Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-08-01 Thread Benny Kjær Nielsen

On 25 Jul 2016, at 13:55, Patrik Fältström wrote:


On 25 Jul 2016, at 11:54, Mike Brasch wrote:

As long a syncing mechanism uses local folders for syncing (like 
Dropbox, Bittorrent Sync and some others) MailMate could copy the 
relevant data to such a folder. This way users can use their 
preferred syncing service.


+1

MailMate should be able to detect whether the file has changed, and in 
that case re-read its new configuration, and when saving, it just 
saves the new config waiting for the service to propagate it to other 
units.


I'll just end this thread with a couple of comments:

* The discussion quickly turned into “which cloud service”, but this 
is just a technicality (and I still think IMAP itself is the best 
choice). The challenge is not how to synchronize the mailboxes file, 
it's how to gracefully handle any order and timing of changes to this 
file on multiple machines.
* The above file oriented behavior, as described by Patrik, is 
essentially what is needed for synchronization to work.


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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-25 Thread Howard Wettstein

Thanks.
Howie

On 24 Jul 2016, at 23:04, Max Rydahl Andersen wrote:


On 24 Jul 2016, at 17:46, Howard Wettstein wrote:

I meant: what will this accomplish vis-a-vis getting the same stuff 
on the target machine. Will (source machine’s) smart mailboxes now 
show up? If not, what does this accomplish?


One of the files are:

```
Mailboxes.plist (smart mailboxes and various mailbox related settings)
```

So yes, smart mailboxes will show up on the new mailmate you run on 
the machine you copy these files too.


About what it does: it simply copies the configuration files mailmate 
uses and thus you avoid having to manually setup things.


/max


Howie

On 24 Jul 2016, at 8:43, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:


On 24 Jul 2016, at 17:38, Howard Wettstein wrote:

No rush on this, but remind me what gets copied by copying these 
files. What will show up on the target machine?


	Mailboxes.plist (smart mailboxes and various mailbox related 
settings)

Tags.plist (tag names and their mappings to IMAP keywords)
Signatures.plist
Sources.plist (IMAP related settings)
Submission.plist (SMTP related settings)
	Identities.plist (email identities, that is, names and email 
addresses/patterns)


The last 3 files should always be copied together. All files are 
readable plain text.


--
Benny
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/max
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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-25 Thread John D. Muccigrosso

On 24 Jul 2016, at 11:16, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:


On 21 Jul 2016, at 23:14, John D. Muccigrosso wrote:


On 21 Jul 2016, at 6:21, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:




On 21 Jul 2016, at 12:05, Alain Israel wrote:



I agree, this is probably one of the only weak points of MM. 
However based on my experience with other applications, this is 
definitively not a trivial issue, and it is certainly dependent on 
the IMAP server.




Why couldn’t MM store smart-mailbox info in iCloud?


The problem is not where to store, but how to synchronize what is 
stored between MailMate installs. Currently MailMate cannot even 
detect changes made to the file storing smart mailboxes. A relaunch is 
needed when editing it manually.


Using iCloud to store is also an unnecessary complication when IMAP is 
already known/configured and available for shared storage (and 
potentially cross-platform although that is not relevant in this 
case).


Yes, but Apple encourages use of iCloud for such things, doesn’t it? 
And it doesn’t involves the manipulation of IMAP for non-mail stuff.


Personally I wouldn’t much mind if it were DropBox instead of iCloud, 
but I think iCloud is a bit more user-friendly and doesn’t require any 
special subscriptions. Many non-savvy users use iCloud already.


John
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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-25 Thread Patrik Fältström
On 25 Jul 2016, at 11:54, Mike Brasch wrote:

> As long a syncing mechanism uses local folders for syncing (like Dropbox, 
> Bittorrent Sync and some others) MailMate could copy the relevant data to 
> such a folder. This way users can use their preferred syncing service.

+1

MailMate should be able to detect whether the file has changed, and in that 
case re-read its new configuration, and when saving, it just saves the new 
config waiting for the service to propagate it to other units.

   paf


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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-25 Thread Mike Brasch

On 25 Jul 2016, at 11:19, Robert Brenstein wrote:

He would be better off to work only with iCloud since every Mac users 
has access there or set up his own service tailored to his needs.


I never used iCloud and I have no intention to ever change this. I 
prefer more "generic" ways of syncing. Currently I use Bittorrent Sync 
and Dropbox (for me it is "generic" enough as it is available for many 
platforms).


As long a syncing mechanism uses local folders for syncing (like 
Dropbox, Bittorrent Sync and some others) MailMate could copy the 
relevant data to such a folder. This way users can use their preferred 
syncing service.


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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-25 Thread Robert Brenstein

On 24.07.2016 at 21:37 Uhr +0200 Roberto Thiella apparently wrote:

But why not using the dropbox feature in order to sync?



Dropbox was implicitly included in "whatever cloud service users 
have". Dropbox is not the only game in town. Many people would prefer 
to use iCloud, some ownCloud, some Google or Amazon Cloud or whatever 
else. If Benny goes that route, he would have to support access to at 
least a selection of major players. That would be a lot os effort and 
complications, me thinks. He would be better off to work only with 
iCloud since every Mac users has access there or set up his own 
service tailored to his needs.


Robert
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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-24 Thread Max Rydahl Andersen

On 24 Jul 2016, at 17:46, Howard Wettstein wrote:

I meant: what will this accomplish vis-a-vis getting the same stuff on 
the target machine. Will (source machine’s) smart mailboxes now show 
up? If not, what does this accomplish?


One of the files are:

```
Mailboxes.plist (smart mailboxes and various mailbox related settings)
```

So yes, smart mailboxes will show up on the new mailmate you run on the 
machine you copy these files too.


About what it does: it simply copies the configuration files mailmate 
uses and thus you avoid having to manually setup things.


/max


Howie

On 24 Jul 2016, at 8:43, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:


On 24 Jul 2016, at 17:38, Howard Wettstein wrote:

No rush on this, but remind me what gets copied by copying these 
files. What will show up on the target machine?


	Mailboxes.plist (smart mailboxes and various mailbox related 
settings)

Tags.plist (tag names and their mappings to IMAP keywords)
Signatures.plist
Sources.plist (IMAP related settings)
Submission.plist (SMTP related settings)
	Identities.plist (email identities, that is, names and email 
addresses/patterns)


The last 3 files should always be copied together. All files are 
readable plain text.


--
Benny
(On vacation, please be patient.)
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/max
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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-24 Thread Roberto Thiella

On 24 Jul 2016, at 18:33, Robert Brenstein wrote:


On 24.07.2016 at 17:16 Uhr +0200 Benny Kjær Nielsen apparently wrote:

On 21 Jul 2016, at 23:14, John D. Muccigrosso wrote:


Why couldn't MM store smart-mailbox info in iCloud?


The problem is not where to store, but how to synchronize what is 
stored between MailMate installs. Currently MailMate cannot even 
detect changes made to the file storing smart mailboxes. A relaunch 
is needed when editing it manually.


Using iCloud to store is also an unnecessary complication when IMAP 
is already known/configured and available for shared storage (and 
potentially cross-platform although that is not relevant in this 
case).




Mailmate does sync mailboxes on a schedule and could use the same 
procedure to sync settings. Manual changing of local files behind the 
back of mailmate is something different. Mailmate could avoid relaunch 
by adding a menu item to reload settings, essentially doing part of 
the startup procedure upon user request, although I do not see a real 
problem with having to relaunch the program in this case.


When using IMAP server to sync and I use let's say 8 different IMAP 
sources, how would MailMate choose which IMAP server to use to sync? 
IMAP is meant for mail handling and even syncing tags seems to have 
limiations. Using cloud, I believe, would be a better and cleaner 
solution and keep mail data and operational organization separate. You 
would need to decide, Benny, whether to support whatever cloud service 
users have (which can indeed add complications) or you can run your 
own central service to handle syncing. Personally, I would opt for the 
latter since you then control the technology. It could even involve a 
small annual fee. The syncing could be manually controlled by users 
since they know when to sync to cloud up and down, although automatic 
sync would be nicer (I just saw that working nicely with KeyShade).


Robert
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But why not using the dropbox feature in order to sync?

—
Roberto

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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-24 Thread Robert Brenstein

On 24.07.2016 at 17:16 Uhr +0200 Benny Kjær Nielsen apparently wrote:

On 21 Jul 2016, at 23:14, John D. Muccigrosso wrote:


Why couldn't MM store smart-mailbox info in iCloud?


The problem is not where to store, but how to 
synchronize what is stored between MailMate 
installs. Currently MailMate cannot even detect 
changes made to the file storing smart 
mailboxes. A relaunch is needed when editing it 
manually.


Using iCloud to store is also an unnecessary 
complication when IMAP is already 
known/configured and available for shared 
storage (and potentially cross-platform although 
that is not relevant in this case).




Mailmate does sync mailboxes on a schedule and 
could use the same procedure to sync settings. 
Manual changing of local files behind the back of 
mailmate is something different. Mailmate could 
avoid relaunch by adding a menu item to reload 
settings, essentially doing part of the startup 
procedure upon user request, although I do not 
see a real problem with having to relaunch the 
program in this case.


When using IMAP server to sync and I use let's 
say 8 different IMAP sources, how would MailMate 
choose which IMAP server to use to sync? IMAP is 
meant for mail handling and even syncing tags 
seems to have limiations. Using cloud, I believe, 
would be a better and cleaner solution and keep 
mail data and operational organization separate. 
You would need to decide, Benny, whether to 
support whatever cloud service users have (which 
can indeed add complications) or you can run your 
own central service to handle syncing. 
Personally, I would opt for the latter since you 
then control the technology. It could even 
involve a small annual fee. The syncing could be 
manually controlled by users since they know when 
to sync to cloud up and down, although automatic 
sync would be nicer (I just saw that working 
nicely with KeyShade).


Robert
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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-24 Thread Howard Wettstein

yes, thanks.
Enjoy.
Howie


On 24 Jul 2016, at 8:50, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:


On 24 Jul 2016, at 17:46, Howard Wettstein wrote:

I meant: what will this accomplish vis-a-vis getting the same stuff 
on the target machine. Will (source machine’s) smart mailboxes now 
show up? If not, what does this accomplish?


	Mailboxes.plist (smart mailboxes and various mailbox related 
settings)


Yes, as noted, smart mailboxes are part of this file. When launching 
MailMate on the destination machine then they should show up. But 
there is no synchronization involved here. If you change anything on 1 
machine then it's not reflected on the other machine. In other words, 
this is a manual way to move some settings from 1 machine to another 
machine.


I hope that answers your question.

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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-24 Thread Benny Kjær Nielsen

On 24 Jul 2016, at 17:46, Howard Wettstein wrote:

I meant: what will this accomplish vis-a-vis getting the same stuff on 
the target machine. Will (source machine’s) smart mailboxes now show 
up? If not, what does this accomplish?


	Mailboxes.plist (smart mailboxes and various mailbox related 
settings)


Yes, as noted, smart mailboxes are part of this file. When launching 
MailMate on the destination machine then they should show up. But there 
is no synchronization involved here. If you change anything on 1 machine 
then it's not reflected on the other machine. In other words, this is a 
manual way to move some settings from 1 machine to another machine.


I hope that answers your question.

--
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(On vacation, please be patient.)
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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-24 Thread Howard Wettstein
I meant: what will this accomplish vis-a-vis getting the same stuff on 
the target machine. Will (source machine’s) smart mailboxes now show 
up? If not, what does this accomplish?

Howie


On 24 Jul 2016, at 8:43, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:


On 24 Jul 2016, at 17:38, Howard Wettstein wrote:

No rush on this, but remind me what gets copied by copying these 
files. What will show up on the target machine?


	Mailboxes.plist (smart mailboxes and various mailbox related 
settings)

Tags.plist (tag names and their mappings to IMAP keywords)
Signatures.plist
Sources.plist (IMAP related settings)
Submission.plist (SMTP related settings)
	Identities.plist (email identities, that is, names and email 
addresses/patterns)


The last 3 files should always be copied together. All files are 
readable plain text.


--
Benny
(On vacation, please be patient.)
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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-24 Thread Benny Kjær Nielsen

On 24 Jul 2016, at 17:38, Howard Wettstein wrote:

No rush on this, but remind me what gets copied by copying these 
files. What will show up on the target machine?


Mailboxes.plist (smart mailboxes and various mailbox related settings)
Tags.plist (tag names and their mappings to IMAP keywords)
Signatures.plist
Sources.plist (IMAP related settings)
Submission.plist (SMTP related settings)
	Identities.plist (email identities, that is, names and email 
addresses/patterns)


The last 3 files should always be copied together. All files are 
readable plain text.


--
Benny
(On vacation, please be patient.)
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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-24 Thread Howard Wettstein
No rush on this, but remind me what gets copied by copying these files. 
What will show up on the target machine?

Happy vacation I hope.
Howie


On 24 Jul 2016, at 8:26, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:


On 22 Jul 2016, at 6:20, Volker Kopetzky wrote:


+1 for the export/import user story. From my side that would suffice:


This is already possible although a manual process. Simply quit 
MailMate on both source and target machine and copy these files:


	~/Library/Application Support/MailMate/Mailboxes.plist (smart 
mailboxes and various mailbox related settings)

~/Library/Application Support/MailMate/Tags.plist
~/Library/Application Support/MailMate/Signatures.plist

The files named `Sources/Submission/Identities` can also be copied if 
starting from scratch on the destination machine.


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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-24 Thread Benny Kjær Nielsen

On 21 Jul 2016, at 23:14, John D. Muccigrosso wrote:


On 21 Jul 2016, at 6:21, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:


On 21 Jul 2016, at 12:05, Alain Israel wrote:

I agree, this is probably one of the only weak points of MM. However 
based on my experience with other applications, this is definitively 
not a trivial issue, and it is certainly dependent on the IMAP 
server.


Why couldn’t MM store smart-mailbox info in iCloud?


The problem is not where to store, but how to synchronize what is stored 
between MailMate installs. Currently MailMate cannot even detect changes 
made to the file storing smart mailboxes. A relaunch is needed when 
editing it manually.


Using iCloud to store is also an unnecessary complication when IMAP is 
already known/configured and available for shared storage (and 
potentially cross-platform although that is not relevant in this case).


--
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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-24 Thread Benny Kjær Nielsen

On 22 Jul 2016, at 6:20, Volker Kopetzky wrote:


+1 for the export/import user story. From my side that would suffice:


This is already possible although a manual process. Simply quit MailMate 
on both source and target machine and copy these files:


	~/Library/Application Support/MailMate/Mailboxes.plist (smart mailboxes 
and various mailbox related settings)

~/Library/Application Support/MailMate/Tags.plist
~/Library/Application Support/MailMate/Signatures.plist

The files named `Sources/Submission/Identities` can also be copied if 
starting from scratch on the destination machine.


--
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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-21 Thread Volker Kopetzky

+1 for the export/import user story. From my side that would suffice:

1. export mailbox configuration on desktop
2. copy one file over to laptop
3. import mailbox configuration into laptop
  - overwrite mailbox settings
 - mailboxes
 - Conditions
 - Submailbox settings
 - Rules
  - ? import tags (if tags have internal IDs, they could also be 
overwritten?)
  - ? how to handle a mailbox that exists on the target but not in the 
source?



On 22 Jul 2016, at 9:12, Steven M. Bellovin wrote:


On 21 Jul 2016, at 6:21, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:


On 21 Jul 2016, at 12:05, Alain Israel wrote:

I agree, this is probably one of the only weak points of MM. However 
based on my experience with other applications, this is definitively 
not a trivial issue, and it is certainly dependent on the IMAP 
server.


To be clear, a solution would involve some kind of private 
“message” within an IMAP folder on an IMAP server (as also seen 
with other email clients). This could of course be hidden by 
MailMate, but it would be visible in other email clients -- annoying 
but necessary. There is no standardized way to do these things via 
IMAP. This also means that IMAP server bugs are not likely to be a 
major issue.


Any chance of an interim solution involving generating a tar file that 
can then be imported elsewhere?


--Steve Bellovin, https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb


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Beste Grüße | kind regards,
Volker Kopetzky
*Senior Tech, Consulting and Stuff*
[![aservo](cid:FA9357BA-454E-49A6-8C0E-555717DA2DF3)](http://www.aservo.com/)

```ASERVO Software GmbH```
```Konrad-Zuse-Platz 8```
```81829 München```

```phone   +49.6809.2163.30```
```phone   +66.86.143.77.27```
```skype   volker.kopetzky```
```email   vkopet...@aservo.com```
```whttp://aservo.com```
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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-21 Thread Steven M. Bellovin

On 21 Jul 2016, at 6:21, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:


On 21 Jul 2016, at 12:05, Alain Israel wrote:

I agree, this is probably one of the only weak points of MM. However 
based on my experience with other applications, this is definitively 
not a trivial issue, and it is certainly dependent on the IMAP 
server.


To be clear, a solution would involve some kind of private 
“message” within an IMAP folder on an IMAP server (as also seen 
with other email clients). This could of course be hidden by MailMate, 
but it would be visible in other email clients -- annoying but 
necessary. There is no standardized way to do these things via IMAP. 
This also means that IMAP server bugs are not likely to be a major 
issue.


Any chance of an interim solution involving generating a tar file that 
can then be imported elsewhere?


--Steve Bellovin, https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb


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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-21 Thread John D. Muccigrosso

On 21 Jul 2016, at 6:21, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:


On 21 Jul 2016, at 12:05, Alain Israel wrote:

I agree, this is probably one of the only weak points of MM. However 
based on my experience with other applications, this is definitively 
not a trivial issue, and it is certainly dependent on the IMAP 
server.


To be clear, a solution would involve some kind of private 
“message” within an IMAP folder on an IMAP server (as also seen 
with other email clients). This could of course be hidden by MailMate, 
but it would be visible in other email clients -- annoying but 
necessary. There is no standardized way to do these things via IMAP. 
This also means that IMAP server bugs are not likely to be a major 
issue.


Benny, in one of your previous emails, you mentioned that the lack of 
tag syncing (meaning I have to re-tag by hand dozens of emails each 
time I change computer) coudl be somehow debugged. Is this correct?


Certainly, but maybe best done off list. Write me an email via “Help 
▸ Send Feedback” and describe a (short) set of steps needed to 
reproduce the issue. Note that if it's an Exchange server then it's a 
known issue. Exchange does not support custom IMAP keywords.


Why couldn’t MM store smart-mailbox info in iCloud?

John
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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-21 Thread Benny Kjær Nielsen

On 21 Jul 2016, at 12:05, Alain Israel wrote:

I agree, this is probably one of the only weak points of MM. However 
based on my experience with other applications, this is definitively 
not a trivial issue, and it is certainly dependent on the IMAP server.


To be clear, a solution would involve some kind of private “message” 
within an IMAP folder on an IMAP server (as also seen with other email 
clients). This could of course be hidden by MailMate, but it would be 
visible in other email clients -- annoying but necessary. There is no 
standardized way to do these things via IMAP. This also means that IMAP 
server bugs are not likely to be a major issue.


Benny, in one of your previous emails, you mentioned that the lack of 
tag syncing (meaning I have to re-tag by hand dozens of emails each 
time I change computer) coudl be somehow debugged. Is this correct?


Certainly, but maybe best done off list. Write me an email via “Help 
▸ Send Feedback” and describe a (short) set of steps needed to 
reproduce the issue. Note that if it's an Exchange server then it's a 
known issue. Exchange does not support custom IMAP keywords.


--
Benny
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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-21 Thread Alain Israel
I agree, this is probably one of the only weak points of MM. However 
based on my experience with other applications, this is definitively not 
a trivial issue, and it is certainly dependent on the IMAP server. 
Benny, in one of your previous emails, you mentioned that the lack of 
tag syncing (meaning I have to re-tag by hand dozens of emails each time 
I change computer) coudl be somehow debugged. Is this correct?

Alain

On 21 Jul 2016, at 11:47, Benny Kjær Nielsen wrote:


On 20 Jul 2016, at 16:27, Marc ARC wrote:


On 18 Jul 2016, at 5:30, Howard Wettstein wrote:

I’d like to run MM on my 3 machines: home, office and laptop. As I 
configure increasingly many smart folders on my home (main) machine 
, it becomes a headache to reconfigure to other two to match. It 
would be great if there was a way to update the other machines.


I’m sure that Benny has this still on his list since it has been 
asked in the past.


I do, but I've also made no progress on it :|

It's one of those features which sounds simply in theory, but in 
practice there is likely to be all kinds of tricky synchronization 
issues. I really should revisit it though, particularly for the 
purpose of smart mailboxes and tags.


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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-21 Thread Benny Kjær Nielsen

On 20 Jul 2016, at 16:27, Marc ARC wrote:


On 18 Jul 2016, at 5:30, Howard Wettstein wrote:

I’d like to run MM on my 3 machines: home, office and laptop. As I 
configure increasingly many smart folders on my home (main) machine , 
it becomes a headache to reconfigure to other two to match. It would 
be great if there was a way to update the other machines.


I’m sure that Benny has this still on his list since it has been 
asked in the past.


I do, but I've also made no progress on it :|

It's one of those features which sounds simply in theory, but in 
practice there is likely to be all kinds of tricky synchronization 
issues. I really should revisit it though, particularly for the purpose 
of smart mailboxes and tags.


--
Benny
(On vacation, please be patient.)
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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-20 Thread Marc ARC

Howard,

I’m sure that Benny has this still on his list since it has been asked 
in the past.


Cheers

Marc

On 18 Jul 2016, at 5:30, Howard Wettstein wrote:

I’d like to run MM on my 3 machines: home, office and laptop. As I 
configure increasingly many smart folders on my home (main) machine , 
it becomes a headache to reconfigure to other two to match. It would 
be great if there was a way to update the other machines.


Thanks.
Howie
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Re: [MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-20 Thread Alexandre Takacs

On 18 Jul 2016, at 5:30, Howard Wettstein wrote:

I’d like to run MM on my 3 machines: home, office and laptop. As I 
configure increasingly many smart folders on my home (main) machine , 
it becomes a headache to reconfigure to other two to match. It would 
be great if there was a way to update the other machines.


I could certainly see this a useful.

A. Takacs
Augicom SA
+41 (22) 301 16 00
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[MlMt] enhancement, I think

2016-07-17 Thread Howard Wettstein
I’d like to run MM on my 3 machines: home, office and laptop. As I 
configure increasingly many smart folders on my home (main) machine , it 
becomes a headache to reconfigure to other two to match. It would be 
great if there was a way to update the other machines.


Thanks.
Howie
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