Re: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure addresses problem)
On 9/5/06, Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 10:30 AM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: At least on Mailman 2.1.6, something about how the page where you enter the administrative password is designed prevents Firefox from remembering that password for me. It's extremely annoying, I have to go look that one up in Passwordsafe each time I use it, which is nearly daily. Anybody have any ideas? First off, please don't hijack existing threads and leave the subject line the same. If you have a new topic, please create a new message with a new subject. Sorry about this ending up attached to the thread. I don't see how it did, and it wasn't my intention. Secondly, your wording of this question suggests that you have not yet searched the FAQ or the archives before posting -- see FAQ 1.22. I can find nothing in the FAQ relating to this. However, the copy of the FAQ I have found doesn't have numbers (list.org, documentation, FAQ), so I'm not sure I've looked at the exact item you think addresses it. Where is this FAQ 1.22? -- David Dyer-Bennet, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ RKBA: http://www.dd-b.net/carry/ Pics: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/ Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure addresses problem)
David Dyer-Bennet sent the message below at 09:17 9/5/2006: On 9/5/06, Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 10:30 AM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: At least on Mailman 2.1.6, something about how the page where you enter the administrative password is designed prevents Firefox from remembering that password for me. It's extremely annoying, I have to go look that one up in Passwordsafe each time I use it, which is nearly daily. Anybody have any ideas? First off, please don't hijack existing threads and leave the subject line the same. If you have a new topic, please create a new message with a new subject. Sorry about this ending up attached to the thread. I don't see how it did, and it wasn't my intention. It is very likely that you simply hit Reply in your MUA which included the In-Reply-To: and/or References: header(s) in the e-mail. These are the headers that allow MUAs to do threading and are also used by Pipermail (Mailman's default archiver) to thread the messages in the archives. By just hitting Reply, you have attached the message to a particular thread which has no relevance to your question. By not changing the subject line, you have also not indicated anything about the actual subject of your inquiry. Secondly, your wording of this question suggests that you have not yet searched the FAQ or the archives before posting -- see FAQ 1.22. I can find nothing in the FAQ relating to this. However, the copy of the FAQ I have found doesn't have numbers (list.org, documentation, FAQ), so I'm not sure I've looked at the exact item you think addresses it. Where is this FAQ 1.22? It is linked in the footer at the bottom of every single e-mail posted to this list. There is also a link there to a searchable version of the list archives. Look at the end of this post and you will find those links. There may even be an answer to your question in the FAQ or archives. Dragon ~~~ Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus) ~~~ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure addresses problem)
At 11:17 AM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: First off, please don't hijack existing threads and leave the subject line the same. If you have a new topic, please create a new message with a new subject. Sorry about this ending up attached to the thread. I don't see how it did, and it wasn't my intention. When you reply to a previous message, this is what happens. If you have a new topic, please don't reply to a previous message and then continue on discussing whatever unrelated questions you may have. Secondly, your wording of this question suggests that you have not yet searched the FAQ or the archives before posting -- see FAQ 1.22. I can find nothing in the FAQ relating to this. However, the copy of the FAQ I have found doesn't have numbers (list.org, documentation, FAQ), so I'm not sure I've looked at the exact item you think addresses it. Where is this FAQ 1.22? The Mailman docs page at http://www.list.org/docs.html actually links to two different FAQs. One is the old developer-maintained page at http://www.list.org/faq.html, and one links to the newer community-driven Mailman FAQ Wizard at http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py. In addition, if you look at the footer of every single post to this list, you will see the following information: -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showfile=faq01.027.htp -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA. See http://www.lopsa.org/. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure addresses problem)
On 9/5/06, Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 11:17 AM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: First off, please don't hijack existing threads and leave the subject line the same. If you have a new topic, please create a new message with a new subject. Sorry about this ending up attached to the thread. I don't see how it did, and it wasn't my intention. When you reply to a previous message, this is what happens. If you have a new topic, please don't reply to a previous message and then continue on discussing whatever unrelated questions you may have. I suppose that could be what happened. Look, I've been participating on Arpanet and Internet email lists since 1981, but every now and then the fingers don't quite do it right, and we're all just going to have to live with that; the perfect error-free human being has not yet been invented. Secondly, your wording of this question suggests that you have not yet searched the FAQ or the archives before posting -- see FAQ 1.22. I can find nothing in the FAQ relating to this. However, the copy of the FAQ I have found doesn't have numbers (list.org, documentation, FAQ), so I'm not sure I've looked at the exact item you think addresses it. Where is this FAQ 1.22? The Mailman docs page at http://www.list.org/docs.html actually links to two different FAQs. One is the old developer-maintained page at http://www.list.org/faq.html, and one links to the newer community-driven Mailman FAQ Wizard at http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py. Ah, they have different content. Okay. And I've now checked through the Wizard-driven FAQ and also find nothing relevant. In addition, if you look at the footer of every single post to this list, you will see the following information: Oops, my fault again; gmail was hiding it. I'm not used to these stupid MUAs that muck about so much with the messages. So, now I've checked both FAQs (I had already checked the official FAQ before my first post, which I thought was fairly obvious from what I wrote) and there's nothing relevant to this that I can find. I hope you've had a good time picking on the minor mistake I made (where my message ended up attached to an existing thread), but could you perhaps take a second or two to consider *my actual question*? Why doesn't Firefox (or other browsers, I think I've seen the same behavior in Opera) offer me the chance to remember the Administrative password for my site? -- David Dyer-Bennet, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ RKBA: http://www.dd-b.net/carry/ Pics: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/ Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure addresses problem)
At 11:55 AM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: I suppose that could be what happened. Look, I've been participating on Arpanet and Internet email lists since 1981, but every now and then the fingers don't quite do it right, and we're all just going to have to live with that; the perfect error-free human being has not yet been invented. True enough. However, when a mistake like this occurs, you should likewise be prepared for a reminder such as the one I gave you. You and I both have been around long enough to teach others about netiquette for over twenty years, and when we recognize that we've accidentally done something then it shouldn't be a surprise when others tell us about netiquette. Ah, they have different content. Yup. They're different. Okay. And I've now checked through the Wizard-driven FAQ and also find nothing relevant. Did you search for reauthentication? Or saving my changes? What did you search for? Maybe we need to update the subject lines or the content of the FAQ Wizard. Why doesn't Firefox (or other browsers, I think I've seen the same behavior in Opera) offer me the chance to remember the Administrative password for my site? I'm not yet convinced that there is anything here that is not answered in the FAQs. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA. See http://www.lopsa.org/. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure addresses problem)
On 9/5/06, Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 11:55 AM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: Okay. And I've now checked through the Wizard-driven FAQ and also find nothing relevant. Did you search for reauthentication? Or saving my changes? No; I searched for password and firefox, I believe. Obviously there were a number of entries mentioning passwords, but none about saving them. What did you search for? Maybe we need to update the subject lines or the content of the FAQ Wizard. I'd suggest making sure password is in the index for that FAQ, yes. If there *is* such a FAQ; you haven't yet exhibited one that has anything to do with the issue I'm raising. I don't see where saving my changes would come in; definitely not something I'd search for when the issue is that browsers aren't recognizing a password field. Why doesn't Firefox (or other browsers, I think I've seen the same behavior in Opera) offer me the chance to remember the Administrative password for my site? I'm not yet convinced that there is anything here that is not answered in the FAQs. I'm not convinced there's anything about this in the FAQ. 4.65 is not about the issue I'm raising; that's about cookie issues, whereas my case is that the password field isn't recognized in the first place. -- David Dyer-Bennet, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ RKBA: http://www.dd-b.net/carry/ Pics: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/ Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure addresses problem)
At 1:14 PM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: Did you search for reauthentication? Or saving my changes? No; I searched for password and firefox, I believe. Obviously there were a number of entries mentioning passwords, but none about saving them. Correct, there are a number of entries that mention password, which is why this isn't the best search term. Nevertheless, I have gone ahead and modified the subject lines of the two most relevant FAQ entries to also include the term password. What did you search for? Maybe we need to update the subject lines or the content of the FAQ Wizard. I'd suggest making sure password is in the index for that FAQ, yes. It already is. Indeed, the problem is that searching for the term password comes up with too many entries, most of which may not be relevant to your particular problem. However, there are now two more entries which also mention the term password in their subject lines. If there *is* such a FAQ; you haven't yet exhibited one that has anything to do with the issue I'm raising. You apparently did not take the hint that I gave you previously. You really should search for the term reauthentication, which will come back with one and only one FAQ entry, which I believe is relevant to your query. You should also search for the phrase saving my changes, which will come back with one and only one FAQ entry (which is different from the other one), which might also be relevant. I don't see where saving my changes would come in; definitely not something I'd search for when the issue is that browsers aren't recognizing a password field. Try reading the two FAQ entries in question. If you can come up with some suggested improvements to the wording, please go ahead and do so. After all, this is a community supported document, and all the information you need for making changes to any of the FAQ entries is already present on the page. Why doesn't Firefox (or other browsers, I think I've seen the same behavior in Opera) offer me the chance to remember the Administrative password for my site? I'm not yet convinced that there is anything here that is not answered in the FAQs. I'm not convinced there's anything about this in the FAQ. That's possible. If this really is a browser-specific issue with Firefox, then it would be the very first time I've ever heard of this kind of thing, and I frequently use Firefox myself. 4.65 is not about the issue I'm raising; that's about cookie issues, whereas my case is that the password field isn't recognized in the first place. Maybe I'm wrong, but you should at least look at the other FAQ entry as well. If I am wrong, then this is the very first time I've ever heard of such problems with Firefox, and will require a new FAQ entry. While this wouldn't be the first application-specific FAQ entry, it would be the first one that is specific to Firefox, and I believe it would also be the first one that is specific to a particular web browser -- all other application-specific FAQ entries I know of have to do with other types of programs, and web browsers appear to have acted more or less the same with regards to these kinds of things. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA. See http://www.lopsa.org/. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure addresses problem)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 David Dyer-Bennet wrote: I'm not convinced there's anything about this in the FAQ. 4.65 is not about the issue I'm raising; that's about cookie issues, whereas my case is that the password field isn't recognized in the first place. I've tested this on systems running both 2.1.5 and 2.1.8 and it works fine for me with Firefox 1.5.0.6. The admin login html hasn't changed for any of those releases. I don't see how this would be a mailman issue. Even if firefox failed to save the password for me as well, I'd see that as a firefox problem. The html that mailman uses for that form is pretty basic, so firefox would have to be pretty broken if it couldn't handle it. Have you tried using another firefox profile (or from another machine entirely) to verify that this isn't something specific to your firefox config/system setup? - -- ToddOpenPGP - KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp == Vote early and vote often. -- Al Capone (1899-1947) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iQFDBAEBAgAtBQJE/cYyJhhodHRwOi8vd3d3LnBvYm94LmNvbS9+dG16L3BncC90 bXouYXNjAAoJEEMlk4u+rwzjz6MH/3XCXktw1ajm5ShxZuEoeY/JHAGOT/S1zgnn R+mCx4G9k+NPxpTdxMHJHdlnGwpBr40o0KQtHIN/zWkp2K5mAnju3OTW7eidzgDl Xj3eRjXf+olffJYsGcS1dVkqDQxsoQu9ofOfY0R+9ro8MrdypHDe8JRz7xdVwx+q e3eq4WRFG6lOLF0YSIrj8lfcvLH/IkheUWDX+s745YA4+3Gm6fztlMRmG5TmV1bZ yjVyTq/TR9Oi09NfRUvg2tGPFZZRpsraUgp8LD3HKdosAwgS1xBPEVwRcM72zNsB YIM4xqCNixEMU2rF2oCOvoy+aey4ZqEd2tUF2sw9o+B1gbkXA3o= =nTR+ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure addresses problem)
On 9/5/06, Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 1:14 PM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: Did you search for reauthentication? Or saving my changes? No; I searched for password and firefox, I believe. Obviously there were a number of entries mentioning passwords, but none about saving them. Correct, there are a number of entries that mention password, which is why this isn't the best search term. Nevertheless, I have gone ahead and modified the subject lines of the two most relevant FAQ entries to also include the term password. While I agree it's not a wonderful search term by virtue of being relevant to a lot of different FAQs, it's the one people will be looking for in this case; the problem is that their browser doesn't offer to remember their password. If there *is* such a FAQ; you haven't yet exhibited one that has anything to do with the issue I'm raising. You apparently did not take the hint that I gave you previously. You really should search for the term reauthentication, which will come back with one and only one FAQ entry, which I believe is relevant to your query. You should also search for the phrase saving my changes, which will come back with one and only one FAQ entry (which is different from the other one), which might also be relevant. Could you *please* drop your condescending tone about 10 decibels? I *did* search for reauthentication, it's how I got to FAQ 4.65, which I mention below. ***THAT IS NOT RELEVANT TO MY PROBLEM.*** I have said this before, several times. I'm getting tired of not being listened to. Also FAW 4.45 is not relevant to my problem. They're about a different set of symptoms entirely. My problem, as I have said from the beginning, is that browsers (specifically Firefox, though I note the same problem reported against Safari in feature request 966157) do not recognize the password field on the mailing list administrator login page as a password field, and hence do not offer to save it for me, and hence make it much, much harder to deal with mailing list administration than it needs to be. I don't see where saving my changes would come in; definitely not something I'd search for when the issue is that browsers aren't recognizing a password field. Try reading the two FAQ entries in question. If you can come up with some suggested improvements to the wording, please go ahead and do so. After all, this is a community supported document, and all the information you need for making changes to any of the FAQ entries is already present on the page. I HAVE read the FAQ entries in question. I don't want to change those two, becaues they're not relevant to this issue (and presumably *are* relevant to the issues they are addressing, so I shouldn't hijack them). Why doesn't Firefox (or other browsers, I think I've seen the same behavior in Opera) offer me the chance to remember the Administrative password for my site? I'm not yet convinced that there is anything here that is not answered in the FAQs. I'm not convinced there's anything about this in the FAQ. That's possible. If this really is a browser-specific issue with Firefox, then it would be the very first time I've ever heard of this kind of thing, and I frequently use Firefox myself. It's probably not specific to Firefox. I reported it against Firefox because that's where I've actually seen it happen. I seem to remember seeing it in Opera as well. And as I mentioned above, another user has reported it in Safari. 4.65 is not about the issue I'm raising; that's about cookie issues, whereas my case is that the password field isn't recognized in the first place. Maybe I'm wrong, but you should at least look at the other FAQ entry as well. If I am wrong, then this is the very first time I've ever heard of such problems with Firefox, and will require a new FAQ entry. While this wouldn't be the first application-specific FAQ entry, it would be the first one that is specific to Firefox, and I believe it would also be the first one that is specific to a particular web browser -- all other application-specific FAQ entries I know of have to do with other types of programs, and web browsers appear to have acted more or less the same with regards to these kinds of things. I wrote what would have been 3.67, only to then be told that it wasn't actually open to anybody to post after all; so to keep that work from going to waste I post it here, and propose it be included (or improved and then included): Summary: Some browsers do not recognize the password on the list administrator authentication page Firefox and Safari, and quite possibly other browsers, do not recognize the password entry field on the administrator list authentication web page as a password field, and hence do not offer to remember it for you. The password field is named adminpw in the form rather than password, and the
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure addresses problem)
On 9/5/06, Todd Zullinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 David Dyer-Bennet wrote: I'm not convinced there's anything about this in the FAQ. 4.65 is not about the issue I'm raising; that's about cookie issues, whereas my case is that the password field isn't recognized in the first place. I've tested this on systems running both 2.1.5 and 2.1.8 and it works fine for me with Firefox 1.5.0.6. The admin login html hasn't changed for any of those releases. I don't see how this would be a mailman issue. Even if firefox failed to save the password for me as well, I'd see that as a firefox problem. The html that mailman uses for that form is pretty basic, so firefox would have to be pretty broken if it couldn't handle it. Same Firefox version I have. Mailman 2.1.6, though (Dreamhost.com's installation, not under my control). I had the same thing happening on my previous Mailman installation, though, which was whatever debian sarge is at -- seems to be 2.1.5. I have the same thing happen on the Dreamhost installation using Opera 9 (build 8501). Have you tried using another firefox profile (or from another machine entirely) to verify that this isn't something specific to your firefox config/system setup? If firefox has profiles, they're not in the menu and not in the help (under that name). But I tried Opera as well, and I've seen this over the last two years with various browser installations. Try http://lists.dragaera.info/admin.cgi/dragaera-dragaera.info, put in an invalid password (unless you get *really* lucky guessing), and I don't expect your browser will offer it back to you when you come to try again; it doesn't for me. I find I have mis-described the problem; Firefox *does* recognize the password and save it, I can see it in the list of saved passwords. What it doesn't do is *offer it back* when I return to the page. Same net result, I have to look it up and put it in each time, but different path to get there. -- David Dyer-Bennet, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ RKBA: http://www.dd-b.net/carry/ Pics: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/ Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure addresses problem)
On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:23:42 -0500 David Dyer-Bennet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My problem, as I have said from the beginning, is that browsers (specifically Firefox, though I note the same problem reported against Safari in feature request 966157) do not recognize the password field on the mailing list administrator login page as a password field, and hence do not offer to save it for me, and hence make it much, much harder to deal with mailing list administration than it needs to be. What I cannot understand, since this is a browser issue, is that it becomes a Mailman problem. Should Mailman, and every web site on the Internet, change their programming? Should the browser programmers change their programming? I suppose the answer to those questions depend on who is asked. -- Raquel This above all: to thine own self be true; And it must follow, as the night the day; Thou canst not then be false to any man. --William Shakespeare -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure addresses problem)
On 9/5/06, Raquel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 14:23:42 -0500 David Dyer-Bennet [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My problem, as I have said from the beginning, is that browsers (specifically Firefox, though I note the same problem reported against Safari in feature request 966157) do not recognize the password field on the mailing list administrator login page as a password field, and hence do not offer to save it for me, and hence make it much, much harder to deal with mailing list administration than it needs to be. What I cannot understand, since this is a browser issue, is that it becomes a Mailman problem. Should Mailman, and every web site on the Internet, change their programming? Should the browser programmers change their programming? I suppose the answer to those questions depend on who is asked. It's an issue in the interaction of browsers and Mailman. It could almost certainly be fixed by either side. If you want to start a finger-pointing contest and say not my problem that's your privilege of course, but they can do so just as validly on the other side. The schemes currently implemented in many browsers work with a huge array of sites out there, everything from ebay to amazon to sourceforge to slashdot to The New York Times, thousands and thousands of sites. Unfortunately they do not seem to work with Mailman. You can argue that everybody is wrong except Mailman, and all the browsers should change to support the way Mailman wants to do this (while, of course, not breaking any of the *other* sites they already work with). If you want to argue that, please go ahead; there may be additional reasons I haven't yet seen or thought of why what Mailman does is so right that it's more important than whether it works with existing browsers, and so right that when we make the argument to the browser community they will all rush to fix the browsers. That's entirely possible. So, make the argument. -- David Dyer-Bennet, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ RKBA: http://www.dd-b.net/carry/ Pics: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/ Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure addresses problem)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 David Dyer-Bennet wrote: On 9/5/06, Todd Zullinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If firefox has profiles, they're not in the menu and not in the help (under that name). I don't know the various ways to change the profiles in firefox, but running the command line firefox -ProfileManager will open up the profile manager. The -P option will use the profile you specify. But I think this is irrelavant after reading your text below... Try http://lists.dragaera.info/admin.cgi/dragaera-dragaera.info, put in an invalid password (unless you get *really* lucky guessing), and I don't expect your browser will offer it back to you when you come to try again; it doesn't for me. Yeah, I didn't get luck on my first and only try. Firefox did offer to save the password, but it did not fill it in automatically for me on return. I am fairly sure that it used to, though I'm not positive and I don't know whrn this might have changed. It hasn't changed on the mailman side very recently. I find I have mis-described the problem; Firefox *does* recognize the password and save it, I can see it in the list of saved passwords. What it doesn't do is *offer it back* when I return to the page. Same net result, I have to look it up and put it in each time, but different path to get there. This is definitely a firefox bug, AFAIAK. If Firefox is smart enough to offer to save the password, then it needs to be smart enough to fill it back in on return to the same page. Unless someone in the firefox camp can show that the spartan HTML generated on the mailman admin logon page is just plain wrong, I can't see how changing it is a problem that mailman should deal with. - -- ToddOpenPGP - KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp == Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -- Milton Friedman -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iQFDBAEBAgAtBQJE/d1WJhhodHRwOi8vd3d3LnBvYm94LmNvbS9+dG16L3BncC90 bXouYXNjAAoJEEMlk4u+rwzj574H/im4R8BOBb5hSSCH/YINNJH6vHGlXdCLQ12S fQ3r/6eLJRG6ddWKMZ0ASMsmcoiELOFsNWflCeb4yCx77oDy8EMXdf4ZxsLDGel/ WbERWlSQcW9jRRsIkbZxS4nvi1ffirscl1B2/e6JxoiZU8yU6HyGT9NNUeVBXu/N ovDcSDrTLDeXttiNNjNm6enxeJQabMFPELEqGe4V7d/arjNtGHdzS7UXs+0EoSX5 0/W04kvvOUx1dDl945VlgxVEgzgLQHYLPkKOKBaqi11DwkTOriQgvQPjSySwqtFS OsA3pnxNvj6pOz6C1ElR74PLixWIYiAAkBsKvv07iKTZHR+3ySo= =+wHH -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure addresses problem)
At 2:23 PM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: While I agree it's not a wonderful search term by virtue of being relevant to a lot of different FAQs, it's the one people will be looking for in this case; the problem is that their browser doesn't offer to remember their password. Unfortunately, with 25 different entries being returned matching the term password, I fear that it is going to be difficult for most people to figure out which ones are or are not related to their particular question. That's part of why I made a point of using the term reauthentication on one particular entry, and I've tried to describe the problems using as much of the same terminology as the person who initially brought the subject to my attention. I *did* search for reauthentication, it's how I got to FAQ 4.65, which I mention below. I saw that later, but there was no clear indication that you had read both entries, and at that point I still had not received enough information from you to convince me that neither of these were actually related to the problem you were having. My problem, as I have said from the beginning, is that browsers (specifically Firefox, though I note the same problem reported against Safari in feature request 966157) do not recognize the password field on the mailing list administrator login page as a password field, and hence do not offer to save it for me, and hence make it much, much harder to deal with mailing list administration than it needs to be. Which sounds to me pretty much exactly like the problems described in FAQ 4.64 and 4.45, namely that your password is not being saved and you keep being asked to re-enter it. The precise mechanism of the failure may be different, but the high-level description is essentially the same. We need some way to differentiate between the underlying problems, and it's still not clear to me what the real underlying problem is or how it should be fixed -- or even if we should try to fix it within the Mailman code. I HAVE read the FAQ entries in question. I don't want to change those two, becaues they're not relevant to this issue (and presumably *are* relevant to the issues they are addressing, so I shouldn't hijack them). Fair enough. Then a new FAQ entry would be appropriate. I wrote what would have been 3.67, only to then be told that it wasn't actually open to anybody to post after all; so to keep that work from going to waste I post it here, and propose it be included (or improved and then included): Look closely. All the information you need is actually right there. You're asked for your full name, your e-mail address, and the password. The password is actually given to you in multiple places, and is pretty obvious -- although I'm not going to explicitly mention it in this public forum. With those three pieces of information, anyone can create a new FAQ entry or edit an existing one. In fact, that's how I got involved in the Mailman project several years ago -- I installed Mailman at my site, I started seeing lots of common questions coming up on the list, and I started combing through all the FAQ entries. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA. See http://www.lopsa.org/. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure addresses problem)
At 2:58 PM -0500 2006-09-05, David Dyer-Bennet wrote: Same Firefox version I have. Mailman 2.1.6, though (Dreamhost.com's installation, not under my control). Ahh. In which case, you should also see FAQ 1.32, and be aware that Dreamhost.com may well have made some localized modifications -- perhaps not as bad as cPanel, Plesk, or Apple, but still non-standard nonetheless. I had the same thing happening on my previous Mailman installation, though, which was whatever debian sarge is at -- seems to be 2.1.5. Whose package were you using? Do you know if they made any modifications? I find I have mis-described the problem; Firefox *does* recognize the password and save it, I can see it in the list of saved passwords. What it doesn't do is *offer it back* when I return to the page. Same net result, I have to look it up and put it in each time, but different path to get there. I don't understand why Firefox, Opera, and all the other browsers you have used have acted in the same way, and why others don't seem to be having the same problems when using the same browsers. But given this additional information, this most definitely seems to be a pure browser issue to me, and not a problem with Mailman. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA. See http://www.lopsa.org/. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure addresses problem)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 David Dyer-Bennet wrote: It's an issue in the interaction of browsers and Mailman. It could almost certainly be fixed by either side. If you want to start a finger-pointing contest and say not my problem that's your privilege of course, but they can do so just as validly on the other side. The schemes currently implemented in many browsers work with a huge array of sites out there, everything from ebay to amazon to sourceforge to slashdot to The New York Times, thousands and thousands of sites. Unfortunately they do not seem to work with Mailman. You can argue that everybody is wrong except Mailman, and all the browsers should change to support the way Mailman wants to do this (while, of course, not breaking any of the *other* sites they already work with). If you want to argue that, please go ahead; there may be additional reasons I haven't yet seen or thought of why what Mailman does is so right that it's more important than whether it works with existing browsers, and so right that when we make the argument to the browser community they will all rush to fix the browsers. That's entirely possible. So, make the argument. Perhaps you should first show how mailman is broken here. If you're claim is that all sites which have a password entry form need to use both a username and password or that the password field needs to be named password, then I'm just going to chuckle. If there is something actually broken about the way that mailman's admin page presents itself and makes it impossible for a sane browser to save the password, then point it out explicitly. References to any related RFC or other standard specification would be a big plus. - -- ToddOpenPGP - KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp == I've had a perfectly wonderful evening. But this wasn't it. -- Groucho Marx -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iQFDBAEBAgAtBQJE/d9cJhhodHRwOi8vd3d3LnBvYm94LmNvbS9+dG16L3BncC90 bXouYXNjAAoJEEMlk4u+rwzjZ8IH+QGNeGffliYhlihWflV+WP2T9GGsotXi6XJA RQmpLw59sAblRiAnPf3M+D7ricul5UZiGdGqvEUNRl6Ubwr4IyeIH/QeAmeKWPxk WLFJ6VJjVbzHh9+RqkcBG02sinklWxgNMmMyK/G8XvShumJjRzUgbI5x7DCxt872 +5zLJbx0kC1vY/spAxiG5Zy43SyKWXqq0iFHo1Hrd+St1YVaP0/k0AddeGUG4UTb Y8pKzwWoJ+tkHvmto4gtSlk0oy6/3/K9uoA1O7BmYpwDKzLSkWEuGoS6w4KftQsr Tp6P7e9kMvhVe1bq7vn7Ce8JmOi5y47THrFcZZsY1aQ/U/6nRQU= =RvQJ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure addresses problem)
David Dyer-Bennet sent the message below at 12:58 9/5/2006: I find I have mis-described the problem; Firefox *does* recognize the password and save it, I can see it in the list of saved passwords. What it doesn't do is *offer it back* when I return to the page. Same net result, I have to look it up and put it in each time, but different path to get there. End original message. - Mailman is not broken just because it does not work the way you want it to with the browser you have chosen to use. If you can show how the implementation mailman uses is fundamentally wrong with a reference to an applicable RFC, I think then it would be appropriate for the mailman developers to address the issue. Until then, this is a problem with your browser and the browser developer is the appropriate organization to deal with the problem. Even if you did come up with such a reference and mailman is fundamentally broken, there are other issues that are likely to take priority over what is really just a minor annoyance. This list, being a support list for mailman, is thus not the appropriate place to address this issue. Filing a bug report or feature request with the developers of Firefox (or any other similarly affected browser) is the right course of action. Dragon ~~~ Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus) ~~~ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure addresses problem)
On 9/5/06, Todd Zullinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is definitely a firefox bug, AFAIAK. If Firefox is smart enough to offer to save the password, then it needs to be smart enough to fill it back in on return to the same page. Unless someone in the firefox camp can show that the spartan HTML generated on the mailman admin logon page is just plain wrong, I can't see how changing it is a problem that mailman should deal with. And it's apparently fixed in 2.0 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=235336. Thanks to everybody for their assistance working out what was going on here. I apologize for the heat I contributed to the discussion (while pleading in extenuation that I was provoked). -- David Dyer-Bennet, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ RKBA: http://www.dd-b.net/carry/ Pics: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/ Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure addresses problem)
On 9/5/06, Todd Zullinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 David Dyer-Bennet wrote: It's an issue in the interaction of browsers and Mailman. It could almost certainly be fixed by either side. If you want to start a finger-pointing contest and say not my problem that's your privilege of course, but they can do so just as validly on the other side. The schemes currently implemented in many browsers work with a huge array of sites out there, everything from ebay to amazon to sourceforge to slashdot to The New York Times, thousands and thousands of sites. Unfortunately they do not seem to work with Mailman. You can argue that everybody is wrong except Mailman, and all the browsers should change to support the way Mailman wants to do this (while, of course, not breaking any of the *other* sites they already work with). If you want to argue that, please go ahead; there may be additional reasons I haven't yet seen or thought of why what Mailman does is so right that it's more important than whether it works with existing browsers, and so right that when we make the argument to the browser community they will all rush to fix the browsers. That's entirely possible. So, make the argument. Perhaps you should first show how mailman is broken here. If you're claim is that all sites which have a password entry form need to use both a username and password or that the password field needs to be named password, then I'm just going to chuckle. If there is something actually broken about the way that mailman's admin page presents itself and makes it impossible for a sane browser to save the password, then point it out explicitly. References to any related RFC or other standard specification would be a big plus. If you want to take a rules-lawyer approach and use it to resist any suggestion of change, be my guest. So far as I know, what's at issue here is the question of interoperability in an area where there are no formal standards in play. So, from a rules-lawyer point of view, clearly nobody is at fault. From a real-world point of view, there's still a problem. Given that Firefox was picking up the password, but was NOT offering it back on later visits, I'll accept the argument that the basic problem is really in Firefox. Apparently so do they, and they've fixed it in an upcoming release, see my recent previous message. -- David Dyer-Bennet, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ RKBA: http://www.dd-b.net/carry/ Pics: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/ Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure addresses problem)
On 9/5/06, Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wrote what would have been 3.67, only to then be told that it wasn't actually open to anybody to post after all; so to keep that work from going to waste I post it here, and propose it be included (or improved and then included): Look closely. All the information you need is actually right there. You're asked for your full name, your e-mail address, and the password. The password is actually given to you in multiple places, and is pretty obvious -- although I'm not going to explicitly mention it in this public forum. Now *that* really pissed me off. The page linked from the help button on the FAQ edit page says What is the password? The webmaster will tell you the password if you ask nicely. I really don't much like scavenger-hunt-as-security-metaphor, but maybe that help should be updated somehow to suggest the real situation more accurately. I'll be updating the new FAQ with one more point, the Firefox bug number (closed for 2.0) referring to this problem, and posting it shortly. Unless yet *another* booby-trap trips me up yet *again*. -- David Dyer-Bennet, mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED], http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/ RKBA: http://www.dd-b.net/carry/ Pics: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/ Dragaera/Steven Brust: http://dragaera.info/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hijacking threads and netiquette (was: e: Obscure addresses problem)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 David Dyer-Bennet wrote: If you want to take a rules-lawyer approach and use it to resist any suggestion of change, be my guest. So far as I know, what's at issue here is the question of interoperability in an area where there are no formal standards in play. So, from a rules-lawyer point of view, clearly nobody is at fault. No, firefox is at fault. They save the password as feature and then fail to re-use it when it would be useful. Mailman has no part in this at all and asking anyone that develops a web site to change their code to suit the arbitrary scheme a browser uses to save passwords is pointless. If there were some sort of RFC that outlined how such a process should work, then it'd be fairly simple to change the mailman html output to meet it. Without that, whose arbitrary scheme would mailman use? Making one work may break another and lead to more user coming here asking why their favorite broswer's unique scheme for recognizing a pasword to save didn't work. From a real-world point of view, there's still a problem. Yep. A firefox problem. Given that Firefox was picking up the password, but was NOT offering it back on later visits, I'll accept the argument that the basic problem is really in Firefox. Apparently so do they, and they've fixed it in an upcoming release, see my recent previous message. Glad to hear it. - -- ToddOpenPGP - KeyID: 0xBEAF0CE3 | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp == There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil to one who is striking at the root. -- Henry David Thoreau -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iQFDBAEBAgAtBQJE/eqeJhhodHRwOi8vd3d3LnBvYm94LmNvbS9+dG16L3BncC90 bXouYXNjAAoJEEMlk4u+rwzjawIH/0NHlilX1iHm8iFFHO950PO5Ao8epYR2eqAZ XpHq7+KtU6Zde9nTPiYzMqnKcILZtEwCBnYV1fmTOb0jrYX9Nj41Qzpwi2yUR3Wy Nr6O3sR8uaK401SeUSimsmGUTRXxfFCcbLCxlqy904udlsLXHypXlMoZ2fQ7J4C1 OT2ZpUdGVBIUa441WSU4ALKO5FrUI4LBjgki3Mi1FZqfHT2FZKcS1Ov1ys1uV089 q9cK7YTYBvn19rrYwXb+bxaa0uKHJV33PZ/o2OkLDazz/hp8D5g4bOHmxu1it6Kx zMLNVce4t44SStTUH1dVhyLT1WN7T4CcHaMN4o7OMDt2wnCgflM= =4IQ/ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
