Re: [Mailman-Users] listowners.org

[Brad Knowles]

At 5:53 AM -0600 2005-03-06, Willie McKemie wrote:
 The list names are _austinfarm.org.  URLs:
 http://austinfarm.org/mailman/admin
 http://austinfarm.org/mailman/admin/test_austinfarm.org
 etc
	This sounds like you're using a version of Mailman that has been 
hacked to support virtual domains, either by cPanel, or something 
along the lines of 
.

	Either way, these are hacks to the Mailman code, and the display 
is necessarily a little different from what you would expect from a 
standard installation.  That would certainly explain your confusion.

 Is there somewhere on the mailman site that I should post my
 experience?  To make the path easier for those following?
 In particular, mailman-subscribers.py should be easier to find than it
 seems to be.
	You can always add something to the Mailman FAQ Wizard at 
.  We would ask that you 
look over the entries there and try to find the right section, but 
beyond that it's pretty much up to you what you want to put there.

--
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"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
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Re: [Mailman-Users] listowners.org

[Willie McKemie]

On Sat, Mar 05, 2005 at 08:27:48PM -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> >> 
> >> This one is not so useful because it reads a list of members to unhide
> >> from the subscribers.txt local file. If you don't know who the hidden
> >> members are, it won't help you.
> >
> >Does mailman-subscribers.py list "hidden" subscribers?
> 
> Yes. It uses the admin Membership List page which it assumes it
> accesses via http:///mailman/admin//members. This
> lists all members, hidden or not.
> 
> >
> >If you are willing or care to diddle, I set up a maillist "test", 
> >password .
> 
> 
> If I try to go to http://www.austinfarm.org/mailman/admin/test or to
> http://www.austinfarm.org/mailman/admin/homegrown/ or
> http://www.austinfarm.org/mailman/admin/test/members or
> http://www.austinfarm.org/mailman/admin/homegrown/members
> I get the generic admin page with the error message "No such list test"
> or "No such list homegrown".
> 
> Until you can access these list's admin interfaces with a web browser,
> you won't be able to do it with the script either.
> 
> Can you access the admin interface with a web browser? If so, what URL?
> If not http:///mailman/admin//members, you'll have
> to modify the script like the following (watch for folded lines):

HOT DAMN!

The list names are _austinfarm.org.  URLs:
http://austinfarm.org/mailman/admin
http://austinfarm.org/mailman/admin/test_austinfarm.org
etc

I had been accessing lists through links on 
http://austinfarm.org/mailman/admin and not paying close attention to 
those links.

AND mailman-subscribers.py works for me as advertised!

Is there somewhere on the mailman site that I should post my 
experience?  To make the path easier for those following?
In particular, mailman-subscribers.py should be easier to find than it 
seems to be.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] listowners.org

[Willie McKemie]

On Sat, Mar 05, 2005 at 11:51:32AM -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> >At 8:05 AM -0600 2005-03-04, Willie McKemie wrote:
> >
> >>  Mailman wishlist feature: Enable some sort of "get membership list" via
> >>  an email command.  Even if member's addresses are "hidden".
> >>  Alternately, some way to, at least temporarily, "un-hide" all members.
> >>  Alternately, some way to list all members on a single web page.
> 
> There are some sample scripts available that script the web interface
> to do these things See
> http://starship.python.net/crew/jwt/mailman/#throughtheweb

That's VERY interesting, thanks.

I am not at all familiar with python.  I assume those scripts are to be 
executed on my local system rather than my web host?  I just installed 
python and messed with the scripts some.  I first ran 
mailman-subscribers.py with the three command line parameters.  It ran 
a minute or two (or three), but yielded no output.  "Well", says I, 
"maybe I need to first 'unhide' all members first".  So, I edited 
"unhide.py" and changed what seemed appropriate: listname and URL.  
Changed 'password' and 'listpassword' on the line that begins with 
"params".  Ran unhide.py.  Quick execution, no errors, no output.

A bit more help?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] listowners.org

[Mark Sapiro]

Willie McKemie wrote:

>On Sat, Mar 05, 2005 at 11:51:32AM -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> >At 8:05 AM -0600 2005-03-04, Willie McKemie wrote:
>> >
>> >>  Mailman wishlist feature: Enable some sort of "get membership list" via
>> >>  an email command.  Even if member's addresses are "hidden".
>> >>  Alternately, some way to, at least temporarily, "un-hide" all members.
>> >>  Alternately, some way to list all members on a single web page.
>> 
>> There are some sample scripts available that script the web interface
>> to do these things See
>> http://starship.python.net/crew/jwt/mailman/#throughtheweb
>
>That's VERY interesting, thanks.
>
>I am not at all familiar with python.  I assume those scripts are to be 
>executed on my local system rather than my web host?

That's correct.

>I just installed 
>python and messed with the scripts some.  I first ran 
>mailman-subscribers.py with the three command line parameters.  It ran 
>a minute or two (or three), but yielded no output.

It works for me.

./mailman-subscribers.py -f www.example.com my_list my_list_pw

What happens if you use -v or --verbose?


>"Well", says I, 
>"maybe I need to first 'unhide' all members first".

You shouldn't need to.

>So, I edited 
>"unhide.py" and changed what seemed appropriate: listname and URL.

Correct.
  
>Changed 'password' and 'listpassword' on the line that begins with 
>"params".

The literal 'password' is not changed. 'listpassword' is replaced with
'the_actual_password' (i.e. it should still be quoted.)

>Ran unhide.py.  Quick execution, no errors, no output.

This one is not so useful because it reads a list of members to unhide
from the subscribers.txt local file. If you don't know who the hidden
members are, it won't help you.

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] listowners.org

[Mark Sapiro]

>At 8:05 AM -0600 2005-03-04, Willie McKemie wrote:
>
>>  Mailman wishlist feature: Enable some sort of "get membership list" via
>>  an email command.  Even if member's addresses are "hidden".
>>  Alternately, some way to, at least temporarily, "un-hide" all members.
>>  Alternately, some way to list all members on a single web page.

There are some sample scripts available that script the web interface
to do these things See
http://starship.python.net/crew/jwt/mailman/#throughtheweb

--
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Re: [Mailman-Users] listowners.org

[Brad Knowles]

At 7:28 PM -0600 2005-03-04, Willie McKemie wrote:
 In trying to do the above (on local mailman install), I get:
 Illegal list name: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 when I do a "newlist".  No matter how I specify the [listname].
 "list_lists" continues to show no lists.
	Can you show us an example of what you're doing on your local 
machine, and compare/contrast this with what you did to create the 
"real" list on the webserver?

--
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-- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
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  SAGE member since 1995.  See  for more info.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] listowners.org

[Brad Knowles]

At 8:05 AM -0600 2005-03-04, Willie McKemie wrote:
 Alright, some movement here.  I found the scripts on my local mailman
 install and seem to be able to execute them.  Now, how do I get the
 list_members script to operate on data in a config.pck file?
 "/mailman/bin/list_members /config.pck"
 doesn't do it.
	Those scripts expect to find the pickle files in their standard 
locations, according to the list name.  So, one way to do that would 
be to create a local version of the list which is empty, and then 
stuff in the config.pck file that you downloaded in place of the 
empty config.pck that was created for that local version of the list.

Then all the command-line tools should "just work".
 The above route to lists of members is not all that attractive to me
 since I have to download a file of about 200mb to get to those
 relatively small config.pck files.
	There are a lot of things that can be done without too much 
hassle if you've got privileged access to the mail server where 
Mailman is installed, and you can log into the machine directly and 
get a shell prompt.

	Many of those things might be desirable to do from the web for 
site administrators or list managers, but that is not currently 
possible.

	Part of the problem is that Mailman was designed to be used in an 
environment where you install it yourself on your own machine(s), and 
not in a service provider environment.  Some groups like cPanel and 
Plesk recognize that issue and apply a great deal of customization to 
try to hide some of these problems, or to hide those features of 
Mailman which would otherwise be desirable but would not be 
accessible via the web.

	Some will install Mailman in a central location, but then they 
find that supporting all their users becomes very expensive.  They 
either have to charge amounts like $75-100/hour for any kind of 
change that would require involvement by one of their Site 
Administrators, or they stop providing those services altogether.

	These are known issues, and I believe that many of them are 
targeted for being addressed in the upcoming Mailman versions (mm3) 
development branch, but that doesn't help you today.

	The current version of Mailman just wasn't designed to be 
used/abused the way that many sites are installing it.  There's a 
limit to how much we can do to support customers of such sites.

 Mailman wishlist feature: Enable some sort of "get membership list" via
 an email command.  Even if member's addresses are "hidden".
 Alternately, some way to, at least temporarily, "un-hide" all members.
 Alternately, some way to list all members on a single web page.
Please file this on the Mailman RFE page at SourceForge.
 Maybe I should be thinking about "maximum number of members per page"?
Could do, sure.
 Is that parameter likely to be available to me as a hosting service
 customer?
Unfortunately not.  ;(
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Re: [Mailman-Users] listowners.org

[Brad Knowles]

At 8:12 PM -0600 2005-03-03, Willie McKemie wrote:
 Now, I'm stuck (again).  Doing "~mailman/bin/list_members [listname] >
 [listname]" created [listname] but left it empty.
 Doing "~mailman/bin/list_lists > list_lists" created list_lists but
 left it empty.
	Ahh.  These might be permissions problems.  You may have execute 
permissions to run the scripts, but you might not have read 
permissions to access the data.

 So, it appears that I'm not really getting to my mailman data.
 Probably some path problem that I don't understand.
Could be, but I'd be willing to bet that it's actually a permissions 
issue.
	The only way to know for sure would be to get it working, and 
then figure out what had to be fixed.

 Taking some other tacks, I have access to supposed mailman backup files.
 Including there is a config.pck for each list.  The .pck files contain
 the subscribers, but not in an easily decipherable form.  Any idea what
 I might do with a .pck file?
	That's something you'd need to feed to one of the Mailman 
scripts.  With a local Mailman installation, a .pck file for a list, 
and the Mailman scripts, you should be able to do a list_members on 
that pickle file and have the system Do The Right Thing.

 I just did a local install of mailman to try to better understand where
 things are, but I haven't gotten it to start.  Probably because I don't
 have a mail server.  I do have apache running on the same box that has
 mailman.  Any suggestions on using a local mailman?  How to turn off the
 expectation of actually sending mail?
	I don't know that being unable to send e-mail should be a 
problem.  I'd expect you to be able to get all the web admin stuff 
working fine.  However, in your case, I don't think either the web 
nor the mail admin stuff is necessary.

	What I think you want to be able to do is to apply the Mailman 
scripts to configuration files from your lists, and that should be 
do-able without either a mail server or a web server.

--
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Re: [Mailman-Users] listowners.org

[Willie McKemie]

> 
> > HEY!  I think I've got it!  I put "~mailman/bin/list_members >
> > list_members" in a cron job and got a list_members file that contains
> > list_members help.
> 
>   Oh?  Wow.  I wouldn't have expected that you'd be that lucky.  Cool.

Now, I'm stuck (again).  Doing "~mailman/bin/list_members [listname] > 
[listname]" created [listname] but left it empty.

Doing "~mailman/bin/list_lists > list_lists" created list_lists but 
left it empty.

So, it appears that I'm not really getting to my mailman data.  
Probably some path problem that I don't understand.

Taking some other tacks, I have access to supposed mailman backup files. 
Including there is a config.pck for each list.  The .pck files contain 
the subscribers, but not in an easily decipherable form.  Any idea what 
I might do with a .pck file?

I just did a local install of mailman to try to better understand where 
things are, but I haven't gotten it to start.  Probably because I don't 
have a mail server.  I do have apache running on the same box that has 
mailman.  Any suggestions on using a local mailman?  How to turn off the 
expectation of actually sending mail?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] listowners.org

[Willie McKemie]

On Thu, Mar 03, 2005 at 08:54:39PM +0100, Brad Knowles wrote:
> At 6:27 AM -0600 2005-03-03, Willie McKemie wrote:
> 
> > Listowners.org has been down (to my knowledge) for several days.
> 
>   It's been down a lot longer than that.  See 
> .

Must not be many of us users of hosting services needing mailman help?

> 
> >Since
> > I need some help with a hosted mailman problem, should I wait for
> > listowners.org to become available again or should I join the
> > developer's list?
> 
>   I wouldn't recommend waiting on listowner.org.
> 
> > The problem? Extracting subscribers lists.
> 
>   I presume that the problem can't be resolved with list_members 
> and the other commands at 
> ?

No shell access to my hosting service.  I presume I would at least need 
the shell access to do a list_members?  I do have access to cron jobs 
and I have used that to poke around a bit and locate the subsriber 
lists.  No luck there.  Would I likely have access to list_members if I 
had shell access?

I have found that I can not easily get a list of subscribers emailed to 
me with a "who" command transmitted via email.  I would have to change 
a parameter on each and every subscriber via the web interface.  Total 
number of subscribers spread over two lists is about 400.  Is there a 
convenient way to expose the addresses of all subscribers?

In the past, I have copied and pasted out of the web listing of 
subscribers.  That, too, is pretty tedious at 20 a time.  Not something 
I'd want to do every week or so.

HEY!  I think I've got it!  I put "~mailman/bin/list_members > 
list_members" in a cron job and got a list_members file that contains 
list_members help.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] listowners.org

[Brad Knowles]

At 7:06 PM -0600 2005-03-03, Willie McKemie wrote:
 No shell access to my hosting service.
That would be a problem.
 I presume I would at least need
 the shell access to do a list_members?
Directly or indirectly, yes.
 I do have access to cron jobs
 and I have used that to poke around a bit and locate the subsriber
 lists.  No luck there.  Would I likely have access to list_members if I
 had shell access?
	Maybe, maybe not.  You'd have to have read and execute 
permissions available to you into the space where Mailman is 
installed, usually in /usr/local/mailman/.  Even if you had shell 
access, your hosting provider might not give you that kind of access.

 I have found that I can not easily get a list of subscribers emailed to
 me with a "who" command transmitted via email.  I would have to change
 a parameter on each and every subscriber via the web interface.  Total
 number of subscribers spread over two lists is about 400.  Is there a
 convenient way to expose the addresses of all subscribers?
	I think you're going to need to use the script tools I previously 
mentioned.  I don't remember the exact URL, you'll need to search the 
archives of the list.

 HEY!  I think I've got it!  I put "~mailman/bin/list_members >
 list_members" in a cron job and got a list_members file that contains
 list_members help.
Oh?  Wow.  I wouldn't have expected that you'd be that lucky.  Cool.
--
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Re: [Mailman-Users] listowners.org

[Chuq Von Rospach]

is the owner of listowerns.org around? if so, drop me a note, will you?  
I'm willing to take it over and operate it.

On Mar 3, 2005, at 11:54 AM, Brad Knowles wrote:
At 6:27 AM -0600 2005-03-03, Willie McKemie wrote:
 Listowners.org has been down (to my knowledge) for several days.
	It's been down a lot longer than that.  See  
.

Since
 I need some help with a hosted mailman problem, should I wait for
 listowners.org to become available again or should I join the
 developer's list?
I wouldn't recommend waiting on listowner.org.
 The problem? Extracting subscribers lists.
	I presume that the problem can't be resolved with list_members and  
the other commands at  
?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] listowners.org

[Brad Knowles]

At 6:27 AM -0600 2005-03-03, Willie McKemie wrote:
 Listowners.org has been down (to my knowledge) for several days.
	It's been down a lot longer than that.  See 
.

Since
 I need some help with a hosted mailman problem, should I wait for
 listowners.org to become available again or should I join the
 developer's list?
I wouldn't recommend waiting on listowner.org.
 The problem? Extracting subscribers lists.
	I presume that the problem can't be resolved with list_members 
and the other commands at 
?

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Brad Knowles, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755
  SAGE member since 1995.  See  for more info.
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[Mailman-Users] listowners.org

[Willie McKemie]

Listowners.org has been down (to my knowledge) for several days.  Since 
I need some help with a hosted mailman problem, should I wait for 
listowners.org to become available again or should I join the 
developer's list?

The problem? Extracting subscribers lists.

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