[Mailman-Users] Unexplained unsubscribes of yahoo.com email addresses
I run a few Mailman mailing lists (2.1.12cp3 - 42 lists with 500 subscribers max on each list) for a professional association that I belong to. Over the last three days I have had a series of unexplained unsubscribes from one of the lists, and almost all of the unsubscribed email addresses are yahoo.com addresses. None of the admins has done a mass removal, so is there any way for me to determine why these email addresses were unsubscribed? Anything in the log files? This is the only list that I am seeing this on. Thanks, J.R. J.R. Constance Rodric Consulting, LLC j...@rodricon.com Phone: 720.339.3646 -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Unexplained unsubscribes of yahoo.com email addresses
-Original Message- From: mailman-users-bounces+brian=emwd@python.org [mailto:mailman- users-bounces+brian=emwd@python.org] On Behalf Of J.R. Constance Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 10:23 AM To: Mailman Users Subject: [Mailman-Users] Unexplained unsubscribes of yahoo.com email addresses I run a few Mailman mailing lists (2.1.12cp3 - 42 lists with 500 subscribers max on each list) for a professional association that I belong to. Over the last three days I have had a series of unexplained unsubscribes from one of the lists, and almost all of the unsubscribed email addresses are yahoo.com addresses. None of the admins has done a mass removal, so is there any way for me to determine why these email addresses were unsubscribed? Anything in the log files? This is the only list that I am seeing this on. Thanks, J.R. J.R. Constance Rodric Consulting, LLC j...@rodricon.com Phone: 720.339.3646 You can check your mail log to see if you are seeing a high number of Yahoo! deferrals. If so then those deferrals may be behind those unsubscribes, especially if they have been unsubscribed due to excessive bounces. Checking the mailman/logs/subscribe log should show you the reason behind these recent unsubscribes. Brian http://mailmanhost.com -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Unexplained unsubscribes of yahoo.com email addresses
On Mon, Mar 01, 2010 at 10:23:18AM -0500, J.R. Constance wrote: almost all of the unsubscribed email addresses are yahoo.com addresses. Do you have 'special' retry conditions for Yahoo-hosted domains, in your MTA? If not, you may want something, q.v., exim-users' archive (and probably elsewhere, too), for some background/suggestions. -- A traitor may betray himself and do good that he does not intend -- J. R. R. Tolkien -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Unexplained unsubscribes of yahoo.com email addresses
* Brian Carpenter br...@emwd.com: You can check your mail log to see if you are seeing a high number of Yahoo! deferrals. If so then those deferrals may be behind those unsubscribes, especially if they have been unsubscribed due to excessive bounces. Checking the mailman/logs/subscribe log should show you the reason behind these recent unsubscribes. Stuff like: Mar 01 09:00:01 2010 (14075) bangpypers: deleted yogeshhkxx...@gmail.com; disabled address Mar 01 09:00:01 2010 (14075) bangpypers: yogeshhkxx...@gmail.com auto-unsubscribed [reason: BYBOUNCE] Mar 01 09:00:02 2010 (14075) pycon-av: smccx...@pbpost.com auto-unsubscribed [reason: BYBOUNCE] -- Ralf Hildebrandt Geschäftsbereich IT | Abteilung Netzwerk Charité - Universitätsmedizin Berlin Campus Benjamin Franklin Hindenburgdamm 30 | D-12203 Berlin Tel. +49 30 450 570 155 | Fax: +49 30 450 570 962 ralf.hildebra...@charite.de | http://www.charite.de -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Unexplained unsubscribes of yahoo.com email addresses
Thanks to all. I appreciate the quick responses. Subscribe log says: [reason: BYBOUNCE] and Bounce log says: deleted after exhausting notices I was surprised at these unsubscribes because it has been almost 4 weeks since any messages have gone out to this list, and I had removed any queued mail from the queue server several weeks ago. J.R. On Mar 1, 2010, at 11:14 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote: * Brian Carpenter br...@emwd.com: You can check your mail log to see if you are seeing a high number of Yahoo! deferrals. If so then those deferrals may be behind those unsubscribes, especially if they have been unsubscribed due to excessive bounces. Checking the mailman/logs/subscribe log should show you the reason behind these recent unsubscribes. Stuff like: Mar 01 09:00:01 2010 (14075) bangpypers: deleted yogeshhkxx...@gmail.com; disabled address Mar 01 09:00:01 2010 (14075) bangpypers: yogeshhkxx...@gmail.com auto-unsubscribed [reason: BYBOUNCE] Mar 01 09:00:02 2010 (14075) pycon-av: smccx...@pbpost.com auto-unsubscribed [reason: BYBOUNCE] -- Ralf Hildebrandt Geschäftsbereich IT | Abteilung Netzwerk Charité - Universitätsmedizin Berlin Campus Benjamin Franklin Hindenburgdamm 30 | D-12203 Berlin Tel. +49 30 450 570 155 | Fax: +49 30 450 570 962 ralf.hildebra...@charite.de | http://www.charite.de -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/jrc%40clshost.com -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Unexplained unsubscribes of yahoo.com email addresses
Brian Carpenter wrote: We have a server where this problem is happening and in the case of this particular server (being solely used by a single non-profit organization) Yahoo is being VERY persistent in delaying their messages and they are seeing Yahoo.com addresses being unsubsribed. We are in the process of working with Yahoo in trying to get this server whitelisted with them. Very persistent as in delaying for more than 5 days, or is your MTA's retry period shorter than that? I'm sure you know what's happening in your case; maybe I'm just lucky, but I think my Yahoo deferrals/retries always succeed within way less than 24 hours. rant I think Yahoo is wrong in this. If the deferrals are a form of greylisting, there's no point in deferring more than once. One delayed retry proves the sending MTA is going to retry and subsequent deferrals are pointless. On the other hand, if they're never going to accept the mail, they should reject it outright with a 5xx. The only result from deferring multiple times and then accepting is to cause problems for their users resulting from delayed mail and to waste network resources with all the unnecessary retries. /rant -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Unexplained unsubscribes of yahoo.com email addresses
Brian Carpenter wrote: We have a server where this problem is happening and in the case of this particular server (being solely used by a single non-profit organization) Yahoo is being VERY persistent in delaying their messages and they are seeing Yahoo.com addresses being unsubsribed. We are in the process of working with Yahoo in trying to get this server whitelisted with them. Very persistent as in delaying for more than 5 days, or is your MTA's retry period shorter than that? I'm sure you know what's happening in your case; maybe I'm just lucky, but I think my Yahoo deferrals/retries always succeed within way less than 24 hours. rant I think Yahoo is wrong in this. If the deferrals are a form of greylisting, there's no point in deferring more than once. One delayed retry proves the sending MTA is going to retry and subsequent deferrals are pointless. On the other hand, if they're never going to accept the mail, they should reject it outright with a 5xx. The only result from deferring multiple times and then accepting is to cause problems for their users resulting from delayed mail and to waste network resources with all the unnecessary retries. /rant -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan For cPanel servers the default is 4 days which is what we use. For this particular client, they have over a hundred active discussion mailing lists. They are small lists in regards to members but they are active and the mail queue just keeps filling up due to Yahoo! terrible deferral policies. Totally agree with your rant. Right on target. Regards, Brian Carpenter http://mailmanhost.com -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Unexplained unsubscribes of yahoo.com email
The esteemed Mark Sapiro has said: Very persistent as in delaying for more than 5 days, or is your MTA's retry period shorter than that? I'm sure you know what's happening in your case; maybe I'm just lucky, but I think my Yahoo deferrals/retries always succeed within way less than 24 hours. rant I think Yahoo is wrong in this. If the deferrals are a form of greylisting, there's no point in deferring more than once. One delayed retry proves the sending MTA is going to retry and subsequent deferrals are pointless. On the other hand, if they're never going to accept the mail, they should reject it outright with a 5xx. The only result from deferring multiple times and then accepting is to cause problems for their users resulting from delayed mail and to waste network resources with all the unnecessary retries. /rant I recognize this pattern in dealing with several of the large recipient sites. Can't recall now, but I think yahoo, hotmail, and verizon all pulled this stunt, and what's happening is not obvious to the Mailman admin who does not have access to sender site logs. I'm using sendmail as MTA, so this scenario is what happens with sendmail. Rather than bounce the mail with a 5.x.x DSN the recipient site defers with a 4.x.x DSN. Mailman, as an MUA, receives notices sent to listname-bounces that the mail is being deferred, but unless Mailman is set to deliver those messages to the admin, they vanish. The MTA has a timeout (sendmail default is 5 days, I reset to 3) after which it discards mail from the queue and sends a bounce message, which gets processed. After receiving bounces for N days, Mailman sets the address nomail-by-bounce. It becomes obvious to the Mailman admin when the bounce processor sends the bounce notices. Generally, the bounce reminders also get blocked by deferral, so Mailman unsubscribes the acount after the waiting period. To put the frosting on the cake, the recipient doesn't get the you've been unsubscribed message, either. In a couple of cases, the bounce messages sent to the sendmail log will start having http links in the message. Only the site administrator who is reading the MTA logs gets to see that, and it's sporadic---not every deferral message has that included. The link is generally to a URL for getting the sender site whitelisted with the big mail operation. Needless to say, the whole thing is pretty invisible to both a Mailman administrator and the recipients. In the meantime, the MTA queues get filled up, the addresses get retried at regular intervals. Consider 5 days of deferrals before the first bounces to Mailman, three more for Mailman to set the user nomail, then three more weeks to the unsubscribe. And of course, the days of deferrals and retries make the mail list look like a spam generator. We're set up here to discard unrecognized bounce messages (that address is a prime spam target), but to get bounce and unsubscribe notices. Hank -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Unexplained unsubscribes of yahoo.com email
Hank van Cleef wrote: Rather than bounce the mail with a 5.x.x DSN the recipient site defers with a 4.x.x DSN. Mailman, as an MUA, receives notices sent to listname-bounces that the mail is being deferred, but unless Mailman is set to deliver those messages to the admin, they vanish. If it is a 4.x.x delayed message, and Mailman recognizes it, it is ignored. There is no setting to deliver it to anyone, unless it is unrecognized. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Unexplained unsubscribes of yahoo.com email addresses
On 1-Mar-2010, at 09:58, Mark Sapiro wrote: I think Yahoo is wrong in this. Oh yeah, there's no question at all that Yahoo has their proverbial head up their backsides. But they are a large enough gorilla that they don't have to care. I am happy to say that I've convinced many people to switch from Yahoo to another mail service simply by showing them logs of the crap yahoo pulls. -- As God as my witness, I though turkeys could fly, Arthur Carlson, WKRP in Cincinnati -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
