Re: [Mailman-Users] Hotmail Delivery Problems
At 5:24 PM -0700 2005-09-20, Lloyd F. Tennison wrote: Has anyone else here had the same problems? It all started when they did a software service upgrade last Wednesday night (They told me they did indeed do a upgrade then.) The FAQ entry at http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showfile=faq03.042.htp is not specifically about hotmail, but is generally applicable to any large-scale mail provider. It is useful to try to gather more information on this problem from other list administrators. However, please keep in mind that, even if you do discover that there is some sort of major problem (either wide-spread, or specific to your site), there may be little or nothing you can do about it. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See http://www.sage.org/ for more info. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hotmail Delivery Problems
appreciate knowing. In addition, not listed before I also use SURBL to prevent receiving SPAM. None of the messages that are triggered actually are delivered as they are refused before they reach the server - in the ACL's. Please let me know whatever additional information I may give you to make sure this problem does not happen again. I can forward you data from the two other major ISP's mail service companies on their testing and whitelisting of my server, if you wish (AOL and Yahoo.) I know that you do things differently, but at least that would show my diligence and how long I have been doing this. Thank you for your time, Lloyd Tennison - Original Message - Subject: RE: Mail Delivery Problems from My Server, SRX050915606674 Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:01:43 -0700 From: GEST HM Inbox [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Lloyd, Your IP is blocked by MSN Hotmail because the vast majority of all the email that you send to us has been judged to be spam by MSN Hotmail's internal filtering system. One possible explanation for this is the automatic forwarding of unfiltered inbound messages, including spam messages, to MSN/Hotmail addresses. This block lasts for 24 to 48 hours and then is removed. If again the large majority of all the email from the IP is marked as spam it is blocked again, and so on indefinitely. Please confirm that your emails comply with MSN Hotmail's technical standards. This information can be found at: http://advertising.msn.com/adproducts/Email_TechStd.asp. It will also be helpful to send example emails directly to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that we can examine the types of emails that you send. This will help us in our investigation.When you do this please send us the subject lines of emails you have sent. Please make sure that these emails are as functionally similar to the types of emails that originate from your system, as any deviation from this may hinder our ability to investigate your problem. We have performed a manual unblocking of your IP for this purpose. Please note that our filters are automated, and they will reinstitute an IP block if they see similar activity in the future. For information on common delivery questions please refer to the Hotmail Postmaster Site found at: http://postmaster.msn.com/.MSN Hotmail has also created the Smart Network Data Services program.This is a service that helps legitimate email senders work with their customers and partners to reduce spam originating from their IP. http://postmaster.msn.com/snds/. Additionally you may want to investigate the Microsoft Sender ID program. http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/safety/technologies/senderid/default.msp x. While neither the SNDS nor Sender ID will enable emails from you domain to bypass our filtering system they will help in the fight against spam. Additionally you should consider evaluating the Bonded Sender program. Bonded Sender (www.bondedsender.com) is the only White Listing service to which we subscribe. The only other way to ensure that your customers will receive your mail in their Inboxes would be to request that they each add your domain to their Safe List within their Hotmail mailboxes. Though this seems to be cumbersome, several other mail senders have been able to do with without too much trouble by putting the steps into the mail they send (usually at the very top or very bottom) or putting the announcement on their web site. Attached is a .doc with screenshots and instructions showing how this may be done. Please feel free to distribute that information in whatever way you feel will help resolve this issue. Thank you, Shawn MSN Hotmail Technical Support - Original Message - Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Hotmail Delivery Problems Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:06:17 +0200 From: Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 5:24 PM -0700 2005-09-20, Lloyd F. Tennison wrote: Has anyone else here had the same problems? It all started when they did a software service upgrade last Wednesday night (They told me they did indeed do a upgrade then.) The FAQ entry at http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showfile=faq03.042.htp is not specifically about hotmail, but is generally applicable to any large-scale mail provider. It is useful to try to gather more information on this problem from other list administrators. However, please keep in mind that, even if you do discover that there is some sort of major problem (either wide-spread, or specific to your site), there may be little or nothing you can do about it. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hotmail Delivery Problems
appreciate knowing. In addition, not listed before I also use SURBL to prevent receiving SPAM. None of the messages that are triggered actually are delivered as they are refused before they reach the server - in the ACL's. Please let me know whatever additional information I may give you to make sure this problem does not happen again. I can forward you data from the two other major ISP's mail service companies on their testing and whitelisting of my server, if you wish (AOL and Yahoo.) I know that you do things differently, but at least that would show my diligence and how long I have been doing this. Thank you for your time, Lloyd Tennison - Original Message - Subject: RE: Mail Delivery Problems from My Server, SRX050915606674 Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:01:43 -0700 From: GEST HM Inbox [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hello Lloyd, Your IP is blocked by MSN Hotmail because the vast majority of all the email that you send to us has been judged to be spam by MSN Hotmail's internal filtering system. One possible explanation for this is the automatic forwarding of unfiltered inbound messages, including spam messages, to MSN/Hotmail addresses. This block lasts for 24 to 48 hours and then is removed. If again the large majority of all the email from the IP is marked as spam it is blocked again, and so on indefinitely. Please confirm that your emails comply with MSN Hotmail's technical standards. This information can be found at: http://advertising.msn.com/adproducts/Email_TechStd.asp. It will also be helpful to send example emails directly to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that we can examine the types of emails that you send. This will help us in our investigation.When you do this please send us the subject lines of emails you have sent. Please make sure that these emails are as functionally similar to the types of emails that originate from your system, as any deviation from this may hinder our ability to investigate your problem. We have performed a manual unblocking of your IP for this purpose. Please note that our filters are automated, and they will reinstitute an IP block if they see similar activity in the future. For information on common delivery questions please refer to the Hotmail Postmaster Site found at: http://postmaster.msn.com/.MSN Hotmail has also created the Smart Network Data Services program.This is a service that helps legitimate email senders work with their customers and partners to reduce spam originating from their IP. http://postmaster.msn.com/snds/. Additionally you may want to investigate the Microsoft Sender ID program. http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/safety/technologies/senderid/default.msp x. While neither the SNDS nor Sender ID will enable emails from you domain to bypass our filtering system they will help in the fight against spam. Additionally you should consider evaluating the Bonded Sender program. Bonded Sender (www.bondedsender.com) is the only White Listing service to which we subscribe. The only other way to ensure that your customers will receive your mail in their Inboxes would be to request that they each add your domain to their Safe List within their Hotmail mailboxes. Though this seems to be cumbersome, several other mail senders have been able to do with without too much trouble by putting the steps into the mail they send (usually at the very top or very bottom) or putting the announcement on their web site. Attached is a .doc with screenshots and instructions showing how this may be done. Please feel free to distribute that information in whatever way you feel will help resolve this issue. Thank you, Shawn MSN Hotmail Technical Support - Original Message - Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Hotmail Delivery Problems Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:06:17 +0200 From: Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 5:24 PM -0700 2005-09-20, Lloyd F. Tennison wrote: Has anyone else here had the same problems? It all started when they did a software service upgrade last Wednesday night (They told me they did indeed do a upgrade then.) The FAQ entry at http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showfile=faq03.042.htp is not specifically about hotmail, but is generally applicable to any large-scale mail provider. It is useful to try to gather more information on this problem from other list administrators. However, please keep in mind that, even if you do discover that there is some sort of major problem (either wide-spread, or specific to your site), there may be little or nothing you can do about it. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hotmail Delivery Problems
At 12:41 AM -0700 2005-09-21, Lloyd F. Tennison wrote: Here is the text of the emails. They are pushing the BondedSender like crazy - especially since I received an email direct from BondedSender. at the address I only used with this ticket to hotmail. An awful lot of passing the buck and saying the same thing over and over again. You can certainly try their SNDS system, and try to follow whatever guidelines they have at their postmaster website. As far as that goes, it doesn't sound significantly different from what AOL does. However, at some point it sounds to me like you will probably need to decide how much you want your e-mail to get through their filters. If you want it badly enough, then you will probably pay to use their bonded sender program. Otherwise, you may be forced to eliminate all hotmail users from your lists, or at least live with the fact that most mail from you to hotmail is going to be blocked or dropped. Good luck! If you find out anything that you think may be of interest to the broader mail list admin community, please let us know. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See http://www.sage.org/ for more info. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hotmail Delivery Problems
On Wed, 21 Sep 2005, Lloyd F. Tennison wrote: Here is the text of the emails. They are pushing the BondedSender like crazy - especially since I received an email direct from BondedSender. at the address I only used with this ticket to hotmail. I would turn the problem around. Tell the hotmail users that hotmail is blocking their list mail, and they should contact hotmail and tell them to stop blocking their legit mail. Or, if it's not a business list, tell hotmail users they need to use a different address and move on. Send them all a gmail invite while you're at it. == Chris Candreva -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- (914) 967-7816 WestNet Internet Services of Westchester http://www.westnet.com/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hotmail Delivery Problems
Christopher X. Candreva wrote: On Wed, 21 Sep 2005, Lloyd F. Tennison wrote: Here is the text of the emails. They are pushing the BondedSender like crazy - especially since I received an email direct from BondedSender. at the address I only used with this ticket to hotmail. I would turn the problem around. Tell the hotmail users that hotmail is blocking their list mail, and they should contact hotmail and tell them to stop blocking their legit mail. Or, if it's not a business list, tell hotmail users they need to use a different address and move on. Send them all a gmail invite while you're at it. That's what I recommend too. Your list subscribers are not getting their list email because Hotmail is being unreasonable. Instead of expecting you to jump thru hoops for Hotmail, it's perfectly reasonable for you to put the shoe on the other foot and tell them to use a different email provider that has more reasonable policies. When Hotmail finds that they are losing users by droves they will stop expecting all legitimate senders to jump thru these unreasonable hoops. The 'Net treats censorship as damage and routes around it. (John Gilmore) In this case, the censorship is a side effect of Hotmail's Bonded Sender program being badly implemented (saying that your mail server can only speak to their mail server if it participates in Bonded Sender) and rejecting legitimate email. Route around it by assisting your Hotmail users in getting another email account. jc -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Hotmail Delivery Problems
Since I do webhosting the SNDS system uses SPF, and SPF does not work if you do mail forwarding. Mail gets denied and end up stuck in my mail queue. The only way is to repackage the email (per SPF website) but then if I forward a repackaged piece of SPAM, it looks now like it came from me. and I get blamed! That's why SPF cannot work in this design - or it seems in any webhosting scenario. Date sent: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:04:38 +0200 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] Copies to: mailman-users@python.org Subject:Re: [Mailman-Users] Hotmail Delivery Problems At 12:41 AM -0700 2005-09-21, Lloyd F. Tennison wrote: Here is the text of the emails. They are pushing the BondedSender like crazy - especially since I received an email direct from BondedSender. at the address I only used with this ticket to hotmail. An awful lot of passing the buck and saying the same thing over and over again. You can certainly try their SNDS system, and try to follow whatever guidelines they have at their postmaster website. As far as that goes, it doesn't sound significantly different from what AOL does. However, at some point it sounds to me like you will probably need to decide how much you want your e-mail to get through their filters. If you want it badly enough, then you will probably pay to use their bonded sender program. Otherwise, you may be forced to eliminate all hotmail users from your lists, or at least live with the fact that most mail from you to hotmail is going to be blocked or dropped. Good luck! If you find out anything that you think may be of interest to the broader mail list admin community, please let us know. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 SAGE member since 1995. See http://www.sage.org/ for more info. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/lists%40viplist.us Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
