Re: [Mailman-Users] Unexpected Listname When Creating New List

[John W. Baxter]

On 10/27/06 6:17 PM, "Jon Forrest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> Are you sure your postfix aliases for Mailman are case sensitive. I
>> doubt it. Try mailing to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] I suspect both messages will get posted to
>> the list.
> 
> You are 100% right. I did NOT know this!! All these years
> of misinformation...

The current situation is that the local parts are not case sensitive almost
everywhere, but CAN be.  (Exim, for example, has a little-used option to
create case-sensitivity.  I don't speak Postfix, but a quick look at
"Postfix, The Definitive Guide" didn't show me an equivalent option.)

So (most) MTAs are stuck preserving case, particularly on messages relayed
to other MTAs, but comparing all lower case.  This seemingly was a political
thing in the mail standards meetings--there were still enough case-sensitive
sites to keep the status quo.

  --John


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Unexpected Listname When Creating New List

[Mark Sapiro]

Jon Forrest wrote:
>
>My intuition tells me that programs shouldn't change the case
>of user-supplied data unless there's a very good reason for
>doing so, and it's clear that it's happening. But, you
>are clearly the expert in this area.


I understand your point and it seems valid. I can't speak to the
discussions that may have taken place in deciding on current behavior
as that was all well before I joined the project.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Unexpected Listname When Creating New List

[Jon Forrest]

Mark Sapiro wrote:

> Are you sure your postfix aliases for Mailman are case sensitive. I
> doubt it. Try mailing to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] I suspect both messages will get posted to
> the list.

You are 100% right. I did NOT know this!! All these years
of misinformation...

> 
>> Sure, I can use the web interface to change this, which I did, but
>> I'm still not understanding why both the internal and the other
>> name aren't the same by default, since this is likely the more
>> common case.
> 
> 
> We think the more common case is that people want the capitalization.
> Look for example at .

I see what you mean, although I wonder how many list administrators
are even aware of this issue.

My intuition tells me that programs shouldn't change the case
of user-supplied data unless there's a very good reason for
doing so, and it's clear that it's happening. But, you
are clearly the expert in this area.

Anyway, thanks for your help.

Jon Forrest



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Unexpected Listname When Creating New List

[Mark Sapiro]

Jon Forrest wrote:
>
>What got me worried was the signature in messages that come from my list.
>
>It said:
>
>   ---
>   Test mailing list
>   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>So, given that my MTA (Postfix) is case sensitive, if somebody
>replied to the email address on the last line of the signature,
>the message would bounce.


Are you sure your postfix aliases for Mailman are case sensitive. I
doubt it. Try mailing to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] I suspect both messages will get posted to
the list.


>Sure, I can use the web interface to change this, which I did, but
>I'm still not understanding why both the internal and the other
>name aren't the same by default, since this is likely the more
>common case.


We think the more common case is that people want the capitalization.
Look for example at .

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Unexpected Listname When Creating New List

[Jon Forrest]

Mark Sapiro wrote:

> A newly created list will be given an initial real_name = to the all
> lower case internal name except the first character will be Upper case
> if it's a letter. This name is used in some messages and on the
> listinfo page.

I'm wondering what the reasoning for this is. If somebody wants
"Test" they'd create the list that way, I would think.

> You are correct. Local parts of email addresses (left of the @) are
> interpreted only by local mail delivery and may be case sensitive
> although they usually aren't. If *your* MTA is case sensitive, then
> your list's real_name should be all lower case to match the internal
> name, but most likely, you can capitalize it any way you want to make
> it pretty.

What got me worried was the signature in messages that come from my list.

It said:

---
Test mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

So, given that my MTA (Postfix) is case sensitive, if somebody
replied to the email address on the last line of the signature,
the message would bounce.

Sure, I can use the web interface to change this, which I did, but
I'm still not understanding why both the internal and the other
name aren't the same by default, since this is likely the more
common case.

As always, thanks for your thoughtful replies,
Jon



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Unexpected Listname When Creating New List

[Mark Sapiro]

Jon Forrest wrote:
>
>newlist --help says:
>
>"Note that listnames are forced to lowercase".
>
>That doesn't seem to be true.


The confusion is there are two list names. The internal list name which
is the name of the list's sub-directory in Mailman's lists/ directory,
and the name which is used in URLs referencing the list is lower case.

The real_name attribute on the list's General Options page may be mixed
case, but must be the same as the internal name except for case. A
newly created list will be given an initial real_name = to the all
lower case internal name except the first character will be Upper case
if it's a letter. This name is used in some messages and on the
listinfo page.


>I just ran
>
>   bin/newlist test
>
>but my listinfo web page shows this as "Test".
>It also shows up as "Test" in the General Options
>web page.
>
>If I look at the "Details for real name" information, it says:
>
>"Email addresses are not case sensitive..."
>
>I learned in Email 101 that this is not true on the left
>side of "@" signs. Was my teacher playing a cruel joke on me?
>In any case, I can change "Test" to "test" and all appears
>well.

Or you can leave it as "Test" or make it "TEST" if you like.

You are correct. Local parts of email addresses (left of the @) are
interpreted only by local mail delivery and may be case sensitive
although they usually aren't. If *your* MTA is case sensitive, then
your list's real_name should be all lower case to match the internal
name, but most likely, you can capitalize it any way you want to make
it pretty.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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[Mailman-Users] Unexpected Listname When Creating New List

[Jon Forrest]

(Mailman 2.1.9 Fedora 5)


newlist --help says:

"Note that listnames are forced to lowercase".

That doesn't seem to be true.

I just ran

bin/newlist test

but my listinfo web page shows this as "Test".
It also shows up as "Test" in the General Options
web page.

If I look at the "Details for real name" information, it says:

"Email addresses are not case sensitive..."

I learned in Email 101 that this is not true on the left
side of "@" signs. Was my teacher playing a cruel joke on me?
In any case, I can change "Test" to "test" and all appears
well.

What's a mother to do?

Cordially,
-- 
Jon Forrest
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Computer Resources Manager
Civil and Environmental Engineering Dept.
305 Davis Hall
Univ. of Calif., Berkeley
Berkeley, CA 94720-1710
510-642-0904
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