.3.3-1 
   stable   
  
Package mailman3-full:
p   3.3.3-1 
   stable   
  
Package mailman3-web:
p   0+20200530-2
   stable   
  
Package python3-django-mailman3:
i   1.3.5-2 
   stable   
  
Package python3-mailman-hyperkitty:
p   1.1.0-10
   stable   
  
Package python3-mailmanclient:
i   3.3.2-1 
   stable   
  

# cat /etc/os-release 
PRETTY_NAME="Debian GNU/Linux 11 (bullseye)"
```
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Hevy resource footprint forces backdrop to mailman 2.1

[Mark Dale via Mailman-Users]

On 2022-10-10 23:14, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:


  > so I had to switch to a new provider. The new v-server is
  > debian-based.  the release is bullseye which does still provide ...





... browse both the "venv" installation described in
our docs at https://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/install/virtualenv.html
and Brian Carpenter's Debian installation guide at
https://wiki.list.org/DOC/Howto_Install_Mailman3_On_Debian10.  Then
choose the guide you find more compatible with your thinking, and
follow that.




See also: "Installing Mailman3 on Debian 11": Tom Kisner -- Jul 9, 2022

https://kn6q.org/installing-mailman-3-on-debian-11


Kelly Close's guide "Mailman 3 Setup Using Ubuntu Bionic" works for Debian 
Bullseye.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xIcSsoNFp2nHi7r4eQys00s9a0k2sHhu1V5PlantPTs/edit





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[Mailman-Users] Re: Hevy resource footprint forces backdrop to mailman 2.1

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Martin Lorenz writes:

 > so I had to switch to a new provider. The new v-server is
 > debian-based.  the release is bullseye which does still provide
 > python2 but lacks a few packages that are necessery to install
 > mailman2.1 I would have to manually install dependencies via pip
 > instead of apt.

As long as you have necessary access to install, that should not be a
problem.

 > The problem occurs whenever mail ist sent to a migrated list.
 > All mails sent to the lists I migrated from my old 2.1 instance (23
 > lists in total) are swallowed and never get delivered.

That sounds a lot more like MTA configuration problems or network
configuration problems than resource usage.

 > I have not found out where they are.

IIRC Debian puts queues in /var/lib/mailman3/queue/.  Look in ../shunt
in particular (that queue swallows posts that for some reason Mailman
is unable to process, and you have to do something to fix the problem
-- there's no automatic retry for those).

> There are no errors in the logs.

Which logs are you looking at specifically?


> 1 was only because I quickly needed a working solution - which I did
> not get.

Unfortunately, I don't know of a quick working solution from any OS
distro.  All the distros either provide very old versions, or we have
reports of difficulties configuring them.  The closest thing to a
turnkey solution are Abhilash's docker containers, but even there it's
non-trivial.  My recommendation (FWIW, now that you've already gotten
started it may not make sense to start over from scratch) is that you
get yourself a nice stable distro with at least Python 3.8 (better 3.9
or 3.10) installed, browse both the "venv" installation described in
our docs at https://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/install/virtualenv.html
and Brian Carpenter's Debian installation guide at
https://wiki.list.org/DOC/Howto_Install_Mailman3_On_Debian10.  Then
choose the guide you find more compatible with your thinking, and
follow that.

 > thank you for the help you offer.
 > The time I can invest on the subject is rather limited for the coming week.
 > from Oct. 14 on I can dive into it :)

OK, no hurry.  We'll be here when you're ready.

Steve

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[Mailman-Users] Re: Hevy resource footprint forces backdrop to mailman 2.1

[Martin Lorenz]

Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Martin Lorenz writes:
> > I am afraid, mailman3 needs far too much system resources for this
> > virtual server.
> > This whole story doesn't make much sense to me.  You switched to a new
> virtual server because Mailman 2 isn't supported but imply that
> Mailman 3 is, but you can't get support from your vendor?  Do you mean
> that *Python* 2 is not supported but *Python* 3 is?

to clarify the history:
the provider of my old v-server ceased its service.
so I had to switch to a new provider. The new v-server is debian-based.
the release is bullseye which does still provide python2 but lacks a few 
packages that are necessery to install mailman2.1
I would have to manually install dependencies via pip instead of apt.

> Then, as far as I can tell on my hosts, Mailman 3 does not use a lot
> more resources than Mailman 2.1 to process email, because it's
> basically the same processing model.  By "doing anything," do you mean
> posting to lists?  Migrating lists?  Creating and managing lists with
> Postorius?  Migrating archives?  Accessing archives and posting via
> HyperKitty?

The problem occurs whenever mail ist sent to a migrated list.
All mails sent to the lists I migrated from my old 2.1 instance (23 lists in 
total) are swallowed and never get delivered.
I have not found out where they are. There are no errors in the logs. exim 
accepts the mail, hands it over to mailman without error but never gets it back 
for delivery.

A few mails turn up in the archive but must don't.


> Python 2 is *unsupported* and likely to have security issues (in
> particular, it probably allows SSL/TLS connections now considered
> insecure).  Mailman 2 is also end-of-life, and may have security
> issues (although Mark continues to accept patches and even fix them
> occasionally, he keeps promising to stop "soon").  You're asking for
> endless hurt if you get into trouble with Mailman 2.  (I don't think
> it's likely except maybe a botnet will take your virtual server over
> for Bitcoin mining or DDoS attacks, but if it happens it will be bad.)
> Like Mark, I recommend that you at least let us try to help you to
> figure out why the virtual server fails to run Mailman 3.  Are you
> sure the new virtual server will handle the load of Mailman 2?  Maybe
> it's just too small for the job of handling mailing lists.

the new server is way stronger than the old one.

> If you're not willing to upgrade, you're going to need to install

I am more than willing to go with mailman3 if I can get it up and running.
I currently try to retire all my python2 dependencies so going fo mailman2.1 
was only because I quickly needed a working solution - which I did not get.
Currently all users and admins of my lists know, that they have to be patient...

thank you for the help you offer.
The time I can invest on the subject is rather limited for the coming week.
from Oct. 14 on I can dive into it :)

greets 
martin
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Hevy resource footprint forces backdrop to mailman 2.1

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Martin Lorenz writes:

 > I am afraid, mailman3 needs far too much system resources for this
 > virtual server.

This whole story doesn't make much sense to me.  You switched to a new
virtual server because Mailman 2 isn't supported but imply that
Mailman 3 is, but you can't get support from your vendor?  Do you mean
that *Python* 2 is not supported but *Python* 3 is?

Then, as far as I can tell on my hosts, Mailman 3 does not use a lot
more resources than Mailman 2.1 to process email, because it's
basically the same processing model.  By "doing anything," do you mean
posting to lists?  Migrating lists?  Creating and managing lists with
Postorius?  Migrating archives?  Accessing archives and posting via
HyperKitty?

Python 2 is *unsupported* and likely to have security issues (in
particular, it probably allows SSL/TLS connections now considered
insecure).  Mailman 2 is also end-of-life, and may have security
issues (although Mark continues to accept patches and even fix them
occasionally, he keeps promising to stop "soon").  You're asking for
endless hurt if you get into trouble with Mailman 2.  (I don't think
it's likely except maybe a botnet will take your virtual server over
for Bitcoin mining or DDoS attacks, but if it happens it will be bad.)

Like Mark, I recommend that you at least let us try to help you to
figure out why the virtual server fails to run Mailman 3.  Are you
sure the new virtual server will handle the load of Mailman 2?  Maybe
it's just too small for the job of handling mailing lists.

If you're not willing to upgrade, you're going to need to install
Python 2, and a few packages.  You'll need to get support from your
virtual server provider and/or the OS vendor for that, we can't help
you.  It's possible that they're EOL at the OS vendor as well.  (I was
looking to install Python 3.8 on my Debian system to support a user
who's stuck on 3.8 for corporate QA reasons, and surprise! it's not on
their principal mirrors any more.  There are Linux distros that never
supported Python 2, they were on Python 3 from the start.)  Python 2 is
deeply embedded in some ecosystems, so most likely your OS vender
still delivers the most recent Python 2.7.  But you can be sure Python
2-compatible packages are bitrotting in most cases, including those
that support Mailman.

Regards,
Steve


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[Mailman-Users] Re: Hevy resource footprint forces backdrop to mailman 2.1

[Martin Lorenz]

Mark Sapiro wrote:
> https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-2718/ but it would be 
> much better to fix your Mailman 3 issues.

I am afraid, mailman3 needs far too much system resources for this virtual 
server.
I had it up and running but system load shoot up to values beyond 10 whenever 
mailman3 had to process something.
htop showed the mailman processes eating up all memory until I couldn't even 
kill them remotely but had to do a hard shutdown via the management console.

I never had this with mailman2
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Hevy resource footprint forces backdrop to mailman 2.1

[Mark Sapiro]

On 10/7/22 02:27, Martin Lorenz wrote:

Greetings,

after many years of smoothly running a mailman2 instance I had to migrate my 
virtual server to a new provider.
There I found, that mailman2 was no longer supported and tried to migrate to 
mailman3

.. with much pain and no success.
Mailman3 keeps crashing my v-server and swallows almost every mail sent to any 
of the migrated lists.



If you post more detail to mailman-us...@mailman3.org 
, 
we will try to help you with that.




So I wanted to switch back to mailman 2.1.39 by installing from the source 
package and found that this also fails due to missing python2 support.



You could install Python 2.7 
 but it would be 
much better to fix your Mailman 3 issues.


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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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[Mailman-Users] Re: Hevy resource footprint forces backdrop to mailman 2.1

[Bruce Johnson via Mailman-Users]

If you have root or sudo access on the vm host you will need to install Python2 
support via whatever mechanism the OS uses for this ( such as yum, dnf or apt 
for various Linux flavors )

On Oct 7, 2022, at 2:27 AM, Martin Lorenz 
mailto:git...@member.holoclan.de>> wrote:

Greetings,

after many years of smoothly running a mailman2 instance I had to migrate my 
virtual server to a new provider.
There I found, that mailman2 was no longer supported and tried to migrate to 
mailman3

.. with much pain and no success.
Mailman3 keeps crashing my v-server and swallows almost every mail sent to any 
of the migrated lists.

So I wanted to switch back to mailman 2.1.39 by installing from the source 
package and found that this also fails due to missing python2 support.

How to solve this?

Thank you very much
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Information Technology Group

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