Re: [Mailman-Users] Probe message bounce bounced (with qmail)

[Mark Sapiro]

David Cuenca wrote:
>
>The failure notice message I receive is:
>
>Hi. This is the qmail-send program at myserver.mydomain.foo
>I tried to deliver a bounce message to this address, but the bounce bounced!
>
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>...
>
>
>
>In the Defaults.py file I have:
>
># VERP format and regexp for probe messages
>
>VERP_PROBE_FORMAT = '%(bounces)s+%(token)s'


This controls the format of the address in the probe and makes it look
like what you see above.


>VERP_PROBE_REGEXP = r'^(?P[^+]+?)\+(?P[EMAIL PROTECTED])@.*$'


This controls how Mailman parses the address in a probe bounce, but the
probe bounce doesn't get to Mailman, so it doesn't come into play.

>And I have the files:
>
>.qmail-default with:
>
>   |preline /usr/bin/python /usr/local/mailman/bin/qmail-to-mailman.py
>
>.qmail-mylist-bounces-default with:
>
>   |preline /usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces myslist
>
>
>I have mailman-2.1.5 and qmail-1.03 running.


I don't know qmail configuration, but what I'm guessing is happening is
some VERP configuration is missing from qmail so that qmail doesnt
recognize that mail to
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
(or for that matter
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) should be
delivered as if it were addressed to
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>.

>
>So, I see that the bounces are counted properly until the probe message 
>is generated. I suppose that the user that causes the bounce message 
>will not be disabled, because mailman don't receives the probe message 
>bounce.

I think you are correct.

--
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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[Mailman-Users] Probe message bounce bounced (with qmail)

[David Cuenca]

I'm getting a failure notice message when a mailing list probe message 
generates a bounce. It seems that I haven't configured qmail properly. 
Here there are details of my configuration and the error messages:

The failure notice message I receive is:

Hi. This is the qmail-send program at myserver.mydomain.foo
I tried to deliver a bounce message to this address, but the bounce bounced!

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
...



In the Defaults.py file I have:

# VERP format and regexp for probe messages

VERP_PROBE_FORMAT = '%(bounces)s+%(token)s'

VERP_PROBE_REGEXP = r'^(?P[^+]+?)\+(?P[EMAIL PROTECTED])@.*$'


And I have the files:

.qmail-default with:

|preline /usr/bin/python /usr/local/mailman/bin/qmail-to-mailman.py

.qmail-mylist-bounces-default with:

|preline /usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman bounces myslist


I have mailman-2.1.5 and qmail-1.03 running.

So, I see that the bounces are counted properly until the probe message 
is generated. I suppose that the user that causes the bounce message 
will not be disabled, because mailman don't receives the probe message 
bounce.

Can anyone help me, please??
Thanks a lot!

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Re: [Mailman-Users] probe message

[sean]

> > I'm running Mailman 2.1.5 and postfix 2.0.15.  I noticed some strange
> > bounce addresses in the mail logs:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Is this how probe messages sent the reply-to/from header to?
>
> kind of,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> is the VERP return-path used...
> I.e. the Variable Envelope Return Path.
>
> This is the ''return path'' used on the ENVELOPE, i.e. the
>   address used in "MAIL FROM:" SMTP command.
> This is the address to which bounces are delivered...
>
> Hence, probes use such 'silly' Envelope FROM: addresses with
>   a ''random'' hex. code whatnot in the address to have a reliable
>   way of checking that address really does bounce.

Not sure if this is the place to mention this but the README.POSTFIX file
should be updated since the probe messages depend on this feature as well:

In order to support Mailman's optional VERP delivery, you will
want to disable luser_relay (the default) and you will want to set
recipient_delimiter for extended address semantics.  You should
comment out any luser_relay value in your main.cf and just go with
the defaults.  Also, add this to your main.cf file:

recipient_delimiter = +

VERP was not enabled in my installation so I paid no attention to this
guideline.

Sean

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Re: [Mailman-Users] probe message

[Sean]

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> > I'm running Mailman 2.1.5 and postfix 2.0.15.  I noticed some strange
> > bounce addresses in the mail logs:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Is this how probe messages sent the reply-to/from header to?
>
> kind of,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> is the VERP return-path used...
> I.e. the Variable Envelope Return Path.
>
> This is the ''return path'' used on the ENVELOPE, i.e. the
>   address used in "MAIL FROM:" SMTP command.
> This is the address to which bounces are delivered...
>
> Hence, probes use such 'silly' Envelope FROM: addresses with
>   a ''random'' hex. code whatnot in the address to have a reliable
>   way of checking that address really does bounce.

Thanks, thats what I thought but wanted confirmation.

>
> The snag is, your MTA/alias-files/etc MAY not be delivering mail
>   with the listname-bounces+45894735478574893 code piped to mailman
>   like it's supposed to unless configured correctly.
> Unless this is working, this will break 'automatic disabling and
>   unsubscribing' of users with broken/bouncing email addresses.
>
> I don't know postfix

Yeah, the snag was that Postfix wasn't configured to handle these.  At
some point the 'recipient_delimiter = +' parameter got removed from the
main.cf file.  I've added it back in some these should be processed
correctly now.

Sean

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Re: [Mailman-Users] probe message

[enyc]

> I'm running Mailman 2.1.5 and postfix 2.0.15.  I noticed some strange
> bounce addresses in the mail logs:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Is this how probe messages sent the reply-to/from header to?

kind of,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
is the VERP return-path used...
I.e. the Variable Envelope Return Path.

This is the ''return path'' used on the ENVELOPE, i.e. the
  address used in "MAIL FROM:" SMTP command.
This is the address to which bounces are delivered...

Hence, probes use such 'silly' Envelope FROM: addresses with
  a ''random'' hex. code whatnot in the address to have a reliable
  way of checking that address really does bounce.

The snag is, your MTA/alias-files/etc MAY not be delivering mail
  with the listname-bounces+45894735478574893 code piped to mailman
  like it's supposed to unless configured correctly.
Unless this is working, this will break 'automatic disabling and 
  unsubscribing' of users with broken/bouncing email addresses.

I don't know postfix

> Sean
--"enyc" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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[Mailman-Users] probe message

[Sean]

I'm running Mailman 2.1.5 and postfix 2.0.15.  I noticed some strange
bounce addresses in the mail logs:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Is this how probe messages sent the reply-to/from header to?

Sean
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Probe Message Problem

[Mark Sapiro]

Gary Kaplan wrote (accidently?) off list:

>I have no idea what  Marks response means. Can someone please help?
>
>-Gary
>
>Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>> Gary Kaplan wrote:
>>
>>> One of my users informed me that she got this message in which a couple
>>> hundred address from the list were disclosed. I want to know if there 
>>> is a
>>> way to stop this. I don't want everyone who gets a probe message to see
>>> everyone's email address. I have noted where the address are listed 
>>> but left
>>> the actual addresses off.
>>>
>>>
 This is a probe message.  You can ignore this message.

>> 
>>

 Received: from mailnull by washington.hostforweb.net with local 
 (Exim 4.41)
 id 1C9XAp-000348-CZ
 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:02:19 -0400
 X-Failed-Recipients:
>>>
>>>
>>> At this point it lists a couple hundred email addresses
>>>
>>> Then is says this:
>>>
 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated
 From: Mail Delivery System <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender
 Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:02:19 -0400

 This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.

 A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
 recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) 
 failed:
>>>
>>>
>>> and list the addresses again.
>>
>>
>> It appears that Mailman is appending the bounce message to the probe
>> and in this case there were "a couple hundred" subscribers in the
>> washington.hostforweb.net domain that bounced.
>>
>> In any case, this seems to be sufficient reason to not append the
>> original bounce mesage to the probe.
>>
>> I'm far from fluent in Python, but it looks like either
>>
>>  self.sendProbe(member, msg)
>> in the routine
>>  def registerBounce(self, member, msg, weight=1.0, day=None):
>> in Bouncer.py
>>
>> or
>>  outer.attach(MIMEMessage(msg))
>> in
>>  def sendProbe(self, member, msg):
>> in Deliverer.py
>>
>> are places where this can be addressed.
>>

OK, let me try again.

>From the Mailman-2.1.5/NEWS file:

- The bounce processor has been redesigned so that now when an
  address's bounce score reaches the threshold, that address will
  be sent a probe message.  Only if the probe bounces will the
  address be disabled.  The score is reset to zero when the probe
  is sent.  Also, bounce events are now kept in an event file
  instead of in memory.  This should help contain the bloat of the
  BounceRunner.

What appears to have happened in your case is that you have "a couple
hundred" subscribers in the washington.hostforweb.net domain that all
bounced to the point of reaching the threshold causing a probe message
to be sent to each of the bouncing addresses. In at least one case and
maybe in all, the bouncing address was actually valid because the
probe reached the subscriber.

The problem here is that the bounce message that caused the score to
reach the threshold was appended to the probe, and it contained a list
of all the bouncing addresses in the domain.

I don't think it is necessary for Mailman to append the bounce message
to the probe message, and I think your experience is good reason not
to. Unfortunately, there appears to be no way in 2.1.5 to fix this
short of hacking the python code and I suggested a couple of places
where one could start looking if one wanted to do this.

As far as how often this might happen on your list is concerned, if all
or almost all the addresses are actually valid and do not normally
bounce, there was apparently some MTA transient situation that caused
these addresses to all be bouncing at once. If this is a situation
that might occur again, you might consider tuning your bounce
processing parameters to minimize the likelihood of valid addresses
reaching threshold. If, OTOH, almost all the addresses were in fact
bad, they are now gone and won't be "revealed" again.

--
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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RE: [Mailman-Users] Probe Message Problem

[Mark Sapiro]

Gary Kaplan wrote:

>One of my users informed me that she got this message in which a couple
>hundred address from the list were disclosed. I want to know if there is a
>way to stop this. I don't want everyone who gets a probe message to see
>everyone's email address. I have noted where the address are listed but left
>the actual addresses off.
>
>
>>This is a probe message.  You can ignore this message.
>>

>>
>>Received: from mailnull by washington.hostforweb.net with local (Exim 4.41)
>>  id 1C9XAp-000348-CZ
>>  for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:02:19 -0400
>>X-Failed-Recipients:
>
>At this point it lists a couple hundred email addresses
>
>Then is says this:
>
>>Auto-Submitted: auto-generated
>>From: Mail Delivery System <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender
>>Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:02:19 -0400
>>
>>This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.
>>
>>A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
>>recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
>
>and list the addresses again.

It appears that Mailman is appending the bounce message to the probe
and in this case there were "a couple hundred" subscribers in the
washington.hostforweb.net domain that bounced.

In any case, this seems to be sufficient reason to not append the
original bounce mesage to the probe.

I'm far from fluent in Python, but it looks like either

  self.sendProbe(member, msg)
in the routine
  def registerBounce(self, member, msg, weight=1.0, day=None):
in Bouncer.py

or
  outer.attach(MIMEMessage(msg))
in
  def sendProbe(self, member, msg):
in Deliverer.py

are places where this can be addressed.

--
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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RE: [Mailman-Users] Probe Message Problem

[Gary Kaplan]

One of my users informed me that she got this message in which a couple
hundred address from the list were disclosed. I want to know if there is a
way to stop this. I don't want everyone who gets a probe message to see
everyone's email address. I have noted where the address are listed but left
the actual addresses off.


>This is a probe message.  You can ignore this message.
>
>The Upcnews mailing list has received a number of bounces from you,
>indicating that there may be a problem delivering messages to
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] A bounce sample is attached below.  Please examine
>this message to make sure there are no problems with your email
>address.  You may want to check with your mail administrator for more
>help.
>
>If you are reading this, you don't need to do anything to remain an
>enabled member of the mailing list.  If this message had bounced, you
>would not be reading it, and your membership would have been disabled.
>Normally when you are disabled, you receive occasional messages asking
>you to re-enable your subscription.
>
>You can also visit your membership page at
>
>
>http://upc-online.org/mailman/options/upcnews_upc-online.org/sue%40jimgrish
am.com
>
>
>On your membership page, you can change various delivery options such
>as your email address and whether you get digests or not.  As a
>reminder, your membership password is
>
> ahneda
>
>If you have any questions or problems, you can contact the list owner
>at
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Received: from mailnull by washington.hostforweb.net with local (Exim 4.41)
>   id 1C9XAp-000348-CZ
>   for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:02:19 -0400
>X-Failed-Recipients:

At this point it lists a couple hundred email addresses

Then is says this:

>Auto-Submitted: auto-generated
>From: Mail Delivery System <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Mail delivery failed: returning message to sender
>Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 19:02:19 -0400
>
>This message was created automatically by mail delivery software.
>
>A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its
>recipients. This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:

and list the addresses again.

~~
Gary Kaplan
GK Graphic Designs
Web Design, Graphic Design, Photography
http://www.gkgraphicdesigns.com


-Original Message-
From: Brad Knowles [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 23, 2004 5:55 AM
To: Gary Kaplan
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Probe Message Problem


At 10:55 PM -0400 2004-09-20, Gary Kaplan wrote:

>  Untitled DocumentThe probe message that my list is sending out to members
>  who have had messages bounce list all the other users addresses who have
had
>  bounces. How can I fix this.

Could you give us some more details as to precisely what your
problem is, so that we have some idea of what you want fixed?

As a starting point, please see
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq01.022.htp>.

--
Brad Knowles, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

 -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
 Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755

   SAGE member since 1995.  See <http://www.sage.org/> for more info.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Probe Message Problem

[Brad Knowles]

At 10:55 PM -0400 2004-09-20, Gary Kaplan wrote:
 Untitled DocumentThe probe message that my list is sending out to members
 who have had messages bounce list all the other users addresses who have had
 bounces. How can I fix this.
	Could you give us some more details as to precisely what your 
problem is, so that we have some idea of what you want fixed?

	As a starting point, please see 
.

--
Brad Knowles, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little
temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania
Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755
  SAGE member since 1995.  See  for more info.
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[Mailman-Users] Probe Message Problem

[Gary Kaplan]

Untitled DocumentThe probe message that my list is sending out to members
who have had messages bounce list all the other users addresses who have had
bounces. How can I fix this.

Thanks'
-Gary
~~
Gary Kaplan
GK Graphic Designs
Web Design, Graphic Design, Photography
http://www.gkgraphicdesigns.com



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