subject:"\[Mailman\-Users\] footer format"

Re: [Mailman-Users] footer format

2016-12-13 Thread Adam Goldberg

Send grid gives you the ability to see if someone opened the email, etc. 
clearly it was sendgrid that added that (and that's why I don't use sendgrid).

Adam Goldberg
202-507-9900

On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 6:52 PM -0500, "Mark Sapiro" 
mailto:m...@msapiro.net>> wrote:

On 12/13/2016 01:31 PM, Kim, DongInn wrote:
>
> I do not know what is going on with the digital signature part but I am 
> wondering if you can take a look at the full raw source of the message and 
> see if there is any clues to debug this issue? This message was sent with my 
> S/MIME signature.
> http://www.crest.iu.edu/~dikim/mailman_footer.txt 
> 
>
> The raw source has the correct format of plain text footer but it is ignored 
> and another footer seems to be displayed with the html format.
> Why does it have two footer contents?

I don't know the answer to that, but I can tell you the Mailman 2.1.23
did not add the text/html footer. Something in the delivery chain after
Mailman converted Mailman's text/plain footer into multipart/alternative
with Mailman's original text/plain footer as the first alternative and
the garbled text/html footer as the second alternative.

A clue is whatever did that also added the web bug

https://u1524457.ct.sendgrid.net/wf/open?upn=FkTv6GMOKAeoJi-2BuKcaB7j2pviCy3ue7m8E6mW8uXY9UnMILQAXAHVBrmmTRd83iYN9USWcOUM8L8ZosPzEP9m1VANGlC-2BxOxriFYBy4Tu1iTEvXSVeZZdQjAkN4o4OHJDdsmqZwygNz8M-2BM97RC-2FW0fJrSW6L-2FeaD7enEkleB4vtP5DiIUsHhgUBZGo-2BNadwAONhlISQa0s2Fu-2FSFTQJJnaQGDVK8HDSBQcwSSSZwM-3D";
alt="" width="1" height="1" border="0" style="height:1px
!important;width:1px !important;border-width:0 !important;margin-top:0
!important;margin-bottom:0 !important;margin-right:0
!important;margin-left:0 !important;padding-top:0
!important;padding-bottom:0 !important;padding-right:0
!important;padding-left:0 !important;"/>

It looks like the first MTA in the delivery chain is
ismtpd0003p1sjc2.sendgrid.net and that this is a "smarthost" used by
Mailman at isocpp.org for delivery as the message is relayed through
ismtpd0003p1sjc2.sendgrid.net, filter0120p1las1.sendgrid.net and
o1.30e.fshared.sendgrid.net before being delivered to the MX for
indiana.edu.

It is almost 100% certain that it is something at sendgrid.net that is
both munging the text/plain footer into the multipart/alternative and
adding the web bug to the html alternative.

--
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
--
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Re: [Mailman-Users] footer format

2016-12-13 Thread Adam Goldberg

That's all true, but in addition I don't want my MSA changing the body of the 
emails I send. For this reason (the footer problem), and others. 

Adam
a...@agp-llc.com



> On Dec 13, 2016, at 7:02 PM, Mark Sapiro  wrote:
> 
>> On 12/13/2016 03:54 PM, Adam Goldberg wrote:
>> Send grid gives you the ability to see if someone opened the email, etc. 
>> clearly it was sendgrid that added that (and that's why I don't use 
>> sendgrid).
> 
> 
> Yes, that's what web bugs are for, but in addition to being annoying
> invasions of privacy, they are totally unreliable as a means of knowing
> whether someone read the mail. All they will tell you is that the
> recipient 'opened' the mail which doesn't mean she read it. Also many
> MUAs will not load external images in HTML mail without at least asking
> first so many people may have read the mail without ever loading the
> encoded image URL.
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
--
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Re: [Mailman-Users] footer format

2016-12-13 Thread Mark Sapiro

On 12/13/2016 03:54 PM, Adam Goldberg wrote:
> Send grid gives you the ability to see if someone opened the email, etc. 
> clearly it was sendgrid that added that (and that's why I don't use sendgrid).

Yes, that's what web bugs are for, but in addition to being annoying
invasions of privacy, they are totally unreliable as a means of knowing
whether someone read the mail. All they will tell you is that the
recipient 'opened' the mail which doesn't mean she read it. Also many
MUAs will not load external images in HTML mail without at least asking
first so many people may have read the mail without ever loading the
encoded image URL.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
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Re: [Mailman-Users] footer format

2016-12-13 Thread Mark Sapiro

On 12/13/2016 01:31 PM, Kim, DongInn wrote:
> 
> I do not know what is going on with the digital signature part but I am 
> wondering if you can take a look at the full raw source of the message and 
> see if there is any clues to debug this issue? This message was sent with my 
> S/MIME signature.
> http://www.crest.iu.edu/~dikim/mailman_footer.txt 
> 
> 
> The raw source has the correct format of plain text footer but it is ignored 
> and another footer seems to be displayed with the html format.
> Why does it have two footer contents?

I don't know the answer to that, but I can tell you the Mailman 2.1.23
did not add the text/html footer. Something in the delivery chain after
Mailman converted Mailman's text/plain footer into multipart/alternative
with Mailman's original text/plain footer as the first alternative and
the garbled text/html footer as the second alternative.

A clue is whatever did that also added the web bug

https://u1524457.ct.sendgrid.net/wf/open?upn=FkTv6GMOKAeoJi-2BuKcaB7j2pviCy3ue7m8E6mW8uXY9UnMILQAXAHVBrmmTRd83iYN9USWcOUM8L8ZosPzEP9m1VANGlC-2BxOxriFYBy4Tu1iTEvXSVeZZdQjAkN4o4OHJDdsmqZwygNz8M-2BM97RC-2FW0fJrSW6L-2FeaD7enEkleB4vtP5DiIUsHhgUBZGo-2BNadwAONhlISQa0s2Fu-2FSFTQJJnaQGDVK8HDSBQcwSSSZwM-3D";
alt="" width="1" height="1" border="0" style="height:1px
!important;width:1px !important;border-width:0 !important;margin-top:0
!important;margin-bottom:0 !important;margin-right:0
!important;margin-left:0 !important;padding-top:0
!important;padding-bottom:0 !important;padding-right:0
!important;padding-left:0 !important;"/>

It looks like the first MTA in the delivery chain is
ismtpd0003p1sjc2.sendgrid.net and that this is a "smarthost" used by
Mailman at isocpp.org for delivery as the message is relayed through
ismtpd0003p1sjc2.sendgrid.net, filter0120p1las1.sendgrid.net and
o1.30e.fshared.sendgrid.net before being delivered to the MX for
indiana.edu.

It is almost 100% certain that it is something at sendgrid.net that is
both munging the text/plain footer into the multipart/alternative and
adding the web bug to the html alternative.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
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Re: [Mailman-Users] footer format

2016-12-13 Thread Kim, DongInn

Mark, there is another thing that I need to mention.

This footer used to work fine with 2.1.15 (i.e., it was fine with the digital 
signature email) but it seems to have a problem with 2.1.23.
Maybe I did anything stupid? :-(

Regards,

--
- DongInn





> On Dec 13, 2016, at 4:31 PM, Kim, DongInn  wrote:
> 
> Hi Mark,
> 
> Thank you very much for looking into my problem.
> 
> I do not know what is going on with the digital signature part but I am 
> wondering if you can take a look at the full raw source of the message and 
> see if there is any clues to debug this issue? This message was sent with my 
> S/MIME signature.
> http://www.crest.iu.edu/~dikim/mailman_footer.txt 
> 
> 
> The raw source has the correct format of plain text footer but it is ignored 
> and another footer seems to be displayed with the html format.
> Why does it have two footer contents?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> --
> - DongInn
> 
> 
> 
>> On Dec 13, 2016, at 1:03 AM, Mark Sapiro > > wrote:
>> 
>> On 12/12/2016 02:49 PM, Kim, DongInn wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Is there a way to keep the footer format (or layout)? In the most emails, 
>>> the footer format is fine but when a user uses digital signature (pgp or 
>>> S/MIME), it surely breaks the format.
>>> It seems that it is possible that the format is broken regardless of the 
>>> signature issue but I can not track down this case.
>>> 
>>> For example, the broken format looks like this:
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/hwukqz2iuqa18cg/Screenshot%202016-12-12%2017.47.16.png?dl=0
>>>  
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The right format looks like this:
>>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/7tqfdxvjb6hxqbg/Screenshot%202016-12-12%2017.48.09.png?dl=0
>>> 
>>> Maybe, can we use  tag around the footer for the html format of email?
>> 
>> 
>> Standard Mailman never puts the footer in an HTML message part. If the
>> message is a single part text/plain message, the footer is appended to
>> the text/plain message. Otherwise it is added as a separate text/plain part.
>> 
>> It could be in your case that unsigned messages are single part
>> text/plain messages and signatures make the message multipart/signed,
>> but even so, the formatting of the footer should not be changed.
>> 
>> The article at > > has more on this. It
>> also has some material about non-standard (and not recommended) patches.
>> Is your Mailman patched in any way to deal with footers and to put them
>> in HTML parts?
>> 
>> -- 
>> Mark Sapiro mailto:m...@msapiro.net>>The highway 
>> is for gamblers,
>> San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
>> 
>> --
>> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org 
>> 
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users 
>> 
>> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
>> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
>> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
>> Unsubscribe: 
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/dikim%40indiana.edu
> 

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Re: [Mailman-Users] footer format

2016-12-13 Thread Kim, DongInn

Hi Mark,

Thank you very much for looking into my problem.

I do not know what is going on with the digital signature part but I am 
wondering if you can take a look at the full raw source of the message and see 
if there is any clues to debug this issue? This message was sent with my S/MIME 
signature.
http://www.crest.iu.edu/~dikim/mailman_footer.txt 


The raw source has the correct format of plain text footer but it is ignored 
and another footer seems to be displayed with the html format.
Why does it have two footer contents?

Regards,

--
- DongInn



> On Dec 13, 2016, at 1:03 AM, Mark Sapiro  wrote:
> 
> On 12/12/2016 02:49 PM, Kim, DongInn wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Is there a way to keep the footer format (or layout)? In the most emails, 
>> the footer format is fine but when a user uses digital signature (pgp or 
>> S/MIME), it surely breaks the format.
>> It seems that it is possible that the format is broken regardless of the 
>> signature issue but I can not track down this case.
>> 
>> For example, the broken format looks like this:
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/hwukqz2iuqa18cg/Screenshot%202016-12-12%2017.47.16.png?dl=0
>> 
>> The right format looks like this:
>> https://www.dropbox.com/s/7tqfdxvjb6hxqbg/Screenshot%202016-12-12%2017.48.09.png?dl=0
>> 
>> Maybe, can we use  tag around the footer for the html format of email?
> 
> 
> Standard Mailman never puts the footer in an HTML message part. If the
> message is a single part text/plain message, the footer is appended to
> the text/plain message. Otherwise it is added as a separate text/plain part.
> 
> It could be in your case that unsigned messages are single part
> text/plain messages and signatures make the message multipart/signed,
> but even so, the formatting of the footer should not be changed.
> 
> The article at  has more on this. It
> also has some material about non-standard (and not recommended) patches.
> Is your Mailman patched in any way to deal with footers and to put them
> in HTML parts?
> 
> -- 
> Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
> 
> --
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: 
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/dikim%40indiana.edu

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Re: [Mailman-Users] footer format

2016-12-12 Thread Mark Sapiro

On 12/12/2016 02:49 PM, Kim, DongInn wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Is there a way to keep the footer format (or layout)? In the most emails, the 
> footer format is fine but when a user uses digital signature (pgp or S/MIME), 
> it surely breaks the format.
> It seems that it is possible that the format is broken regardless of the 
> signature issue but I can not track down this case.
> 
> For example, the broken format looks like this:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/hwukqz2iuqa18cg/Screenshot%202016-12-12%2017.47.16.png?dl=0
> 
> The right format looks like this:
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/7tqfdxvjb6hxqbg/Screenshot%202016-12-12%2017.48.09.png?dl=0
> 
> Maybe, can we use  tag around the footer for the html format of email?

Standard Mailman never puts the footer in an HTML message part. If the
message is a single part text/plain message, the footer is appended to
the text/plain message. Otherwise it is added as a separate text/plain part.

It could be in your case that unsigned messages are single part
text/plain messages and signatures make the message multipart/signed,
but even so, the formatting of the footer should not be changed.

The article at  has more on this. It
also has some material about non-standard (and not recommended) patches.
Is your Mailman patched in any way to deal with footers and to put them
in HTML parts?

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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[Mailman-Users] footer format

2016-12-12 Thread Kim, DongInn

Hi,

Is there a way to keep the footer format (or layout)? In the most emails, the 
footer format is fine but when a user uses digital signature (pgp or S/MIME), 
it surely breaks the format.
It seems that it is possible that the format is broken regardless of the 
signature issue but I can not track down this case.

For example, the broken format looks like this:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/hwukqz2iuqa18cg/Screenshot%202016-12-12%2017.47.16.png?dl=0

The right format looks like this:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7tqfdxvjb6hxqbg/Screenshot%202016-12-12%2017.48.09.png?dl=0

Maybe, can we use  tag around the footer for the html format of email?

Regards,

--
- DongInn







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Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
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Re: [Mailman-Users] footer format

Re: [Mailman-Users] footer format

Re: [Mailman-Users] footer format

Re: [Mailman-Users] footer format

Re: [Mailman-Users] footer format

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Re: [Mailman-Users] footer format

[Mailman-Users] footer format

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