Re: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman, some misc questions/comments

[Robert Heller]

At Fri, 15 Apr 2016 15:12:07 -0400 "Sean McBride"  
wrote:

> 
> Hi again,
> 
> Another comment and question if I may:
> 
> 1) The mailman-install.pdf has text like this:
> 
> 
> Add this to the bottom of the `$prefix/Mailman/mm cfg.py' file:
>   MTA = `Postfix'
> 
> 
> It would be nice to be able to copy-paste that exactly, but alas the pdf use
> smart quotes, which is of course not what Python wants.

There really should be a *plain text* INSTALL (and/or README) file for just 
this purpose.  The mailman 2.1.16 RPM I built for EL5 includes a 
INSTALL.REDHAT in /usr/share/doc/mailman-2.1.16/ as well as several README's 
and a FAQ file.  There is also a mailman-admin.txt file in 
/usr/share/doc/mailman-2.1.16/admin/doc/ and a mailman-install.txt file in 
/usr/share/doc/mailman-2.1.16/admin/doc/.  I expect that the *plain text* 
files have plain old ASCII quotes.

I don't know if newer versions of Mailman include these 'text' files or not.  
I expect that they do.

> 
> 
> 2) Does postfix need to be on the same host as Mailman?
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 

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Re: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman, some misc questions/comments

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/15/2016 12:12 PM, Sean McBride wrote:
> Hi again,
> 
> Another comment and question if I may:
> 
> 1) The mailman-install.pdf has text like this:
> 
> 
> Add this to the bottom of the ‘$prefix/Mailman/mm cfg.py’ file:
>   MTA = ’Postfix’
> 
> 
> It would be nice to be able to copy-paste that exactly, but alas the pdf use 
> smart quotes, which is of course not what Python wants.


This is a function of the software (pdflatex) that creates the pdf from
the Tex input file. The actual source is

  \begin{verbatim}
MTA = 'Postfix'
  \end{verbatim}

with apostrophes. Both the mailman-install.txt file in the tarball and
the HTML in the tarball and online at, e.g.
 have
ascii apostrophes


> 2) Does postfix need to be on the same host as Mailman?


Not necessarily. The outgoing MTA is specified by the
Defaults.py/mm_cfg.py settings SMTPHOST and SMTPPORT and can be
anywhere. There are patches available, e.g.,
 to enable Mailman to do
authentication if required.

The incoming MTA is more problematic. It needs to put the incoming mail
somewhere where a process on the Mailman host (e.g., fetchmail) can
retrieve it and deliver to Mailman. See .

IMO, a better solution if possible, i.e., if you can control the 'main'
MTA, is to run an MTA on the Mailman host whose sole job is to deliver
to Mailman the list mail relayed from the 'main' MTA and to relay
outgoing mail back.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman, some misc questions/comments

[Sean McBride]

Hi again,

Another comment and question if I may:

1) The mailman-install.pdf has text like this:


Add this to the bottom of the ‘$prefix/Mailman/mm cfg.py’ file:
  MTA = ’Postfix’


It would be nice to be able to copy-paste that exactly, but alas the pdf use 
smart quotes, which is of course not what Python wants.


2) Does postfix need to be on the same host as Mailman?


Thanks,

-- 

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Rogue Researchwww.rogue-research.com 
Mac Software Developer  Montréal, Québec, Canada
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Re: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman, some misc questions/comments

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Sean McBride writes:

 > I'm not aware of the problems you refer to.  "launchctl load -w"
 > works fine in my experience, though the details of exactly how it
 > works have changed between releases.  Like the man page says: "In
 > previous versions, this option would modify the configuration
 > file. Now the state of the Disabled key is stored elsewhere
 > on-disk..."  Perhaps that's what you're talking about?

Well, "load" is described in a section labeled "Legacy Subcommands",
which begins with dark hints about unimplemented commands.  It does
work for me, but what I read in a thread on the Apple site was that
Apple doesn't promise to ensure that the legacy commands will continue
to work.  On the other hand, the recipe given there involving
bootstrap, enable, and kickstart, did what I expected only erratically.

As long as load still works I'm happy.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman, some misc questions/comments

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/14/2016 02:53 PM, Sean McBride wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:16:33 -0700, Mark Sapiro said:
> 
>> You also need to register as a user and let us know your registered user
>> name.
> 
> Yes, sorry, I read too fast.  Done that too now. :)


And you now should have permission.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman, some misc questions/comments

[Sean McBride]

On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:16:33 -0700, Mark Sapiro said:

>I've done that now in the online versions (refresh the page if it isn't
>the 'April 14' version. The update will be in the tarball of the next
>(2.1.22) release.

Nice!

>That section has a highlighted note at the top saying: "Much of the
>following is no longer applicable to more recent versions of MacOSX. See
>the FAQ at http://wiki.list.org/x/O4A9 for links to more recent
>information." I think that's sufficient.

Up to you of course, but everything after that useful first sentence is so 
incredibly out of date that there's really no point having it there. :)  All 
the OS X versions mentioned there have had no security updates in years, so 
running something like mailman on them would be insanity, and should be 
discouraged IMHO. :)

But let me write my currently vapourwave newer notes and you can decide then if 
you want to paste it in...

>You also need to register as a user and let us know your registered user
>name.

Yes, sorry, I read too fast.  Done that too now. :)

Cheers,

-- 

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Rogue Researchwww.rogue-research.com 
Mac Software Developer  Montréal, Québec, Canada


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Re: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman, some misc questions/comments

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/14/2016 12:57 PM, Sean McBride wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:07:29 -0700, Mark Sapiro said:
> 
>>> - the docs say "Mailman should work pretty much out of the box with a
>> standard Postfix installation. It has been tested with various Postfix
>> versions up to and including Postfix 2.1.5."  I'm assuming that version
>> number is just out-of-date?  Does mailman work with modern postfix?
>>
>>
>> Yes. I will update the installation manual.


I've done that now in the online versions (refresh the page if it isn't
the 'April 14' version. The update will be in the tarball of the next
(2.1.22) release.


> Thanks!
> 
>> I am guessing the Mac OS X docs you refer to are the wiki page at
>> .
> 
> Yes, and also section 15.3 of mailman-install.pdf.


That section has a highlighted note at the top saying: "Much of the
following is no longer applicable to more recent versions of MacOSX. See
the FAQ at http://wiki.list.org/x/O4A9 for links to more recent
information." I think that's sufficient.


>> If so, you can update that yourself.
>> See the first paragraph at  to obtain
>> write access to the wiki.
> 
> email sent, thanks.


You also need to register as a user and let us know your registered user
name.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman, some misc questions/comments

[Steve Burling]

On 14 Apr 2016, at 12:03, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:


If you're working with Mailman 2, dubious.  There may never be another
release of Mailman 2 (but Mark is authoritative).  And Mac OS X has
been somewhat unkind to us (Apple's Mailman has been a long-term
source of support requests to which we mostly have to reply "uuuhhh
... install from source and we'll get back to you, Apple's Mailman is
*weird*".


You know, I've heard this for years, but some time ago (a long time ago, 
now that I think of it :-) I diff'd the Apple-supplied Mailman with the 
appropriate source tarball, and they were essentially identical. I think 
the only thing that was different was the startup script.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman, some misc questions/comments

[Sean McBride]

On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:07:29 -0700, Mark Sapiro said:

>> - the docs say "Mailman should work pretty much out of the box with a
>standard Postfix installation. It has been tested with various Postfix
>versions up to and including Postfix 2.1.5."  I'm assuming that version
>number is just out-of-date?  Does mailman work with modern postfix?
>
>
>Yes. I will update the installation manual.

Thanks!

>I am guessing the Mac OS X docs you refer to are the wiki page at
>.

Yes, and also section 15.3 of mailman-install.pdf.

>If so, you can update that yourself.
>See the first paragraph at  to obtain
>write access to the wiki.

email sent, thanks.

Cheers,

-- 

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Rogue Researchwww.rogue-research.com 
Mac Software Developer  Montréal, Québec, Canada


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Re: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman, some misc questions/comments

[Sean McBride]

On Fri, 15 Apr 2016 01:03:18 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull said:

>If you're working with Mailman 2, dubious.  There may never be another
>release of Mailman 2 (but Mark is authoritative).  And Mac OS X has
>been somewhat unkind to us (Apple's Mailman has been a long-term
>source of support requests to which we mostly have to reply "uuuhhh
>... install from source and we'll get back to you, Apple's Mailman is
>*weird*".

Yes, I've heard.  Of course, Apple hasn't included mailman since OS X 10.6, and 
likely never will again given their dislike of GPL3.

>Mailman 3 docs would be very welcome.

I'm sticking with 2 for now, as I'm familiar with its web UI and it seems 
better documented, more widely used, less bleeding edge, etc. :)

> > - OS X's native equivalent of cron is launchd, would you accept
> >   launchd config files matching those of crontab.in for inclusion?
>
>I don't know if Mark will, but I will definitely ensure they get into
>Mailman 3, or at least are well-documented (Barry makes the decisions
>about code, but docs are always welcome).
>
>Question for you: last I heard, the "launchctl load -w" approach was
>deprecated by Apple, but there was no well-documented replacement.
>Worse, there was no replacement that actually worked in my
>experience. ;-)  Has that situation improved?

I'm not aware of the problems you refer to.  "launchctl load -w" works fine in 
my experience, though the details of exactly how it works have changed between 
releases.  Like the man page says: "In previous versions, this option would 
modify the configuration file. Now the state of the Disabled key is stored 
elsewhere on-disk..."  Perhaps that's what you're talking about?

>Note: Mailman likely has to work on at least Yosemite, possibly
>Mavericks or even Mountain Lion.  Knowing Apple, even if there's a
>working canonical incantation for the most recent El Capitan, likely
>it hasn't been backported. :-(

I'll be doing this on El Capitan.  So far I can say that mailman builds. :)

I guess I'll keep notes, and share them here when done.

Cheers,

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Re: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman, some misc questions/comments

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/14/2016 06:32 AM, Sean McBride wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm setting up mailman for the first time, and have a few questions/comments:
> 
> - the docs say "Mailman should work pretty much out of the box with a 
> standard Postfix installation. It has been tested with various Postfix 
> versions up to and including Postfix 2.1.5."  I'm assuming that version 
> number is just out-of-date?  Does mailman work with modern postfix?


Yes. I will update the installation manual.


> - I'm doing this on OS X, and notice the docs for that OS are all *very* out 
> of date.  Would you accept a patch to update the docs?
> 
> - OS X's native equivalent of cron is launchd, would you accept launchd 
> config files matching those of crontab.in for inclusion?


I am guessing the Mac OS X docs you refer to are the wiki page at
. If so, you can update that yourself.
See the first paragraph at  to obtain
write access to the wiki.

In any case, if there are other places that need updating, let me know.

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