Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Phil Stracchino]

On 4/10/19 7:36 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 4/10/19 12:25 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>> The path forward is to increase the community of MM 3 users which will
>> result in more people contributing to the project and faster progress.
> 
>   On that note, I migrated my half-dozen lists (a few hundred recipients
> in total) to MM3 yesterday.  I'm having a couple of minor issues, for
> which I will request advice as soon as I'm sure of what's happening, but
> overall the results have been positive.

I'm still waiting for Mailman3 to go stable on Gentoo.  There is a 3.1.1
ebuild for both mailman and mailmanclient, but net-mail/mailman-3.1.1 is
still masked.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 4/11/2019 3:22 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:


...  If you want something that's never going to
change, Python 2.7 is as good as anything else.


Some orgs have "cybersecurity" with "vulnerability scanners". You may 
have to spend more time hiding your python version from them, then 
you'll spend hiding/patching the actual issues from Evil Hackers.


Ask me how I know about Apache's "ServerTokens".

Dima
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Carl Zwanzig writes:

 > On 4/10/2019 11:36 AM, Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users wrote:

 > > (That said, given the history of python, my question would be if there
 > > are any plans to port MM2 to golang or maybe gnat.)

Not within the Mailman project.

It seems pointless to me.  If you want something that's never going to
change, Python 2.7 is as good as anything else.  Python 2 will still
be alive in 2030, I'll bet.  The security issues ... if Mailman 2
running on Python 2 in a VM is a security problem for you, Mailman is
the least of your security problems.  #opsec #apt  And I'm sure
somebody (though not the Python project itself) will still be doing
patches and backports, which for most of the security issues I've seen
(I'm NOT an expert yet) seem to be more straightforward backports than
dealing with text (ie, you don't have to worry about charsets and
anything unexpected may be considered hostile and quarantine is the
right thing to do).

 > Or rust, or python3 (which might be the easiest). I'm not
 > sufficiently up on the python differences, but. it can't be
 > -that- difficult.

Yes, it can.  For about 10 years, the most popular kind of bug in
Mailman 2 was a UnicodeError that bubbled up to the top, resulting in
a message shunt at best.  Porting from Python 2 to Python 3 will
almost certainly open that window again.  I suspect the same is true
of porting to any language with the internal string encoding being
Unicode, but I don't have experience with rust or golang.

This wasn't a problem in Mailman 3 because we simply rebuilt
everything from the ground up, and it's much easier to do things right
(ie robust and resilient handling of fuzzbombs from spammers and
Japanese highschool students who write their own MTAs).

 > The main thing is that from appearances MM3 is large
 > enterprise-grade list manager,

So is MM2.  MM3 just tried to make it much easier to "have it your
way" on admin and archiving.  This did not work out as planned.  It
turned out that many of the "volunteers" who wrote Postorius and
HyperKitty were actually working for Red Hat who needed enterprise-
grade features.  On the other hand, most SMEs and social groups trying
Mailman 3 seem fine with the industrial-strength architecture, and
have neither tried to build their own front ends, nor asked that we do
it.

 > but many of us don't need that, we need something for a few (<100?) 
 > lists with a few (<500?) members. I can run that on a small BSD
 > box;

If reducing heavy dependencies is the goal, it shouldn't be that hard
to write a MM2 clone web interface, reusing most of the screens.  So I
don't think a port of the MM2 admin interface to talk REST to MM3 core
would be hard.  And as Mark says, if your users are old enough, they
can use the mail admin interface a la majordomo. :-)  I'm pretty sure
there was some work done on porting Pipermail to MM3 (it would still
run on Python 2 though, but that port shouldn't be terribly hard).

 > Maybe there's a place for a community-driven port of MM2 onto
 > python3.

I don't think that's a good idea.  I'll be happy to kibbitz if
somebody wants to try it -- it's not a *terrible* idea.  But I think
coming up with downsized web admin and archive applications is a
better one.

Steve
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Dave McGuire]

On 4/10/19 12:25 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> The path forward is to increase the community of MM 3 users which will
> result in more people contributing to the project and faster progress.

  On that note, I migrated my half-dozen lists (a few hundred recipients
in total) to MM3 yesterday.  I'm having a couple of minor issues, for
which I will request advice as soon as I'm sure of what's happening, but
overall the results have been positive.

 -Dave

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 4/10/19 2:53 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> What Mailman things need assistance in MM3?  I've avoided jumping in because
> honestly every time I looked it seemed like all the focus was everything but
> the email reflector bits.


There are (at the moment) 509 open issues at
 and 232 of those involve
Mailman core 

There probably aren't a lot of issues bearing directly on message
acceptance and delivery, but there are missing 2.1 features. I
previously mentioned regular_exclude_lists and invitations (see
 for the latter).

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 4/10/19 12:08 PM, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> 
> Maybe there's a place for a community-driven port of MM2 onto python3. I
> am not volunteering, too many other projects currently.


I think a much more productive use of the community's resources would be
implementation of a light weight, non-Django web UI to be a layer
between users and Mailman core, perhaps using mailman-client.

Postorius and HyperKitty were never intended to be the only web UIs.
They are examples. Of course, we knew that if people were actually going
to adopt Mailman 3, we needed a web UI, so Postorius and HyperKitty are
there, but they certainly don't preclude other approaches.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 4/10/19 12:08 PM, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> 
> The main thing is that from appearances MM3 is large enterprise-grade
> list manager, but many of us don't need that, we need something for a
> few (<100?) lists with a few (<500?) members. I can run that on a small
> BSD box; spinning up django, sass, (docker?), and whatever else is
> overkill for the purpose and adds to the maintenance load. Heck, with
> MM2 I'd dump apache for a simpler server if it wasn't already set up.


Actually, it is possible to run Mailman 3 core without HyperKitty,
Postorius, Django, et al. Management without the web UI is cumbersome,
but doable for admins at least, and users can join and leave via email
(remember Majordomo?).

Also, coincidentally,

was just posted and may be interesting.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

On Wed, 2019-04-10 at 09:25 -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> The path forward is to increase the community of MM 3 users which will
> result in more people contributing to the project and faster progress.

What Mailman things need assistance in MM3?  I've avoided jumping in because
honestly every time I looked it seemed like all the focus was everything but
the email reflector bits.

-Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 4/10/19 2:08 PM, Carl Zwanzig wrote:

> Or rust, or python3 (which might be the easiest). I'm not sufficiently
> up on the python differences, but. it can't be -that- difficult.
> (and aren't there tools to assist? some code claims to be both v2 and v3
> compatible) (gnat? that's really ada, isn't it?)

Python 3.4 is not compatible with python 3.6 is not compatible with
python 3.7 -- there is not guarantee you won't have to do the same dance
again and again every couple of years. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Ada (yes) and Go's the stated goal is to be long-term stable. Something
that basically isn't broken, like MM2, wouldn't need to be fixed
"because 2020".

> Maybe there's a place for a community-driven port of MM2 onto python3. I
> am not volunteering, too many other projects currently.

MM probably deals with strings a lot, and strings is exactly what they
felt they needed to do differently in python 3... I'm sure there's other
monsters there too.

I suspect the practical answer may be as simple as replacing
/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman with
"""
cat - | docker exec MM2_CONTAINTER /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman "$@" -
"""
and maybe when I get a round tuit for upgrading our mail server I'll
give that a try...
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Matthew Goebel]

I'm more worried another DMARC style debacle myself, more than a Python
security issue, although that could be an issue.

Thanks,
Matt


On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 3:29 PM Sean McBride 
wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 13:36:59 -0500, Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users said:
>
> >On 4/10/19 12:49 PM, Sean McBride wrote:
> >> On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 12:38:34 -0500, Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users
> said:
> >>
> >>> How much support for python 2 have you been getting until now, and why
> >>> do you believe you will need it in the future?
> >>
> >> Fixes to security vulnerabilities basically.  If/when some new one is
> >found after 2020, you're screwed.
> >
> >Screwed how, exactly?
>
> In the way you described (below).
>
> >With a properly sandboxed application your security vulnerability has to
> >be a) exploitable through that application and b) able to break out of
> >the sandbox and wreak havoc to your host system.
> >
> >It's all perfectly possible in theory but really, do a basic risk
> >analysis before jumping on the knee-jerk security bandwagon.
>
> Agreed. But should it happen, there'll be no patches to python2
> forthcoming.
>
> Sean
>
>
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Alain D D Williams]

On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 11:36:24AM -0400, Matthew Goebel wrote:

> Now that all support for Python 2 is supposed to go away in 2020 are people
> going to move off of mailman 2?

Most of my mailman lists are run off a CentOS 6 box, have done for a long time,
quite stable.

CentOS 8 will (is expected to) be out later this year; when that happens I will
upgrade the whole machine - before CentOS 6 EOLs.

CentOS 8 will have the version of Python need to support MM3, so I will upgrade
and copy over my lists at that point. I am expecting that there will be a few
issues (there always are) but will give me some new abilities; based on quick
browsing of the MM3 docs I will be able to keep rosta information in an SQL
database rather than a Python pickle; this will let me do interesting things
like easy interface with other subsystems.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Sean McBride]

On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 13:36:59 -0500, Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users said:

>On 4/10/19 12:49 PM, Sean McBride wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 12:38:34 -0500, Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users said:
>> 
>>> How much support for python 2 have you been getting until now, and why
>>> do you believe you will need it in the future?
>> 
>> Fixes to security vulnerabilities basically.  If/when some new one is
>found after 2020, you're screwed.
>
>Screwed how, exactly?

In the way you described (below).

>With a properly sandboxed application your security vulnerability has to
>be a) exploitable through that application and b) able to break out of
>the sandbox and wreak havoc to your host system.
>
>It's all perfectly possible in theory but really, do a basic risk
>analysis before jumping on the knee-jerk security bandwagon.

Agreed. But should it happen, there'll be no patches to python2 forthcoming.

Sean


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Carl Zwanzig]

On 4/10/2019 11:36 AM, Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users wrote:

With a properly sandboxed application your security vulnerability has to
be a) exploitable through that application and b) able to break out of
the sandbox and wreak havoc to your host system.


Exactly.


(That said, given the history of python, my question would be if there
are any plans to port MM2 to golang or maybe gnat.)


Or rust, or python3 (which might be the easiest). I'm not sufficiently up on 
the python differences, but. it can't be -that- difficult. (and 
aren't there tools to assist? some code claims to be both v2 and v3 
compatible) (gnat? that's really ada, isn't it?)



The main thing is that from appearances MM3 is large enterprise-grade list 
manager, but many of us don't need that, we need something for a few (<100?) 
lists with a few (<500?) members. I can run that on a small BSD box; 
spinning up django, sass, (docker?), and whatever else is overkill for the 
purpose and adds to the maintenance load. Heck, with MM2 I'd dump apache for 
a simpler server if it wasn't already set up.



Maybe there's a place for a community-driven port of MM2 onto python3. I am 
not volunteering, too many other projects currently.


Later,

z!
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 4/10/19 12:49 PM, Sean McBride wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 12:38:34 -0500, Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users said:
> 
>> How much support for python 2 have you been getting until now, and why
>> do you believe you will need it in the future?
> 
> Fixes to security vulnerabilities basically.  If/when some new one is found 
> after 2020, you're screwed.

Screwed how, exactly?

With a properly sandboxed application your security vulnerability has to
be a) exploitable through that application and b) able to break out of
the sandbox and wreak havoc to your host system.

It's all perfectly possible in theory but really, do a basic risk
analysis before jumping on the knee-jerk security bandwagon.

(That said, given the history of python, my question would be if there
are any plans to port MM2 to golang or maybe gnat.)
-- 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Sean McBride]

On Wed, 10 Apr 2019 12:38:34 -0500, Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users said:

>>   Now that all support for Python 2 is supposed to go away in 2020 are
>> people going to move off of mailman 2?
>
>How much support for python 2 have you been getting until now, and why
>do you believe you will need it in the future?

Fixes to security vulnerabilities basically.  If/when some new one is found 
after 2020, you're screwed.

Sean


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users]

On 4/10/19 10:36 AM, Matthew Goebel wrote:
> Hey,
> 
>   Now that all support for Python 2 is supposed to go away in 2020 are
> people going to move off of mailman 2?

How much support for python 2 have you been getting until now, and why
do you believe you will need it in the future?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 4/10/19 8:46 AM, Carl Zwanzig wrote:
> 
> I'll probably continue with MM2 until either it's ported
> to python3 or I stop running these lists.


The GNU Mailman project will never port Mailman 2.1 to Python 3.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 4/10/19 8:36 AM, Matthew Goebel wrote:
> 
>   Now that all support for Python 2 is supposed to go away in 2020 are
> people going to move
> off of mailman 2?  I've been looking at mailman 3 and finding it hard to
> grok after using
> mailman 2 for many years.  I haven't seen a discussion about this so I
> thought I would
> check and see if people were willing to share their thoughts.


Coincidentally, I was asked off list just yesterday

> Could you share
> how long in months/years can we expect to continue to have Mailman 2.x
>  patches/updates without having to move up to version 3.x?

My answer was:
--
Official Mailman 2.1 support should have been abandoned before now, but
I am compulsive about a lot of things, and it is difficult for me to
ignore bug reports.

Consider that Mailman 2.1 is implemented in Python 2 and see
.

I can't answer your question with an actual time frame.

1) I could get hit by a bus tomorrow.
2) I'm 77 years old and in good health, but I won't live forever.
3) Something in between.

Of course, as long as you are running on a platform that supports Python
2.7, you can continue to use Mailman 2.1, and if it works today, it will
probably still work tomorrow.

But some time this year, I will release Mailman 2.1.30 and that may well
be the last official release.

On the other hand, my work on Mailman 2.1 is in large part driven by the
community, so we'll have to see.
--

Some of the @python.org lists (not this one yet) have been migrated to
Mailman 3 and new lists are Mailman 3. There are already 73 Mailman 3
lists @python.org (there are still 313 MM 2.1 lists).

Some of my bicycling club's lists have been migrated and there is one
that was MM 3 from the start, but there are two that are still MM 2.1
because of ancillary processes that are blocking the migration.

Also, there are MM 2.1 features not yet supported in MM 3. I miss
regular_exclude_lists and the ability to 'invite' members. There are
also settings that are in MM 3 core, but not yet exposed in Postorius
which makes some things difficult for list admins who don't have shell
access to the server.

These things will come, but we are a small team and most of us have a
$dayjob. We welcome help. Check out our trackers at
, and if you can submit merge requests, that
would be great.

The path forward is to increase the community of MM 3 users which will
result in more people contributing to the project and faster progress.

Of course, I'm in a unique position as both a MM 3 developer and
essentially the last person supporting the official MM 2.1 branch, so it
would be interesting to get other people's views on this.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Now that Python 2 is dead in 2020 what are people's plans with mailman2?

[Carl Zwanzig]

On 4/10/2019 8:36 AM, Matthew Goebel wrote:

   Now that all support for Python 2 is supposed to go away in 2020 are
people going to move
off of mailman 2?  I've been looking at mailman 3 and finding it hard to
grok after using
mailman 2 for many years.  I haven't seen a discussion about this so I
thought I would
check and see if people were willing to share their thoughts.


Well... for the few and small lists I run, MM3 is a sledgehammer driving 
carpet tacks. I'll probably continue with MM2 until either it's ported to 
python3 or I stop running these lists. (Then, I also drive a 18 year old car 
because it still works.)


Later,

z!
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