Re: [MlMt] Updating account information made MailMate (re)download *all* email

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 24 Jul 2017, at 23:34, Adam Liter wrote:

FWIW, the sluggishness seems to be triggered by talking to the 
FastMail servers. I quit MailMate and reopened in order to be able to 
compose the email that I just sent. As soon as it started sending, 
MailMate became really sluggish. As I write this email, it takes about 
two-three seconds for each keystroke to register, sometimes longer.


I think that's because MailMate is looking for emails which have 
mysteriously gone away. (Deleting emails in the database is distributed 
over time and therefore this can go on for a long time if a lot of 
emails have disappeared from disk.)



On 24 Jul 2017, at 17:30, Adam Liter wrote:

About a year later, I finally got around to setting up 2FA with 
FastMail and using app specific passwords. Because of the experiences 
that others mentioned in this thread, I ended up deleting my previous 
FastMail IMAP account in MailMate as well as deleting the messages in 
`~/Library/Application Support/MailMate/Messages/IMAP/`.


You shouldn't have done that last part. Never let anything but MailMate 
remove or add any files in the `Messages` folder. It is to be considered 
to be a private database which is just saved in a very readable 
format/hierarchy.


I'm probably going to reinstall MailMate and see if starting fresh 
helps, as mentioned in this thread.


That's unfortunately also the only way to fix it now. You can keep the 
`.plist` files to make it easier (in `~/Library/Application 
Support/MailMate/`).


However, I wanted mention this in case there's anything I could do to 
help debug this, Benny, while I'm still experiencing the problem.


Thanks!

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Re: [MlMt] Updating account information made MailMate (re)download *all* email

[Adam Liter]

Now, it looks like this should be ok with FastMail, but then it seems 
something else happened. The redownloading of emails indicate that 
the `UIDVALIDITY` value changed of each mailbox. Each email is 
uniquely identified using the `UIDVALIDITY` of the mailbox and the 
`UID` of the message. If the `UIDVALIDITY` value of a mailbox changes 
then MailMate MUST delete its local cache of emails and then fetch 
the “new” messages of the mailbox. There is no way to tell 
MailMate to ignore `UIDVALIDITY` changes.


Hmm, MailMate should also warn you when the latter happens which 
makes me think that this might be a MailMate bug after all. I have a 
FastMail test account and I'll note to test what happens when I do as 
you describe. Sorry about the inconvenience if this turns out to be a 
bug.




I did not see any other warnings besides that first one.


For what it's worth (probably not much), this just happened to me with 
iOS Mail. I updated to iOS 10 last night. So perhaps it is more of a 
FastMail problem, rather than a MailMate problem? Note that I haven't 
set up 2FA with FastMail, however. So I'm not really sure how 
helpful/relevant this anecdote is.


-Adam
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Re: [MlMt] Updating account information made MailMate (re)download *all* email

[Sherif Soliman]

On 1 Aug 2016, at 6:01, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:


On 28 Jul 2016, at 2:37, Sherif Soliman wrote:

[FastMail issues]

What I chose to do is to start with a fresh install of MailMate. I 
kept a copy of my keybindings file and `Tags.plist`, removed 
everything else, and set everything up from scratch. I haven't had 
any issues since.


I'm glad it works given that I didn't provide much help. Thanks for 
the updates (and warning for other users).


Now, I'll try to analyze what happened.

You wrote:

I put in the new password and changed the server names from the old 
`mail.messagingengine.com` to `.fastmail.com`.


I'm pretty sure MailMate displays a warning at this point. This is 
because you have to be absolutely sure that MailMate is still looking 
at the exact same account. Otherwise, the mapping between local emails 
and server emails might be incorrect which could, e.g., lead to 
deleting a message locally which maps to a different message on the 
server. (This is not very likely to happen due to what follows below, 
but some servers have a somewhat primitive use of `UIDVALIDITY` often 
reusing values between user accounts.)




Yes, I remember seeing that warning. I read its meaning as you just 
described it: make sure this is the same account as it was before 
because if MailMate authenticates and finds different messages than what 
it had before, it will download them and delete the old ones, and 
generally do whatever it needs to do to reflect the new reality it finds 
on that server.


Now, it looks like this should be ok with FastMail, but then it seems 
something else happened. The redownloading of emails indicate that the 
`UIDVALIDITY` value changed of each mailbox. Each email is uniquely 
identified using the `UIDVALIDITY` of the mailbox and the `UID` of the 
message. If the `UIDVALIDITY` value of a mailbox changes then MailMate 
MUST delete its local cache of emails and then fetch the “new” 
messages of the mailbox. There is no way to tell MailMate to ignore 
`UIDVALIDITY` changes.


Hmm, MailMate should also warn you when the latter happens which makes 
me think that this might be a MailMate bug after all. I have a 
FastMail test account and I'll note to test what happens when I do as 
you describe. Sorry about the inconvenience if this turns out to be a 
bug.




I did not see any other warnings besides that first one.

Sherif
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Re: [MlMt] Updating account information made MailMate (re)download *all* email

[Benny Kjær Nielsen]

On 28 Jul 2016, at 2:37, Sherif Soliman wrote:

[FastMail issues]

What I chose to do is to start with a fresh install of MailMate. I 
kept a copy of my keybindings file and `Tags.plist`, removed 
everything else, and set everything up from scratch. I haven't had any 
issues since.


I'm glad it works given that I didn't provide much help. Thanks for the 
updates (and warning for other users).


Now, I'll try to analyze what happened.

You wrote:

I put in the new password and changed the server names from the old 
`mail.messagingengine.com` to `.fastmail.com`.


I'm pretty sure MailMate displays a warning at this point. This is 
because you have to be absolutely sure that MailMate is still looking at 
the exact same account. Otherwise, the mapping between local emails and 
server emails might be incorrect which could, e.g., lead to deleting a 
message locally which maps to a different message on the server. (This 
is not very likely to happen due to what follows below, but some servers 
have a somewhat primitive use of `UIDVALIDITY` often reusing values 
between user accounts.)


Now, it looks like this should be ok with FastMail, but then it seems 
something else happened. The redownloading of emails indicate that the 
`UIDVALIDITY` value changed of each mailbox. Each email is uniquely 
identified using the `UIDVALIDITY` of the mailbox and the `UID` of the 
message. If the `UIDVALIDITY` value of a mailbox changes then MailMate 
MUST delete its local cache of emails and then fetch the “new” 
messages of the mailbox. There is no way to tell MailMate to ignore 
`UIDVALIDITY` changes.


Hmm, MailMate should also warn you when the latter happens which makes 
me think that this might be a MailMate bug after all. I have a FastMail 
test account and I'll note to test what happens when I do as you 
describe. Sorry about the inconvenience if this turns out to be a bug.


--
Benny
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Re: [MlMt] Updating account information made MailMate (re)download *all* email

[Guy Boanas]

On 28 Jul 2016, at 10:37, Sherif Soliman wrote:


On 27 Jul 2016, at 0:50, Guy Boanas wrote:


I am having a similar problem with the FastMail connection (for a few
days) via Mailmate. Help appreciated.



What I chose to do is to start with a fresh install of MailMate. I 
kept a copy of my keybindings file and `Tags.plist`, removed 
everything else, and set everything up from scratch. I haven't had any 
issues since.


That's a drastic solution though, and you may not want to do this 
depending on your connection speed and bandwidth, and level of 
customization (although there are ways to [copy those over][files]). 
If it's not a major problem, you could wait to hear back from Benny.


[files]: https://lists.freron.com/mailmate/2016-July/006483.html

That said, I am happy to report that it took very little time to 
re-configure everything to the way it was. I'm not nearly as much a 
power user of MailMate's intense features as some are on this list, 
but I have keybindings, tags, my preferred default columns and layout, 
and settings. It took a few minutes to get MailMate set up the way I 
like it, downloading emails aside.


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Yes, I’m doing something similar and it is now working. Perhaps part 
of the problem is that the Fastmail screenshot of the Mailmate account 
settings is different (no pwd field) from that of Mailmate itself. When 
prompted for the password you will need to enter in the Fastmail 
‘app’ password you will have set up -  - 
and ask for it to be saved to your Mac’s keychain (prompting occurs 
for both map and smtp accounts).


I could go on but won’t

g
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Re: [MlMt] Updating account information made MailMate (re)download *all* email

[Sherif Soliman]

On 27 Jul 2016, at 0:50, Guy Boanas wrote:


I am having a similar problem with the FastMail connection (for a few
days) via Mailmate. Help appreciated.



What I chose to do is to start with a fresh install of MailMate. I kept 
a copy of my keybindings file and `Tags.plist`, removed everything else, 
and set everything up from scratch. I haven't had any issues since.


That's a drastic solution though, and you may not want to do this 
depending on your connection speed and bandwidth, and level of 
customization (although there are ways to [copy those over][files]). If 
it's not a major problem, you could wait to hear back from Benny.


[files]: https://lists.freron.com/mailmate/2016-July/006483.html

That said, I am happy to report that it took very little time to 
re-configure everything to the way it was. I'm not nearly as much a 
power user of MailMate's intense features as some are on this list, but 
I have keybindings, tags, my preferred default columns and layout, and 
settings. It took a few minutes to get MailMate set up the way I like 
it, downloading emails aside.


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Re: [MlMt] Updating account information made MailMate (re)download *all* email

[Guy Boanas]

I am having a similar problem with the FastMail connection (for a few
days) via Mailmate. Help appreciated.

-- 
 g

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Re: [MlMt] Updating account information made MailMate (re)download *all* email

[Sherif Soliman]

On Tue, Jul 26, 2016, at 06:15 PM, Sherif Soliman wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2016, at 05:09 PM, Sherif Soliman wrote:
> > This happened on the MailMate BETA, but I don't know if it's limited to 
> > it or can happen in the stable version.
> > 
> > I use FastMail and they recently made some security upgrades[1], which 
> > include two factor authentication (2FA), app-specific passwords, and new 
> > imap and smtp server names.
> > 
> > [1]: 
> > https://blog.fastmail.com/2016/07/25/two-step-verification-and-other-new-security-features/
> > 
> > Once you enable 2FA on FastMail, you *have* to generate app-specific 
> > passwords. I generated a new password for MailMate to use, and went to 
> > update the account information by right clicking on it in the list of 
> > sources.
> > 
> > I put in the new password and changed the server names from the old 
> > `mail.messagingengine.com` to `.fastmail.com`.
> > 
> > What happened afterwards is that MailMate re-downloaded my entire email 
> > content from FastMail. I know because I use Little Snitch and I could 
> > see that MailMate used the same amount of bandwidth down as my used 
> > space on FastMail.
> > 
> > It also reset some of the mailboxes that have "types". For example, I 
> > had to re-tell MailMate which folder to use for Sent Messages, and which 
> > one to use for Junk, and Trash.
> > 
> > I don't know if that's expected behaviour or not. It could be a really 
> > expensive download for some people (I have the speed and bandwidth to 
> > spare, so I'm good).
> > 
> > If it is unexpected but intended, is there a way to make it not happen?
> > 
> > If it is unavoidable for whatever reason, then this is a PSA to people 
> > that this could happen, so if you plan on making changes to server names 
> > and can wait for a time when you don't need your network or have free 
> > bandwidth, you should do that.
> > 
> 
> (apologies for the duplicate email - not sure what happened)
> 
> And now MailMate is extremely sluggish in starting up, and will often freeze 
> on startup. The duplicate message happened as it struggled with this cycle.
> 

Finally, try as I might to stop it from doing so, MailMate sends my sent mail 
to "Sent-Items-1" instead of the Sent folder I instruct it to use.

I will likely start fresh tonight.

Sherif
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Re: [MlMt] Updating account information made MailMate (re)download *all* email

[Sherif Soliman]

On Tue, Jul 26, 2016, at 05:09 PM, Sherif Soliman wrote:
> This happened on the MailMate BETA, but I don't know if it's limited to 
> it or can happen in the stable version.
> 
> I use FastMail and they recently made some security upgrades[1], which 
> include two factor authentication (2FA), app-specific passwords, and new 
> imap and smtp server names.
> 
> [1]: 
> https://blog.fastmail.com/2016/07/25/two-step-verification-and-other-new-security-features/
> 
> Once you enable 2FA on FastMail, you *have* to generate app-specific 
> passwords. I generated a new password for MailMate to use, and went to 
> update the account information by right clicking on it in the list of 
> sources.
> 
> I put in the new password and changed the server names from the old 
> `mail.messagingengine.com` to `.fastmail.com`.
> 
> What happened afterwards is that MailMate re-downloaded my entire email 
> content from FastMail. I know because I use Little Snitch and I could 
> see that MailMate used the same amount of bandwidth down as my used 
> space on FastMail.
> 
> It also reset some of the mailboxes that have "types". For example, I 
> had to re-tell MailMate which folder to use for Sent Messages, and which 
> one to use for Junk, and Trash.
> 
> I don't know if that's expected behaviour or not. It could be a really 
> expensive download for some people (I have the speed and bandwidth to 
> spare, so I'm good).
> 
> If it is unexpected but intended, is there a way to make it not happen?
> 
> If it is unavoidable for whatever reason, then this is a PSA to people 
> that this could happen, so if you plan on making changes to server names 
> and can wait for a time when you don't need your network or have free 
> bandwidth, you should do that.
> 

(apologies for the duplicate email - not sure what happened)

And now MailMate is extremely sluggish in starting up, and will often freeze on 
startup. The duplicate message happened as it struggled with this cycle.

Sherif
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[MlMt] Updating account information made MailMate (re)download *all* email

[Sherif Soliman]

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[MlMt] Updating account information made MailMate (re)download *all* email

[Sherif Soliman]

This happened on the MailMate BETA, but I don't know if it's limited to 
it or can happen in the stable version.


I use FastMail and they recently made some security upgrades[1], which 
include two factor authentication (2FA), app-specific passwords, and new 
imap and smtp server names.


[1]: 
https://blog.fastmail.com/2016/07/25/two-step-verification-and-other-new-security-features/


Once you enable 2FA on FastMail, you *have* to generate app-specific 
passwords. I generated a new password for MailMate to use, and went to 
update the account information by right clicking on it in the list of 
sources.


I put in the new password and changed the server names from the old 
`mail.messagingengine.com` to `.fastmail.com`.


What happened afterwards is that MailMate re-downloaded my entire email 
content from FastMail. I know because I use Little Snitch and I could 
see that MailMate used the same amount of bandwidth down as my used 
space on FastMail.


It also reset some of the mailboxes that have "types". For example, I 
had to re-tell MailMate which folder to use for Sent Messages, and which 
one to use for Junk, and Trash.


I don't know if that's expected behaviour or not. It could be a really 
expensive download for some people (I have the speed and bandwidth to 
spare, so I'm good).


If it is unexpected but intended, is there a way to make it not happen?

If it is unavoidable for whatever reason, then this is a PSA to people 
that this could happen, so if you plan on making changes to server names 
and can wait for a time when you don't need your network or have free 
bandwidth, you should do that.


Sherif
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