Re: [Mailman-Users] Is There a list member limitation?

2010-01-15 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull
Goodman, William writes:

 > We have a very busy mail server so I set it to 4 hours, when I used the 
 > default we had a mailq of over 200 everyday which slowed our
 > performance.
 > So it will keep trying to send it for 4 hours then it gets bounced.

Sure, but the main point is that the user can't find it in his/her
mailbox because that mailbox is "unavailable".

 > > to=, relay=mail.somewhere.com[212.137.44.179]:25,
 > > delay=8.3, delays=0.02/4.4/0.67/3.3, dsn=4.0.0, status=deferred (host
 > > mail.somewhere.com[212.137.44.179] said: 451 ...
 > > Requested mail action not taken: mailbox unavailable (in reply to RCPT
 > > TO command)) Jan 13 15:25:00 my-mailserver postfix/smtp[28262]:
 > > B405E2D858F

This looks like greylisting to me.  (Maybe broken; state of the art
greylisters tell you how long to wait before resending.)

Another possibility, especially if "somewhere" == aol or hotmail, is a
tarpit.  They think you may be spamming their members, and they're
forcing you to slow down.

I'll give you one scenario you might think about that connects a
couple of the symptoms you report.

1.  Some corresponding hosts have decided you might be a spammer, and
are rate limiting you by temporarily failing delivery to any mailbox.

2.  The queue built up not because of load on your server, but because
those hosts will only let you send to one address every 10 minutes
or something like that.

3.  When you cut the retry period to 4 hours, you simply arranged to
bounce mail that would eventually have succeeded in due time, but
you *must* pay that "due time" to succeed at those destinations.

If it's indeed one or more of the big services, they usually have an
AUP for lists.  You can register with them, provide bona fides (such
DKIM headers in your outgoing posts), and magically things will start
flowing well.  For smaller hosts, you might just negotiate directly
with the postmaster.

Another possibility is that you might want to just accept the
slowdown, but to reduce resources used by your host, instead of doing
the first retry very soon, you could wait several hours.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Is There a list member limitation?

2010-01-15 Thread Goodman, William
We have a very busy mail server so I set it to 4 hours, when I used the 
default we had a mailq of over 200 everyday which slowed our
performance.
So it will keep trying to send it for 4 hours then it gets bounced.

-Original Message-
From: Larry Stone [mailto:lston...@stonejongleux.com] 
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 4:17 PM
To: Goodman, William
Cc: mailman-users@python.org
Subject: RE: [Mailman-Users] Is There a list member limitation?

On Fri, 15 Jan 2010, Goodman, William wrote:

> I see things like below to users I know didn't receive the email. So
you
> first assessment is correct
> "they did receive it but they just can't find it.

Uh no, the message below is a deferral. Postfix keeps retrying until it 
times out at which point is bounced. How long until it times out is a
site 
configurable length of time (default five days, I think).

> to=, relay=mail.somewhere.com[212.137.44.179]:25,
> delay=8.3, delays=0.02/4.4/0.67/3.3, dsn=4.0.0, status=deferred (host
> mail.somewhere.com[212.137.44.179] said: 451 ...
> Requested mail action not taken: mailbox unavailable (in reply to RCPT
> TO command)) Jan 13 15:25:00 my-mailserver postfix/smtp[28262]:
> B405E2D858F

-- Larry Stone
lston...@stonejongleux.com
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Is There a list member limitation?

2010-01-15 Thread Larry Stone

On Fri, 15 Jan 2010, Goodman, William wrote:


I see things like below to users I know didn't receive the email. So you
first assessment is correct
"they did receive it but they just can't find it.


Uh no, the message below is a deferral. Postfix keeps retrying until it 
times out at which point is bounced. How long until it times out is a site 
configurable length of time (default five days, I think).



to=, relay=mail.somewhere.com[212.137.44.179]:25,
delay=8.3, delays=0.02/4.4/0.67/3.3, dsn=4.0.0, status=deferred (host
mail.somewhere.com[212.137.44.179] said: 451 ...
Requested mail action not taken: mailbox unavailable (in reply to RCPT
TO command)) Jan 13 15:25:00 my-mailserver postfix/smtp[28262]:
B405E2D858F


-- Larry Stone
   lston...@stonejongleux.com
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Is There a list member limitation?

2010-01-15 Thread Goodman, William
I see things like below to users I know didn't receive the email. So you
first assessment is correct
"they did receive it but they just can't find it.

to=, relay=mail.somewhere.com[212.137.44.179]:25,
delay=8.3, delays=0.02/4.4/0.67/3.3, dsn=4.0.0, status=deferred (host
mail.somewhere.com[212.137.44.179] said: 451 ...
Requested mail action not taken: mailbox unavailable (in reply to RCPT
TO command)) Jan 13 15:25:00 my-mailserver postfix/smtp[28262]:
B405E2D858F

Thanks for all your help...

Bill

-Original Message-
From: mailman-users-bounces+wgoodman=jcvi@python.org
[mailto:mailman-users-bounces+wgoodman=jcvi@python.org] On Behalf Of
Larry Stone
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 1:28 PM
To: mailman-users@python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Is There a list member limitation?

On Fri, 15 Jan 2010, Goodman, William wrote:

> Interesting...
>
> I also manage the mail servers, we use postfix with Amavid, ClamAV and
> Spamassassian. I know
> this is a mailman list but, is that (SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 500) a postfix
> mail server configuration?

Since you're also managing the mail servers, you should be able to look
in 
the postfix logs to see what's happening.

-- Larry Stone
lston...@stonejongleux.com
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Is There a list member limitation?

2010-01-15 Thread Larry Stone

On Fri, 15 Jan 2010, Goodman, William wrote:


Interesting...

I also manage the mail servers, we use postfix with Amavid, ClamAV and
Spamassassian. I know
this is a mailman list but, is that (SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 500) a postfix
mail server configuration?


Since you're also managing the mail servers, you should be able to look in 
the postfix logs to see what's happening.


-- Larry Stone
   lston...@stonejongleux.com
--
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Is There a list member limitation?

2010-01-15 Thread Mark Sapiro
Goodman, William wrote:
>
>I also manage the mail servers, we use postfix with Amavid, ClamAV and
>Spamassassian. I know
>this is a mailman list but, is that (SMTP_MAX_RCPTS =  500) a postfix
>mail server configuration?


It is a Mailman configuration setting which may or may not mean
anything depending on other Mailman site and list configuration
settings such as VERP and personalization.

It is in no way a limit on what can be sent from a list. It only limits
the maximum number of RCPT TO addresses in a single SMTP transaction
between Mailman and the outgoing MTA. It is the other side of
Postfix's smtpd_recipient_limit. Mailman's SMTP_MAX_RCPTS should
always be less than postfix's smtpd_recipient_limit or there may be
unnecessary Postfix refusals and Mailman retries, but otherwise, these
things in no way limit the number of total recipients to a message.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Is There a list member limitation?

2010-01-15 Thread Goodman, William
Interesting...

I also manage the mail servers, we use postfix with Amavid, ClamAV and
Spamassassian. I know
this is a mailman list but, is that (SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 500) a postfix
mail server configuration?

Bill

-Original Message-
From: mailman-users-bounces+wgoodman=jcvi@python.org
[mailto:mailman-users-bounces+wgoodman=jcvi@python.org] On Behalf Of
Mark Sapiro
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 12:27 PM
To: mailman-users@python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Is There a list member limitation?

LuKreme wrote:

>On 15-Jan-2010, at 09:24, Goodman, William wrote:
>> I had a user send an email to one of our lists (approx. 700 email
>> address), he states that some users received them about (450) and
other did not. Is there a email address limitation or member limitation?

>
>
>Not in Mailman.
>
>There are many reasons that a mail may not be received by some members
of a list.
>
>1) Spam filters on their machines that trap the mail as spam
>2) limitations on your sending server on how many emails you can send
to how many people in what amount of time
>3) Your server is on an RBL
>4) THEIR server is on an RBL
>5) They DID receive the mail, they just can't find it
>6) DNS issues (yours or theirs)
>
>There are probably other things.


In addition to the above, check Mailman's smtp-failure log if you can.

The 450 number (and exactly how can he know that?) suggests that
possibly list delivery was chunked with the default SMTP_MAX_RCPTS =
500 and only one chunk was accepted by the MTA.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Is There a list member limitation?

2010-01-15 Thread Mark Sapiro
LuKreme wrote:

>On 15-Jan-2010, at 09:24, Goodman, William wrote:
>> I had a user send an email to one of our lists (approx. 700 email
>> address), he states that some users received them about (450) and other did 
>> not. Is there a email address limitation or member limitation? 
>
>
>Not in Mailman.
>
>There are many reasons that a mail may not be received by some members of a 
>list.
>
>1) Spam filters on their machines that trap the mail as spam
>2) limitations on your sending server on how many emails you can send to how 
>many people in what amount of time
>3) Your server is on an RBL
>4) THEIR server is on an RBL
>5) They DID receive the mail, they just can't find it
>6) DNS issues (yours or theirs)
>
>There are probably other things.


In addition to the above, check Mailman's smtp-failure log if you can.

The 450 number (and exactly how can he know that?) suggests that
possibly list delivery was chunked with the default SMTP_MAX_RCPTS =
500 and only one chunk was accepted by the MTA.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

--
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Is There a list member limitation?

2010-01-15 Thread Goodman, William
Thanks, That's what I thought you just confirmed it.

Bill

-Original Message-
From: mailman-users-bounces+wgoodman=jcvi@python.org
[mailto:mailman-users-bounces+wgoodman=jcvi@python.org] On Behalf Of
LuKreme
Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 12:08 PM
To: mailman-users@python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Is There a list member limitation?

On 15-Jan-2010, at 09:24, Goodman, William wrote:
> I had a user send an email to one of our lists (approx. 700 email
> address), he states that some users received them about (450) and
other did not. Is there a email address limitation or member limitation?



Not in Mailman.

There are many reasons that a mail may not be received by some members
of a list.

1) Spam filters on their machines that trap the mail as spam
2) limitations on your sending server on how many emails you can send to
how many people in what amount of time
3) Your server is on an RBL
4) THEIR server is on an RBL
5) They DID receive the mail, they just can't find it
6) DNS issues (yours or theirs)

There are probably other things.

-- 
Gods don't like people not doing much work. People who aren't busy all
the time might start to think. --Small Gods

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Is There a list member limitation?

2010-01-15 Thread LuKreme
On 15-Jan-2010, at 09:24, Goodman, William wrote:
> I had a user send an email to one of our lists (approx. 700 email
> address), he states that some users received them about (450) and other did 
> not. Is there a email address limitation or member limitation? 


Not in Mailman.

There are many reasons that a mail may not be received by some members of a 
list.

1) Spam filters on their machines that trap the mail as spam
2) limitations on your sending server on how many emails you can send to how 
many people in what amount of time
3) Your server is on an RBL
4) THEIR server is on an RBL
5) They DID receive the mail, they just can't find it
6) DNS issues (yours or theirs)

There are probably other things.

-- 
Gods don't like people not doing much work. People who aren't busy all the time 
might start to think. --Small Gods

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