Re: [MlMt] Local email archiving status/options?

[Michael Tsai]

On Aug 27, 2015, at 3:03 PM, Muster Hans  wrote:

> I tried both the EF bundle method and dragging to the Finder.  The EF bundle
> method was painfully slow, though that was not helped by EagleFiler generating
> a notification for every single message.  I tried turning that off in
> System Preferences / Notifications but they still kept on coming.  I've just
> discovered an Esoteric Preference for that, but the documentation doesn't seem
> to match the behaviour I saw.

The MailMate bundle is probably always going to be slower than drag-and-drop 
because it compiles and runs a separate AppleScript command for each message. 
This is also why you get a notification per message rather than one for the 
batch.

You can adjust in System Preferences how notifications are displayed, but not 
whether they are posted or recorded. It may be that the system kept displaying 
notifications after you had turned it off because it was still processing old 
notifications. To stop the notifications entirely, you would need to use the 
DisableNotificationCenter esoteric preference:



If you have further questions about this, please feel free to contact me at 
.

> In contrast, 3,800 messages went into EF via dragging in about 6 minutes.

It's taking 6 minutes because there are so many separate files. If you import 
from Apple Mail, EagleFiler would generate a mbox file and do the import in 30 
seconds or so. My guess is that the new MailMate Export bundle would work 
similarly.

> However, I ran into a real show stopper for me - EF doesn't support UTF-8.
> 
> From "DefaultMessageEncoding" at
> http://c-command.com/eaglefiler/manual#esoteric-preferences
> 
> "When a message doesn’t specify which text encoding it uses, EagleFiler has
> to guess. An incorrect guess may cause the message to display using strange
> accents or garbage characters. By default EagleFiler guesses MacRoman, but
> you can change it to guess ISO Latin 1 instead."

EagleFiler does support UTF-8. For example, the message that you just sent 
declares itself as:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

and the Unicode characters at the end display properly in EagleFiler (as does 
"Grüsse").

The DefaultMessageEncoding esoteric preference only applies when the message 
(improperly) uses non-ASCII characters without specifying what encoding they 
are in.  I don't think I've ever seen a message that did this using UTF-8. 
Generally, it is older mail clients that would, e.g., send the message as 
MacRoman with no explicit encoding, so that it would only display properly if 
the client knew to assume that it was in MacRoman. This was back when apps 
didn't support Unicode, so it shouldn't be an issue with modern mail clients. 
However, if you do come across a message that is using UTF-8 without specifying 
it, you could set the esoteric preference accordingly:



> I have a load of mails in German where each and every accented character
> gets mangled by EF. E.g. "Freundliche Grüsse" (~=Regards) displays in EF as
> "Freundliche Gr=FCsse", and it's a similar disaster with other accented
> characters.

Please send one of the problem .eml files to  so that 
I can look into this.

--Michael

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Re: [MlMt] Local email archiving status/options?

[Muster Hans]

On 26 Aug 2015, at 1:33, Brian Scholl wrote:

Clearly there are plenty of workarounds to try for local-only 
archiving, so
I'll make something work.  I'm still hesitant to try any of the local 
IMAP
server options (and I have great server-side SPAM handling already 
through

my university), but it sounds to me like my best bet for creating a
long-term-storage archive might just be to export .eml files directly 
from
MM (via the EF bundle, via dragging-to-the-finder, or by stealing them 
from

MM's private ~/Library/ directory) and then have EagleFiler
translate/collate them into an .mbox archive for long term storage.  
As
long as that will work for folders of ~ 1000 messages at a time (and 
will

preserve the dates, etc.), that sounds fine.


I tried both the EF bundle method and dragging to the Finder.  The EF 
bundle
method was painfully slow, though that was not helped by EagleFiler 
generating

a notification for every single message.  I tried turning that off in
System Preferences / Notifications but they still kept on coming.  I've 
just
discovered an Esoteric Preference for that, but the documentation 
doesn't seem

to match the behaviour I saw.

In contrast, 3,800 messages went into EF via dragging in about 6 
minutes.


However, I ran into a real show stopper for me - EF doesn't support 
UTF-8.


From "DefaultMessageEncoding" at
http://c-command.com/eaglefiler/manual#esoteric-preferences

"When a message doesn’t specify which text encoding it uses, 
EagleFiler has
to guess. An incorrect guess may cause the message to display using 
strange
accents or garbage characters. By default EagleFiler guesses MacRoman, 
but

you can change it to guess ISO Latin 1 instead."

I have a load of mails in German where each and every accented character
gets mangled by EF. E.g. "Freundliche Grüsse" (~=Regards) displays in 
EF as

"Freundliche Gr=FCsse", and it's a similar disaster with other accented
characters.

Try exporting the following to EF to see what I mean:

Here's some unicode:

"☺", "☻", "✌", "✍", "✎", "✉", "☀", "☃", "☁", "☂", 
"★", "☆", "☮", "☯", "〠", "☎", "☏", "♕", "❏", "☐", 
"☑", "☒", "✓", "✗", "¢", "€", "£", "❤", "❣", "❦", 
"♣", "♤", "♥", "♦", "♧", "►", "❝", "❞", "☜", "☝", 
"☞", "☟", "☚", "☛", "☹", "త", "☣", "☠"

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Re: [MlMt] Local email archiving status/options?

[Muster Hans]

On 26 Aug 2015, at 1:33, Brian Scholl wrote:

Clearly there are plenty of workarounds to try for local-only 
archiving, so
I'll make something work.  I'm still hesitant to try any of the local 
IMAP
server options (and I have great server-side SPAM handling already 
through

my university), but it sounds to me like my best bet for creating a
long-term-storage archive might just be to export .eml files directly 
from
MM (via the EF bundle, via dragging-to-the-finder, or by stealing them 
from

MM's private ~/Library/ directory) and then have EagleFiler
translate/collate them into an .mbox archive for long term storage.  
As
long as that will work for folders of ~ 1000 messages at a time (and 
will

preserve the dates, etc.), that sounds fine.


I tried both the EF bundle method and dragging to the Finder.  The EF 
bundle
method was painfully slow, though that was not helped by EagleFiler 
generating

a notification for every single message.  I tried turning that off in
System Preferences / Notifications but they still kept on coming.  I've 
just
discovered an Esoteric Preference for that, but the documentation 
doesn't seem

to match the behaviour I saw.

In contrast, 3,800 messages went into EF via dragging in about 6 
minutes.


However, I ran into a real show stopper for me - EF doesn't support 
UTF-8.


From "DefaultMessageEncoding" at
http://c-command.com/eaglefiler/manual#esoteric-preferences

"When a message doesn’t specify which text encoding it uses, 
EagleFiler has
to guess. An incorrect guess may cause the message to display using 
strange
accents or garbage characters. By default EagleFiler guesses MacRoman, 
but

you can change it to guess ISO Latin 1 instead."

I have a load of mails in German where each and every accented character
gets mangled by EF. E.g. "Freundliche Grüsse" (~=Regards) displays in 
EF as

"Freundliche Gr=FCsse", and it's a similar disaster with other accented
characters.

Try exporting the following to EF to see what I mean:

Here's some unicode:

"☺", "☻", "✌", "✍", "✎", "✉", "☀", "☃", "☁", "☂", 
"★", "☆", "☮", "☯", "〠", "☎", "☏", "♕", "❏", "☐", 
"☑", "☒", "✓", "✗", "¢", "€", "£", "❤", "❣", "❦", 
"♣", "♤", "♥", "♦", "♧", "►", "❝", "❞", "☜", "☝", 
"☞", "☟", "☚", "☛", "☹", "త", "☣", "☠"

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Re: [MlMt] Local email archiving status/options?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 26 Aug 2015, at 1:33, Brian Scholl wrote:

(And I'm also glad to learn from Bill Cole about the formail shell 
option
to produce the .mbox file directly; I'll play with the date stuff and 
see

how close I can get with that too.)


Try out the new Export bundle if you go down this path.

But I do hold out some hope that maybe we can still convince Benny to 
just
hold his nose and provide an IMAP-folder-to-.mbox command in MM 
itself.


Well, the `formail` command meant I did not have to deal with the `mbox` 
format myself.



Maybe this will happen if we all just keep politely asking for this --
especially if we intimate that otherwise we will be using Mail.app as 
a MM
utility, and/or that we will be poking around in MM's local files 
despite

the warnings?


:-)


Bill Cole wrote:
As someone who has retained email for 20+ years including a 
substantial
spam corpus (it's a professional focus) I share the desire for a 
local,

integrated, purely private, and reliable mail archive.


That seems like another great example.  Benny, would you really just
recommend that Bill keep 20 years of SPAM online?  (I'm worried that 
the

answer will just be an enthusiastic 'yes!', but that seems like an
unacceptable option to me.)


My answer is that I don't recommend that, but this is a special case and 
Bill is able to work around this limitation of MailMate. As Bill notes 
MailMate can use quite a lot of resources when used for very large 
message stores. Even though I have reports of more than 1 million emails 
handled by MailMate I didn't design MailMate for this use case.


I really do believe most users should stick to a clean IMAP setup 
(myself included). I don't want to make it too easy to avoid that, but 
I'm aware that I cannot prevent users from working around this 
limitation and as you have seen I also answer questions related to it.


--
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Re: [MlMt] Local email archiving status/options?

[David O'Donnell]

On 27 Aug 2015, at 8:29, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:

In the latest test version I've included a bundle named “Export” 
which uses the `formail` trick described by Bill Cole to create an 
mbox file. It has a setting which can be used to specify a destination 
folder (see the “Command ▸ Export” menu). If the destination is 
the Desktop and you archive an email located in “Archive/2013” in 
an account named “My Account” then it would result in the email 
being appended to this file:


~/Desktop/My Account/Archive/2013.mbox

That is, if it works as expected. In theory, you could select all 
emails in an account and have them exported to mbox-files; one mbox 
file for each mailbox. (I don't know how this actually performs since 
I haven't tried.)


Benny,

You are awesome! Thank you, thank you, thank you for this function! It 
works perfectly with learnspam and now I can shelve Apple Mail forever.


FWIW, selecting all the mail in my “Junk” top-level folder and 
running the export command on it produces one file inside a folder for 
each account, which is quite sufficient for my needs.


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Re: [MlMt] edit unsent message in outbound always creates copy

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 25 Aug 2015, at 12:34, Max Rydahl Andersen wrote:

On 25 Aug 2015, at 11:58, Benny Kjær Nielsen 
 wrote:



On 25 Aug 2015, at 11:15, Max Rydahl Andersen wrote:

I asked this before but it keeps failing ;/

Any message in outbound only provide "Edit as new message" that 
creates a copy instead

of just letting me edit the outbound message.


(I'll check how hard this is to fix.)


Great :)


The latest test version should improve on this. Let me know if it still 
fails for you or if you get unexpected duplicates.


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Re: [MlMt] Local email archiving status/options?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 25 Aug 2015, at 23:59, Bill Cole wrote:

Isn't mbox great: one always has to specify a particular tool's 
flavor...


Yes, this is why I've been reluctant with respect to implementing mbox 
export. Thanks for the `formail` trick. Now I can just blame an external 
utility.


(Tangent: Senior mail admins are insanely over-represented on this 
mailing list.)


Maybe they are the only ones still using mailing lists. I'm still 
considering alternatives which include a web interface. In particular, 
[GroupServer](http://groupserver.org) and 
[Groups.io](https://groups.io/static/features).


Another approach I've played with but not really exercised hard is a 
zombie "IMAP Account" permanently offline as a local archive. The 
connection settings don't work and never have, but I can create 
folders and subfolders and MM creates the directories just as it would 
for a normal account. Benny has vaguely warned that this might not be 
a reliable approach, but I think that's only because it has no backend 
and ultimately would be lost if MM decided its local cache of messages 
was not to be trusted.


Yes, also the fact that moving a message from an online account to an 
offline account doesn't work as the user might expect. MailMate is very 
strict about not deleting anything from a source account until **after** 
the destination is synchronized (the message is uploaded). This never 
happens for an offline IMAP account.



Tags may not work also...


They work, but are also lost if the MailMate database is corrupted. This 
might be improved when I finally get around to mapping tags to OS X file 
metadata.


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Re: [MlMt] Local email archiving status/options?

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 25 Aug 2015, at 19:26, Paul Hoffman wrote:

A big +1 for a new feature of right-click-on-mailbox -> "Export This 
Mailbox" with at least .mbox as one of the output formats. I'm fine if 
that is the only output format, but maildir would be useful as well.


In the latest test version I've included a bundle named “Export” 
which uses the `formail` trick described by Bill Cole to create an mbox 
file. It has a setting which can be used to specify a destination folder 
(see the “Command ▸ Export” menu). If the destination is the 
Desktop and you archive an email located in “Archive/2013” in an 
account named “My Account” then it would result in the email being 
appended to this file:


~/Desktop/My Account/Archive/2013.mbox

That is, if it works as expected. In theory, you could select all emails 
in an account and have them exported to mbox-files; one mbox file for 
each mailbox. (I don't know how this actually performs since I haven't 
tried.)


The bundle can be used as a starting point if you want to do something 
more advanced.


--
Benny
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